I don't see how naming 'Clasm or Massacre with Meddling Mage is gonna solve the problem. Considering Gifts can dig faster than Fish and find another answer. Which, would be the other.
What kind of tutors are you thinking of? Gifting for Massacre with a Meddling Mage naming "Pyroclasm" isn't really an option if Fish has Tormod's Crypt in play. Gifting for anything period isn't an option either with True Believer on the table, since Gifts requires a target player to choose the cards. If you really want to fetch out an Underground and blow Demonic on a Massacre, then the Mage has more than done its job. Merchant Scroll for Mystical Tutor and then Mystical for Massacre is an even bigger leech on this superb card advantage Gifts supposedly has every single game.
You're always gonna assume that you have certain creatures out? Which by your assumption negate whatever Wrath effect is being cast. Sure, Vial does get around this, but even then, Gifts can still find an answer before Tendrils. Oath only works during your upkeep and yeilds you one creature.
I think if a deck runs multiple 4-of's and you want to discuss the match-up, it's pretty important to consider analyses where those 4-of's make appearances. It would be pretty silly to talk about a game one v. Gifts and imagine that Gifts never draws, for instance, a Mana Drain.
Also, Oath of Ghouls yields one creature every turn, which is a huge difference from simply Regrowing only one creature. No one would play it if it were a one-shot deal.
You fail to realize, 'Clasm and Massacre preclude the game ending...that turn. That's at least how I always roll. In which case, most of all your 'answers' don't seem to hurt the Gifts player, unless they directly impede me from going broken.
I am well aware that Gifts prefers to save its Wrath effects for the turn it goes off. I think what you might be missing here is that going off against a Fish player with seven cards in hand and an AEther Vial @ 2 (and whatever else) on the table just isn't a prudent plan.
Oh, but, if you have a Vial out, I still have tons of mana and tons of cards advantage.
And yet it's somehow "[unfair]" to assume that a Fish player would have a single Meddling Mage in play...
So, when I cast Wrath, I don't see anything short of a timely creature stopping the chain before a Tendrils. Even against Null Rod Fish, Wrath still means game over in almost every case.
I think you have the Fish builds mixed up. Null Rod Fish is the deck with the more difficult recovery from Pyroclasm/Massacre, not Vial Fish.
But, I would love to know why when I state something about a Wrath effect, you have some sort of "answer" on the top of your head. I mean you cannot possibly assume that you'll have every creature that could possibly hurt me out when I cast Wrath. Could you elaborate on that?
Well, quite simply, Fish has answers and techniques to address your hate cards, just as you have responses and techniques for their hate pieces. There's no mystery about it.
Stormscape Apprentice, Dark Confidant, Ninja, Isamaru, Savannah Lions... All of which, cause no out-right disruption against Gifts. Sure you could argue that "Confidant and Ninja draw cards..."
Again, I think this comes down to the difference between Null Rod Fish and Vial Fish, which you acknowledged earlier having little to no experience playing against. I don't know anyone that runs Savannah Lions or Isamaru, Hound of Konda in Vial Fish. Those cards are as far outside the scope of what Vial Fish is trying to accomplish as Goblin Welder and Zur's Weirding would be in Gifts.
Stormscape is minor disruption against the Tinker plan. Sure, you can Time Walk twice (which is why I don't run Stormscape, because he's too easy to work around) but it can be an unnecessary hassle.
As for Ninja and Dark Confidant, they don't present any "disruption" by themselves but they fetch it. And they fetch it fast. I don't know a single Drain player (besides you?) who would let their opponent sit on a Dark Confidant or Ninja of the Deep Hours for the whole early game. Why anyone would want Fish to be drawing tons of counters, Stifles, True Believers, Duresses, Vials, Strip Mine, Time Walk, etc. is beyond me.
No. I said disruption. Since I see the cards with Confidant I can play around them. Ninja doesn't bottleneck my mana, nor does he net you anymore card advantage than Gifts can.
Your logic here escapes me. You're saying "I am fine with Fish having a Swords to Plowshares, a Force of Will, and a Duress in hand because I know they're there, so I'll play just around them." I think a more plausible line of thinking would be "I'd rather Fish not have them in hand in the first place."
What? Grunt is a huge clock, how do you even side them out. That puzzles me.
Because Vial Fish isn't about a clock like Null Rod Fish is. Again, some background in the extreme differences between Vial Fish and Null Rod Fish would be helpful to your perspective here.
Well, I only really worry about good creatures. That crosses half that list off.
Every single creature listed there is great in the Gifts match-up, particularly with a Vial build. I can't persuade you any further though, given that you have stated several times that you don't mind Fish drawing lots and lots of cards.
Welder, Bounce, and Apprentice don't directly hurt Gifts. I see no reason how.
Hmmm, I suspect there's an 11/11 monster in your deck that would disagree with you here. He probably does not want to be bounced after a Tinker or Welded into a Mox Pearl.
Wayfarer? Seeing how you don't consider Wastelands/Strip good against Gifts, I don't see how Wayfarer is a threat.
If you don't counter him then you find out firsthand why he's a threat. Library of Alexandria, Bazaar of Baghdad, and a post-Tinker Maze of Ith are just the tip of the iceberg.
Ninja and Bob draw cards. And you have to draw cards that directly stop me from going off. Otherwise, I still see what Bob draws for you and Gifts draws more cards than Fish could ever dream of drawing.
Interesting...
Or I know how to beat Fish. Beating a hate deck isn't exactly new. Seeing how the hate deck needs to draw just the right cards to win. My experience isn't exactly a new one.
Ok. It's possible you have a specialized knowledge of Fish, which most other Gifts experts are lacking, that enables you to consistently succeed every time you play it. If that's the case, you should consider writing an article.
-BPK
