Serum Powder Ichorid and Vintage

[TurbulentDirge]

I was not literally stating that the deck and board of that specific build of Stax are going to be the reasons why this deck is going to be checked in Vintage. I was saying, in a colloquial, vernacular, every day, conversational way, that there is a lot of hate that can be played against Ichorid to shut it down/severely hinder it. I only brought it up because I had played a game where all those cards were relevant to the opponents deck.

I can't possibly be the only person to think that is the kind of impact Ichorid is putting on the format.

This quote being in reference to a list of cards played by Stax. Stax is not playing those cards because of Ichorid. Ichorid has, as far as I can see, had zero impact on people's choice of maindeck or sideboard cards; the hatred was there to begin with.

Stax can do *this.*
Gifts/Long can win earlier/disrupt.
Fish can adapt their sideboard with *examples of <12 cards*.
Bomberman is a tough match-up.
Control Slaver is a tough match-up.
Ichorid is not broken thus does not call for restriction of one or two cards.

All true, but again, I was not saying that Stax is the sole reason that Ichorid will not utterly dominate.

-DL

[hitman]

I've been testing Ichorid for a while (since these threads started popping up) and the top tier decks have good game against Ichorid.  The only 2-3 decks that have a hard time game one are Long Variants, Gifts, and Stax.  Post sideboard, Gifts and Stax are in really good shape (to be honest, I haven't tested Long decks post sideboard).  I've tested Fish vs. Ichorid a lot and Fish (Vial UWB) isn't bad game one.  Stormscape Apprentice, Swords to Plowshares, and Jotun Grunt with a never ending graveyard give Ichorid a hard time.  Force of Will or Voidmage the Dread Return and Fish should be fine.  With Vial Fish, you can't destroy the hand as well because they respond by putting the threat into play with instant effects.  They also play 4-5 strip effects.  In the Slaver match I either draw into the Tormod's or tutor for it and hold it so the Ichorid player over extends himself.  Bounce or counter the Chalice and blow up the graveyard.  If they slow play, I can establish the lock on them off 1 Gifts.  Bomberman is just brutal.  Good Bomberman players shouldn't lose to Ichorid the majority of the time unless Ichorid plays Null Rod but even then you have to get past 2/4 blockers with counters for Dread Returns.   Ichorid is a solid deck but other posts are accurate when they say it's easily hated out with very little effort.  Type one lives off artifacts and the graveyard so there are already several answers to Ichorid and if a strictly graveyard deck ever got anywhere near dominant ,which it can't, all people would have to do is maybe add 1-2 more sideboard cards generally speaking.  That or improve their game play.  I admit that decks with very linear game plans are hurt the most by Ichorid because it's easy to break up their game plan with hand destruction and mana denial but most of the top decks aren't Gifts or Long.   

[AJFirst]

You just have to know how to hate it, and do it. I agree, it's a stupid deck to play and to play against. I was playing against cookie the other day and it's really stupid.

Not only was it not fun, but it involved very little skill. Yes, this is a problem in vintage, but it will die out just like the first time Ichorid hit the scene (even though that build sucked monkey nuts compared to the new ones). The surprise factor is good, but eventually people realize it's easy to hate and play against it, and it starts losing more and more until it dies out for the most part.

Caltrops doesn't do it because Sutured Ghoul's huge.

Ensnaring Bridge doesn't do it because sometimes it's hard to get down to 3 cards, let alone stay there (especially against a deck that doesn't play spells. It also costs 3.

Waste/Strip don't do it cause they still get an activation out of bazaar, and it doesn't get the second one. It also sets YOU back a land drop which is hard for some decks since it is kind of a race.

Pithing Needle is alright, but if you're on the draw they still get to use it once. It's also extremely Ancient Grudge-able. It's tough because you want to board counters out since they don't cast stuff, but you need it to protect your hate. Probably just pull out the drains and keep in forces for the decks that play'em.

Tormod's Crypt seems to be the best answer. If you play one, even though you're starting with 6 cards it should buy you enough time to race. If you get two you're in good shape. The problem with this is the 'grudge eot, bazaar infy'. Again, keeping certain counters in might be essential just to protect your hate (And for Dread Returns). There's also the problem of Chalice of the Void. Again, pitch counters and prayer.

3-4 Crypts and 2-3 Needles. That's 5-7 slots, but a lot of people are playing crypts already for old Ichorid, Dark Rits, and Slaver and a few play Needles for Welders, Vials, Bazaars, and Wastelands already. It'll take a few more slots now that the builds are more broken, but it's all about proper metagaming.
-AJ

[policehq]

Ensnaring Bridge doesn't do it because sometimes it's hard to get down to 3 cards, let alone stay there (especially against a deck that doesn't play spells. It also costs 3.

Waste/Strip don't do it cause they still get an activation out of bazaar, and it doesn't get the second one. It also sets YOU back a land drop which is hard for some decks since it is kind of a race.

Pithing Needle is alright, but if you're on the draw they still get to use it once. It's also extremely Ancient Grudge-able. It's tough because you want to board counters out since they don't cast stuff, but you need it to protect your hate. Probably just pull out the drains and keep in forces for the decks that play'em.

I disagree with your statements on Ensnaring Bridge and Wasteland/Strip Mine but am less concerned with Pithing Needle now that I have maindeck Ancient Grudge + Riftstone Portal.

Ensnaring Bridge limits you to winning only with Nether Shadows, Ichorids, and possibly Ashen Ghoul. This can happen quickly but is greatly assisted by reanimating Laquatus's Champion, which is great but most likely only playable in Putrid Imp/Ashen Ghoul versions. The 3cc is irrelevant since Control Slaver can bring it in after a Mana Drain on anything, and the card is probably more often seen with Mishra's Workshop. The reason Balance is so broken in Stax is the quick dumping of the hand.

Wasteland and Strip Mine in Stax, Fish, and Slaver (Strip Mine) are less hurtful than Oath of Druids and Gifts (Strip Mine) because the latter two decks put a lot more pressure on you to perform better than Gigapede or Putrid Imp allow without another Bazaar of Baghdad, and unfortunately you can't rely on drawing another Bazaar instead of Dredging.

I think that mana-less versions of Ichorid will be outdated very soon, and Serum Powder/mulliganing to Bazaar of Baghdad is your first priority, but playskill comes in when you take a look at what you're removing (copies of Sutured Ghoul, Dragon Breath, Laquatus's Champion, one-of's, Trolls/Ichorids, etc.) and learning game-plans that involve a turn 1 with a hand of 4-5 cards and you have to Cabal Therapy or Unmask yourself. It's not the best plan, but neither is mulliganing to 1 Bazaar of Baghdad + 0-3 cards.

Mulliganing into a Bazaar of Baghdad also isn't your only concern. An opening hand containing a Bazaar of Baghdad is not always the best option to keep if it is too heavy on the Dredge side with no disruption or vice versa. In particular, the best thing to go for is a Dredge creature and a Bazaar of Baghdad, and you can mulligan your first two hands (even if they contain Bazaar of Baghdad) to try and obtain this.

Also, while I used to think that Ichorid required very little skill, I think I would disagree now that I've been testing different versions of it non-stop since Dread Return was spoiled, and I've gotten much better with the different builds and different scenarios.

-hq

[Gabethebabe]

Many workshop decks (i.e. MUD) are easier to play than Ichorid and can still just "win" without having done anything more difficult than "count your mana and drop permanents" every turn.

[Chiz]

Control Slaver is a tough match-up.

Why everyone is saying that? Just play maindeck 2-3 Ancient Grudge and 4 post board and you will find it a good matchup... Anyway that's what I find!

There is something lots of people does not understand: Somethimes Raw power and speed <  Having anwser

I think that's the case with Ichorids since you can be hated easily...

[yespuhyren]

I just played Stax on MWS with Ichorid, and in 2 post-board games, Jester showed me why I don't win those two games against that deck.

4 Bridge
4 Shard
4 Crypt
4 Chalice
3 Null Brooch
4 (not 1) Duplicant MAINDECK
ZERO Triskelion
Wasteland
Strip Mine
Trinisphere
B-Ring
Crucible

And THAT, ladies and gentleman, is why Ichorid will be checked in Vintage. I won game 1 no sweat; he even killed Bazaar. Games 2 and 3 I was severely locked.

-DL

Hell yeah.  I haven't lost a g2/3 against ichorid with this list.  Its SAVAGE

That's a really bad sideboard.

If everyone had to devote 12 cards in their sideboard to Ichorid, the deck wouldn't be checked by the sideboards any longer but by Wizards.

That deck would not be competitive against enough other top decks for Ichorid to be concerned.

-hq

O RLY?  For some reason I have a feeling my deck is very competitive, as many people on this site would tell you.  Lets see my SB:

4x Ensnaring Bridge: Good against Fish, Gobbos, Oath, Ichorid, Shop aggro
4x Granite Shard:  Good against Oath, Confidants, Welders, Ichorid, Fish
4x Tormod's Crypt:  Good against Combo, Ichorid, Dragon

If you think that its only against Ichorid, then you are sadly mistaken. 

[Smmenen]

This issue is bubbling up in the thread in my article about Skill, but suffice to say, I disagree wholeheartedly with almost everything said in the first post.   I've revived this thread so that that discussion can be ported here. 

I think that what Ichorid does is wipe the slate clean in Vintage.   It helps us clear out the debris -- what Shumpter called "Creative destruction."

I think it will enhance skill in Vintage, ultimately.   And enhance Vintage.

Ichorid is Great for Vintage.  Think about the deck: no power, no duals, can be built cheaply for everything but Bazaars.

The fundamental flaw in Vintage has been, imo, not that it is too expensive, but that it is too hard to play.   The esoteric knowledge required to perform well in Vintage puts the bar so high.    Here is a deck that can be cheaply built that beats the best decks in Vintage.

How is that not a great thing?

Will people be upset?  Hell yes.

Think about: people over the last few years have invested there time and energy into playing the formats staples and mastering them.   Now here is a deck that just up and wins - even in the hands of "weaker" players.

But here's the thing: it's the same argument that Keeper players made.   

I ask: who, really, is the inferior player?

I contend that deck choice and deck design are huge skils.   If Ichorid is in the field and you lose to it repeatedly, you may have great skill in game.  But metagame, deck selection, and deck design are areas in which you have not risen to the occasion. 

Anyway, I'm doing my part in promoting Ichorid because I believe in it.   
 
But I'm beginning to see the contours of what Vintage will look like down the road, and it is my view that really it isn't so much that decks will change.  I think what will change is how we play the game.   I know that this is an enigmatic comment, but I think you'll see what I"m saying. 

[ErkBek]

Ichorid is Great for Vintage.  Think about the deck: no power, no duals, can be built cheaply for everything but Bazaars.

The fundamental flaw in Vintage has been, imo, not that it is too expensive, but that it is too hard to play.   The esoteric knowledge required to perform well in Vintage puts the bar so high.    Here is a deck that can be cheaply built that beats the best decks in Vintage.

How is that not a great thing?

You don't think new players will get frustrated with vintage by simply losing to a hate card? or do you think that getting to the first tournament will pull them further into the format?

[Smmenen]

Think about it: if you are a smart ichorid player, your post board game becomes this game: beat Needle, Crypt, and Leyline.   If that is your entire focus, it shouldn't be that hard.   

[Xiphoid]

I think Ichorid is good for the format. Hopefully, it'll attract newer players and give them a deck to play that's not too difficult. The smarter new Ichorid players will also understand that their deck can be severely handicapped by hate cards and will either prepare for it or just accept that fact and hope they get lucky games 2 and 3. The newer players' ego's will be boosted after winning game 1, and then games 2 and 3 the more experienced player can win. 

Ichorid is doing what very few decks in Vintage have/can do: It's lowering the entrance curve of T1 by making it less intimidating and cheaper.

[zeus-online]

I have not played a match against ichorid, yet.
But, a match where i cannot use my playskill to affect the outcome is obscene! Its against all the reason that i play type 1 to start with.

/Zeus

[Pern]

But, a match where i cannot use my playskill to affect the outcome is obscene!

How much of your playskill is involved
when your opponent Tinkers up the Big Stupid Tin Guy turn one,
or opens with Workshop, 3Sphere?
It's not obscene, it's integral to the format.
Those things will happen.

Also, as Brother Smmnnmmnn so aptly pointed out,
deck selection and construction are part of your playskills.

[dicemanx]

Think about it: if you are a smart ichorid player, your post board game becomes this game: beat Needle, Crypt, and Leyline.   If that is your entire focus, it shouldn't be that hard.   

These hate cards have been addressed by Ichorid SBs for a while, at least as far as the discussions went on this site and on SCG. However, fighting past that hate, even if you have the tools, is quite difficult. Ichorid has no draw engine, no tutoring, and very, very little mana to work with. All it can depend on is mass redundancy in its answers, but even then resolving an answer is almost like pulling off a 3 card combo - ie not very easy at all.

The way that Ichorid has a fighting chance post SB is almost purely through the numbers - hope that the opponent doesn't hit a devastating hate card early enough (no opening leyline even after mulling, or pre-empting a Crypt via CotV, or having the opponent just not draw a Crypt etc)

[Implacable]

But, a match where i cannot use my playskill to affect the outcome is obscene!

How much of your playskill is involved
when your opponent Tinkers up the Big Stupid Tin Guy turn one,
or opens with Workshop, 3Sphere?
It's not obscene, it's integral to the format.
Those things will happen.

Also, as Brother Smmnnmmnn so aptly pointed out,
deck selection and construction are part of your playskills.

A play that takes no skill != a game that takes no skill.  Getting out of situations where your opponent has more broken plays is in fact an apt description for the entire format.  Situations that are impossible from the beginning are why cards get restricted.

[meadbert]

I have not played a match against ichorid, yet.
But, a match where i cannot use my playskill to affect the outcome is obscene! Its against all the reason that i play type 1 to start with.

/Zeus

Manaless Ichorid won't win till turn 3 at the earliest and probably won't win till turn 4.  That gives you plenty of time to use your playskill to win the match.

Meandeck Gifts has just as fast a goldfish ~3..5 and runs just as many disrupting cards: 10 counters + 2 bounce = 12.

[unknown.root]

Manaless Ichorid won't win till turn 3 at the earliest and probably won't win till turn 4.  That gives you plenty of time to use your playskill to win the match.

Well I've tested the hell out of this matchup with a variety of decks and the damn thing goes off ALOT turn 3. Dredge decks are about math, it's that simple &  It's a hard deck to beat game one.

[zeus-online]

But, a match where i cannot use my playskill to affect the outcome is obscene!

How much of your playskill is involved
when your opponent Tinkers up the Big Stupid Tin Guy turn one,
or opens with Workshop, 3Sphere?
It's not obscene, it's integral to the format.
Those things will happen.

Also, as Brother Smmnnmmnn so aptly pointed out,
deck selection and construction are part of your playskills.

big stupid guy can be bounced and raced....my only option seems to be to race ichorid, most decks can't answer it game one.
And also, if you're comparing it to restricted cards, then dosn't that seem like the deck might be a problem?

I know most decks try to avoid interacting with the opponent, but if this deck has succeeded in doing so, then i think its a huge problem for the format.

Another thing...if you guys think playskill is merely the ability to pilot your own deck perfectly, then you're definetly wrong.

/Zeus

[Implacable]

Meandeck Gifts < Manaless Ichorid.
It's a 95% matchup, simple as that.  Ichorid cannot  lose Game 1, barring MDG going off turn 1 on the play, which is, to be polite, somewhat unlikely.  MDG has 10 dead cards (God forbid that you MisD Unmask.  It's a good way to lose Turn 2 instead of Turn 3).  Games 2 and 3, if MDG doesn't have Leyline, are just about the same; you just straight-up lose to their absurd disruption and 30/30 Haste guy.  I urge people to test this matchup before talking about how people's reactions are out-of-line and hyperbolic; it really is just as stupid as the most alarmist posts in this thread say.

[meadbert]

It is not 95-5.  I would say 75-25 is more accurate game 1.  Games 2/3 and in Meandeck Gifts favor.

Gifts has close to no dead cards in the matchup.

Misdirectoin can misdirect Dread Return to Golgari Thug or a Nether Shadow that is coming back out anyway.

The Tinker->DSC plan is very viable.  If manaless Ichorid does not drop Leyline or Chalice on turn 1 then you should be able to goldfish fast enough.

Between games where Manaless Ichorid does not get disruption and the games you can pull of turn 1 and turn 2 Tinkers you should get some wins.

[zeus-online]

Urh, how can you say that games 2 and 3 are favorable? You can't possibly know every MDG sideboard...just pointing it out!

A standard gift list has around 10-11 counters, which are more or less, dead. besides that it has the win cards which are basicly dead in all match-ups...and recoup...which adds up to about 25% of the deck being dead...thats alot.
Also, depending on which kind of disruption comes out turn 1 from the ichorid player, more cards might be dead.

If ichorid goldfishes turn 3, as some claim, then tinker-DSC is only viable turn 1, or turn 2 with time walk...which is rather unlikely, atleast to my experience.

Has anyone tested if empty the warrens helps? Getting out 6-10 1/1 attackers and blockers might be usefull.

/Zeus

[meadbert]

Gifts only has a favorable post board matchup if it has a Tormod's Crypt in the sideboard.

It is fairly unlikely to Goldfish on turn 3 through counters.  Misdirection and Force of Will both stop Dread Return for a turn.

On the play a turn 1 or 2 Tinker will usually win.

On the draw only a turn 1 Tinker or turn 2 with Walk will usually win.

[unknown.root]

Misdirection and Force of Will both stop Dread Return for a turn.

With
4x Unmask
4x Cabal Therapy

Dread returns "should" get threw through.

[Chiz]

People complaint too much about Ichorid... Ichorid is a bad matchup for a lot of established decks in vintage... But you know what?? Ichorid have bad matchups! Ichorid can simply crap out facing too much hate...

Ichorid is a deck that punish unprepared people... It has a good surprise value in the last 4-5 months here, I played against unpreapared people and top8ed a lot of times with my build of Ichorid... But now, the metagame shifted, people know how to play against Ichorid (Which include mulliganing which is so much important for Ichorid AND the player facing Ichorid!) and there is a lot of hate...

So I think people should stop complaining... Your deck may have a bad matchup against Ichorid, accepte it or play something else!

[herbig]

For anyone interested, I wrote a program to determine the chance of finding Bazaar before you mulligan to zero, confirming 93%.  If you're familiar with Java, check it out:

[someone_unimportan]

I don't have too much experience in Java, but I think your program doesn't handle succesive powder mulligans. I think if you powder mulligan into a powder but no bazaar, the program will have you normal mulligan anyway. The else-if branch of (hand.contains("powder")) has no inner if-branch to include another powder. The loop won't break because found == false, and the code will proceed to the mulligan part. This is what I think would happen, anyway.

[meadbert]

someone_unimportan is correct.  If you consider successive mulligans then you should get between 94.1% and 94.2%.

[someone_unimportan]

I think a super-fast fix would be to add a conditional break (like the one after the else-if block) after the test for bazaar, and then change the "else if(hand.contains("powder"))" to "while(hand.contains("powder"))"

[herbig]

I don't have too much experience in Java, but I think your program doesn't handle succesive powder mulligans.

Yikes, you're right.  I'll get on that.

Fixed.

[meadbert]

So I think the new version will get an answer that is too high. 

I think the second "if (found) break;" line should be inside of the while statement.

Otherwise you can draw a hand with Bazaar and Serum Powder.  THen you will increment your bazaar count and Serum Powder Mulligan.

Really if you find a Bazaar then you are not going to be Serum Powder mulliganing.