Black Stax (OR the viability of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth)

[madmanmike25]

Every game I lost it was due to a ramped Smokestack. Het could lay more permanents and clear my board. In other words, this deck needs something to deal with artifacts like other Stax decks have Heretic, Seal, ...

At this moment, the best I can think of is Gate to Phyrexia (in 'combo' with Factory/CoW and Confidant). Do you people have any other options to fight the Stax match-up?

WhiteWolf

You just asked the question that has plagued mono black decks from the dawn of time:  "How does black deal with artifacts?"  Gate to Phyrexia was a card that I wanted to put in a mana-Ichorid SB but never got around to it.

If you are really having a problem with JUST an amped smokestack, you should give some serious thought into Withered Wretch.  He really neuters an opponents Crucible as well as his welder, Wretch doesnt have to tap to lay the smack down on graveyards.  Plus he adds more aggro along with your confidants which is nice in the (somewhat)mirror. 

Since I haven't had time to test black-stax yet (too busy with MUD Stax and mono R Stax), I don't know if that BB will be a problem to get him down.  If it is too hard to get, try other forms of grave hate, because in my experience Crucibles win the Smokestack wars, and if there is no land for your opponent to bring back into play you will have the advantage.

[yespuhyren]

An interesting idea as far as Gate to Phyrexia, now what you can look at is this:

Gate to Phyrexia
Crucible of Worlds
Mishra's Factory

This right here is the Crucible-Strip Mine of Artifacts.  Just activate during upkeep, use it, and replay it in main phase.

[yespuhyren]

How the HELL did we as a group forget Guardian Beast???

Gatherer Rulings:As long as Guardian Beast is untapped, noncreature artifacts you control can't be enchanted, they're indestructible, and other players can't gain control of them.

3B - 2/4

[WhiteWolf]

If you are really having a problem with JUST an amped smokestack, you should give some serious thought into Withered Wretch.  He really neuters an opponents Crucible as well as his welder, Wretch doesnt have to tap to lay the smack down on graveyards.  Plus he adds more aggro along with your confidants which is nice in the (somewhat)mirror. 

That's actually not a bad idea, although at the moment I'm going to test Leyline of the Void wich seems objectivily more powerful. The thing is, the games against my stax-wielding friend were unsideboarded so I couldn't try the Leylines yet. I most certain agree that the permanent war / ramped Smokestack comes down to CoW for a great part. Removing the graveyard seems a great step in the right direction.

An interesting idea as far as Gate to Phyrexia, now what you can look at is this:

Gate to Phyrexia
Crucible of Worlds
Mishra's Factory

This right here is the Crucible-Strip Mine of Artifacts.  Just activate during upkeep, use it, and replay it in main phase.

That's how I was seeing it too. I really think it could have potential. The fact that Gate is an enchantment is a plus (against Heretic and stuff). On top of Factories I have Confidants to sac.

How the HELL did we as a group forget Guardian Beast???

Gatherer Rulings:As long as Guardian Beast is untapped, noncreature artifacts you control can't be enchanted, they're indestructible, and other players can't gain control of them.

3B - 2/4

I found this too when looking over card lists for viable black cards to use in this deck. Wich do you think is best. The protection from Beast OR the destruction from Gate? Untested, just in theory, I prefer Gate at the moment. It can also take care of their win-conditions, CoW's and such ...

Later,

WhiteWolf

[yespuhyren]

While Gate is good utility and a good 3-4 of in the board against Stax, I would probably play 1-2 Beast MD

[WhiteWolf]

yespuhyren (and other people): are you still toying around with this deck and what does your latest deck list look like?

I found another nice win-condition / disruption (nice, not necessarily viable) to replace Braids :


Greater Harvester         2BBB

At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice a permanent.
Whenever Greater Harvester deals combat damage to a player, that player sacrifices two permanents.

5/6


A harsh (almost impossible) casting cost without Urborg but 5/6 for 5 mana is very nice and having him "connect" even once is very good, let alone two times.

WhiteWolf

[madmanmike25]

How the HELL did we as a group forget Guardian Beast???

Gatherer Rulings:As long as Guardian Beast is untapped, noncreature artifacts you control can't be enchanted, they're indestructible, and other players can't gain control of them.

3B - 2/4

Only the indestructible ability comes into play unless Memnarch.dec is made.  God help Vintage if someone enchants an artifact.  The problem is that welder can still target your artifacts.  Still the Beast (no, not Milwaukee's Best for you beer drinkers) might warrant SB inclusion.

Let me ask the black stax players this,  'Do you think Dark Confidant > Goblin Welder?'  I think the sheer crazyness of Goblin Welder is better than card draw on legs.  In testing, has the Tomb been that great?  It seems those 2 cards and Demonic/Vamp tutor are kinda what define the deck.

[yespuhyren]

Another thing that should be looked at is the vaiblility of God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai.  While never talked about statistically, with Smokestack, Crucible, and God's Eye, you can maintain a smokestack @2 without losing any permanent advantage.  I know I'm gonna test this in all stax now, not just this.  Stax@2 is just too big.

[Bob The Builder]

I'm no stacks player whatsoever.  Hell I didn't even play an actual vintage event for over (more than) a year now...  But I intend to come back to vintage soon (unfortunatly not with a stacks deck since I don't have the workshops).

I was very pleased to read this thread and after reading all the postst I put togheter a list I might tinker with next practise-session I get:

2 God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Rishadan Port
3 Mishra's Factory
4 Cabal Pit
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
3 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Tomb of Urami
7 Solomoxen
1 Mana Vault

4 Dark Confidant
2 Braid, Cabal Minion
1 Withered Wretch

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Null Rod
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
3 Nether Void
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

SB:
3 Maze of Ith
2 Gate to Phyrexia
4 Defense Grid
4 Leyline of the Void
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Wish me luck, I know I'll need it.

[WhiteWolf]

Another thing that should be looked at is the viablility of God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai.  While never talked about statistically, with Smokestack, Crucible, and God's Eye, you can maintain a smokestack @2 without losing any permanent advantage.  I know I'm gonna test this in all stax now, not just this.  Stax@2 is just too big.

God's Eye is pretty good. I used it before in a Null Rod MUD build as fodder, blocker and win. It worked great with a Smokestack and CoW on the table. Maintaining a Smokey @ 2 for the whole game is strong. It's actually not that slow when you only have a Smokestack @ 1, the tokens build every turn: 1-2-3-... Also, it's power can't be denied in the mirror. The real question is: is it better than Factory? Aside from being nice fodder, it serves the same, albeit less powerfull, functions as Factory (1/1 attacker - 2/2 attacker, 1/1 blocker - 3/3 blocker).

Let me ask the black stax players this,  'Do you think Dark Confidant > Goblin Welder?'  I think the sheer crazyness of Goblin Welder is better than card draw on legs.  In testing, has the Tomb been that great?  It seems those 2 cards and Demonic/Vamp tutor are kinda what define the deck.

I agree Welder is very good in stax but don't underestimate Confidant. It seems the best archetype to put Confidant in. Playing without Welder makes the already very powerful Chalice @ 1 play even better. On top of that Welder isn't always useful while Confidant draws whenever he's on the table. Urborg serves two major functions:

- using your Shops, Mazes, Tabernacles and especially Bazaars to produce B is very good. Something you have to test in real life.
- Urborg enables the use of powerful options like Nether Void (game over), Braids, (hardcasted) Leyline of the Void, Engineered Plague, ...

At the moment I'm testing all kind of different Black Stax versions but I'm sure the archetype, and Urborg on it's own, is very viable.

Has anybody already tried (second tier) black disruption enchantments like Desolation, Botomless Pit, ... ? Maybe even an old-school Contamination/Factory lock?

@ Bob the Builder: That list seems like a nice integration of all the ideas on this thread. Let us know how the testing went!

EDIT: added rant about Infernal Tutor

I've always been of the opinion that Infernal Tutor is one of those cards looking to be broken. I think it could be a good replacement for Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal in some versions of Black Stax. In my most recent versions I'v cut both of them. The reason is that they mainly end up as Bazaar fodder because I tend to play Chalice @ 1 asap (after Chalice @ 1 is played OR unneeded). (That's sometning funny about Stax: its' the only deck-type in wich I 'sometimes' wish spells were 1 mana more expensive because of the power of Chalice @ 1). Anyway, Vampiric and Imperial are cheaper but Infernal has the benefit (besides it's 2cc) that it puts the card directly in your hand. Honestly, my hand is always (9/10) empty when I want to play a tutor. Getting the card directly can be a huge benefit when it's a cheap threat you can play in the same turn a.k.a. Strip Mine.

I'm going to test 1 or 2 of them. Maybe it's possible to go from 3 to 2 Nether Voids because Demonic and Infernal Tutor can act as pseudo-Voids when needed and the second and third Void are dead when you have one down. The reason I want to try Infernal Tutor is because I dropped Vampiric and Imperial for the above mentioned reasons but I miss the power to tutor for bombs like Strip Mine, Trinisphere, ... Giving up that ability seems bad because it's one of the benefits that monoblack Stax has over other monocolored Stax decks like UbaStax.

WhiteWolf

[yespuhyren]

Biggest issue with Welder is that most of the reasons to play black are creatures/enchantments.  This just makes welder weaker because he can't touch any of the reasons for playing black.

The real question is: is it better than Factory? Aside from being nice fodder, it serves the same, albeit less powerfull, functions as Factory (1/1 attacker - 2/2 attacker, 1/1 blocker - 3/3 blocker).

That is like asking what would you rather have.  Girl with decent face and AMAZING body, or girl with HOT face and decent body.  Both are good, and why pick one.  I like to go with both:

Manabase for my Mono Red Stax, but this can be implemented somewhat here:

    4  Mishra's Workshop
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    3  Wasteland
    4  Mountain
    3  Barbarian Ring
    1  Tolarian Academy
    1  Strip Mine
    2  Mishra's Factory
    2  Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai

[Magnus76]

About the number of Voids in the BR-version:
I would love to run at least 3 Voids if it was possible because of mana. However, in order to maintain the consistency and solid feeling of UbaStax, I realized that it was not suitable to inflict more damage to the mana base without also damaging the basics of the deck. With the restricted amount of black mana I settled with 2 Nether Voids, which are truly amazing when they hit.

The matchup that is worsened by including 2 copies of Nether Void and no Wasteland is of course the Stax match-up. I think, however, that the RB-version might be slightly in favour against other Stax after SB compared to the MonoB version (because of Heretic and Rack&Ruin).

Regarding the lands I think that a BW-version also (in addition to Balance) have the benefit to include Flagstones of Trokair instead of God’s Eye. Together with Nether Void it makes more sense to care for your own mana than for creatures. I would rather run 4 Factory instead of God’s Eye (with the Fish-match up in mind), at least in the Welder-builds (Factory = artifact creature).

Of the other enchantments I think that Desolation shows the most potential, especially with Null Rod. Bottomless pit is also a good option, awesome with Uba or Confidant in play. Desolation shows better synergy with Nether Void, though.

What about Curse of the Cabal? It might be too bad against Drains but it has a nice effect.

[unknown.root]

I for one, am really REALLY happy that people are playing God's Eye.

If it wasn't for Factory i'd run that in my 5c stax.

[WhiteWolf]

What about Curse of the Cabal? It might be too bad against Drains but it has a nice effect.

I completely missed this card. When suspended it's like a one-way, indestructible Braids without legs. When you're afraid of counterspells you can just sac something during your upkeep to pile another two turns on the thing. I'm definitely going to try them.

Thanks for pointing it out!

EDIT: I just realized the sac-effect adds 2 time-counters instead of 1. Damn. Nevermind, both Braids and Desolation seem a lot better then.

WhiteWolf

[Bob The Builder]

@ Bob the Builder: That list seems like a nice integration of all the ideas on this thread. Let us know how the testing went!

I've solo-tested the deck against a Control Slaver build using lava dart and gorilla shaman MD.
I won 50% of the games (10) I played.

What I really miss in the deck is some more draw, but that could be my playskills in keeping the wrong hands to begin with...
I have second thoughts about Bazaar, it didn't help me out all that much.
I have now changed the rishadan port into a one-off Wasteland
Yawgmoth's Will didn't do all to bad, it even gave me back some speed after the moxmonkey ate some of my perms...  But it is not a must, I only got to put it to good use that one time, and in the end even then I don't feel it would have made a dif.

I'm new to piloting prison-decks that run smokestack, so keep in mind my testing probably contains masses of play-errors, but I still have a question about the outcome: Is it normal for a stax-deck to have these odds against CS (50%)??

[WhiteWolf]

@ yespuhyren: I agree God's Eye is really good with Smokestack but with Gate to Phyrexia as sideboard tech I rather have a "sure" creature a.k.a. 4 Factories. I could see myself actually adding 1 or 2 God's eyes in addition to 4 Factories, probably in place of Tomb of Urami.

What I really miss in the deck is some more draw, but that could be my playskills in keeping the wrong hands to begin with...
I have second thoughts about Bazaar, it didn't help me out all that much.
I have now changed the rishadan port into a one-off Wasteland
Yawgmoth's Will didn't do all to bad, it even gave me back some speed after the moxmonkey ate some of my perms...  But it is not a must, I only got to put it to good use that one time, and in the end even then I don't feel it would have made a dif.

I'm new to piloting prison-decks that run smokestack, so keep in mind my testing probably contains masses of play-errors, but I still have a question about the outcome: Is it normal for a stax-deck to have these odds against CS (50%)??

Actually I feel 4 Confidant + 4 Bazaar to be a pretty strong draw-engine. If you really want you can add 1 or more Mindstorm Crowns (nice with Bazaar) or Phyrexian Arena. Even on its own Bazaar is very powerful. I mostly dump excess lands to return (later) with Crucible. The fact that in this deck Bazaar can produce mana makes it even better.

Honestly, I didn't even test Yawgmoth's Will. It is often said this format consists of Will-decks and anti Will-decks. Stax definitely belongs in the last category.

I don't play that often against CS but from what I've seen CS is mostly a bad match-up for Stax, especially for UbaStax. CS just has "better" Welders and can protect them better. Maindeck Shaman and Lava Dart sure don't help. To me, this means your deck is pretty good  .

Could you elaborate a little on how the more unconventional card-choices tested:

- God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai
- Rishadan Port
- Tomb of Urami
- Braid, Cabal Minion
- Withered Wretch
- Nether Void
- Gate to Phyrexia

With unconventional I don't mean "bad" but just pretty unique to this deck type. It would be great to hear someone elses opinion on these cards, especially Braids.

Thanks,

WhiteWolf

[ElyasMachera]

Ancient tomb also gets a lot better with Tomb.  If you need to get past your own void it casts everything and can also just tap for a black.

I find that Braids is almost always uncastable.  Is ritual a possiblity or have I just been having bad draws?

[Bob The Builder]

Could you elaborate a little on how the more unconventional card-choices tested:

- God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai
- Rishadan Port
- Tomb of Urami
- Braid, Cabal Minion
- Withered Wretch
- Nether Void
- Gate to Phyrexia

With unconventional I don't mean "bad" but just pretty unique to this deck type. It would be great to hear someone elses opinion on these cards, especially Braids.

Thanks,

WhiteWolf

Here goes:

- God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai:  a great add, but wouldn't cut factories for this one.  It does very wel as a permanent to sac, This card is a keeper.
- Rishadan Port: Never liked this card, so this may be subjective, but I've cut this card in favor for a wasteland as stated earlier.  I didn't get to use a single Rishadan for other purposes than to tap for black mana.

- Tomb of Urami: This card won me a game all on it's own!! It's a keep.  (If you want to know I dropped two moxen  (one of them was the jet) a mana vault and a land first turn.  I dropped Tomb of Urami second turn and sacced both lands to get URAMI out with two moxen and an active vault left as manabase.  When I passed the turn after that CS threw down a hungry ape which ate my entire permanent supply but URAMI was unstoppable and swung for the win !!  (Can't even remember if I was building up a board or not (guess I wasn't))

- Braid, Cabal MinionDidn't get a single braid on the board and it hurts a lot when dark confidant shows you one of these; for those reasons I'm seriously thinking about cutting them in favor of the 4'th bazaar (haven't given up yet) or maybe night's whisper.  Hell I could even test some of the sub-par stuff in these slots.

- Withered Wretch As a singleton : NO as a metagame-call : maybe (but not one) !!.  I saw the wretch in one game and it kept weldertricks from happening till CS found the lava dart again (or was if Fire/Ice, can't be sure)

- Nether Void  ohhh yessss.  I was able to cast this one on a first turn during my testing, with black lotus and a land, followed by workshop and chalice for 1, CS never took a breath after that.  Later in the game it helps prevent shit form hitting the fan, so I love the inclusion of Nether Void, to bad you have 2 dead draws when the first copie hits the table, but with bazaar it's worth it.

- Gate to Phyrexia  This was a Sideboard card, I played my 10 games with no sideboard adjustments so I will have to get back at ya for this one later.

Bazaar is still questionalbe for me, I play my hand empty to fast for bazaar to really help out in a positive way, but I'm not giving up on the card.  If you (WhitWolf) say it's a good card in this deck, I'm willing to try it out some more to see what it does, and what I do wrong...

[WhiteWolf]

Ancient tomb also gets a lot better with Tomb.  If you need to get past your own void it casts everything and can also just tap for a black.

I find that Braids is almost always uncastable.  Is ritual a possiblity or have I just been having bad draws?

I thought of Ancient Tomb too. It really helps to power out the non-artifact stuff like Nether Void, Braids, Leyline and Engineered Plague and helps a great deal in paying Void's tax. When you're low on life you just take B from it. The problem is, what to cut? 

In my testing casting Braids wasn't that much of a problem. Of course, you don't cast her regularly in the early game but in the mid / late game I don't have a problem in producing 2BB. I don't have a problem with that because I tend to drop Braids as a finisher.

This is what I said earlier about Rituals: "In this deck Dark Ritual is probably only good on the first turn. After that you will screw your own Rituals with Sphere, Chalice @ 1, Void, ... In combo it's allright to trade a card for 3 mana but Stax really loves permanents and this version probably even more, seeing it has 7 Smokestacks."

Here goes:

- God's Eye, Gate to the Reikai:  a great add, but wouldn't cut factories for this one.  It does very wel as a permanent to sac, This card is a keeper.
- Rishadan Port: Never liked this card, so this may be subjective, but I've cut this card in favor for a wasteland as stated earlier.  I didn't get to use a single Rishadan for other purposes than to tap for black mana.

- Tomb of Urami: This card won me a game all on it's own!! It's a keep.  (If you want to know I dropped two moxen  (one of them was the jet) a mana vault and a land first turn.  I dropped Tomb of Urami second turn and sacced both lands to get URAMI out with two moxen and an active vault left as manabase.  When I passed the turn after that CS threw down a hungry ape which ate my entire permanent supply but URAMI was unstoppable and swung for the win !!  (Can't even remember if I was building up a board or not (guess I wasn't))

- Braid, Cabal MinionDidn't get a single braid on the board and it hurts a lot when dark confidant shows you one of these; for those reasons I'm seriously thinking about cutting them in favor of the 4'th bazaar (haven't given up yet) or maybe night's whisper.  Hell I could even test some of the sub-par stuff in these slots.

- Withered Wretch As a singleton : NO as a metagame-call : maybe (but not one) !!.  I saw the wretch in one game and it kept weldertricks from happening till CS found the lava dart again (or was if Fire/Ice, can't be sure)

- Nether Void  ohhh yessss.  I was able to cast this one on a first turn during my testing, with black lotus and a land, followed by workshop and chalice for 1, CS never took a breath after that.  Later in the game it helps prevent shit form hitting the fan, so I love the inclusion of Nether Void, to bad you have 2 dead draws when the first copie hits the table, but with bazaar it's worth it.

- Gate to Phyrexia  This was a Sideboard card, I played my 10 games with no sideboard adjustments so I will have to get back at ya for this one later.

Bazaar is still questionalbe for me, I play my hand empty to fast for bazaar to really help out in a positive way, but I'm not giving up on the card.  If you (WhitWolf) say it's a good card in this deck, I'm willing to try it out some more to see what it does, and what I do wrong...

Thanks for your comments. I really appreciate it! You seem to like the deck?

That's what I already thought about God's Eye: Very good utility but don't cut Factories for it. Factories are just more universal useful. I'm going to test them in place of Tomb of Urami.

Same thing about Rishadan Port. It's good but I would only add them if I already have 2-3 Waste effects.

Tomb of Urami provides black mana and is just really cool but it just "wins" and doesn't really contribute to the lock. At least you can use Factory as a blocker. Saccing all your lands to create Urami to block a horde of Fish doesn't seem right. Like I said, I'm going to cut them at the moment for God's Eye. If my black mana count gets too low I'll add them back in because they *can* steal victories like in your description.

Just like ElyasMachera you don't seem to like Braids. Could that be because you never dropped one? I agree turning it over with Confidant hurts, but the cc's in this deck are actually very friendly for Confidant (a lot of land!). I like having 6 Smokestack effects because they can actually take care of the dreaded basic (Is)land. Braids functions as a mid / late game finisher that helps sustain the lock on it's own. Also never underestimate the fact that it starts to work immediately, unlike Smokestack (a huge factor!).

I agree Wretch seems nice utility / beater but sideboarded Leylines seem much more powerful. I guess you're going to cut it?

Nether Void: right ... enough said. A lot of decks just scoop when it hits. I don't think I have lost a game (maybe one) in wich this resolved. You mention another plus of Bazaar: filtering useless / extra cards into better stuff. Sacrificing card-advantage for card-quality isn't the worst thing.

On Bazaar: it mostly goes like this. The first turns are spent dropping locks like Chalice, Rod, CoW, ... then on turn 3-4 I have some excess land(s) and/or lock(s) in my hand and I Bazaar. You keep one useful card (to play) AND replay a discarded land via CoW. Together with Confidant it turns in a great engine.

WhiteWolf

[Bob The Builder]

I agree Wretch seems nice utility / beater but sideboarded Leylines seem much more powerful. I guess you're going to cut it?

Yes, I'm cutting it I'll post my current play list further down...

On Bazaar: it mostly goes like this. The first turns are spent dropping locks like Chalice, Rod, CoW, ... then on turn 3-4 I have some excess land(s) and/or lock(s) in my hand and I Bazaar. You keep one useful card (to play) AND replay a discarded land via CoW. Together with Confidant it turns in a great engine.

There you say it: "toghether with confidant"  I think there's where I find bazaar to be a bit of a problem.  If you can't fill your hand enough, you don't get to keep the stuff it draws for you making bazaar nothing more then a swamp if you're lucky enough to have an urborg tomb out.  I'm not cutting it though, because I don't find another card usefull enough to replace it.  I mean the pain if you see a bazaar with dark confident is zero, the pain for a replacement isn't worth it for me yet.
I also have problems with going over bazaar like: "The cards I'm holding are not good enough, lets activate bazaar to replace them with stuff I can use."  If the cards you're holding aren't good enough, why did you put them in the deck?  That's what troubles me at times.  I don't want to get rid of certain cards in my hand (they're to good) and sometimes Bazaar forces me into choosing to do it anyway.  I'm not comfertable with that.


I'm not ready to say I "like" this deck.  Well I do of course but not enough to pilot it at a tournament just yet.  Now if you'll excuse me, I do like the deck enough to put it up for some more testing...   (I think about 10 games against Oath (no sb'ing))

EDIT: forgot to put up the list.

The List I'm currently testing.

4 Mishra's Factory
1 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tomb of Urami
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Cabal Pit
1 God's Eye, gate to the Reikai
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
(25!! Lands)

7 Solomoxen
1 mana Vault
4 Chalice of the Void
1 YAwgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Nether Void
4 Smokestack
1 Trinisphere
3 Nul Rod
3 Crucible of Worlds

4 Dark Confidant
2 Braids, Cabal Minion

[yespuhyren]

I just want to make sure people realize I don't even care about the creature half of God's Eye 99% of the time.  The whole point is to ramp smokey to 2.

[Bob The Builder]

I just want to make sure people realize I don't even care about the creature half of God's Eye 99% of the time.  The whole point is to ramp smokey to 2.

I realize that, and that's exactly what I've been using God's Eye for.  Can't remember a game where I actually attacked with a creature from god's eye...  Just sac the land and then the creature.

[yespuhyren]

You can't sac land then creature it is simultaneous.  What you have to do is this:

Smokey @ 1 - Sac Land, Creature comes into play.  Replay God's Eye
Ramp Smokey to 2 - Every turn sac creature from turn before, God's Eye (making a creature for next turn) then replay God's Eye

[Spacebalzz]

As, for the past 4 years, I've been simply a reader and not a contribibuter to the site, I don't post often; however, as I've taken much interest in this deck (actually calling my old play group and seeing if I can come test), I will enter my thoughts as follows:

-How does this deck beat long or even gifts, or any other combo based deck?  Does it rely on early Trini, Void, Crucible Lock or Chalice?  I found that most of my buddies decks (of the aforementioned variety) are packing some sort of bounce (i.e. chain of vapor) maindeck or at least sideboard making games difficult to win.  Moreover, all Gifts decks are packing FOW, which tends to deal easily with these early threats.  I feel like the Black Stax lacks answers to these decks or, answers aside, any way of winning 2 of 3 games.

-Generally, over the past year, there has been much discussion regarding the viability of smokestack in vintage.  An obvious example of this is the rise of the "Staxless" Stax deck.  I remember one specific post even noting (paraphrased) that Smokestack is weak due to the fact that it does not take immediate effect, taking nearly a turn and a half to gain potency.  If this is true, why not run more Braids?  He hits the opponent NEXT turn.  I know he's legendary, but he's much better than Smokestack.

-I know this thread is about the viability of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, but I don't truly understand what black spells this deck gives you access to besides tutors, duress and/or Extirpate in the side (both of which I've found less than worthwhile) and the aforementioned Braids.  One would almost think you could make a Blue Stax deck which would be just  as viable with Ancestral, Walk, and Intuitions (hell, even gifts).  Following this thought, I feel like the Mono-Red Uba-Stax deck, being discussed in another thread is much more viable.

That being said I'm going to bed.  I apologize if I've repeated any aforementioned material, stepped on anyone's toes (if you said it first, its cool, I'll admit you had the Dawson's Creek trapper keeper before me), or used the word "aforementioned" to much (It's what you get holmes!).

Good day sirs,

-Matt

-

[yespuhyren]

Ummmm...
Chalice
Trini
Nether Void
Null Rod

Is a hell of a lot of hate for combo.

[Enzo90910]

I just started testing the deck and currently haven't tested any matchups extensively but I have a problem with its play against storm-combo. Since disrupting it turn 1 is a priority, I aim for Calice@1+Null Rod or something artifact-based of the kind. Once I have a Null Rod in place, getting the 4 non-artifact mana to cast braids or nether void to press my advantage is very difficult, even with Urborg in hand. Maybe I'll change my mind after actually playing the deck, but it doesn't feel agressive enough after its first turn. You get the feeling that the best that could happen to you is bazaarding your braids/nether void for a Smokestack.

Comments on specific cards:
Mishra's Factory: I don't really see why you would want to play this card, and certainly not why in four. It helps you against fish, but worsens your lock speed considerably compared to, say, Ancient Tomb, which I like a lot more.

Yawgmoth's Will: Feels wrong somehow; one time allowed me to play a forced null rod again, but usually very weak.

Again, I haven't really tested the deck yet, but I like the general idea and will test it in the following days.

Also, another idea I just had: maybe swapping the 4 Shops for 4 Ancient Tombs would allow for almost the same turn one, and a slighly better turn two.

[matthewCURBSTOMP]

Mishra's Factory pretty much becomes your kill condition after a resolved Nether Void.

[Bob The Builder]

Mishra's Factory pretty much becomes your kill condition after a resolved Nether Void.

This is the reason to include the factory, I find Confidants don't kick fast enough.

You do have a point on yawgmoth's will though...

I'm curious what testing will show you when using tombs instead of workshops.  Do post back with more info after testing if you will...

@ Spacebalzz: I agree with you on one thing: This deck is very weak when key components get countered, and in vintage, Blue is a house...

[policehq]

Has anyone considered running Petrified Field in the maindeck or sideboard? It has synnergy with Bazaar, protects your important lands, and would be very helpful when you have to dig for Tabernacle against Warrens tokens.

How hurtful is it when your Urborg Tomb is Wasted? With Braids maindeck you seem very dependent on it.

Also, I like Steve's idea of playing Riftstone Portal. Balance and Crop Rotation could be great in the deck, but I don't know if the setup required is worthwhile.

-hq

[WhiteWolf]

The List I'm currently testing.

4 Mishra's Factory
1 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tomb of Urami
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Cabal Pit
1 God's Eye, gate to the Reikai
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
(25!! Lands)

7 Solomoxen
1 mana Vault
4 Chalice of the Void
1 YAwgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Nether Void
4 Smokestack
1 Trinisphere
3 Nul Rod
3 Crucible of Worlds

4 Dark Confidant
2 Braids, Cabal Minion

That list is very much like the one I'm testing at the moment.

Mine goes:

- 1 Tomb of Urami
- 1 Mana Vault
- 1 Yawgmoth's Will
- 1 Vampiric Tutor

+ 1 God's Eye
+ 2 Wasteland
+ 1 Crucible of Worlds

God's Eye utility (especially in the harsh mirror match) seems better than the 5/5 Urami (without further use than combat). Will I still don't believe in for stax. Vampiric Tutor was dropped because 9/10 it ended up as Bazaar fodder because of Chalice @ 1. I really like 4 Crucibles, especially in this deck that uses Bazaar and extra lands a lot.

-How does this deck beat long or even gifts, or any other combo based deck?  Does it rely on early Trini, Void, Crucible Lock or Chalice?  I found that most of my buddies decks (of the aforementioned variety) are packing some sort of bounce (i.e. chain of vapor) maindeck or at least sideboard making games difficult to win.  Moreover, all Gifts decks are packing FOW, which tends to deal easily with these early threats.  I feel like the Black Stax lacks answers to these decks or, answers aside, any way of winning 2 of 3 games.

-Generally, over the past year, there has been much discussion regarding the viability of smokestack in vintage.  An obvious example of this is the rise of the "Staxless" Stax deck.  I remember one specific post even noting (paraphrased) that Smokestack is weak due to the fact that it does not take immediate effect, taking nearly a turn and a half to gain potency.  If this is true, why not run more Braids?  He hits the opponent NEXT turn.  I know he's legendary, but he's much better than Smokestack.

-I know this thread is about the viability of Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth, but I don't truly understand what black spells this deck gives you access to besides tutors, duress and/or Extirpate in the side (both of which I've found less than worthwhile) and the aforementioned Braids.  One would almost think you could make a Blue Stax deck which would be just  as viable with Ancestral, Walk, and Intuitions (hell, even gifts).  Following this thought, I feel like the Mono-Red Uba-Stax deck, being discussed in another thread is much more viable.

Okay, in order:

Long/gifts match-up: I tested against Gifts this weekend and it indeed wasn't pretty. I had the feeling I needed more locks. It really felt like often I missed that last 'oopmh' to seal the deal. Result: the opponent Rebuild my board or Chained my Chalice @ 1 and fired off an Empty the Warrens. The question is wich locks to add:

- Spheres of Resistance: to postphone bounce with one or more turns to get Smoke/Braids/Void online. A first/second turn Sphere makes it harder for them to go Mox-Mox-Mox-Sol-Warrens.

- Tangle Wire: same as above. They still can bounce for the usual cost during your upkeep while Sphere makes that harder. Wires are also good against aggro.

- Orb of Dreams: This is used in the new MonoRed Stax discussed on this board. I always felt that it was good but not strong enough. With the rise in fetchlands and combo/storm it became a lot better I think.

- an extra Nether Void: to make sure I *always* have one to drop to seal the deal. This sounds good because it makes an harder lock while he's soft-locked.

- an (or 2) extra Braids: same as above.

- Chains of Mephistopheles: It's most powerful plus is its non-artifact status I guess. Handy against those Brainstorms digging for answers. Never tested these. Kills the "Mirage Tutor/Brainstorm" play.

- Defense Grid: Counterspells proved to be a great pain in the ass, especially with 'big' spells like Smokestack and Void. This could be pretty good I think. If you can slip this one through you can be sure to lay down some locks undisturbed the next turns.

- Powder Keg: I explained these ones earlier in this thread. Takes care of Moxen, Goblin tokens, even small critters. Wiping away Moxen makes Smokestack and Wire better.

- something else ...

If anyone could give his opinions on these locks or even better his personal choice I would really appreciate that. Non-artifact locks would be the best.

Braids vs. Smokestack: The fact that Braids effect is faster is indeed a big plus. On the other hand, Smokestack can be put @ 2 or more wich is very relevant when you're racing to destroy their mana-base. Although I rarely have problems in casting Braids in the mid/late game, Smokestack is still much easier to cast. That's why I currently play 4 Smokeys / 2 Braids. I' m thinking about upping Braids to 3 as an extra bomb.

use of the black spells: Actually, black gives a lot to Stax. Nether Void and Braids are great locks and Tutoring for Strip Mine is strong. Leyline is a very nice sideboard card and Cabal Pit is the black Barbarian Ring. On top of that I really like 4 Urborgs. Do not underestimate tapping your Bazaars, Workshops and such for B. I'm not saying that it's the better stax deck (Personnaly, I'm sure MonoRed is the best at the moment) but I really like to explore new stax-archetypes. Isn't that were the forums are ment for?

Comments on specific cards:
Mishra's Factory: I don't really see why you would want to play this card, and certainly not why in four. It helps you against fish, but worsens your lock speed considerably compared to, say, Ancient Tomb, which I like a lot more.

Also, another idea I just had: maybe swapping the 4 Shops for 4 Ancient Tombs would allow for almost the same turn one, and a slighly better turn two.

Factorys are even better in this deck than in other Stax decks. They block, they are free attackers under Void, they give mana, they work great with Gate to Phyrexia (and CoW), ...

I wouldn't play Ancient Tombs. I already take a lot of damage from Confidant and Pits. I could see, however, playing 1 or 2 City of Traitors.

@ Spacebalzz: I agree with you on one thing: This deck is very weak when key components get countered, and in vintage, Blue is a house...

I think you hit the nail on the head here. The locks are very strong when resolved (Braids and Void I mean). That's why my testing against non-counter decks goes alot better  . And that's why I thought about Defense Grid. At least sideboard, maybe even main. What do you think?

Has anyone considered running Petrified Field in the maindeck or sideboard? It has synnergy with Bazaar, protects your important lands, and would be very helpful when you have to dig for Tabernacle against Warrens tokens.

How hurtful is it when your Urborg Tomb is Wasted? With Braids maindeck you seem very dependent on it.

Also, I like Steve's idea of playing Riftstone Portal. Balance and Crop Rotation could be great in the deck, but I don't know if the setup required is worthwhile.

Petrified Field seems a bit too much when you already play 4 CoW's. I keep Urborg back until I can drop a black bomb when I expect Wasteland. Mostly, the Wastes are pointed at my Bazaars and Shops. Even at the Pits to protect their Welder and Fishes. Riftstone Portal is indeed a nice idea but it would turn out as a pretty different deck I guess.

yespuhyren: Has your list changed recently or are you still happy with the last list you posted?

WhiteWolf