Urborg , Tomb of Yawgmoth and Blood Moon

[silvernail]

Urborb Tomb of Yawgmoth
Legendary Land

Each land is a Swamp in addition to its other land types.

Blood Moon
Enchantment

Nonbasic lands are Mountains.

How do these two cards interact with each other and other non basic lands ?

[technogeek5000]

Ok blood moon makes all nonbasic lands mountains. Urbog sais it makes them swamp in addition to their other types so this would make all nonbasic lands badlands.

[silvernail]

But shouldnt Blood Moon negate UTY's effect by making it a Mountain?

Does playing one or the other first effect what happens ?

[Bill Copes]

Does playing one or the other first effect what happens ?

Yeah, it depends on what gets played first.  If it's urborg then it's ability gets wiped out.  If blood moon is in play before urborg, then all nonbasics become swamps in addition to mountains.

[Playboy514]

I thought UTY just make them swamps IN ADDITION to their basic land type.

Wouldn't blood moon just change the lands basic type? I don't see how it could effect the extra ability of "in addition"

[Binary]

This does NOT rely on timestamps. Urborg's effect is dependent on Blood Moon's effect, because Blood Moon modifies what Urborg can affect (by causing it to lose its ability).

The end result in this case is that all non-basic lands are Mountains, and Urborg does nothing.

[parallax]

When Blood Moon causes a non-basic land to become a Mountain, that land loses all its abilities and gains ": Add to your mana pool." Thus, when Urborg becomes a Mountain, it loses its "All lands are Swamps in addition to their other types." ability. Since Blood Moon's effect changes whether Urborg's effect is applied or not, Urborg's effect is applied after Blood Moon's. Thus, Blood Moon turns Urborg into a Mountain, and Urborg no longer has an ability to apply.

Binary is right. Timestamps have no effect. All non-basic lands are Mountains and tap for only. Basic lands are whatever they were to begin with and do not tap for unless they were Swamps in the first place.

[silvernail]

Ok great, note to self do not run UTOY in my black red control deck along side blood moons.

[Bill Copes]

From star city games ask the judge:

Q: What is the interaction between Blood Moon and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgoth?

A: It depends on the order that these two permanents come into play. If Blood Moon came into play last, then non-basic lands will be just Mountains and will, therefore, only have one mana ability, which generates red mana. If Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth cames into play last, then non-basic land will have both the basic land subtypes of Mountain and Swamp and will have two mana abilities, one that make red mana and another that makes black mana. This is because you apply these two effects according to timestamp order, and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth's effect specifies that these lands keep all of their old types, where Blood Moon does not.

[parallax]

212.6e If an effect changes a land’s type to one or more of the basic land types, the land no longer has its old land type. It loses all abilities generated from its rules text and its old land types, and it gains the appropriate mana ability for each new basic land type. Note that this doesn’t remove any abilities that were granted to the land by other effects. Changing a land’s subtype doesn’t add or remove any types (such as creature) or supertypes (such as basic, legendary, and snow) the land may have. If a land gains one or more land types in addition to its own, it keeps its land types and rules text, and it gains the new land types and mana abilities.

418.5c An effect is said to “depend on” another if (a) it’s applied in the same layer (and, if applicable, sublayer) as the other effect (see rule 418.5a) and (b) applying the other would change the text or the existence of the first effect, what it applies to, or what it does to any of the things it applies to. Otherwise, the effect is considered to be independent of the other effect.

418.5d An effect dependent on one or more other effects waits to apply until just after all of those effects have been applied, even if this causes a characteristic-setting ability to apply after another effect. If multiple dependent effects would apply simultaneously in this way, they’re applied in “timestamp order” relative to each other. If several dependent effects form a dependency loop, then this rule is ignored and the effects in the dependency loop are applied in timestamp order.

Blood Moon is applied in the same layer as Urborg, and affects the existence of Urborg's effect. Thus, Urborg's effect "depends on" Blood Moon's. Urborg's effect will be applied after Blood Moon's, but after Blood Moon's effect, Urborg no longer has that ability. If it works differently, I'd like to know why.

[Playboy514]

Great explanation guys! I completly understand now, makes perfect sense.

[Clariax]

Nonbasics all end up mountains, not swamps, for precisely the reason parallax provided.  The answer apparently quoted from SCG's ATJ is incorrect.  (At least recently magic online also handled this interaction incorrectly, don't know if that's been fixed).

[LotusHead]

Nonbasics all end up mountains, not swamps, for precisely the reason parallax provided.  The answer apparently quoted from SCG's ATJ is incorrect.  (At least recently magic online also handled this interaction incorrectly, don't know if that's been fixed).

Whoot! I Win!

I just didn't have the guts the claim that the SCG judge was wrong!

Whoot!

But, just this response isn't a complete waste, what if someone plays a Ravnica BounceLand with Blood Moon or Magus/Bloodmoon in play?
Does the land come into play tapped (I assume so.  Why? I am not sure.)

.  Does that player not need to bounce a land?

Play land tapped? Not Tapped? Bounce land? Not bounce land?

I'm sure this wont come up in tournies (T!), but I like to keep up on all rules.

[parallax]

"This comes into play tapped" effects are replacement effects that replace the action "This comes into play". As such, they apply immediately before the object is in play. So a bounceland will come into play tapped even with Blood Moon out. "When this comes into play" effects trigger in the in-play zone, so a bounceland will lose the ability before it is able to trigger. The bounceland's ability will not trigger if Blood Moon is out.

And this comes up in tournies a lot, actually. Bouncelands and Blood Moon both see play occasionally.

[Bill Copes]

Nuts.  I was hoping the time stamp thing worked, since I use urborg quite a lot.  I no longer have complete confidence in the star city games rules forum/section/thingy.

[LotusHead]

Nuts.  I was hoping the time stamp thing worked, since I use urborg quite a lot.  I no longer have complete confidence in the star city games rules forum/section/thingy.

Never have complete confidence in anything you read on this site or others.

Be convinced by valid points/arguements.

Luckily, here we have experienced Vintage players and actual Judges who read our rule forum regularily and can respond the minutia of our questions.

I've been burned too many times on rules that SOUNDED weird, but I wasn't sold on.  Animate Dead on Akroma is an example. 

[Bill Copes]

I figured since i pulled it from the "ask the judge" part of star city games, that the "headest" of head judges would be there answering peoples questions regarding card interactions.  I thought it would be accurate.  I am grossly disappointed.

[Clariax]

I figured since i pulled it from the "ask the judge" part of star city games, that the "headest" of head judges would be there answering peoples questions regarding card interactions.  I thought it would be accurate.  I am grossly disappointed.

Judges are human too.  We make mistakes, it happens.  Even the "'headest' of head judges" (whatever exactly that means) make mistakes.  If your expectations are that someone will never make a mistake, then you'll always be disappointed because your expectations are simply way too high.

[Bill Copes]

Judges are human too.  We make mistakes, it happens.  Even the "'headest' of head judges" (whatever exactly that means) make mistakes.  If your expectations are that someone will never make a mistake, then you'll always be disappointed because your expectations are simply way too high.

You're right.  I was being too judgmental.