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Author Topic: [Article] Analysis of the Restriction of Gifts and Restriction Policy Generally  (Read 22743 times)
Smmenen
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« on: June 07, 2007, 09:43:12 pm »

Note: I wrote this for my article next monday.    However, this segment ballooned to nearly 20 pages.    When I was done writing it (and I still hadn't finished editing it), I realized that no one but Vintage people would want to read it.   I will concisely summarize some of the points made here for my article next Monday (which is also about GroAtog).   


The Vintage Restricted List

I’m going to review all of the restrictions since 2001 for three reasons.   First, it will help you see the full significance of the unrestriction of Gush.   Second, it will provide a backdrop against which to evaluate the restriction of Gifts Ungiven.   Third, this historical review may give us a sense of future DCI action.   

There have been 12 restrictions in Vintage since late 2001.   

1) Announced December, 1st 2001, effective January 1st, 2002: Fact or Fiction is restricted.   

Fact or Fiction was restricted almost entirely on the word of Darren Di Battista.   Darren first argued that it should be restricted 6 years ago here:  http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/1556.html

Then, six months later, he proudly boasted how he convinced Mark Rosewater to restrict Fact here:
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/2311.html
Then, six months after that, he argued that Back to Basics should be restricted.  http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/3413.html

Seriously.   
Ok, so Fact was restricted on the word of a terrible Vintage player.    Was there any tournament evidence?

You have to understand that Vintage in 2001 was a total joke format.  There were no Vintage tournaments that could tell you anything meaningful.   There was a non-existent metagame, very few tournaments of more than 30 players, if any, and the major decks were Keeper, Sligh, Zoo, and Suicide Black.   This was the tail end of the dark age of vintage.  No one played it and those who did were terrible.    What few tournaments there were did feature Fact decks doing well.  Take a look at this sample of 2001 tournament results from Germany here (http://www.trader-online.de/turniere/siegerdecks.htm).   Scroll down to the 2001 tournaments and click the top 3 decklists.   This is a representative sample of the range of decks that ran Fact. 

Fact or Fiction reached its zenith in mono blue Aggro-Morphling decks that abused Back to Basics to destroy multi-color control (remember, this was pre-Fetchland era), and Powder Keg and early Morphlings to beat the Sligh and Suicide Black decks on the other side of the metagame spectrum.   Here in the United States, Ed Paltzik and his friends ran over a small Vintage metagame at Neutral Ground, in New York City with this mono blue deck.   

One reason offered by Aaron Forsythe for the restriction of Gifts is that Fact or Fiction is on the list.   As Aaron said: “Powerful spells that tutor for a single card are generally restricted in this format, so what about one that tutors for four cards? Seems natural, especially as the card's cousin, Fact or Fiction, also resides on the Restricted List.”

The great irony of this is that one of the reasons cited for the restriction of Fact was that Braingyser and Stroke of Genius were restricted (cards that are now very obviously unrestricted).  You be the judge.   

2-3) Announced March 1st 2003, effective April 1st: Entomb and Earthcraft are restricted.   

The reaction is puzzlement until people realize that it was done to ban these cards in 1.5.  Evidently, Earthcraft and Squirrel Nest were too good in 1.5.   

4-5) Announced June 1st, 2003, effective July 1st: Gush and Mind’s Desire are restricted.   

This is the first instance in modern Vintage where a deck has truly dominated, and I have the data to prove it -- to my knowledge, the first major analysis of tournament data ever conducted in Vintage:. http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/5636.html  I ran an analysis of the metagame leading up to the restriction of Gush and found that Gush was making 40% of top 8s from roughly Feb. 2003 through its restriction point.   

GroAtog dominance was briefly interrupted by the emergence of Stax and Rector Trix.  But no sooner had Stax emerged, then GroAtog evolved around it.   The same was true of Rector.  To achieve a 40% top 8 performance rate in Vintage over the long term over many continents is incredibly difficult.  This feat has not been repeated. This would be the last restriction in Vintage based on format dominance.   

In the same month, Scourge is released and Mind’s Desire is pre-emptively restricted.   Note that this is the first instance of pre-emptive restriction in Vintage.   Four Desire wasn’t legal for even one day. 

6-8)  Announced December 1, 2003, effective January 1st, 2004:   Chrome Mox, Burning Wish, and Lion’s Eye Diamond are all restricted.   

Randy Buehler explained the restrictions here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/rb102  I recommend you read the entire article because it’s fascinating and because it provides insight into their thought process. 

Three items are salient:

a)   They gave serious consideration to cards like Chalice of the Void based upon player feedback and Cunning Wish based upon principle.   

b)   Randy explains that the move to restrict Chrome Mox is simply a consequence of the fact that fast mana of that nature in Vintage will see restriction.   Also note that Chrome Mox was in the format since October, but this was the first opportunity to restrict it.   

c)   He also explains that Burning Wish and Lion’s Eye Diamond were restricted on account of Long.dec.    Note that Long.dec, while incredibly powerful and certainly the best deck in the format, was far from dominant.   Far too few players actually piloted the deck and it never really enjoyed a major tournament win.  It was restricted more on account of what it could do (goldfish on turn one 60% of the time) rather than what it actually did.   

This is the first instance since Gush, aside from pre-emptive restrictions based upon objective power, that they will restrict cards not based on format dominance.    Note that a poll of Vintage players found that most Vintage players thought that only LED and Chrome Mox should be restricted, not Burning Wish: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/5980.html
Note my position in that Chart – compare my vote with Brian Weissmans.   Also, look at how many people thought Burning Wish should be restricted, almost no one.   

Restricting LED was the right move, but I think restricting Burning Wish was not right.

9-11) Announced March 1st, 2005, effective April 1, 2005 and Sept. 1st, 2005 (respectively): Trinisphere, Imperial Seal, and Personal Tutor are restricted.

Aarony Forsythe explained the decision here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/af56 ) and here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/af65 ).

Trinisphere was legal for an entire year.  It was released with Darksteel and spoiled in Feb. of 2004.   

Little known fact: it wasn’t until Fifth Dawn with Crucible of Worlds that Workshop Trinisphere decks took off.   You can see this trend in my 2004 Vintage year in review: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/245    And the surprising strategy to emerge with the most success at abusing Trinisphere was Beatdown Mishra’s Workshop decks.   We saw Juggernauts and Mask-Naught perform very well for the next 4 months.   

By the fall, Workshop Trinisphere was half of the top 8 at the Vintage Championship that fall.   Two of the Workshop Trinisphere decks were Juggernaut based and the other two were more traditional Smokestack based.   However, Control Slaver won the whole thing.   In addition, I played a mono blue deck that preyed upon the Workshop and Fish metagame and went undefeated in the swiss.   

Then, Forbidden Orchard was printed and Oath of Druids became the perfect foil to Aggro Workshop.   Here was the top 8 at the next major SCG Event:
Star City Games Power Nine II
Top 8:
1.   Meandeck Oath
2.   Workshop Aggro with Smokestacks
3.   Meandeck Oath
4.   Workshop Aggro
5.   Control Titan
6.   Meandeck Oath
7.   Meandeck Oath (me)
8.   Workshop Aggro
However, within the space of a month, Workshops were back on top.   They found ways to foil the Oath strategy:
Starcitygames, Power Nine III, Nov. 2004
The Top 8 was:
1.   5/3
2.   7/10 Split
3.   Meandeck Doomsday (Me)
4.   Stax
5.   Control Slaver
6.   Psychatog
7.   Workshop Beatdown
8.   U/W Fish (Phish)
While I made top 4 on an anti-Workshop combo deck, Workshops clearly owned the day. 

The final straw apparently was SCG Syracuse, where Kevin Cron won SCG IV with Trinistax designed to beat Control Slaver.   The irony was that Kevin only ran 3 Trinisphere’s maindeck since Control Slaver had fully adapted to winning around Trinisphere. 

Here was the January and February metagame breakdown preceding the restriction of Trinisphere (as calculated by supercomputer Phil Stanton):
10 Trinistax (1,1,1,1,3,3,4,7,8,8)
10 TPS (1,1,2,2,2,3,3,5,8,8)
7 Mud / Welder Mud* (1,2,4,4,4,6,7)
7 Control Slaver (2,3,5,5,5,7,7)
7 Landstill (2,2,2,3,4,7,7)
7 Oath of Druids (3,3,5,5,6,6,6)
5 Dragon (2,4,7,7,8)
5 4C Control (3,4,4,7,8)
5 Fish (5,5,7,8,8)

Although Trinistax could not be said to dominate the Vintage metagame, it clearly distorted and shaped the metagame much like Flash did at GP Columbus.   The TPS decks that you see next to Trinistax were combo decks built specifically to beat Trinistax.   In addition, Control Slaver was pretty much the Trinistax foil.   

The Vintage metagame had pretty much adapted to Stax and was by now used to the concept of 4 Trinisphere Stax.   The outrage had peaked in the fall of the previous year, but with all of the format upheaval around Trinisphere, the move to restrict it lost a lot of momentum.   It came as pretty much a shock to everyone when the DCI announced it restriction on March 1st.   

Although Aaron says that they were tempted to pre-emptively restrict Trinisphere on principle alone, much as they did with Mind’s Desire and Chrome Mox, they ultimately waited to see what happened to the metagame.    Trinistax didn’t dominate, but it did shape the metagame around it.   

Most importantly, Aaron explains the move to restrict Trinisphere on a ground that was pretty much unvoiced at that point: Fun Factor.   Here is how he puts it:

Trinisphere is a nasty card, no bones about it. It does ridiculous things in Vintage, especially combined with Mishra's Workshop. As I've said in a previous column, we almost restricted it before it was even released.
Now that it has been floating around for a while, the Vintage crowd understands that the card does good things for the format, and bad things to the format. While it does serve a role of keeping combo decks in check, it also randomly destroys people on turn one, with little recourse other than Force of Will. And those games end up labeled with that heinous word—unfun. Not just “I lost” unfun, but “Why did I even come here to play?” unfun. The power level of the card is no jokes either, which is a big reason why I don't feel bad about its restriction.
Vintage, like the other formats with large card pools, always runs the risk of becoming non-interactive, meaning the games are little more than both players “goldfishing” to see who can win first. Trinisphere adds to that problem by literally preventing the opponent from playing spells. We don't want Magic to be about that, especially not that easily. If combo rears its head, we'll worry about it later. But for now, we want to people to play their cards. Really.

So, while Trinisphere didn’t dominate, it did make things unfun, non-interactive, and did ultimately warp the metagame around it.    As a side note, I was against the move on the principle that Trinisphere didn’t dominate, but in time I’ve come to see this decision as a good move, even if the timing was odd.  The move freed up a lot of the resentment that players had towards Mishra’s Workshop.   It made the format fun for a lot of players, once again.    Most ironically, the restriction of Trinisphere led to the most successful run by Stax ever seen in Vintage.    Stax proceeded to win most of the major SCG tournaments that year, the Vintage Championship (the first time a non-Drain deck did it), and a Waterbury.    Apparently, the restriction of Trinisphere freed Stax players to think more creatively about how to win and some interesting design space opened up.   

Note that the DCI announced the legalization of Portal by the fall.   Coinciding with this announcement and the restriction of Trinisphere was the announced restriction of both Personal Tutor and Imperial Seal.  This was the third instance of pre-emptive restriction we see in modern Vintage.   

12) Announced June 1st, 2007, Effective June 20th:  Gifts Ungiven is restricted.

It has been over two years since the last restriction in Vintage was announced.  This card has been legal in Vintage for nearly three years.   

Gifts Ungiven was printed with little fanfare in Vintage.    By December of 2004, some clever German designers came up with the Recoup, Yawg Will, and Tinker combo.    This move was largely ignored by American designers until Andy Probasco fused Goblin Welders and Goblin Charbelcher – Mana Severance into the combo.   This deck became known as Shortbus Severance Belcher.    His Gifts pile was: Mana Severance, Tinker, Yawg Will, and Recoup.   No matter what you give him, he wins.   Andy built the deck using only 2 Gifts, 2-3 Welders, and 4 Thirst for Knoweldge as the primary draw engine.    The European lists turn to using some mix of Thirst for Knowledge, Skeletal Scrying as their draw engine.  They only use 2-3 Gifts.

After exploring all of these options, I decided that these lists did not properly appreciate that Gifts Ungiven could be an engine in itself.  By relying on Thirst For Knowledge as a mid-game draw engine, these lists were inefficiently utilizing Gifts and become too top heavy.    My solution was radical.    I write about this here: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9963.html

I decide that 4 Merchant Scrolls and 4 Gifts Ungiven provide excellent synergy.   Scroll doesn’t get in the way of Gifts like Thirst does.   

After testing the deck for a while, I come up with revolutionary design that drops Thirst For Knowledge entirely in favor of an aggressive synergy of 4 Merchant Scroll, 4 Gifts Ungiven, and 3 Misdirections.    It becomes a very simple 3 step game plan. 

Initially, most of the Vintage community refuses to play my decklist and after a very brief run, it languishes in obscurity while people continue to play Thirst For Knowledge Gifts lists that do not include 4 Gifts.    However, my decklist ends up winning the Vintage Championship in 2006 and suddenly the deck is extremely popular again.   Meandeck Gifts variants begin winning and doing very well in lots of tournaments.   Unfortunately, Pitch Long and other decks perform almost as well.   You can read through my 2006 Vintage Year in review, here is how Gifts fared in comparison to other archtypes:

Here is a tally of all of the decks that made t8 in all of the major Vintage events from 2006:

Gifts (MDG/TFK-Gifts): 21
Slaver (CS/Burning Slaver): 19
Tendrils (Grimlong/Pitchlong/IT): 16
Fish (UW/URBana/SS): 15
Shop (Stax/UbaStax): 14
Bomberman : 8
Oath: 5
WGD: 3

For the same events, here are the tallies for the 1st/2nd place finishers in 2006:

Gifts: 8
Tendrils: 5
CS: 4
Stax: 3
Fish: 2 (all SS variants)
Bomberman: 1

Clearly, by year’s end, Gifts was the best performing deck, but only by a hair.    The metagame is extremely diverse and very competitive.    Moreover, Gifts had just taken Control Slaver’s spot at the best and most played blue based control deck in the format.  Control Slaver came much closer to actually dominating Vintage in 2005 than Gifts did in 2006.   

Finally, in January of this year, Andy Probasco comes up with yet another radical Gifts design.   For the first time he abandons the Thirst For Knowledge engine in favor of Merchant Scrolls, but he incorporates Empty the Warrens and Repeals into the deck, and he calls it Repeal Gifts.   

And that is pretty much where we are today.    There have been no major Vintage tournaments since January.    Most of the metagame expected that Long and Gifts were probably the two best decks followed by Bomberman, Fish, Stax, and Control Slaver, just as had been the case last year.   However, the recent changes in Vintage with Future Sight and Flash threw that metagame out the window.

While Gifts Ungiven has been a player in Vintage since 2005, it is at its lowest ebb.   Recent changes to Vintage, specifically Ichorid, Flash, and developments you’ll see next week were pushing Gifts out of the tier one, from a place I do not think it would have returned.   It was far from dominant and didn’t really warp the format any more than the presence of fast Mana Drain decks generally, of which Control Slaver is an equally egregious offender.

Control Slaver performed just as well as Gifts did for a long period of time (just like Psychatog did before that), and Thirst for Knowledge was never restricted.    Gifts was performing in line with how traditional blue based control decks of the past had. 

More importantly, there was some movement to restrict Gifts late last year.   The momentum to restrict Gifts seemed to have crested in December and then dissipated almost entirely.   And when Gifts wasn’t restricted in March, no one seemed to care anymore.     

Based upon the previous 11 restrictions, there very clearly emerges 5 basic, often overlapping, criteria for restriction:

1) Metagame Dominant

2) Objectively Broken/ Restricted on Principle

3) Metagame Warping

4) Unfun – Non-interactive

5) Restricted for 1.5 (Only when the lists were linked

Here’s where the 11 previous restrictions fall:

1) Fact or Fiction: A claim of Dominance (Criteria # 1), which was true based upon the very limited metagame that existed at the time.   

2-3) Entomb and Earthcraft.   Restricted for 1.5 (Criteria # 5).

4) Gush: Metagame Dominant, clearly so in a vibrant and fluid metagame.   (Criteria # 1)

5) Mind’s Desire.   Objectively broken/ restricted on principle (criteria # 2).  Presumably would have produced a metagame dominant or warping deck and would have been unfun. 

6) Chrome Mox.   Objectively broken/restricted on principle (criteria # 2)

7) Lion’s Eye Diamond.    Objectively broken/restricted on principle and because produces deck that is too fast (criteria # 2 and probably #4).   

8) Burning Wish.   Objectively broken/ restricted on principle and because produces deck that is too fast (criteria #2 and probably #4).

9) Trinipshere.  Unfun (# 4), but it was also metagame warping (#3).  Note that it was not restricted on principle, despite discussions about doing so.   

10-11) Imperial Seal and Personal Tutor.   Restricted on Principle (#2).     

Note, that most of the cards that were restricted on principle were pre-emptively restricted: Mind’s Desire, Chrome Mox, Imperial Seal, Personal Tutor.  Also note that the one clear exception to this was Lion’s Eye Diamond, which was also cited with Chrome Mox, but was legal in Vintage for nearly 10 years before it was properly abused.   Also note that Burning Wish was also restricted to kill Long.dec, but also because it tutored up Yawg Will, and therefore was considered objectively broken.   Note that it was no pre-emptively restricted.    It was restricted not on pure principle either, but because of a particular deck that didn’t dominate (at least, not yet) nor metagame warp.   That deck was cited, however, as being a 60% turn one win deck.   Therefore, the restriction of both Burning Wish and LED can also fall under the Unfun-Non-interactive category.

What we see from these restrictions is a very clear pattern.   1) Some cards will be restricted because they lock the opponent out of the game on turn one (non-interactive, unfunness).   This is Trinisphere, LED, and Burning Wish.   2) Other cards will be restricted in principle of objective brokeness: Mind’s Desire, Chrome Mox, Imperial Seal on a pre-emptive basis.  Buehler warned us to expect these cards to get restricted at the earliest opportunity.   3) Metagame dominance: Gush.   4) Metagame warping: Trinisphere

In most instances, these criteria overlap, as you might imagine.

Gifts doesn’t fit well into any of these.    Gifts is clearly not metagame dominant like Gush.   It is a much smaller proportion of the metagame, about 15%.   Admittedly, there were 4 decks in the last Waterbury Day 1 that ran Gifts in their deckshttp: //sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=vin&start_date=2007-01-14&end_date=2007-01-14&start_num=100&start_num=125&limit=25 .   But that is a feature of the Waterbury.   First of all, take a look at the Roanoke decklists a month before: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=vin&start_date=2006-11-19&end_date=2006-11-19  Only one Gifts deck in the top 8.    Secondly, the Waterbury always features a very high proportion of Drain decks, regardless of the archetype.   Take a look at the same Waterbury results two years earlier:
The Waterbury - 202 Players Jan, 2005
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21512

1) Goth Control Slaver
2) Goth Control Slaver
3) The Perfect Storm
4) Meandeck Tendrils
5) Control Slaver
6) Control Slaver
7) Rector Trix
8) Workshop - Staff of Domination Combo
There were four Control Slaver lists in the Top 8 and eight in the Top 16. Control Slaver, also won that year’s previous World Championship, just as Gifts had in this instance.
In any case, if Gifts was restricted for dominance, which it clearly wasn’t, than the fact that Welder or Thirst For Knowledge wasn’t restricted following the 2005 Waterbury is completely inconsistent.   Control Slaver truly dominated that tournament and cinched the previous World Champs.
Moreover, if Gifts was restricted for dominance, wouldn’t that have occurred before now?   Perhaps on Sept 1st or March 1st, rather than June?   In any case, there is very, very little evidence of dominance.   
What about metagame warping?   Gifts, unlike other broken decks of the past, did not warp the metagame around it.   The dominant force of which Gifts was merely one part was Mana Drain combo decks.    Control Slaver, Drain Tendrils, and Gifts are all roughly as fast and all vulnerable to the same things: Null Rod, Red Blast, Tormod’s Crypt, etc.   Gifts didn’t really change anything in the metagame.   It was so good because it was more resilient to Pitch Long than Slaver, due to Merchant Scroll. 
What about being non-interactive or unfun?    Quite the contrary, Gifts was considered to be quite fun and often highly interactive.  Sure, most of the time if you did it right the Gifts piles didn’t matter.  But it required decision-making on the part of both players.   Most players thought Gifts added a nice layer of skill to the format. 
What about being objectively broken or restricted on principle?   In almost all of the cases of this, the cards in question were pre-emptively restricted.  Perhaps the closest point of comparison is Burning Wish.   Although it was ambiguous, Burning Wish was restricted to kill Long.dec, a deck that was too fast, and because of its power with finding broken Sorceries.   We’ll explore this argument in a bit, because it seems to be one of the pillars of Forsythe’s justification.   
In short, this restriction wasn’t based on dominance like Gush.  Nor was it based on objective power like Desire (otherwise it would have been restricted like Chrome Mox and Mind’s Desire – coterminous with the set release).   Nor was it restricted on the grounds of extreme metagame warping un-fun-ness like Trinisphere.   

So, if it wasn’t restricted on those obvious grounds, then why was it restricted?

Here’s how Aaron Forsythe justified the restriction:
“Powerful spells that tutor for a single card are generally restricted in this format, so what about one that tutors for four cards? Seems natural, especially as the card's cousin, Fact or Fiction, also resides on the Restricted List.
Gifts Ungiven was, for a long time, used primarily in a deck based around it—"Gifts"—that would control the game long enough to tutor up a suite of win conditions that left the opponent no way out. Recently the card has been creeping into other decks, including Control Slaver and Gro-A-Tog, as its power is undeniable. It should still see play as a one-of.”
Let me evaluate the logic.  But first let’s recapitulate in standard form:
Gifts was restricted on the grounds that 1) it was a powerful restriction worthy tutor, 2) that it was akin to other cards already restricted, and 3) that it was popping up in other decks to show how powerful it was.

The Tutor argument
The answer to the tutor argument is awkwardly simple:  Gifts isn’t busted because it’s a tutor and finds 4 cards – it’s busted because it is so effective with a particular card and pretty much that card alone: Yawgmoth’s Will.  It is hard to imagine designing a tutor with so many built in synergies with Will.   Note: do not mistake me when I say that Gifts is good because of yawg Will – that doesn’t mean your first Gifts pile finds Yawg Will, but what makes Gifts strategically viable is that eventually you’ll find Will.   For instance, your first “set up” gifts may just find Recoup and three non-Will cards.   Then your second Gifts puts Will in the yard.   Let me put it this way: Counterfactually, if Yawgmoth’s Will were banned in Vintage, Gifts Ungiven is not restriction worthy and probably unplayed.    The veracity of that claim is not contested.     

As for the claim that powerful tutors are generally restricted, Grim Tutor is rightfully unrestricted.  Academy Rector was not restricted despite a strong push in 2003.    Many felt that Rector + Cabal Therapy to not only tutor up Yawgmoth’s Bargain, but put it directly into play was just unfair.    Today, that play is much more easily accomplished with Flash, and yet Flash isn’t restricted.   Flash + Academy Rector is instant 1U tutor for Yawgmoth’s Bargain and put it directly into play!   The inconsistency is too bare to escape notice or to withstand critical judgment.   

And yet, in my view, the most powerful unrestricted tutor in Vintage wasn’t Gifts, Grim Tutor, or even Academy Rector – it was and remains Merchant Scroll.   It finds Ancestral Recall, Gush, any bounce spell you may need given the situation, and helps tutor chain for Yawg Will with Mystical Tutor for only 1UU.   What this shows is that we don’t restrict great tutors in Vintage on principle alone – they have to be more than great tutors;  they have to be problematic.    Academy Rector, Grim Tutor, and Merchant Scroll have all been given a pass because of this.   Burning Wish was not so lucky.   

Regarding Forsythe’s argument that the fact that Gifts gets four cards is another supporting justification:  Intuition tutors for three cards – one card per mana, just like Gifts.   And yet Intuition has been legal for a very long time with no hint of restriction, despite powering the best control deck in the format from late 2003 through most of 2004.  The restriction of Gifts now makes little more sense than restricting Intuition back in early 2004.   Moreover, Intuition allows you to get any cards at one mana per card – not just different ones as required by Gifts.   And yet no one would seriously talk of restricting Intuition.   

The Fact Comparison

The other argument for restriction is that how can it make sense to have Gifts unrestricted while Fact or Fiction is restricted?   Fact or Fiction is objectively broken in its own right regardless of what you Fact into.   In contrast, Gifts Ungiven is only good because of Yawgmoth’s Will.   People argue that Gifts wins the game when you play it.  This is false.   Turn one Mana Crypt, Mox, land, Gifts Ungiven does not equal game over.   Sure, you can set up very solid Gifts piles, but if you don’t have the resources online yet to combo out, your opponent will have a chance to win first or disrupt your attempts to make anything of the meager card advantage you just achieved.  Even a simple Duress can be a knockout.  On the contrary, turn one Mox, Mana Crypt, land, Fact or Fiction on turn one is a much more powerful play than turn one Gifts.   That’s because Gifts is a Yawg Will engine while Fact is a card advantage/digging engine. 

Some vocal Vintage players, Ben Carp stands out, have repeated ad nauseum that Gifts should be restricted because Fact is.   While facially sensible, these arguments miss crucial subtleties because these players never actually played with 4 Facts.  One such point is explained in the paragraph above.  Another such point is this: the power of Fact in multiples versus its objective power as a singleton.   Similar to Mind’s Desire, Facting into Facts is not only extremely powerful, but also not that unlikely.  This is because of how deep Fact digs.   If you don’t hit a Fact with Fact, you are much more likely to see another one soon thereafter.   Gifts, on the contrary, isn’t as synergistic with other Gifts.   Sure, a Gifts preceding a Gifts for Yawg Will can make your Yawg Will more explosive, but it’s not the same thing.   And Gifting for Gifts isn’t generally the go-to play.    The principle for restricting Fact doesn’t apply to Gifts.  Fact was an insane engine its own right that synergized enormously with other Facts.   Gifts is almost entirely reliant upon Yawg Will.   The inherent value of Gifts doesn’t rise dramatically when it interacts with other Gifts.   The opposite is true of Fact.   Thus, the case for restricting Fact is completely different from the case for restricting Gifts, if we are talking from a purely functional perspective.

Another important point that really undermines the logic of the Fact/Gifts comparison for restricting Gifts: If Gush can be unrestricted, a card that was restricted in 2003 on the strongest evidence of format dominance, then Fact or Fiction’s place on the restricted list is thrown into great doubt.    Fact was a card restricted in the twilight of the dark age of Vintage, before the format was cast back into the public eye – as Oscar Tan began writing on Vintage.    Fact was restricted on flimsy tournament data and primarily on the word of a few Vintage mouthpieces.   If Gush can be pulled off the list, Fact’s place on that list is pretty silly.   In terms of safety of unrestriction, I’m willing to be that 95% of the Vintage community would have thought that Fact was safer to unrestrict than Gush.   Fact was restricted in 2001 while Gush was restricted in 2003.  Gush dominated the metagame for 6 months; Fact dominated a few 30-man tournaments for a few months when people were playing Sligh, Suicide Black, and Keeper.   Fact is barely even played in Vintage anymore.   In any assessment of head to head matchups, Gush decks have always dominated 4 Fact decks.   By almost any measure available, the unrestriction of Gush signals that Fact does not deserve its spot on the restricted list.   By that logic, neither does Gifts.  If Gush can be unrestricted, then I see no reason to let Fact or Fiction, a card restricted on the most flimsy of evidence, rot on the restricted list.     If Gifts is on the restricted list, in part, because Fact or Fiction is as well, then the unrestriction of Gush completely undermines that claim. 

Creeping into other decks argument
The final point that Aaron brought up was that Gifts was being played in GroAtog and Control Slaver.   What about Thirst for Knowledge which saw much more play in many more decks from Control Slaver, to Gifts, to GroAtog, to mono blue decks, to all sorts of other control decks?

The Timing

The timing of this move is odd, to say the least.   Gifts has had peaks and valleys over the last two years.   It peaked in March of 2005 then disappeared for a couple of months.  Then I innovated Meandeck Gifts and it popped up again.  Then it went away, once again.   I’ve documented the trend in my Year in Reviews – the general trend is that Gifts re-emerges when new technology is implemented to power it up, but then it fades back away while other decks start to win.  The cycle in Vintage over the last 5 years is that there are generally 2.5 decks in the tier one at any given time.   One deck is on its way up – a relatively new entrant, another is in the middle of its life cycle, and another is in decline.   Last year, Stax was on its way out, Gifts was the middle sitter, and Long decks were the new entrant.  This year, Gifts was finally on the decline and most players knew it.   If you polled the Vintage community, you might have been able to get something approaching 40% support for its restriction six months ago.   Last month?  From my read, probably no more than 15-20% of the Vintage community thought Gifts should be restricted.    That would mirror the poll I took in 2003 regarding Academy Rector.  In the fall of 2003, exactly 20% of the community thought Rector should be restricted (33 out of 165 votes).   The push to restrict Rector was stronger than the move to push Gifts now, and that failed with good reason.    Even those who called for its restriction have admitted that the timing was bad – you punched the deck when it was already on its knees.  And others who once thought it should be restricted no longer thought as much given the changing metagame.   

There are a few other reasons that this may have been a bad move.   First of all, with Gush unrestricted, Gifts becomes a much smaller metagame player.   Second, I’m not at all sure that Gifts could compete with the Flash decks.   Third, the restriction of Gifts, now that Control Slaver is pretty much absent entirely, means that Mana Drains are essentially gone from the Vintage upper tier for the first time ever.   That is not a good thing, in my view.   Mana Drains are an important allure for the format.   If it was restricted to ‘shake things up’ – things didn’t need to be shaken, they were already in tremendous flux.   

But the most important reasons to be worried is that this is a radical departure from previous DCI restrictions and unrestrictions.   The most recent batch of unrestrictions are extremely odd.   They unrestricted dangerous cards instead of safe ones.   Why is Grim Monolith restricted still when cards like Cabal Ritual and Dark Ritual are not?  Why is Gush unrestricted when Fact or Fiction is not?  In terms of “safe” unrestrictions, Gush isn’t even close.   You could have probably unrestricted 10 other cards before Gush.   (see my last article on other cards that could be unrestricted safely: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/13755.html).  For instance, Dream Halls is an awful card that is much less dangerous than either Doomsday or Mind Twist.   Dream Halls could never dominate Vintage or even significantly shape the metagame.   Doomsday had more potential for dominance than Dream Halls ever will.   We have combo decks like Worldgorger Dragon and Grim Long that are lightyears superior to any Dream Halls deck could dream to be.   

The Vintage community has always had reason to trust the DCI because they have been cautious and careful.  I disagreed but respected the decision to restrict Trinisphere because it truly did distort the format.   But restricting Gifts makes very little sense.      Not only was there no real evidence for it, but the timing was extremely bizarre.   Ultimately, it will end up being irrelevant because of Gifts waning position in the metagame, but the precedent it sets is disturbing.     The Vintage format works best when the DCI works cautiously and carefully.  I’m very glad they unrestricted Voltaic Key and Black Vise, two cards I’ve been saying for some time should be unrestricted, but I’m troubled that they made such a radical move with Gifts.   Also, while I applaud the unrestriction of Mind Twist, it was also far from the safer moves that could be made.    Vintage has thrived in the last 6 years because the DCI has been so careful with restrictions and unrestrictions.   The restriction of Gifts is inconsistent with the previous 11 restrictions.    Making restrictions solely on the ground of comparisons to other cards on the restricted list based on analogical reasoning is not a good reason for restriction, especially when the card that is the basis of comparison is probably not worthy of its place on that list if you were going to unrestrict Gush.   The DCI can at least make the unrestriction of Gush somewhat more believable if they unrestrict Fact as well.    Unrestricted Fact would also give Mana Drain decks (hopefully) a home in Vintage again.   I would have preferred to see Gush and Fact stay on the restricted list, but if they are going to remove Gush, then I hope they do the right thing and remove Fact as well.   

Now that I’ve reviewed all of the restrictions in the modern Vintage era, the greatest irony of all is that the one card that was restricted not based upon the theoretical speculation and musing of the DCI or the vocal tenacity of vintage pundits or vintage regulars, but because it actually dominated the oldest and grandest magical format is now unrestricted.   Since I’ve already called into question the wisdom of the Gifts restriction, I won’t senselessly batter the logic of the DCI any further.   Since the deed is done, I only hope for the best.

Let me say at the outset that I am very pleased with the unrestriction of Voltaic Key and Black Vise.   Both cards have been on the restricted list for a very long time.   I am also ultimately happy, but wary, of the unrestriction of Mind Twist.  In an article I wrote earlier this year, I called for its unrestriction.   However, I would have liked to see safer cards removed first.   It’s not that I think Mind Twist will be problematic or even see play, but the card is random and is a greater risk than other junk that is still stuck on the restricted list, primarily because of its ability to swing games based on luck alone.

Here’s why I’m concerned: The DCI restricted Gifts 1) without metagame evidence to support it (warping or dominance), 2) without doing it preemptively like they did with Desire/Chrome Mox/Imperial Seal based on principle alone,  3) without any complaints that it was unfun or non-interactive – there was no Trinsiphere effect at work. 4) they let it exist past the point that most observers thought that it would be restricted (December), and finally 5) they did it at a time when the metagame was in the midst of extreme change.   

The last two are really the most concerning.    I don’t have a problem with restrictions for cards that dominant or warp the metagame, or for cards like Mind’s Desire and Imperial Seal, or even in cases like Trinisphere – where it turns lots of players off the format due to unfunness).    My problem is that this restriction was very poorly timed, and thus once again creates the impression that the DCI is not ontop of the Vintage format.    If they were going to restrict it, they should have done it some time ago.    Moreover, they should have realized that the extreme changes to the format were going to radically shake things up.   While I think the restriction of Gifts makes very little sense generally, it makes even less sense when you realize that the format is going to be 80% different after: 1) Future Sight, 2) Flash errata, and 3) the unrestriction of Gush. 

The DCI is like a central bank.   DCI policy has to be trustworthy, consistent, and most importantly of all, predictable.    If the DCI’s decisions really don’t surprise anyone, then the DCI is doing its job.   The restriction of Lion’s Eye Diamond, Gush, and Fact or Fiction, when done, really didn’t surprise anyone who paid attention to the format.    Moreover, although the timing was a little strange, the restriction of Trinisphere really wasn’t that surprising.   Almost all of the previous restrictions were predicted.   

This restriction, while hoped for in some quarters, was a very big shock to most of the Vintage community.    Gifts wasn’t really a problem, and while some people thought it might be restricted, they passed up the opportunity at every juncture in which it was thought most likely.    If the DCI wants to restrict cards in Vintage more aggressively, they should monitor their timing more carefully.   The timing on this was just awful.   The metagame was in a state of tremendous disarray when this decision was made.   

The Vintage format needs predictability even more than other formats.    For instance, take Bazaar of Baghdad.   Bazaar sells for anywhere from $130 to $225.    The Vintage Ichorid deck is based on abusing Bazaar.     Moreover, Bazaar is used in lots of decks from Dragon to Stax.   In addition, the Ichorid deck, from a certain perspective, is highly non-interactive and wins by turn 2.5 through almost all disruption except specialized cards like Yixlid Jailer and Leyline of the Void.    Nonetheless, while the deck is objectively impressive, it will never win a major Vintage event and can never be tier 1.   This is for the simple reason that it will never be able to dodge all hate in a top 8 structure.   Something will shut it out.    Moreover, it isn’t even a turn one kill deck like Trinisphere.   Nonetheless, lots of players are beginning to complain about it.   We hear rumblings already.

Based upon the criteria for restriction from the last 12 restrictions, you can make a somewhat plausible argument for restriction.  It is metagame warping in that almost all decks have to pack hate for it.  It also is non-interactive, although it doesn’t win on turn one.   I think its fun and awesome to have a sweet Aggro deck in the format, but others don’t like it.   It can never be metagame dominant, but it is objectively silly.   From that, Bazaar could be restricted.    I don’t think it should be, but with the restriction of Gifts, it seems more likely that Bazaar will get the axe, even though I would strongly urge the DCI not to do so, or choose Serum Powder in lieu of Bazaar.    Nonetheless, the problem with the restriction of Gifts is that we just can’t trust the DCI to make the right call.   I may have to sell my Bazaars because how can I be sure that the DCI won’t make my cards worthless if they don’t do most of their restrictions based on actual tournament data?   

Moreover, there have been no major Vintage tournaments (100 players or more) since the one Waterbury in January.    The DCI doesn’t seem to care that much about actual tournament results, which is truly unfortunate.   

While I want the DCI to do the right thing and continue to unrestrict cards, if the price we pay is more restrictions, that’s a price we can’t afford.   The DCI needs to stop messing with stuff.    Vintage is so much better when they let it alone because people can never agree on anything.

I want you to look at this chart: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/5980.html

I left out this critical part of the narrative in my review of the unrestrictions, but it is high time I added it.   I’ve hinted at some of it already – but over the last 6 years, there have been many, many calls for restrictions that the DCI has seriously entertained.

In Randy’s article, he talked about how they discussed the restriction of Cunning Wish, Chalice of the Void, and other cards like that.    Consider that there have been concerted efforts to restrict:

Illusionary Mask
Mishra’s Workshop
Spoils of the Vault
Intuition
Cunning Wish
Thirst for Knowledge
Back to Basics
Chalice of the Void
Goblin Welder
Academy Rector
Crucible of Worlds
Grim Tutor
Bazaar of Baghdad

And that’s the short list.   

At one time or another, lots of those cards could have been restricted.

In fact, I’ve seen calls for all of those cards by lots of players at one time or another.    In one of Oscar Tan’s article, Aaron Forsythe writes him asking if they should restrict Back to Basics.

I’m serious.   

It was an honest question.  http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/5196.html He wrote that lots of people were complaining about it.   

Darren Di Battista was foremost among them: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/3413.html

Illusionary Mask was utterly broken for half a year in Vintage, and Mishra’s Workshop has been broken as well.    By any sane measure based on analogical reasoning and objective strength, Mishra’s Workshop is stronger than a good deal of the mana accelerants on the restricted list.    Grim Monolith is a joke while Dark Ritual and Mishra’s Workshop are legal.    And yet both Dark Ritual and Mishra’s Workshop doesn’t appear to be headed for the restricted list despite many, many historical calls and complains to nuke them at one time or another.

Why did the DCI stay its hand when faced with these complaints? 

They used their better judgment.   

When the DCI makes a restriction, it’s almost as likely to be wrong as it is to be right.   Any given restriction is going to make some number of people happy, because some proportion of the Vintage player base is always calling for various restrictions.    Yet, in close calls when the DCI has stayed its hand, it has always been the right move. 

I’m 100% convinced that the DCI should have stayed its hand with Gifts.    It could have stayed its hand with Trinisphere, and I’m sure we’d be fine right now.     Seriously: Ichorid decks couldn't care less about Trinisphere and would be mauling Stax right now.   Control Slaver would be doing fine, and Dark Ritual decks would be doing just as well as they did when Trinisphere was around – very well, because they have Rebuild.    I still think the restriction of Trinisphere was the right move, but only because of how badly Trinisphere warped the format.    The same is not true of Gifts.   

While it may seem like I’m unhappy with general DCI policy, things could be a lot worse.  They could have listened to even a fraction of the players who complained in the past about Academy Rector, Chalice of the Void, or Illusionary Mask, and we’d be worse off for it today.   

The truth is that I’m very happy with the last 2 and half years of policy.    Going two years without restricting anything in Vintage is a good thing.    That’s because the Vintage metagame is vibrant and can handle most changes.   Most things that any appreciable number of Vintage players think deserve restriction actually turn out to be just fine in the long run, after a period of adjustment.   

My only frustration is that Gifts didn’t deserve restriction.   Trinisphere and the Portal cards should still be the last cards restricted in this format.   

The point I’m making is that the DCI needs to essentially not listen to players’ complaints unless there is solid metagame evidence to support it or you have a card in the vein of Mind’s Desire.   

As I said, while I want the DCI to do the right thing by unrestricting more cards, we just can’t trust them to get the timing right or to not pull the trigger while they are figuring out what to unrestrict.   It’s too tempting for them to want to restrict something. 

The call to restrict Grim Tutor 6 months ago was very, very fierce.   And now I’m sure the call to restrict Bazaar will be similarly fierce.    Yet, it’s no different from the 2002 calls to restrict Illusionary Mask and Back to Basics, and the 2003 calls to restrict Academy Rector and Bazaar, the 2004 calls to restrict Cruicible of Worlds, Spoils of the Vauld, Intution and Mishra’s Workshop, and the 2005 calls to restrict Dark Ritual and Mishra’s Workshop again.     Too many Vintage players lack that historical perspective to see the clear parallels. 

And yet, the DCI wisely ignored 99% of those calls as they should have.    If this had been 1998 where there was no real Vintage metagame, I imagine that a number of those cards probably would have seen restriction.   But it would have been the wrong decision.    The problem is that no single person, no Randy Buehler, not Aaron Forsythe, not Pat Chapin, not me – no one, is really going to be 100% right.    The DCI is not infallible.   Things seem to be going best when the DCI tries not to interfere.    Since the restriction of Gush, only 8 cards have been restricted, and 4 of them pre-emptively.   Only 4 cards have been restricted that actually noodled around in the metagame: Lion’s Eye Diamond, Burning Wish, Trinisphere, and now Gifts Ungiven.     

What’s next?  Flash?   Bazaar?   Grim Tutor?    Merchant Scroll?   Who knows?   The DCI 8 ball could land anywhere.    I hope the DCI learns its lesson and stops meddling in a format that does just fine without its interference.   

Stephen Menendian


« Last Edit: June 07, 2007, 09:49:07 pm by Smmenen » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2007, 10:40:49 pm »

I am in completely 100% agreement with everything you said.  Why restrict Gifts now?  You couldn't force me to play that in a meta with Flash and Ichorid.  I can only think how cool Gifts v. 4 Gush GAT would be though.
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« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2007, 11:15:34 pm »

Restrictions are bound to make some people happy while others sad.

Fundamentally, Gifts Ungiven is broken as you will tutor for 4 cards, and in the process, as long as you search for the right cards, always get the 2 cards you want.

Either that, or you will tutor for 4 cards that are just as broken, and get the 2 you least want. However, you are stil gaining 2 for the price of 1 card and 3U.

However, Gifts Ungiven is only sometimes situationally good. On other times, it requires good play and the correct choices to bring victory.

Therefore, it is a skill-testing card.

I agree that Gifts Ungiven should not be restricted, just as how Grim Tutor should not be. Both cards have drawbacks. Gifts requires the correct play. Grim Tutor requires a ritual to power it out and 1BB is pretty hard to achieve without it. The life loss also stops it from being abused fully by Necropotence and Yawgmoth's Bargain. In a way, Grim Tutor is also a skill-testing cards, as you must know how to manage your life total when using it.
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« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2007, 11:21:55 pm »

Excellent article/post.

Wizards has mentioned in the past that they hate fiddling with the B&R lists in any format as it makes people fear for the safety of their collection. I can only hope that Wizards realizes the semi-random restriction of Gifts is going to cause that fear in spades. No one cares when a clearly broken card is hit, but cards getting a seemingly arbitrary ax is Not Good.

The restriction of gifts could be chalked up to a one time mistake I guess, but the unrestriction policy seems to be a baffling mix of "get this jank off here" and "let's shake things up a bit."

It seems to me that Voltaic Key took far too long to come off, and Gush took too little. I dunno. Vintage will survive, and if they've made any really massive errors a correction is only 3 months away. Here's to hoping it all works out.
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« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2007, 11:33:31 pm »

Very good article Steve.

A couple questions for you.

Do you think anyone from R&D will read your article?

Is there anyway you can bring this issue to their attention?

Do you think they would realize their error and unrestrict gifts?
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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2007, 11:38:36 pm »

I am very happy to see this article coming up. This by far my favorite topic and I was hoping you would do an analysis of Vintage this month since it has so much history.

I have two objections.

1) I think you should wait until Ichorid has had time to accumulate results before concluding that it won't dominate tournaments. It's sufficiently different from dragon such that it may perform differently, and we can't really say if Bazaar needs to go right now. On principle I agree that it is similar to so many other cards that are complained about, but in this case there is nothing to compare those complaints to. This argument would be much stronger and more credible if there were big Vintage tournaments to point to.

2) I don't think it's relevant to complain about secondary market prices in a discussion of B/R policy. I also think it's inappropriate for the DCI to have to worry about this. Their job is stability, per se. R&D is the only body that has to worry about the secondary market, through reprints.
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« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2007, 12:04:34 am »

Quote
2) I don't think it's relevant to complain about secondary market prices in a discussion of B/R policy. I also think it's inappropriate for the DCI to have to worry about this. Their job is stability, per se. R&D is the only body that has to worry about the secondary market, through reprints.

I partially disagree with this. Obviously the DCI shouldn't be disinclined to ban or restrict a card that needs to go, simply because it's valuable. Some people claimed hitting the Artifact lands was all that was needed to hose affinity, but they hit Ravager too. That shows that the market doesn't affect policy. What they should be concerned with is when their policies affect the market.

If people don't understand the system, they'll start to worry about their collection. I think that issue is something they should have to deal with. A quick article with 1 paragraph on each card just doesn't cut it. I'd love it if Wizards would show their thinking behind the recent changes. Doing so would only alleviate people's fears, which I don't think anyone can really complain about.
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« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2007, 12:20:37 am »

Thanks for the great article, Steve.

I started Vintage seriously during Mirroden Block and only have knowledge from that time forward.  Fact and Gush had always been restricted as far as I was concerned.

Thanks for all the historical work too.

And thanks for making it TMD and Free! Smile
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« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2007, 12:21:43 am »

Quote
2) I don't think it's relevant to complain about secondary market prices in a discussion of B/R policy. I also think it's inappropriate for the DCI to have to worry about this. Their job is stability, per se. R&D is the only body that has to worry about the secondary market, through reprints.

I partially disagree with this. Obviously the DCI shouldn't be disinclined to ban or restrict a card that needs to go, simply because it's valuable. Some people claimed hitting the Artifact lands was all that was needed to hose affinity, but they hit Ravager too. That shows that the market doesn't affect policy. What they should be concerned with is when their policies affect the market.

If people don't understand the system, they'll start to worry about their collection. I think that issue is something they should have to deal with. A quick article with 1 paragraph on each card just doesn't cut it. I'd love it if Wizards would show their thinking behind the recent changes. Doing so would only alleviate people's fears, which I don't think anyone can really complain about.

If you are restricting your goals to merely transparency, then I support that completely.

Smmenen is asking for policy considerations, which I think is incorrect.
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« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2007, 12:22:00 am »

Thank you for the general complements Machinus, but one note:

se there is nothing to compare those complaints to. This argument would be much stronger and more credible if there were big Vintage tournaments to point to.

2) I don't think it's relevant to complain about secondary market prices in a discussion of B/R policy. I also think it's inappropriate for the DCI to have to worry about this. Their job is stability, per se. R&D is the only body that has to worry about the secondary market, through reprints.

I'm not going to recapitulate what I said in the article, but note that I did not argue the point you think I argued with regard to this.  Go back and re-read that section more carefully -- I made a more subtle but related point.   

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« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2007, 12:25:06 am »

I might be the only one posting so far who believes gifts restirction was 100% called for, but so be it. 

... Here goes :p

I'm not going to argue that the timing was awkward to restrict it, but I think this card certainly warranted being restricted... just earlier.

The deck put up insane results over and over again at big tourneys when good players pilioted it.  Its dominance in late 2006/early 2007 in particular was beyond impressive.

You mentioned that it won Worlds and you talk about Waterbury's significance due to its size and stature yet you fail to mention that gifts also won there, albeit with a build not your own.  Gifts didn't just win waterbury either, the winning gifts deck went UNDEFEATED (although some tried mightily to stop the pilot :p). 

The fact of the matter was that gifts was performing very well up until future sight and hulk errata.  You list it as narrowly being the best performing deck in top 8's.
I don't have a problem with that statistic, it looks accurate enough and I don't believe that it being the best performing deck in top 8's was why it needed to be restricted.  As you said, it narrowly beat out long and fish for that honor. 

The main problem I had with the card was that Gifts really wasn't a skill testing card, just in the same way that Trinisphere was not skill testing.  You resolve the card and you're well, well ahead of the opponent.  Trinisphere's dominance was more obvious in that anyone could just go workshop/trinisphere on turn 1 and be well on their way to a top 8 (and god knows there enough random workshop players making top 8's to back this). 

Gift's dominance was different in that you had to actually setup resolving gifts before winning the game.  This involved actually baiting people or coming on out on top in counter wars, but the end result more often than not was the same:

You resolve Gifts, You win the game.

This is different from yawg will, where you ALWAYS won when resolving it.  Resolved gifts meant winning maybe only about 80%-90% of the time (this data coming from just my matches against the deck, which were well over 50 matches playing against it in tourneys)... still not shabby :p

I believe there were less gifts in its prime making top 8 then 4 trini-shop did in its heyday ONLY because there weren't enough solid players piloting gifts.  You did require SOME skill to pilot gifts, where in the days of 4x trinisphere you really didn't really need any prior vintage playing experience to just randomly win (I witnessed this first hand multiple times).  Basically, good gifts players won more with their deck than good players piloting other archtypes with similar results *cough Razz
The main reason for this simply being that Gifts Ungiven was the best unrestricted card in the format for many months... hands down.

Again, was is it the best unrestricted card in the format at the time of future sight's printing and Flash being oracle'd?  Probably not.  But it was only a matter of time before it rose up again in some other build down the road and once again be abused.  Come to think of it, Gifts wasn't exactly extinct in the past two months.  It did actually win once or twice in smaller tourneys even after flash legality, its just that many gifts players converted to flash, which certainly distorted the results. 
 
The fact of the matter is that Gifts had been abused from almost day one of its printing by very cagey players such as yourself and Probasco.  It just took people a while to catch on because it wasn't as direct a kick in the balls as worskhsop/trinisphere/go... but nonetheless resolving a gifts was and still remains to be a kick in the lower abdomen :p

I believe that you're mainly upset about gifts being restricted because, to be blunt, you are very biased for the card.  It did alot for you and you were grateful.  WOTC basically took away one of your proudest achievements because you were a main force in putting that card on the map (Brassman really being the only other person with as much impact on that particular card).  Whether you realize it or not, you helped WOTC realize the decision that Gifts was too powerful.  The card was broken.  How broken could be argued until the cows come home, but I don't think you can say to me with a straight face that it wasn't more powerful than the overwhelming majority of other cards in the vintage cardpool. 

I don't think the restrictions of gifts is something that you should be rallying against because it was bound to happen.  I think you helped make it happen sooner than later indirectly, but that isn't something you should be upset about.  There are plenty of other cards out right now that you can turn your attention to and make just as big an impact on.  You should be proud that you had such a large impact on this card dominating the format. 

For the record, I too am obviously biased against Gifts Ungiven.  Whenever someone is for or against the restriction of a card, there will always be some level of bias towards the side that person is arguing for, whether the person admits it or not.  If a card didn't positively/negatively affect an individual, they wouldn't be talking about it to begin with.
I'll just run my bias right out there:

Gifts Ungiven cost me alot of money.  ALOT (at least 2 Lotii :p). 

It also won me alot of money despite never playing with the card.

The difference between when it cost me money and when it won me money was entirely dependant on who the player was.  If the gifts player was terrible, I won.  If they at least had a clue... I won alot less :p  The better the gifts player, the harder it was for me to win.  Now it's easy to say that good players should win more than non-good players when it comes to piloting the deck, and I have no problem losing to good players.  I have a problem losing to one card being cast by a complete gamut of players ranging in skill.  Again being blunt, most of the time when I lost to gifts I felt like I was the better player, but they got to resolve their card and they have a clue... so that's it.  This is in entirely the same vein as Yawgmoth's Will, except Will wins more but you don't have to counter it 2-3 times.  You typically have to counter it once (if not being recoup'd).

Gifts had to be dealt with often more than once in a game, and eventually, like cancer, it'll getcha.  You can only fend it off for so long when there's 3-4 in a deck.  This is the same as Fact or Fiction except you didn't always get exactly what you wanted with FOF, and you did with Gifts.



I think I made all of my major points on why I felt and still feel that Gifts had to go, although the timing could have been better (i.e. earlier :p).

In conclusion, I try not to pick apart quotes but there was one that just struck me as needing to be commented on:


Quote
I’m 100% convinced that the DCI should have stayed its hand with Gifts.    It could have stayed its hand with Trinisphere, and I’m sure we’d be fine right now.     Seriously: Ichorid decks couldn't care less about Trinisphere and would be mauling Stax right now.   Control Slaver would be doing fine, and Dark Ritual decks would be doing just as well as they did when Trinisphere was around – very well, because they have Rebuild.    I still think the restriction of Trinisphere was the right move, but only because of how badly Trinisphere warped the format.    The same is not true of Gifts.   

I'm 100% certain that Gifts needed to go because your argument here is that it only became less dominant because more broken strategies emerged to replace it.  That doesn't change that 4x gifts was broken.  No, not in the same way that 4x trinisphere was... but it was close in my book.  You say that 4x Trinisphere would've eventually been fine because ichorid would be there to combat it. 

I say present day ichorid wouldn't have made it in time (about 3 years later) to combat 4x trinisphere because we wouldn't have a competitive format right now.  Cards like trinisphere (and to a less extent gifts) have to be restricted now and again so that Type one doesn't become a 'play me or die' format.  It's teetered on that edge so many times in the past but it always manages to avoid being that linear because WOTC is there to bail it out.  Yes, I just praised WOTC.  I can't believe it either.

There's no doubt in my mind that the format will teeter on unplayability again in the future (perhaps sooner than later :p), but as long as WOTC is there to make sure things are rectified I'll continue to play and enjoy this format... and thousands of others will, too.

- Dave Feinstein







     
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« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2007, 12:30:18 am »

Thank you for the general complements Machinus, but one note:

se there is nothing to compare those complaints to. This argument would be much stronger and more credible if there were big Vintage tournaments to point to.

2) I don't think it's relevant to complain about secondary market prices in a discussion of B/R policy. I also think it's inappropriate for the DCI to have to worry about this. Their job is stability, per se. R&D is the only body that has to worry about the secondary market, through reprints.

I'm not going to recapitulate what I said in the article, but note that I did not argue the point you think I argued with regard to this.  Go back and re-read that section more carefully -- I made a more subtle but related point.   


Yes, you are talking about predictability, but you are using market value as an example. I think this is ambiguous and possibly misleading, especially because market value itself has been used as an argument in the past.

I recommend you omit the part about Ichorid tournament results (or discuss the implications one way or the other without premature judgment), and choose a clearer way to demonstrate the dangers of unpredictability.
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« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2007, 12:49:14 am »

Dave,

I'm going to respond to most of your points by just copying and pasting alot of what was in the article already.   This is primarily because I've actually addressed most of the points you made already.  Here it goes.

I might be the only one posting so far who believes gifts restirction was 100% called for, but so be it. 

... Here goes :p

I'm not going to argue that the timing was awkward to restrict it, but I think this card certainly warranted being restricted... just earlier.

The deck put up insane results over and over again at big tourneys when good players pilioted it.  Its dominance in late 2006/early 2007 in particular was beyond impressive.

What we see from these restrictions is a very clear pattern.   1) Some cards will be restricted because they lock the opponent out of the game on turn one (non-interactive, unfunness).   This is Trinisphere, LED, and Burning Wish.   2) Other cards will be restricted in principle of objective brokeness: Mind’s Desire, Chrome Mox, Imperial Seal on a pre-emptive basis.  Buehler warned us to expect these cards to get restricted at the earliest opportunity.   3) Metagame dominance: Gush.   4) Metagame warping: Trinisphere

In most instances, these criteria overlap, as you might imagine.

Gifts doesn’t fit well into any of these.   
    Gifts is clearly not metagame dominant like Gush.   It is a much smaller proportion of the metagame, about 15%.   Admittedly, there were 4 decks in the last Waterbury Day 1 that ran Gifts in their deckshttp: //sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=vin&start_date=2007-01-14&end_date=2007-01-14&start_num=100&start_num=125&limit=25 .   But that is a feature of the Waterbury.   First of all, take a look at the Roanoke decklists a month before: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=vin&start_date=2006-11-19&end_date=2006-11-19  Only one Gifts deck in the top 8.    Secondly, the Waterbury always features a very high proportion of Drain decks, regardless of the archetype.   Take a look at the same Waterbury results two years earlier:
The Waterbury - 202 Players Jan, 2005
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21512

1) Goth Control Slaver
2) Goth Control Slaver
3) The Perfect Storm
4) Meandeck Tendrils
5) Control Slaver
6) Control Slaver
7) Rector Trix
8) Workshop - Staff of Domination Combo
There were four Control Slaver lists in the Top 8 and eight in the Top 16. Control Slaver, also won that year’s previous World Championship, just as Gifts had in this instance.
In any case, if Gifts was restricted for dominance, which it clearly wasn’t, than the fact that Welder or Thirst For Knowledge wasn’t restricted following the 2005 Waterbury is completely inconsistent.   Control Slaver truly dominated that tournament and cinched the previous World Champs.
Moreover, if Gifts was restricted for dominance, wouldn’t that have occurred before now?   Perhaps on Sept 1st or March 1st, rather than June?   In any case, there is very, very little evidence of dominance.   
In short, there is absolutely no evidence of dominance.


.   Gifts has had peaks and valleys over the last two years.   It peaked in March of 2005 then disappeared for a couple of months.  Then I innovated Meandeck Gifts and it popped up again.  Then it went away, once again.   I’ve documented the trend in my Year in Reviews – the general trend is that Gifts re-emerges when new technology is implemented to power it up, but then it fades back away while other decks start to win.  The cycle in Vintage over the last 5 years is that there are generally 2.5 decks in the tier one at any given time.   One deck is on its way up – a relatively new entrant, another is in the middle of its life cycle, and another is in decline.   Last year, Stax was on its way out, Gifts was the middle sitter, and Long decks were the new entrant.  This year, Gifts was finally on the decline and most players knew it.


You can read through my 2006 Vintage Year in review, here is how Gifts fared in comparison to other archtypes:

Here is a tally of all of the decks that made t8 in all of the major Vintage events from 2006:

Gifts (MDG/TFK-Gifts): 21
Slaver (CS/Burning Slaver): 19
Tendrils (Grimlong/Pitchlong/IT): 16
Fish (UW/URBana/SS): 15
Shop (Stax/UbaStax): 14
Bomberman : 8
Oath: 5
WGD: 3

For the same events, here are the tallies for the 1st/2nd place finishers in 2006:

Gifts: 8
Tendrils: 5
CS: 4
Stax: 3
Fish: 2 (all SS variants)
Bomberman: 1

Clearly, by year’s end, Gifts was the best performing deck, but only by a hair.    The metagame is extremely diverse and very competitive.    Moreover, Gifts had just taken Control Slaver’s spot at the best and most played blue based control deck in the format.  Control Slaver came much closer to actually dominating Vintage in 2005 than Gifts did in 2006.   

That is hardly dominance.  That is in line with how the best Drain deck has historically peformed.


You mentioned that it won Worlds and you talk about Waterbury's significance due to its size and stature yet you fail to mention that gifts also won there, albeit with a build not your own.  Gifts didn't just win waterbury either, the winning gifts deck went UNDEFEATED (although some tried mightily to stop the pilot :p). 


But I did mention that:   (I'm assuming you read the whole article - how did you miss this paragraph!?):

Finally, in January of this year, Andy Probasco comes up with yet another radical Gifts design.   For the first time he abandons the Thirst For Knowledge engine in favor of Merchant Scrolls, but he incorporates Empty the Warrens and Repeals into the deck, and he calls it Repeal Gifts.   

And that is pretty much where we are today.    There have been no major Vintage tournaments since January.    Most of the metagame expected that Long and Gifts were probably the two best decks followed by Bomberman, Fish, Stax, and Control Slaver, just as had been the case last year.   However, the recent changes in Vintage with Future Sight and Flash threw that metagame out the window.

Quote

The fact of the matter was that gifts was performing very well up until future sight and hulk errata. 

That might be true BUT:

There have been no major Vintage tournaments since January.    Most of the metagame expected that Long and Gifts were probably the two best decks followed by Bomberman, Fish, Stax, and Control Slaver, just as had been the case last year.   However, the recent changes in Vintage with Future Sight and Flash threw that metagame out the window.

Quote

You list it as narrowly being the best performing deck in top 8's.
I don't have a problem with that statistic, it looks accurate enough and I don't believe that it being the best performing deck in top 8's was why it needed to be restricted.  As you said, it narrowly beat out long and fish for that honor. 


But I didn't say that.  As I said:

Here is a tally of all of the decks that made t8 in all of the major Vintage events from 2006:

Gifts (MDG/TFK-Gifts): 21
Slaver (CS/Burning Slaver): 19
Tendrils (Grimlong/Pitchlong/IT): 16
Fish (UW/URBana/SS): 15
Shop (Stax/UbaStax): 14
Bomberman : 8
Oath: 5
WGD: 3

For the same events, here are the tallies for the 1st/2nd place finishers in 2006:

Gifts: 8
Tendrils: 5
CS: 4
Stax: 3
Fish: 2 (all SS variants)
Bomberman: 1

Quote

The main problem I had with the card was that Gifts really wasn't a skill testing card, just in the same way that Trinisphere was not skill testing. 

But that's not why Trinisphere was restricted:

So, while Trinisphere didn’t dominate, it did make things unfun, non-interactive, and did ultimately warp the metagame around it.   

Quote from: Aaron Forsythe
Trinisphere is a nasty card, no bones about it. It does ridiculous things in Vintage, especially combined with Mishra's Workshop. As I've said in a previous column, we almost restricted it before it was even released.
Now that it has been floating around for a while, the Vintage crowd understands that the card does good things for the format, and bad things to the format. While it does serve a role of keeping combo decks in check, it also randomly destroys people on turn one, with little recourse other than Force of Will. And those games end up labeled with that heinous word—unfun. Not just “I lost” unfun, but “Why did I even come here to play?” unfun. The power level of the card is no jokes either, which is a big reason why I don't feel bad about its restriction.
Vintage, like the other formats with large card pools, always runs the risk of becoming non-interactive, meaning the games are little more than both players “goldfishing” to see who can win first. Trinisphere adds to that problem by literally preventing the opponent from playing spells. We don't want Magic to be about that, especially not that easily. If combo rears its head, we'll worry about it later. But for now, we want to people to play their cards. Really.

Quote
You resolve the card and you're well, well ahead of the opponent.  Trinisphere's dominance was more obvious in that anyone could just go workshop/trinisphere on turn 1 and be well on their way to a top 8 (and god knows there enough random workshop players making top 8's to back this). 


Again, Trinisphere didn't dominate.   I have the data to prove it:

Here's what I said on that: 

Trinisphere was legal for an entire year.  It was released with Darksteel and spoiled in Feb. of 2004.   

Little known fact: it wasn’t until Fifth Dawn with Crucible of Worlds that Workshop Trinisphere decks took off.   You can see this trend in my 2004 Vintage year in review: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/feature/245    And the surprising strategy to emerge with the most success at abusing Trinisphere was Beatdown Mishra’s Workshop decks.   We saw Juggernauts and Mask-Naught perform very well for the next 4 months.   

By the fall, Workshop Trinisphere was half of the top 8 at the Vintage Championship that fall.   Two of the Workshop Trinisphere decks were Juggernaut based and the other two were more traditional Smokestack based.   However, Control Slaver won the whole thing.   In addition, I played a mono blue deck that preyed upon the Workshop and Fish metagame and went undefeated in the swiss.   

Then, Forbidden Orchard was printed and Oath of Druids became the perfect foil to Aggro Workshop.   Here was the top 8 at the next major SCG Event:
Star City Games Power Nine II
Top 8:
1.   Meandeck Oath
2.   Workshop Aggro with Smokestacks
3.   Meandeck Oath
4.   Workshop Aggro
5.   Control Titan
6.   Meandeck Oath
7.   Meandeck Oath (me)
8.   Workshop Aggro
However, within the space of a month, Workshops were back on top.   They found ways to foil the Oath strategy:
Starcitygames, Power Nine III, Nov. 2004
The Top 8 was:
1.   5/3
2.   7/10 Split
3.   Meandeck Doomsday (Me)
4.   Stax
5.   Control Slaver
6.   Psychatog
7.   Workshop Beatdown
8.   U/W Fish (Phish)
While I made top 4 on an anti-Workshop combo deck, Workshops clearly owned the day. 

The final straw apparently was SCG Syracuse, where Kevin Cron won SCG IV with Trinistax designed to beat Control Slaver.   The irony was that Kevin only ran 3 Trinisphere’s maindeck since Control Slaver had fully adapted to winning around Trinisphere. 

Here was the January and February metagame breakdown preceding the restriction of Trinisphere (as calculated by supercomputer Phil Stanton):
10 Trinistax (1,1,1,1,3,3,4,7,8,8)
10 TPS (1,1,2,2,2,3,3,5,8,8)
7 Mud / Welder Mud* (1,2,4,4,4,6,7)
7 Control Slaver (2,3,5,5,5,7,7)
7 Landstill (2,2,2,3,4,7,7)
7 Oath of Druids (3,3,5,5,6,6,6)
5 Dragon (2,4,7,7,8)
5 4C Control (3,4,4,7,8)
5 Fish (5,5,7,8,8)

Although Trinistax could not be said to dominate the Vintage metagame, it clearly distorted and shaped the metagame much like Flash did at GP Columbus.   The TPS decks that you see next to Trinistax were combo decks built specifically to beat Trinistax.   In addition, Control Slaver was pretty much the Trinistax foil.   

The Vintage metagame had pretty much adapted to Stax and was by now used to the concept of 4 Trinisphere Stax.   The outrage had peaked in the fall of the previous year, but with all of the format upheaval around Trinisphere, the move to restrict it lost a lot of momentum.   It came as pretty much a shock to everyone when the DCI announced it restriction on March 1st.   

Although Aaron says that they were tempted to pre-emptively restrict Trinisphere on principle alone, much as they did with Mind’s Desire and Chrome Mox, they ultimately waited to see what happened to the metagame.   

Trinistax didn’t dominate, but it did shape the metagame around it.   

Quote
Gift's dominance was different in that you had to actually setup resolving gifts before winning the game.  This involved actually baiting people or coming on out on top in counter wars, but the end result more often than not was the same:

You resolve Gifts, You win the game.


Again, I addressed this in the article:

.   People argue that Gifts wins the game when you play it.  This is false.   Turn one Mana Crypt, Mox, land, Gifts Ungiven does not equal game over.   Sure, you can set up very solid Gifts piles, but if you don’t have the resources online yet to combo out, your opponent will have a chance to win first or disrupt your attempts to make anything of the meager card advantage you just achieved.  Even a simple Duress can be a knockout.  On the contrary, turn one Mox, Mana Crypt, land, Fact or Fiction on turn one is a much more powerful play than turn one Gifts.   That’s because Gifts is a Yawg Will engine while Fact is a card advantage/digging engine. 


Quote
This is different from yawg will, where you ALWAYS won when resolving it.  Resolved gifts meant winning maybe only about 80%-90% of the time (this data coming from just my matches against the deck, which were well over 50 matches playing against it in tourneys)... still not shabby :p

I believe there were less gifts in its prime making top 8 then 4 trini-shop did in its heyday ONLY because there weren't enough solid players piloting gifts.  You did require SOME skill to pilot gifts, where in the days of 4x trinisphere you really didn't really need any prior vintage playing experience to just randomly win (I witnessed this first hand multiple times).  Basically, good gifts players won more with their deck than good players piloting other archtypes with similar results *cough Razz
The main reason for this simply being that Gifts Ungiven was the best unrestricted card in the format for many months... hands down.


Again, I addressed this in the article:

And yet, in my view, the most powerful unrestricted tutor in Vintage wasn’t Gifts, Grim Tutor, or even Academy Rector – it was and remains Merchant Scroll.   It finds Ancestral Recall, Gush, any bounce spell you may need given the situation, and helps tutor chain for Yawg Will with Mystical Tutor for only 1UU.   

In short: I think Merchant Scroll is a better card than Gifts Ungiven.   It is far from the best unrestricted card in Vintage.   I can think of a half a dozen cards that are better: Brainstorm, Force of Will, Duress, Mishra's Workshop, Dark Ritual, Merchant Scroll, Grim Tutor.

Quote

Again, was is it the best unrestricted card in the format at the time of future sight's printing and Flash being oracle'd?  Probably not.  But it was only a matter of time before it rose up again in some other build down the road and once again be abused.  Come to think of it, Gifts wasn't exactly extinct in the past two months.  It did actually win once or twice in smaller tourneys even after flash legality, its just that many gifts players converted to flash, which certainly distorted the results. 
 

Which is evidence of this point:

The cycle in Vintage over the last 5 years is that there are generally 2.5 decks in the tier one at any given time.   One deck is on its way up – a relatively new entrant, another is in the middle of its life cycle, and another is in decline.   Last year, Stax was on its way out, Gifts was the middle sitter, and Long decks were the new entrant.  This year, Gifts was finally on the decline and most players knew it.


Quote
The fact of the matter is that Gifts had been abused from almost day one of its printing by very cagey players such as yourself and Probasco.  It just took people a while to catch on because it wasn't as direct a kick in the balls as worskhsop/trinisphere/go... but nonetheless resolving a gifts was and still remains to be a kick in the lower abdomen :p

I believe that you're mainly upset about gifts being restricted because, to be blunt, you are very biased for the card.  It did alot for you and you were grateful.  WOTC basically took away one of your proudest achievements because you were a main force in putting that card on the map (Brassman really being the only other person with as much impact on that particular card).  Whether you realize it or not, you helped WOTC realize the decision that Gifts was too powerful.  The card was broken.  How broken could be argued until the cows come home, but I don't think you can say to me with a straight face that it wasn't more powerful than the overwhelming majority of other cards in the vintage cardpool. 


I think on Monday, June 18th, when I unveil my proudest achievement, you'll see that Gifts had nothing to do with it and that there was all the more reason why Gifts shouldn't have been restricted.

Quote
I don't think the restrictions of gifts is something that you should be rallying against because it was bound to happen. 


Again:

The call to restrict Gifts last year was no different from the 2002 calls to restrict Illusionary Mask and Back to Basics, and the 2003 calls to restrict Academy Rector and Bazaar, the 2004 calls to restrict Cruicible of Worlds, Spoils of the Vauld, Intution and Mishra’s Workshop, and the 2005 calls to restrict Dark Ritual and Mishra’s Workshop again. 

In all of those cases, people said it was "inevitable."  Even my teammate Kevin Cron repeatedly tells me that the restriction of Workshop is "inevitable."    That's not an argument for restriction, imo.    It's simply a claim that has yet to come true.

I knew my article was comprehensive, but in answering your points, I didn't realize it was that comprehensive until now Wink

Re: Your argument that I"m biased:  I think if you review my article archive and read through the dozen or so articles I've written on the subject, you'll find an amazing consistency of thought and action on this issue.   Moreover, assuming for the moment I am biased, that is a common fallacy if you are suggesting that in any way undermines my arguments.   It's simply an ad hominen fallacy.   

Stephen Menendian 
« Last Edit: June 08, 2007, 12:57:29 am by Smmenen » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2007, 01:06:59 am »

Wow, excellent posts by both Steve and Dave. Thanks for the those. I am indifferent to the restriction of Gifts, but I am more inclined to agree with Dave on this issue. The card is ridiculously powerful, and while it may not win the game on the spot, its resolution results in a win too often for the card not to be restricted. A little off-topic: Assuming a pre-ichorid/Flash metagame, would it even hurt MDG that much if Gifts were restricted, considering that the deck runs 4 Merchant Scrolls? Could you not fill those 3 extra slots with some draw power to offset the loss and then just Scroll for Gifts when you're ready to go for the throat?

As far as the restrictions are concerned, I think almost all of them, especially the blue draw/tutor spells have rightfully earned their spot on the list. My hunch tells me unrestricting Gush was a mistake and that it will probably need rerestriction, but why not give it a chance to see if it still is the heinous beast we remember it to be? As far as I remember, Workshops crushed GAT back in its prime, and although GAT eventually adapted, MWS.dec was still a very problematic matchup.

One concern I have, that Steve addressed, is Mind Twist. This card should definitely qualify as "unfun". I made a silly deck that randomly nukes the opponent on Turn 1-2 with a nasty Twist. Is it a great deck? Probably not, but the problem is that it is capable of winning games against anything and everything in a very unfun manner (a la Trinisphere). Any monkey can Twist you for 4-5 on turn 1 and hit your mana sources. Is this really the type of gameplay we want to encourage?

Another issue Steve touched on that I've long discussed with my team is the absence of Merchant Scroll from the B&R list. I've never really understood why this card is allowed in multiples. It is a Demonic Tutor for the best draw spell in the game, and finds silly cards like FoW, Gifts, and now Flash. Can you elaborate on why this sucker keeps flying under the radar?

My biggest gripe with the decision made in this B&R announcement is the fact that nothing was done about Flash and Ichorid, which are both highly degenerate archetypes. If we can restrict Trinisphere on account of it being "unfun", then certainly we can neuter Ichorid on the same principle. Flash posts very high Turn 1 and Turn 2 win rates (often with protection). Does that not qualify as either unfun or format distorting (since everyone and their mother is running Leylines these days)?

Anyways, those are my thoughts. Thanks Steve and Dave for very entertaining and well written arguments.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2007, 01:12:43 am by Shock Wave » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2007, 01:08:18 am »

The Vintage Restricted List

I’m going to review all of the restrictions since 2001 for three reasons.   First, it will help you see the full significance of the unrestriction of Gush.   Second, it will provide a backdrop against which to evaluate the restriction of Gifts Ungiven.   Third, this historical review may give us a sense of future DCI action.   

20 pages of great stuff...

What’s next?  Flash?   Bazaar?   Grim Tutor?    Merchant Scroll?   Who knows?   The DCI 8 ball could land anywhere.    I hope the DCI learns its lesson and stops meddling in a format that does just fine without its interference.   

I think the article achieved it's three goals, and with the Meta up in the air understanding how or why cards get restricted (and Unrestricted in Gush's case) is important.

Steve, if Gifts didn't get restricted, would 4GushGifts be too over the top?
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« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2007, 01:14:23 am »



I believe that you're mainly upset about gifts being restricted because, to be blunt, you are very biased for the card.  It did alot for you and you were grateful.  WOTC basically took away one of your proudest achievements because you were a main force in putting that card on the map (Brassman really being the only other person with as much impact on that particular card).  Whether you realize it or not, you helped WOTC realize the decision that Gifts was too powerful.  The card was broken.  How broken could be argued until the cows come home, but I don't think you can say to me with a straight face that it wasn't more powerful than the overwhelming majority of other cards in the vintage cardpool. 

I don't think the restrictions of gifts is something that you should be rallying against because it was bound to happen.  I think you helped make it happen sooner than later indirectly, but that isn't something you should be upset about.  There are plenty of other cards out right now that you can turn your attention to and make just as big an impact on.  You should be proud that you had such a large impact on this card dominating the format. 

For the record, I too am obviously biased against Gifts Ungiven.  W


I completely forgot to mention this, but this is an important point:

This is not the first time that a deck I put alot of effort into was restricted under me.

Yet, this is the first time that I've *disagreed* with the restriction:

Gush: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/5613.html

Lion's Eye Diamond: Look How I voted in Oscar's Chart: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/5980.html

That should be absolutely crystal clear evidence that I"m being objective in this case.   In the case of Long and GAT, I clearly advocated for restriction.   I didn't think it was necessary here.

Finally, I want to re-emphasize that chart:

Look at what people have asked to be restricted in the past.   

over the last 6 years, there have been many, many calls for restrictions that the DCI has seriously entertained.

In Randy’s article, he talked about how they discussed the restriction of Cunning Wish, Chalice of the Void, and other cards like that.    Consider that there have been concerted efforts to restrict:

Illusionary Mask
Mishra’s Workshop
Spoils of the Vault
Intuition
Cunning Wish
Thirst for Knowledge
Back to Basics
Chalice of the Void
Goblin Welder
Academy Rector
Crucible of Worlds
Grim Tutor
Bazaar of Baghdad

And that’s the short list.   

At one time or another, lots of those cards could have been restricted.

In fact, I’ve seen calls for all of those cards by lots of players at one time or another.    In one of Oscar Tan’s article, Aaron Forsythe writes him asking if they should restrict Back to Basics.

I’m serious.   

It was an honest question.  http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/5196.html He wrote that lots of people were complaining about it.   

Darren Di Battista was foremost among them: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/3413.html

Illusionary Mask was utterly broken for half a year in Vintage, and Mishra’s Workshop has been broken as well.    By any sane measure based on analogical reasoning and objective strength, Mishra’s Workshop is stronger than a good deal of the mana accelerants on the restricted list.    Grim Monolith is a joke while Dark Ritual and Mishra’s Workshop are legal.    And yet both Dark Ritual and Mishra’s Workshop doesn’t appear to be headed for the restricted list despite many, many historical calls and complains to nuke them at one time or another.

Why did the DCI stay its hand when faced with these complaints?

They used their better judgment.   


The call to restrict Grim Tutor 6 months ago was very, very fierce.   And now I’m sure the call to restrict Bazaar will be similarly fierce.    Yet, it’s no different from the 2002 calls to restrict Illusionary Mask and Back to Basics, and the 2003 calls to restrict Academy Rector and Bazaar, the 2004 calls to restrict Cruicible of Worlds, Spoils of the Vauld, Intution and Mishra’s Workshop, and the 2005 calls to restrict Dark Ritual and Mishra’s Workshop again.     Too many Vintage players lack that historical perspective to see the clear parallels. 


What’s next?  Flash?   Bazaar?   Grim Tutor?    Merchant Scroll?   Who knows?   The DCI 8 ball could land anywhere.    I hope the DCI learns its lesson and stops meddling in a format that does just fine without its interference.   
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« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2007, 01:50:29 am »

Steve, I read your article all the way through and simply disagree with alot of what you said.  Pasting your thoughts again without actually giving me new answers isn't going to change my disagreement or make me feel that you adequately answered my responses :p

I'm not into the whole going quote for quote thing because it feels like a boxing match, but it looks like I have to directly quote you alot to make my points and get you to respond with new ones :p

So I'll go point by point with you as brief as I can:

Quote
hat we see from these restrictions is a very clear pattern.   1) Some cards will be restricted because they lock the opponent out of the game on turn one (non-interactive, unfunness).   This is Trinisphere, LED, and Burning Wish.   2) Other cards will be restricted in principle of objective brokeness: Mind’s Desire, Chrome Mox, Imperial Seal on a pre-emptive basis.  Buehler warned us to expect these cards to get restricted at the earliest opportunity.   3) Metagame dominance: Gush.   4) Metagame warping: Trinisphere

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Gifts doesn’t fit well into any of these.

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Moreover, if Gifts was restricted for dominance, wouldn’t that have occurred before now?   Perhaps on Sept 1st or March 1st, rather than June?   In any case, there is very, very little evidence of dominance.   
In short, there is absolutely no evidence of dominance.

We apparently have different definitions of dominance.  I saw your data, and I can tell you I ran into the deck about 40% of the time in tournaments.  Practically every major tourney I played in between 2006-feb 2007 had gifts swarming.  It didn't always win the tourney and there weren't always multiples in top 8, but for as long as I can remember it always had good to great showings in the tourneys I played in for that almost 2 year stretch.  The one notable exception I can think of off the top of my head are the back to back SCG's in Virginia at the very tail end of this period.  Gifts most certainly did show up to this tourney in decent numbers nut it appeared by this time that the very small field seemed completely sick of gifts and was ready to fight it tooth and claw.  The room was filled with gifts hate both days (URBana emerged here and still lost to gifts in top 8 on one of those days) which is why it fell short overall on that weekend, but if memory serves correctly a few players still won prize with it such as yourself.  That's literally the only exception I can think of from late 2005 to early 2007 where the deck did not impose its will on top 8 (although it did split in finals on day one).

Now I saw your data, and I'm certainly not ignoring it, but I think you're glossing over the fact that just because a deck doesn't have half of it in top 8 doesn't make it dominant.  To me, if a deck is format warping it is dominant.  A format can have a number of different decks do well and still be in a warped state.  The most recent and obvious example without getting off-topic is GP Colombus.  If you have 300 fish decks (as beautiful a sight as that was to me :p) dedicated to combating one card, and that card still takes home  the tourney win and multiple top 8 slots...you have a warped format.

Unrestricted Gifts was in the same vein to me.  Sure there were lots of decks doing well, but before the past 2 months of flash oracles, unrestrictions and future sight invading the format that card was format defining.  You say there is "absolutely no evidence of dominance".  I say you either didn't play in enough tournaments for 2006-2007 or are just completely trying to change history for that time period.

I played in alot of these tourneys you cited as evidence.  I know what I faced.  I faced gifts.  Alot.  I geared my decks to beat it and worked as hard as I could.  I'd like to think I did ok during that period, but that doesn't mean I felt the format was fine.  I try to buckle down and play in the face of warped/broken formats, I really do.  Sometimes I'll bite the bullet and play in them, sometimes I won't.  It depends on how warped I feel the format is.  When gifts was doing well I felt the format was playable, so I played.  That doesn't mean I felt the format was fine.


Quote
But I did mention that:   (I'm assuming you read the whole article - how did you miss this paragraph!?):

Finally, in January of this year, Andy Probasco comes up with yet another radical Gifts design.   For the first time he abandons the Thirst For Knowledge engine in favor of Merchant Scrolls, but he incorporates Empty the Warrens and Repeals into the deck, and he calls it Repeal Gifts.

I didn't miss the paragraph where you talk about Waterbury... you did mention that he came up with a gifts design in January, but you were extremely vague. 

My point was and still is that you did not mention that Andy actually won a major tournament with that deck despite mentioning the tournament itself.  I never said that you didn't mention Andy and Waterbury, I said that you completely left out that he actually won waterbury with his deck because it wouldn't help your position.  Quoting yourself again doesn't change that :p



Quote
  People argue that Gifts wins the game when you play it.  This is false.   Turn one Mana Crypt, Mox, land, Gifts Ungiven does not equal game over.   Sure, you can set up very solid Gifts piles, but if you don’t have the resources online yet to combo out, your opponent will have a chance to win first or disrupt your attempts to make anything of the meager card advantage you just achieved.  Even a simple Duress can be a knockout.  On the contrary, turn one Mox, Mana Crypt, land, Fact or Fiction on turn one is a much more powerful play than turn one Gifts.   That’s because Gifts is a Yawg Will engine while Fact is a card advantage/digging engine.

I know you addressed this.  Again, I completely disagree with you :p You cite turn one gifts not being auto-game over compared to FOF, but you conveniently leave out that... 

Almost all successful gifts players setup the casting of the card as opposed to just running it out there and crossing their fingers.

People just didn't run it out there because it doesn't win in the same fashion as a turn 1 FOF or trinisphere.  As I already stated, the card did require some setup.  You typically needed to take more than your first turn to setup, but once you were setup...

GAME OVER.  INSERT MORE COIN TO CONTINUE.

Sure, A duress could knock it out... if they didn't brainstorm it back or if they don't recoup it later... or most important-

IF THEY DON'T JUST DRAW ANOTHER ONE OFF THE TOP LIKE A LUCKSACK Razz



My last direct quote I will debate you on for now is this (it's engaging just exhausting :p):

Quote
The cycle in Vintage over the last 5 years is that there are generally 2.5 decks in the tier one at any given time.   One deck is on its way up – a relatively new entrant, another is in the middle of its life cycle, and another is in decline.   Last year, Stax was on its way out, Gifts was the middle sitter, and Long decks were the new entrant.  This year, Gifts was finally on the decline and most players knew it.

As I already said, most people just went on to something more broken like Ichorid or Flash. 
Cavemen killed with stones and clubs until they found automatic weapons :p

To be serious, gifts being on the decline doesn't make it any less powerful.  It went on the decline after R&D errata'd Time Vault (a.k.a. after Buehler got sick of losing to vault/fusillade in the tourneys he played in :p), then it came back in a more focused tendrils build... then it went on the decline again until Empty the Warrens... now it's on the decline again... we both know it would've only been a matter of time until it once again returned and did well once again, just with another set of cards to work with as it had in the past.  Every gifts build revolved around 4 gifts, it just found different cards to be abused each time.

You say that Gifts couldn't work without Yawg Will, but it has time and time again despite the two cards being in the same deck. 

You do not need Yawg Will to win after resolving Gifts Ungiven.

It certainly doesn't hurt to have Will, because that card is also broken(hence its restriction), but the fact of the matter is that plenty of gifts players won by just resolving gifts.  They didn't necessarily do it on turn one, they didn't necessarily have counter backup, and they didn't necessarily have yawg will to complement it.  They just got what they wanted and won, because that's what gifts did.  In a sticky situation?  Grab whatever you need.  Sometimes you could not even remotely choose the right four cards AND STILL WIN.  Why?

Because 4 gifts was just too good.

- Dave Feinstein






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« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2007, 02:23:20 am »

Hi Smmenen,

Thank you for a very thorough and well written article. Even though, or perhaps because, I am an avid Gifts player (both your list and others'), I must agree with the decision to restrict it. It is very very broken, and I guess the degree of brokenness is what is mainly under discussion when talking about restrictions. However, a point in your article struck me as noteworthy, even though it doesn't concern itself with the retriction per se.

You mention that the restriction of Trinisphere opened up a lot of new design space for Workshop decks thus proving to be a blessing in disguise. Hindsight being 20/20, that is of course easy to say now, but what would say the chances are that restricting Gifts will do the same for Gifts decks? To specify: Overall my current list effectively runs 11 Gifts (7 tutors and 4 Gifts) and losing 3 of those could be quite liberating. Inserting Fastbond and Gush would take the deck into the Gush Tendrils direction, likewise substituting Intuitions may prove usefull. Simplistically, is losing the capacity to gifts into gifts offset by the three empty slots gained with which to innovate and take the deck back to the top?
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« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2007, 02:40:14 am »

I think part of the dominance issue stems from how many people were actually playing the decks rather than just how many were succeeding with them.

I actually was like Rich and didn't care much that they actually knocked off Gifts, I just thought the timing sucked, but Dave raises some good points about a eventual restriction anyway. Kudos to both of you for bothering to articulate such detailed responses. Although it might help the readability of the thread if you didn't requote the article over and over Steve.
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« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2007, 03:08:38 am »

Feinstein...sorry, bias comes into play here like you said.

Quote
The deck put up insane results over and over again at big tourneys when good players pilioted it.  Its dominance in late 2006/early 2007 in particular was beyond impressive. 

So if a deck requires skilled pilots to win it's a bad thing for the format??? How is that any different than the period where Control Slaver was dominating the format?

Quote
The main problem I had with the card was that Gifts really wasn't a skill testing card, just in the same way that Trinisphere was not skill testing.  You resolve the card and you're well, well ahead of the opponent.  Trinisphere's dominance was more obvious in that anyone could just go workshop/trinisphere on turn 1 and be well on their way to a top 8 (and god knows there enough random workshop players making top 8's to back this).


This paragraph contradicts with the following:

Quote
Gift's dominance was different in that you had to actually setup resolving gifts before winning the game.  This involved actually baiting people or coming on out on top in counter wars, but the end result more often than not was the same:

How is that any different from the Keeper and Tog eras????
Quote

Quote
I believe there were less gifts in its prime making top 8 then 4 trini-shop did in its heyday ONLY because there weren't enough solid players piloting gifts.  You did require SOME skill to pilot gifts, where in the days of 4x trinisphere you really didn't really need any prior vintage playing experience to just randomly win (I witnessed this first hand multiple times).

So more players became adept. Again you're admitting that the card requires skill to manipulate, how is that a bad thing? It took people a while to recognize the power of the card, and an even longer period to master its use; is that not a testament to the amount of skill it requires?

Quote
The difference between when it cost me money and when it won me money was entirely dependant on who the player was.  If the gifts player was terrible, I won.  If they at least had a clue... I won alot less :p  The better the gifts player, the harder it was for me to win.  Now it's easy to say that good players should win more than non-good players when it comes to piloting the deck, and I have no problem losing to good players.  I have a problem losing to one card being cast by a complete gamut of players ranging in skill. 

You attest to the fact that the amount of wins attained by the deck is directly proportional to the pilot's skill level. Is that not the mark of a "fair" deck? (I put fair in quotations because almost every viable deck in vintage is unfair by definition). Is that not something we want in our format instead of random wins?

Quote
Again being blunt, most of the time when I lost to gifts I felt like I was the better player, but they got to resolve their card and they have a clue... so that's it.
Sounds like you played the wrong deck. Sure you can be the better player, but your deck choice in a particular tourneys affects your matchup percentages.

Again, was is it the best unrestricted card in the format at the time of future sight's printing and Flash being oracle'd?  Probably not.  But it was only a matter of time before it rose up again in some other build down the road and once again be abused.
Which is why I'm pissed off. Gifts was nowhere near its peak when Wizards decided to cut it at its knees. They didn't even give it a chance to prove that it wouldn't dominate in the new meta

Quote
I'm 100% certain that Gifts needed to go because your argument here is that it only became less dominant because more broken strategies emerged to replace it.  That doesn't change that 4x gifts was broken.  No, not in the same way that 4x trinisphere was... but it was close in my book.
But if there are more broken strategies why aren't you complaining about them?

From your posts you just sound like you received the blunt end of the Gifts hammer too many times, and you're sore about it. This was probably due to your deck of choice during the period of Gift's "dominance".
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« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2007, 03:40:58 am »


Quote
So if a deck requires skilled pilots to win it's a bad thing for the format??? How is that any different than the period where Control Slaver was dominating the format?

All he was saying was that good players were putting up the bulk of the numbers with the deck. A bit of an obvious truth to be sure, but c'mon, You know that's a terrible argument and not what he was implying.

Quote
How is that any different from the Keeper and Tog eras????

What was the one terribly broken card these decks were using? Oh right, Will. Yes, I'd think a restricted card vs. unrestricted one would be a bit different purely for consistencies sake.
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« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2007, 03:52:16 am »

First & Foremost, I want to commont on this thread.  It is a great read, no matter your position.  It brings up many good points, but some of the arguements are incomplete.

Now, onto the meat of the topic.

I played Type 1 when I first started playing back in 1995, and I got back into it 2002, so I have played through most of that history.  In fact, 4-Gush GAT is one of my favorite decks of all time.  I bring this up because I, like you, was completely puzzeled by the unrestriction of Gush, and though I love it, think it should not have happened.  But the restriction of Gifts is osmething I personall have felt should have happened 2 years ago.  It didn't.  It hasn't happened until now.  Gifts was going deeper & deeper into the heart of the format, and was becoming almost an auto-include in every deck due to its sheer raw power.

A BAD Gifts player would cast it turn 1 expecting to somehow win the game, as Dave has pointed out.  But a good gifts player would set it up, and then combo out using Gifts.  I know.  I have faced many in our smaller tournaments out here in the South West.  It was not uncommon to see a quarter of the field be Gifts decks.  While that may not be a lot, considering most tournaments were 20 to maybe 30 people, that is still too much of one deck.  That brings it back to the good ol' days of 4-Gush GAT.  At least in my Meta.  So the restriction of Gifts was long overdue in my opinion.

Now, I was a player who tried playing Gifts, and just didn't enjoy it as much as my old Hulk Smash or Control Slaver decks.  It is not that it wasn't good, but I honestly felt it was just a boring deck to play.  I didn't have the fun of pulling some stupid lock out or having Tog get really big & angry and going Berserk for triple digit damage on occasion.  But it came to a head when I had to completely redesign deck sin order to knock Gifts out of the game due to the dominance in my meta.  Now granted, my meta was not a perfect image of type 1 at any time, but it did make a difference.

Now there are decks that force Gifts on the downward swing.  Without the errate change on Flash, and finally someone coming up with a more stupidly broken deck in the shape of Ichorid, Gifts would still be a dominate deck.  It would still be so strong in the meta you have to play it or play against it.  Thats bad & has happened before (Trinistax, 4-Gush GAT).  Both were fixed (Though GAT might have been unfixed).

And also, now what happens if you don't want to play Flash, or Ichorid?  Should combo be the only option?

But what do I know.  I am just a guy who stopped playing for a year or so due to the blandess of playing the same game over and over.  I love new and different decks, and every torunament I went to in the 5 swiss rounds I would face (on average) at minimum 2 Gifts decks, and frequently at least 1 more in the T8 somewhere.  While it wasn't even given a chance inthe completely new format we have now due to unrestrictioons, FS, & the Errate on Flash, but is that neccisarily a bad thing?  I personally don't think so.  Gifts deserved to be restricted, and the timing is curious.  It does raise a couple more questions to me.

Was Gifts also restricted due to something that will be coming out in a set or two?  Or was it just its time to go?  And as we have just seen with Gush, insane cards with insane decks can and sometimes will come back.
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« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2007, 05:32:00 am »

I agree with feinstein, gifts definetly deserved to be restricted...i was not puzzled at all by the restriction of gifts...The card is just obscene in this format.

Some points people have used to argue that it didn't deserve the restriction doesn't make sense to me:
1) Why restrict gifts when flash and ichorid is the new tech?
- So if say 4-LED Long gets beaten by 4-Gush GAT it shouldn't be restricted? That does not make sense, that's more likely to cause something like flash and serum powder to get restriction then to keep gifts off the list...Saying that one overpowered deck shouldn't get neutered because of two even more obscene decks is just plain wrong.

2) The deck was skill-intensive, isn't that good?
- First off, i don't think it was that hard to play, and i felt that it was rather boring to play to be honest, but that's beside the point....4-Necropotence Trix from old extended was really hard to play at times, you'd have to do the math every turn....A deck being skill intensive doesn't necessarily mean that it's good for the format...T2 Ravager affinity was skill intensive as well, but most of the time it didn't matter cause the raw power would let you win somehow anyways.

The unrestriction of gush has left me puzzled though.
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« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2007, 09:00:36 am »


You resolve Gifts, You win the game.


I see your logic in this comment, but with that being said, would you agree that Flash has the same criteria?

i.e. You resolve Flash, you win the game.

The difference is that Gifts required mana acceleration in the form of Ritual or artifact acceleration to resolve, much like Grim Tutor & Necropotence. It wasn't a consistent Turn 1 or even turn 2 deck. Flash needs Mox, Island ---> game over.

Although there hasn't been any major tournaments to prove whether Flash decks are as broken as they were in Legacy, the meta was already shifting towards faster combo. New tools such as Street Wraith, SSG, and Pact of Negation had already made certain combo decks much better. Steve said himself that he didn't think Gifts was "Tier 1" anymore before Gifts even got the axe.

Do I think Gifts was one of the most broken cards ever printed? Yes. Should it have been restricted? Perhaps, but 6 months ago. The timing makes no sense. I don't think it's restriction-worthy at this point.

Gush is an insane card that got the axe. The meta shifted. Now, it's not as strong as it was 3/4 years ago (well, at least until someone finds a new way to break it). Gifts Ungiven is an insane card, and like Gush, it always will be insane. However, the meta shifted, and Gifts wasn't as format-defining as it once was. It seems like the "life-cycle" had already started to run out on Gifts, so restricting it now makes no sense.

The unrestriction of Gush brought GAT back and hopefully made it a competitive archtype again, but it's not going to own the format.

People used to tell me "Vintage is a three-turn format." I'm beginning to think its shifting towards a two-turn format.

With all that being said, perhaps Wizards R&D sees some cards coming down the pike that would make Gifts even more broken, so they just went ahead and restricted it now.

As far as the unrestrictions go, I think it's good that they pulled a card like Gush off the list before Grim Monolith. I imagine that Monolith will eventually come off the list, and Voltaic Key was long overdue. They need to take a look every now and again at questionable cards (like Gush) to determine whether the card still thrives in the current environment, along with a few "safer" cards. Initially, it was pretty shocking, but I think people are starting to realize that it's not as good today as it was in 2003. I would say that R&D will keep Gush on a short leash for the next few months, just to be safe.

Who knows? Maybe R&D will unrestrict Gifts and Fact or Fiction by 2011.
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« Reply #24 on: June 08, 2007, 09:48:58 am »

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We apparently have different definitions of dominance.  I saw your data, and I can tell you I ran into the deck about 40% of the time in tournaments.  Practically every major tourney I played in between 2006-feb 2007 had gifts swarming.  It didn't always win the tourney and there weren't always multiples in top 8, but for as long as I can remember it always had good to great showings in the tourneys I played in for that almost 2 year stretch. 
...

  Gifts most certainly did show up to this tourney in decent numbers nut it appeared by this time that the very small field seemed completely sick of gifts and was ready to fight it tooth and claw.  The room was filled with gifts hate both days (URBana emerged here and still lost to gifts in top 8 on one of those days) which is why it fell short overall on that weekend, but if memory serves correctly a few players still won prize with it such as yourself.  That's literally the only exception I can think of from late 2005 to early 2007 where the deck did not impose its will on top 8 (although it did split in finals on day one).

Where do you play Dave?  The NE.  Of course you will end up playing 40% of your matches against Drain decks.  Didn't you play like 40% control slaver decks a while ago?  Your experience is vastly different from other parts of the country--if the deck truly was dominating (or in your definition--just showing up a lot) then it should have been doing the same everywhere. 

In that second paragraph, replace "Gifts" with Control Slaver and move back to 2004 and 5.  Or replace "Gifts" With Stax and move back to 2005 and 6.

As steve listed, there have been tons of cards that many people on this board have championed to get restricted.  Crucible waste took no skill to find and it was unfun!  Welder is the ultimate mana accelerant!  Well, not as good as the Black Lotus every turn of Shop!  Just think how today would be if we had restricted Welder or Crucible or Shop.  Just because something is good, or even broken, doesn't mean it needs to be restricted.  People had to design new mana bases for Crucibles.  People needed to play with artifact destruction or bounce--maybe even maindeck!!!  Maybe people should have been putting grave hate in the maindeck.  But that's distorting!  Sure--if you use the word "distorting" to mean "change your deck a bit".  It would not be distroting to play with maindeck grave hate anymore than Goblins are distorting to legacy in that it forces Legacy decks to play any form of creature kill. (note, not goblin specific creature kill--but ANY creature kill.  lots of decks use creatures in legacy, just like lots of decks use the grave in type 1.  some are better at using them in both formats, but if they went away there would still be a good reason to use the creature/grave hate).

Quote
To be serious, gifts being on the decline doesn't make it any less powerful.  It went on the decline after R&D errata'd Time Vault (a.k.a. after Buehler got sick of losing to vault/fusillade in the tourneys he played in :p), then it came back in a more focused tendrils build... then it went on the decline again until Empty the Warrens... now it's on the decline again... we both know it would've only been a matter of time until it once again returned and did well once again, just with another set of cards to work with as it had in the past.  Every gifts build revolved around 4 gifts, it just found different cards to be abused each time.
 

That argument is flawed in that almost any card can fit the bill.  Grim Tutor first showed in in Steve's 5c Grim Long.  Then it went away.  Then Intuition Tendrils absolutely dominated the midwest area for about 5 months until it was shown to the world and took 3 slots in Richmond.  Then people saw the deck and how to beat it and it went away.  Then Pitch Long came and kicked the crap out of everything that was played.  Then it was on the decline because of MDG.  Should we restrict Grim Tutor because there is the chance it will come back bigger and badder than ever?  Doesn't shop fit that description exactly too?  4trinisphere aggro, then dead.  Then stax goes into its prime, then it essentially died for a while.  The time is ripe right now with Flash and GAT for it to come back--is that a bad thing?

This move makes me truly scared for Grim Tutor's restriction.  It fuels a very "unfun" deck to some, isn't necessarily dominating but forces people to take it into account, and will usually be an overarching presence at any tournament.  Apparently whether the deck is actually doing that good doesn't matter for the B&R list anymore.
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« Reply #25 on: June 08, 2007, 09:58:42 am »

@ Steve:  As always thanks for being a passionate voice for our format and putting in so much time and energy to its continued development.  I think players forget the importance of the work that you and others like you do which is critical to the format's progression.  However, I don't always agree with your points and hope that the DCI is not easily swayed by the vocal minority such as yourself!

For example, to say that Gifts is on the decline because it didn't top 8 all over the place in "premiere" tourneys is not valid.  What about the many local tourneys in which players walk in the door with Gifts week after week and walk out with the top prizes?  This leaves the local meta-games in a state of play Gifts or play anti-Gifts.

On some of your more potent points:

"He also explains that Burning Wish and Lion’s Eye Diamond were restricted on account of Long.dec.  Note that Long.dec, while incredibly powerful and certainly the best deck in the format, was far from dominant.   Far too few players actually piloted the deck and it never really enjoyed a major tournament win.  It was restricted more on account of what it could do (goldfish on turn one 60% of the time) rather than what it actually did."

You are joking right?  I personally walked in to my local stores week after week with Long.dec and dominated the Top 8's along with everyone else who brought the deck to the table.  The only reason that it wasn't seen as dominate across the land was because Proxy tourneys were not in full effect at the time.  Long was an expensive non-proxy deck to wield.


"And yet, in my view, the most powerful unrestricted tutor in Vintage wasn’t Gifts, Grim Tutor, or even Academy Rector – it was and remains Merchant Scroll."

True, true, true.  So, why isn't Scroll on the radar of players and the DCI?


" I would have preferred to see Gush and Fact stay on the restricted list, but if they are going to remove Gush, then I hope they do the right thing and remove Fact as well."

Yes, to the first point.  And No, no, no to the second.


"Here’s why I’m concerned: The DCI restricted Gifts 1) without metagame evidence to support it (warping or dominance), 2) without doing it preemptively like they did with Desire/Chrome Mox/Imperial Seal based on principle alone,  3) without any complaints that it was unfun or non-interactive – there was no Trinsiphere effect at work. 4) they let it exist past the point that most observers thought that it would be restricted (December), and finally 5) they did it at a time when the metagame was in the midst of extreme change. "

1) Wrong, there is enough evidence at the premier events and definitely evidence of dominance in the local markets, as well.  Just based alone on player musings on boards such as this one.  2) Gifts combos were more complex and not obvious enough to warrant preemptive restrictions.  3) Give me a break.  Gifts Ungiven, GG.  I've seen and heard it enough in my meta that Gifts was not fun to play against. 4) DCI clearly works on their own schedule and they do not have the resources to re-act in real-time to a format that they support with 1 tourney a year.  5)  Yes they did.  But, see point 4.


"The DCI needs to stop messing with stuff.    Vintage is so much better when they let it alone because people can never agree on anything. "  "....I hope the DCI learns its lesson and stops meddling in a format that does just fine without its interference."

So, what is it that you want?  It's easy to state problems.  But, offer up a solution.  Should the DCI call you before finalizing a T1 B/R change?  Do you want them to re-act, or be hands-off and allow the format to be self-governed?  I think the latter is asking for far more problems then the former since vocal teams like Meandeck would wield too much influential power in a self-governing scenario.


@Dave and Zeus-Online:   Thanks for bringing some sanity to a thread that is clearly warped by the passions of owners and players of 4 x Foil Foreign Gifts Ungiven.  It's so evident in some of the responses that people are upset that the DCI took away their Gravy-train that was guaranteeing them Top 8's week after week.

In summary my feelings to the B/R changes:

Gifts Ungiven is restricted = Great Call
Voltaic Key is unrestricted = Great Call
Black Vise is unrestricted = Great Call
Mind Twist is unrestricted = Pushing the envelope.  Let's wait and see.
Gush is unrestricted = Bad Call.  Free card drawing is degenerate in T1.  Especially, when it also adds to a storm count and fills up the GY quicker!
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« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2007, 10:27:43 am »

Steve, this was really cool.  Thanks!

That said, even though the timing was a little off, I agree with the restriction of Gifts.  Regardless of how it was doing in tournaments, it's still two broken cards to the hand and two brokener cards to the graveyard in a format that's okay with cards being in either place.  Gifts the deck (that is, decks running 3-4 Gifts Ungivens) may have been ebbing, but as was pointed out, something like Empty the Warrens or some new control card or some more efficient combo (Aether Snap/Dark Depths!) would come along to push it up again.  Winning will follow the card around no matter how good the surrounding deck is or how good the player is or what the rest of the format is up to because the card is blue, instant, splashable, selected card advantage.

Plus, as you said, Gifts is a Yawgmoth's Will enabler, and one of the better ones at that.  My gut tells me that Wizards would sooner restrict an enabler than they would ban a card, for better or worse.  That said, I don't think banning Will would free up much of the B&R list.  Gifts could come off, and Burning Wish probably, and Personal Tutor.  (Other cards can come off, but Will wouldn't have anything to do with them, e.g. Grim Monolith.)

As far as the unrestrictions go, I think it's good that they pulled a card like Gush off the list before Grim Monolith. If they pull a few cards off the list every now and again, they can test an old powerhouse (like Gush) to determine whether the card still thrives in the current environment, along with a few "safer" cards. Initially, it was pretty shocking, but I think people are starting to realize that it's not as good today as it was in 2003. I would say that R&D will keep Gush on a short leash for the next few months.

I agree that Gush will be fun and interesting, but I'm not sure I want the Vintage metagame used as a test range for "hey, is this card still broken?"  Gush especially is a dangerous card, granted maybe not as much as before, but it's still two new cards for free and is disgusting with Fastbond in play.  It seems unexpected to say the least for Gush to get thrown back into the format like it was.  If it stays off, that's good; if it goes back on, that's annoying.

Also, am I mistaken in remembering that Wizards said they wanted Mana Drain to be the benchmark speed for Vintage.  That is, once Mana Drain stopped being viable hate they would try to slow the format?  Regardless of whether they said that, it seems like we're at that point.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2007, 10:38:51 am by Lochinvar81 » Logged

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« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2007, 10:46:52 am »

     As far as Gifts' restriction is concerned, I think it is justified.
This is not just because Gifts could be an immediate speedy finisher,
or just because Gifts could tutor up restricted cards and utility cards in a pinch,
or just because Gifts could act as a deck's draw engine.

     I think the restriction is justified because Gifts was all of these things.
Gifts could fill any role a control deck wanted, assuming it could reach four mana.
Hence, Gifts allowed a player more options than any other card.

This meant that Gifts was skill intensive; it required the pilot to assess what he wanted to do with the card,
which was hard to do, because it provided more insane plays than any other card.

The problem is that Gifts could fill more roles than any other card,
and therefore, filled that role better than any other card could.

Gifts answered just about every situation:

Task = Win Now --> Gifts for w, x, y, z
Task = Stop Opponent From Winning --> Gifts for w, x, y, z
Task = Build Up Card Advantage --> Gifts for w, x , y, z

I believe this is the problem that Aaron Forsythe was referring to when he cited it's use in GAT and Control Slaver.
If Demonic Tutor was unrestricted, it wouldn't be used by one deck; almost every deck that could would use it in multiples.
Gifts wasn't that different; it cost four mana, so your deck needed to be able to get four mana on the table.

In summary, Gifts provided more options than any other unrestricted card could in it's cost range,
so they restricted it to induce format diversity.

That's a good use of restriction, as far as I'm concerned.
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« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2007, 10:48:58 am »

Dave,

I’m going to respond to your comments to the exclusion of all other comments and criticisms in this thread.   However, before proceeding I want to make a for prefatory comments.

First of all, our mode of debate:  This debate is pointless and cannot be advanced unless one of both of us are open to admitting that we are wrong.    We need a way of keeping our arguments organized and clear without straw manning.   

In logic there is the form of organization called putting an argument in standard form.  I will be doing that with your arguments.    My impression from your general posting is that you often make points by insinuation or inference, rather than explicit claims.   That mode of argument and general approach to debating is not conducive to resolving debate.   People can too easily talk past each other, shift and change their definitions mid-argument, or just selectively respond to what they want to.    Alternatively, people cay say anything they want and assert that it’s true.   Nephitus post is excellent evidence of this.  I’m not going to respond to it, although it is very clearly wrong, simply because it would take me an hour to dig up the data to prove him wrong while he probably wouldn’t even be convinced (anyone who makes such far fetched claims isn’t likely to be persuaded by logical reasoning anyway).   

I’m going to straightjacket our debate into a more rigorous logical form.   

Second, I want to be clear that I think there are some great obstacles to debating you.   Let me name them.   1) You seem to be very loose with your definitions.   Earlier you talked about Gifts “dominance” and then Trinisphere “dominance.”   Dominance is very particularly defined as 40% or more of the metagame (and specifically top 8).   In leyman’s terms: it means you have the “best deck” metagame where the all decks are best decks or anti-best decks.    Metagame warping on the other hand is less strict.  It is the feature of metagame that the presence of a particular deck warps around it.   Trinisphere did this.   Flash at GP Columbus more recently.   

To overcome this obstacle, I will very carefully parse your post and your words.   


2) You also seem to be more focused on your impression than actual facts.   Your mode of reasoning seems to hinge more on your general impression of things rather than actual analysis.   You imputed the same bias to me, but there is no evidence that this is the case and plenty of evidence to the contrary.   Specifically, my advocacy of the restriction of LED and Gush while I was playing those decks.   Secondly, the fact that I speak of actual statistics, while you use your general impression.   

To overcome this obstacle, I will avoid using general theory and stick to facts as much as possible. 

I want to overcome these obstacles, otherwise this debate is pointless because it cannot have a resolution.   While I enjoy talking about magic, this debate is more serious than a general discussion on magic and I’m only engaging it to persuade you of my argument.  If you feel that you aren’t open to being wrong, then I will end my engagement immediately.    On the other hand, if others find your arguments persuasive, I will do my best to deconstruct, and where possible, obliterate them.

Onward ho;

Steve, I read your article all the way through and simply disagree with alot of what you said.  Pasting your thoughts again without actually giving me new answers isn't going to change my disagreement or make me feel that you adequately answered my responses :p

Part of the reason for my preface above is to address this question.   I am going to quote every single argument you make, put it in standard form, and then systematically refute them.



I'm not into the whole going quote for quote thing because it feels like a boxing match, but it looks like I have to directly quote you alot to make my points and get you to respond with new ones :p

So I'll go point by point with you as brief as I can:

Quote
hat we see from these restrictions is a very clear pattern.   1) Some cards will be restricted because they lock the opponent out of the game on turn one (non-interactive, unfunness).   This is Trinisphere, LED, and Burning Wish.   2) Other cards will be restricted in principle of objective brokeness: Mind’s Desire, Chrome Mox, Imperial Seal on a pre-emptive basis.  Buehler warned us to expect these cards to get restricted at the earliest opportunity.   3) Metagame dominance: Gush.   4) Metagame warping: Trinisphere

Quote
Gifts doesn’t fit well into any of these.

Quote
Moreover, if Gifts was restricted for dominance, wouldn’t that have occurred before now?   Perhaps on Sept 1st or March 1st, rather than June?   In any case, there is very, very little evidence of dominance.   
In short, there is absolutely no evidence of dominance.

We apparently have different definitions of dominance.  I saw your data, and I can tell you I ran into the deck about 40% of the time in tournaments.  Practically every major tourney I played in between 2006-feb 2007 had gifts swarming.  It didn't always win the tourney and there weren't always multiples in top 8, but for as long as I can remember it always had good to great showings in the tourneys I played in for that almost 2 year stretch.  The one notable exception I can think of off the top of my head are the back to back SCG's in Virginia at the very tail end of this period.  Gifts most certainly did show up to this tourney in decent numbers nut it appeared by this time that the very small field seemed completely sick of gifts and was ready to fight it tooth and claw.  The room was filled with gifts hate both days (URBana emerged here and still lost to gifts in top 8 on one of those days) which is why it fell short overall on that weekend, but if memory serves correctly a few players still won prize with it such as yourself.  That's literally the only exception I can think of from late 2005 to early 2007 where the deck did not impose its will on top 8 (although it did split in finals on day one).

Ok, there are several claims that need to be untangled.

The first and overarching claim is this:

Me: Gifts did not dominate

You: Gifts did dominate.

Now, there are essentially three subclaims here:

1) You claim that evidence of dominance is the Anti-Gifts Fish decks

2) You further claim that you believe you faced Gifts 40% of the time in the tournaments you played (fitting my definition of dominance)

3) You make the generalized claim that the number and great showings of gifts was dominance.

I am going to systematically refute each of these points.   First with logic and then with facts.

Before I address these subclaims, let me reiterate a point I made in the preface.   Dominance is the best deck metagame.    What that actually turns out to be in raw tournament number is about 40%.    The logictics of getting 40% of any given magic population to play the same deck are much harder than the average magic player might imagine.   We are talking Affinity numbers here.    The problem is that 40% seems much to low to most people to be a best deck metagame.   What they forget is that a 40% GAT actually seems like 70%.   The reason is that GAT, as the best deck (or whatever the dominant deck is) actually rises to the best tables and seems more prevalent than it actually is.    I’m spoiling a bit ahead here but Gifts was actually only about 20% of the metagame, but it might have felt like 40%.  That’s a huge difference from an actual dominant deck.

On to your points. 

Let me address subclaim 2 first, since I’ve just touched upon it.

Into the data!

Here are the major tournaments for 2006 and 2007

1) Waterbury, Jan 2006
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=vin&start_date=2005-11-20&end_date=2006-02-12&event_type=WAT

Metagame:
9 Gifts Control out of 184.   4.89% of the Metagame
2 in top 8

NOTE: For all of this data, I’m including decks that weren’t labeled Gifts but ran them in multiples.  For instance, if a Gro deck had Gifts, I counted it.   

2) SCG VA: Day One
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=vin&start_date=2006-03-19&end_date=2006-03-19&event_type=P9

18/148 = 12.1% of the metagame
1 in top 8

3) SCG VA: Day Two
21/119 = 17.6% of the metagame
1 in top 8

4) SCG Rochester, Day 1 (June)
7/112 = 6.25 % of the metagame
0 in top 8

5) SCG Rochester, Day 2: (June)
5/96 = 5.2% of the metagame
1 in Top 8

6) SCG Charlotte, Day One: July
5/49 = 10% of the metagame
2 in top 8

7) SCG Charlotte, Day 2:
4/52 = 7% of the metagame
1 in top 8

8) August Waterbury, Day 1
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=vin&start_date=2006-07-23&end_date=2006-07-30&start_num=25&limit=25
11/147 = 7.4% of the metagame
1 in top 8

9) Waterbury, Day 2;
5/70 = 7.1% of the metagame
0 in top 8

10) Vintage Championshpi
We don’t have actual breakdown of decks, but:
2 in top 8
While we don’t have actual metagame data, we do have Ted Knutston finals swiss roumd breakdown:
1) 2 Pitch Long
2) 2 EBA (U/B/W Fish)
3) UbaStax versus Bomberman
4) Mishra's Workshop Aggro versus EBA
5) Stax versus BHMC Tendrils
6) Gifts Control versus EBA
7) Long versus Meandeck Gifts
8) Burning Slaver versus DPS (Storm)
9) Dragon versus Gifts Control
10) Pitch Long mirror

Note that that makes there only TWO Gifts decks in the top 20 decks.   That is about a 10% metagame breakdown. 

11) SCG Boston, Day 1 (Sept)
13/117 is 13% of the metagame
2 in top 8

12) SCG Boston, Day 2:
11/77 = 14%
4 in top 8

13) SCG Roanoke, Day 1:
4/47 = 8% of the metagame
1 in top 8

14) SCG Roanoke, Day 2:
5/43 = 11% of the metagame
1 in top 8

15) Waterbury, Day 1: Jan, 2007
22/153 = 14.3 % of the metagame
3 in top 8

16) Waterbury, Day 2, Jan. 2007
8/90 = 8.8% of the metagame (half of these were dry slaver)
2 in top 8

Dave, after performing those breakdowns, I’m actually just furious.    I’m stupefied how you can advance your claim in the face of data.   Your claims are 100% untethered from reality.    You are wrong, wrong, wrong, and wrong a whole lot more.

In short: Gifts wasn’t 40% of the metagame.

It wasn’t 35%

It wasn’t 30% of the metagame

It wasn’t even 20% of the metagame!

It was, at MOST 17.6% of the metagame  - in MARCH 2006.   

At the Waterbury it was at most 15% of the metagame.   


This is incredibly frustrating because people way too often work on perception instead of actual reality.   

You are the shining example of why the DCI should not listen to players and why we need Phil Stanton more than ever.   

You are the Darren Di Battista of 2007 – when Darren claimed that they should restrict Back to Basics and actually got Aaron Forsythe to seriously consider it.  Alternatively, you are the Diceman/Shockwave of 2007, where they seriously argued that Crucible of Worlds should be restricted in 2005.   

If you believe that Gifts was 40% of the metagame when the data analysis I just performed showed that it wasn’t even half that EVER, how can we trust your perception of similar matters?  I’m certain that if I combed through the small tournaments you played it, we’d see a similar pattern.   It won’t even be close to 40% and probably well under 20%.    You seriously underestimated what it takes to get to 40%.

  You thought that Gifts was 40% of the metagame when it was only 8-15%.   Imagine how your perception would be shaped if Gifts actually WAS 40% of the metagame.  It would seem like 80% to you.   Now you know what we lived through with GAT.  And furthermore, you know why it is so unusual to have a truly dominant deck.   [/i]   

Now, as to your point that Urbana Fish was an anti-GAT deck.
How are we to distinguish this fro the claim that Urbana Fish was an anti-Drain Combo deck?    Slaver and Drain Tendrils and Pitch Long are similarly vulnerable to the cards that Gifts is vulnerable to.    If Gifts never existed, Urbana Fish would be perceived as an anti Drain deck.   

Quote
Now I saw your data, and I'm certainly not ignoring it,

Clearly you are, as the above analysis shows.   Perhaps you aren’t ignoring it, so much as you are ignorant about it.   For someone advocating that Gifts to be restricted, I consider that an equal crime.

Quote

 but I think you're glossing over the fact that just because a deck doesn't have half of it in top 8 doesn't make it dominant.  To me, if a deck is format warping it is dominant.


By definition that is true.  But that is a definitional conflation. 

You are glossing over/completely ignoring the fact that I provided a second criteria for restriction based on format warping effect.   That is in part how we justified the restriction of Trinisphere.  It’s mere presence completely shaped the metagame around it.  TPS and Control Slaver were the next two best decks because they were the only decks that could beat Trinispheres.    This was simlar to what Flash did at GP Columbus.   

Quote
A format can have a number of different decks do well and still be in a warped state.  The most recent and obvious example without getting off-topic is GP Colombus.  If you have 300 fish decks (as beautiful a sight as that was to me :p) dedicated to combating one card, and that card still takes home  the tourney win and multiple top 8 slots...you have a warped format.

Yes, but this doesn’t prove that Gifts was format warping.

Quote
Unrestricted Gifts was in the same vein to me.  Sure there were lots of decks doing well, but before the past 2 months of flash oracles, unrestrictions and future sight invading the format that card was format defining.  You say there is "absolutely no evidence of dominance".  I say you either didn't play in enough tournaments for 2006-2007 or are just completely trying to change history for that time period.

Quite the contrary.  I played in over half of the major events during the 2006 year.   And as my data analysis just showed, not only was Gifts never dominant, it was barely ever 10% of the metagame and only more a few times.   
Format defining?  Now we are in the land of subjective opinion.    I think you are on very dangerous ground.
How is it more format defining than:

Force of Will
MIshra’s Workshop
Dark Ritual
Mana Drain
Control Slaver
????

Your claim that I didn’t play in enough tournaments is objectively false. I played in 7 SCGs and the Vintage Champs.   Furthermore, you 100% fail to provide any evidence for your claim that it was format warping.   It’s an assertion with absolutely no support.   
Arguments can’t be logically evaluated unless you provide support for them, nor do they have any logical value without support.   

Your claim, in standard form, looks like this:

Conclusion) Gifts was dominant or at least format definition
1) you think otherwise because you didn’t play in enough tournaments
2) Gifts was format warping to me.

Neither of those is adequate or even good support.   The former because its untrue (furthermore, it assumes that if I didn’t play in a tournament I can’t make a determination about what is format warping or defining).   The latter is just a mere assertion that provides no support for your claim.

I think the assumption that underpins your first premise is actually the problem.   Inverted, you assume that perception is what makes a deck dominant rather than actual data.   

Like most people, you assume that your perception is objective reality.   The problem is that it is not.  Much like the people clamouring for Back to basics to be restricted in 2002, Academy Rector in 2003, Bazaar in 2004, and Mishra’s Workshop in 2005, it is perception not supported by reality. 

Quote

I played in alot of these tourneys you cited as evidence.  I know what I faced.  I faced gifts.  Alot.

I’m sure you did.  But:

1) That does not prove that Gifts was dominant
2) that does not prove that gifts was format warping (in the sense of Flash in Legacy or Trinisphere in Vintage)
3) that doesn’t prove that Gifts was even an appreciable proportion of the metagame

In fact, it is pretty clear that your Gifts matchups are over-represented in your memory for reasons that I can only speculate as to: perhaps you lost more of those matches, I dunno.

Whatever the case may be, the claim that you faced gifts a lot is not evidence of anything.  “a lot” has no meaning in factual reality.   

Moreover, Control Slaver actually DID come much closer to warping the Vintage metagame than Gifts ever did.    It had higher numbers and larger percentages.

Quote

 I geared my decks to beat it and worked as hard as I could.  I'd like to think I did ok during that period, but that doesn't mean I felt the format was fine.  I try to buckle down and play in the face of warped/broken formats, I really do.  Sometimes I'll bite the bullet and play in them, sometimes I won't.  It depends on how warped I feel the format is.  When gifts was doing well I felt the format was playable, so I played.  That doesn't mean I felt the format was fine.

Ahhhhhhhhhhh.

Dave, your claim is this:

Gifts should be restricted because Gifts was broken and made the format unfun for you.

There are many logical problems with this argument.   The  first is what logicians call attribution error.   If it wasn’t Gifts, you would probably be complaining about something else.

Do you want Bazaar restricted?  What about Flash?  And if not those cards, I’m sure you’d be complaining about something else just as people wanted Grim Tutor and Rector and Back to Basics and even Chalice restricted before that.

There will ALWAYS be people who want cards restricted.

Once again, PLEASE review this chart: http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/5980.html

Look at what Brian Weissman wanted restricted.  Look at what I wanted restricted.

Weissman wanted cards restricted that beat his deck.

I actually am one of the very few people in Vintage who can take an objective view of the format because I stick to data and have a long historical knowledge of the format.   If you look at what I’ve actually called for restriction in the past, you’ll see that there is strong evidence for my assertion here.

Quote


My last direct quote I will debate you on for now is this (it's engaging just exhausting :p):

Quote
The cycle in Vintage over the last 5 years is that there are generally 2.5 decks in the tier one at any given time.   One deck is on its way up – a relatively new entrant, another is in the middle of its life cycle, and another is in decline.   Last year, Stax was on its way out, Gifts was the middle sitter, and Long decks were the new entrant.  This year, Gifts was finally on the decline and most players knew it.

As I already said, most people just went on to something more broken like Ichorid or Flash. 
Cavemen killed with stones and clubs until they found automatic weapons :p

To be serious, gifts being on the decline doesn't make it any less powerful.

By definition it does.

Your claim, in standard form:

Conclusion:  Gifts should be restricted
Premise 1: Gifts is brokenly powerful
Premise 2: Brokenly powerful cards should be restricted
Premise 3: It may be true that Gifts was on decline
Premise 4: But being on decline doesn’t mean that it wasn’t’ still brokenly powerful; it was.

P3+4 are liniked with P 1 and P2 to support your conclusion.

The problem is that your Premises are unacceptable.  None of these premises actually holds except for P2, which is so ambiguous as to lose any relevance.   

First of all, most viable cards in Vintage are brokenly powerful.    We can’t just restrict cards because they are “brokenly powerful” – we have to have a reasonable and neutral basis for doing so.   The line between Mind’s Desire and Academy Rector might be hard to spot, but it has been drawn.   

Of course the relative power matters.    Take Back to Basics or even Gush.    Back to basics was seriously considered for restriction, but the printing of Fetchlands made that completely unnecessary.   Similarly Gush; it is now unrestricted even though it is broken.  Clearly relative power matters.

Your comment about club versus machine gun is just silly because there will always be more powerful weapons.   If Vintage is all nukes, the fact that machine guns are powerful is not an argument that they should be restricted.   In fact, it’s an argument that they *shouldn’t* be.    Your point here is 100% illogical. 


Quote
we both know it would've only been a matter of time until it once again returned and did well once again, just with another set of cards to work with as it had in the past.  Every gifts build revolved around 4 gifts, it just found different cards to be abused each time.

So your claim is:

1) Conclusion: Gifts should be restricted
2) P1: Decks that do too well should be restricted
3) P2: Gifts might not be doing well now, but it will in the future

I inserted the first premise because your claim doesn’t logically follow without it.   In short, it is an incredibly ambiguous premise.
But your second premise is not at all a reason for restriction.   Control Slaver has done well in the past and will probably do well in the future, but that is not a reason to restrict Thirst.   

Quote
You say that Gifts couldn't work without Yawg Will, but it has time and time again despite the two cards being in the same deck. 

You do not need Yawg Will to win after resolving Gifts Ungiven.


While this is true, it is true as a truism and completely misses the point.

It’s also true that Long.dec didn’t need to play Yawg Will to win the game.   You could just Burning Wish for Diminishing Returns, Returns, and then B. Wish for the Tendrils and win.   Alternatively, it’s also true that Control Slaver can win without every Mindslaveirng you.   Etc. etc.

So, in standard form, your claim is this:

1) Conclusion: it is not true that Gifts is broken because of Will
2) Reason: You can win without Will in Gifts

That is a truism, but it doesn’t prove your point that Gifts isn’t broken because of Will.

Counterfactually (and no reasonable person disagrees with this): Gifts Ungiven is probably unplayable in Vintage if Yawgmoth’s Will were banned.   

That’s what you miss.   You try to present an argument that misses the point and actually doesn’t at all support your general conclusion that Gifts should be restricted.

=====================

All of the particulars aside: here is the bottom line:

1) People in Vintage have always called for lots and lots of cards to be restricted
Please review the chart from Oscar Tan's article.

2) People who call for the restriction of some cards that are maybe borderline cases also call for the restriction of cards that aren't borderline cases.    For instance, I'm sure that while you wanted Gifts restricted, you probably wouldn't mind seeing at least a few other cards restricted

3) Your view isn't based on tournament evidence (as I've shown), but primarly perception.   Most people's views are based primarily on perception.   While the DCI restricts cards for grounds other than dominance, none of those fit here.

4) The DCI has rightfully ignored 99% of the calls for restrictions historically.   


5) Most of the time that a call for restriction lost momentum, the format ended up being just fine and things worked themselves out.    See Rector, Shop, Ritual, Back to Basics, Crucible etc.

6) This restriction was a terrible call with no logical support.   I dedicated my entire article to showing why this was the case.

7) It brings into question what the DCI might restrict in the future.    What’s next?  Flash?  Grim Tutor?   Merchant Scroll?

Restricting Gifts but leaving many other better cards unrestricted makes little sense.   I can’t see how Gifts can be restricted but Flash, Bazaar, Grim Tutor, and Merchant Scroll not, which would also be a horrible idea.   I mean, Merchant Scroll is a tutor (the best unrestricted tutor) and it is played in GAT, Flash, and most good control decks.  It will be seeing alot more play than Gifts ever did.   





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« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2007, 11:16:01 am »

I'd just like to raise a point here.  Saying that Merchant Scroll is more powerful than Gifts and using that fact as a supporting argument against the restriction of Gifts (e.g., Gifts should not be restricted while Merchant Scroll is unrestricted).  Merchant Scroll is not even more powerful than Gifts; it is just better than Gifts.  Brainstorm is better than Gifts.  Force of Will is better than Gifts.  The reason that all of those cards should remain unrestricted and that Gifts should be restricted is that Gifts, by itself, is better.  Merchant Scroll gets you counterspells or cards; Brainstorm smoothes out draws; Force of Will maintains untenable positions by its force alone.  They are all means to an end.  Gifts, on the other hand, is an end in and of itself.  It costs four mana and, even when you go for a 'control Gifts' or a 'CA-Gifts', typically wins you the game (although specialized Gifts piles like those two examples may be less obvious in how they gave you the win).  Means are typically less broken than ends, and means that glue the format together (like Scroll, Brainstorm, and Force), should never be taken away.
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My old signature was about how shocking Gush's UNrestriction was.  My, how the time flies.

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