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Author Topic: Six of One, Half Dozen of the Other  (Read 134808 times)
Implacable
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« Reply #390 on: August 14, 2009, 11:35:52 am »

Flash: 4-2
Tog: 4-2
Stax: 4-2
Long: 3-3
Gifts: 3-3
BBS: 2-4
Tez: 1-5
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Smmenen
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« Reply #391 on: August 14, 2009, 01:43:02 pm »

Good predictions.

Keep the coming!  

I will spoil one thing: Tezzeret did alot better than I thought it would!

EDIT: One other thing: you were right that no deck went undefeated!
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 01:50:53 pm by Smmenen » Logged

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« Reply #392 on: August 14, 2009, 02:18:31 pm »

Hulk Flash takes it!
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« Reply #393 on: August 14, 2009, 05:46:39 pm »

What are your predictions?   

A) That people will ask why you did seven decks instead of eight.
B) The finishing order will be something like:

Stax
Long
Tez
Tog
Flash
Gifts
BBS

C) You'll have some decent data to use when discussing restrictions of eras past.

Peace,

-Troy
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« Reply #394 on: August 17, 2009, 06:53:07 pm »

Smmenen on Vintage: A Manifesto on Reviving Vintage [/i]

All of the discussion about Vintage has helped clarified my thinking on how to strengthen and sustain Vintage as a tournament format.  It's helped to see all of the misconceptions that people harbor, and especially the reasons for these misconceptions.

I have been making this argument for several months now, here and here.  

There is often alot of discussion about "Growing" Vintage, or "Healthy" Vintage, or "Sustainable" Vintage.  But what does this really mean?

Too often, it's reduced to the view that we need to find ways to get new players into Vintage  or to increase attendance at the next major tournament.    Let me propose something more specific.  

In my view, The Goal for Vintage (at least in America) should be to find ways to sustain 4-5 tournaments per year of 200 players.  

This is goal, for me, is a critical revelation.  

What is a healthy tournament?   100 players?   1000 players?    American Grand Prix's have vacillated, depending on the format and location, between 400 and 1500 players in the last half decade.   No one thinks that Vintage tournaments should or even could reach that size or scale.   The SCG $5K tournaments seem to be around 400 players for Standard events.   If P9 retails around $3500, then how many people at $25 a person would you need to break even?   To me, that is the critical question.  

I propose that if Vintage tournaments can get 200 players per tournament for 4-5 events per year, that is more than enough to sustain Vintage as a healthy, viable tournament format.   At 200 players, you make $5000 at $25 a person.   That should support the price of P9 on a regular basis, and allow for more prizes and profit besides.

It is sustainable, in that it wouldn't create such an increased demand for power that it would cause power to go up beyond that number, and even if it did, entry fees could adjust to $30 a person to compensate.    

it's also enough to keep a thriving scene by any definition.

But how do we get there?

There are only two ways to increase tournament attendance:

1) Recruit New Players
2) Retain Existing Players

It's a simple stock and flows issue:



If you increase the number of new players, you can increase the player base.   If you slow down the number of players leaving Vintage you can increase the player base.

However, both of these things are difficult to do.  Let me take each in turn.

1) Recruiting New Players

There are numerous difficulties with this objective.

 Each of the Magic formats create a pipeline into other formats.  Most tournament magic players enter Magic either via limited or Standard.   Standard is a pipeline to Extended.  Players who play Standard, over time, will become familiar with cards and interactions that become the basis for Extended.  And over time, this familiarity extends to Legacy.    Eventually, players come accross Vintage.   However, the pipeline to Vintage is by far the slowest and lightest trickle.

The barriers to entry are enormous.    The price barrier alone is significant enough to keep the vast majority of Magic players away.  But that may not even be the most significant barrier to entry.    Two other significant barriers to entry are card pool/metagame knowledge and, for lack of a  better term, "flavor" issues.   Even if someone could afford the cards, players tend to be very hesitant to try Vintage simply because it is so alien and strange.    It takes quite a bit of coaxing and confidance to step into a format where you could lose on turn one.   People often need to test before they'll even consider playing in a Vintage tournament, which means they need to know someone who plays Vintage and is willing to test.    There are so many interactions, from understanding basic cards used in Legacy like Chalice of the Void and Unmask, to more complicated cards like the interaction of Mana Vault and Necropotence, the errata on Time Vault, how Mana Drain actually works, and how to stack Smokestack and Tangle Wire, and finally basic skills like how to use tutors like Vampiric Tutor and Mystical Tutor optimally.

Someone in one of the forums reminded us that there are Magic players who may not even be aware of the fact that there are Magic cards with pre-8th Edition frames, let alone obscure rules knowledge like what happens if there is a Magus of the Moon and a Tomb of Yawgmoth in play, or if a Tarmogoyf is Duplicanted. Unlike other formats, where format learning is a natural product of testing for a tournament, the lack of visible tournaments and wizards support is a disincentive to ever actually learning Vintage in the first place. Players do not play in tournaments for formats in which they tend to be unknowledgeable, since they will not feel comfortable that they can compete. Without testing, players will not learn Vintage. And without learning Vintage, there is no way to overcome many of the stigmas and breakdown many of the stereotypes about the format.  Also, Vintage is just too fast and brutal for many players.   People who enjoy attacking with creatures or creature combat often find Vintage distasteful.  Also, there is a perception, not just of a turn one kills, but that Vintage is a format that is mostly luck-based.   That also turns people off it.  

These barriers are all significant.

2) Retaining Existing Players

The problem here is that there are significant life changes that make it less feasible for people to play and test Vintage.   Not to mention, the monetary investment in the format often demands liquidation for other reasons.    Getting married, buying a house, graduating from college: all of these are cited and given as precipitating factors that result in Magic being abandoned.     Moving to an area where people don't play Magic.   Other life events can interfere with tournament participation, the least of which is a demanding job, etc.   This accords with the traditional view of Magic (and Vintage) that people will "grow out of it" as they  leave college and build families.

These facts are significant, and so long as there are Vintage tournaments, there will always be people who quit participating in them for these reasons and more.

However, I believe that much, much more emphasis should be given to retaining existing players than we currently do.   Two feature are significant:

1) We Could Do Alot Better Job of Retaining Players

The idea that people will inevitably quit Magic is anachronistic, but still persists.   It is similar to the idea that 'Magic will eventually die," and the related belief that "Magic is a fad."   17 years of Magic has shown no signs of slowing in the game, and has started to undermine the idea that people can't enjoy Magic for the duration of their life.   As Magic ages, so too does the player base.  

Moreover, our experience with Vintage has shown that the demands of life tend not to be as significant with Vintage as it is for other formats.   Vintage never rotates.    The demands of other formats are not as pressing here.    Once you learn most of the card interactions they need not be retaught.   It's like riding a bicycle.  

We need to get over the idea that eventually everyone will quit magic.   It's an outdated, outmoded idea that belongs to an earlier era.    People may not be able to compete at the Pro Tour level indefinitely, with all of the work that that entails, but there is no reason why people can't enjoy Vintage indefinitely.  

We can do alot better job of retaining players in many ways.   We Can Redesign the Tournament Experience With This Understanding in Mind.  How?  Without being exhaustive, I think a number of things can be done:

Tournament Organizers Must Treat Their Vintage Crowd Like Adults

Adults like being with other adults.   Adults don't like going into a smelly gaming store with little kids running around and obnoxious teenagers hyped up on candy and soda.    Adults don't like obnoxious TOs treating them like children, or judges who are disrespectful.     Professional Adults sometimes cringe at the thought of walking into a gaming store under these circumstances.  Adults like being treated like adults.   That means being respectful in tone and substance.  

Venue matters.  

The nicer the venue, the more enjoyable the experience is for the Vintage player.   The more likely they are to return.  

Attitude Matters

The TO should conduct a tournament with a tone that is respectful.  A TO should never talk down to players or conduct a tournament as if the players are being taking for granted.    

Convenience matters

Is there plenty of parking at your venue?   Is it easy to find or reach?  Do you have a clean restroom?  Is there a nearby airport?  Are you taking account for traveling needs, such as easy access to food?  Have you considered a sensible lunch break?    Traveling long distances can wreck havoc on one's diet, sleep patterns, and nutrition.   Having a McDonalds nearby or a Wendy's nearby is nice, but most adults do not like eating McDonalds.    Most adults will need a lunch break.   These things add to the tournament experience and make it more likely that people will find traveling long distances attractive.

Find Ways to Support your Players: Intangibles Matter

Blocking rooms at a hotel at a discount matters.   Trying to help players set up car pools and organizing car pools for your players matters.   Pre-registration is nice.   Also, things like trivia or trophies, team sign-ups, and other things that are common at Ray Robillards tournaments add to the fun factor.    Vintage players not only like to play Vintage, they like the community.   Finding ways to support community increases the fun of the tournament.  

Timing Matters

A Vintage tournament is not Friday Night Magic.  In fact, most Vintage players can't play Friday Night Magic.   They have girlfriends, wives, and other commitments.    

For most major events, adults will have to take off at least a day or a half day of work.   Setting up your tournament times and dates at times that take account for major holidays with families will increase attendance.  

By having more adults come to your event, other adults will have a more positive experience, and will be more likely to return.  

These facts are not the future: they are the reality now.     The more sensitive that Vintage tournament organizers become to this reality, the better the retention of existing players will be.  


2) We Could Do Alot Better at Enticing Older Players Back Into the Format

Here is something everyone should consider:

Almost every one will quit Magic at some point.

However: Almost Everyone Will Consider Getting Back Into it At Least Once


What happens is that the life event that caused them to quit changed again such that Magic became an option once more.  For example, we are finding that many married players no longer feel the stigma of magic and consider playing once again.

We can call this moment: Re-entry Opportunity.    Unfortunately, too often the re-entry opportunity is missed because the player has a bad experience or finds the format not as much fun as they remembered.  

Look at this graph once again:



I contend that of all the arrows on this card, the one at the top is the most important.  

We can try to encourage new players to enter Vintage, but the barriers to entry are enormous and our efforts will add little to the natural fllow of players who encounter Vintage.   It's alot of effort for little reward.    

We can do more with the arrow on the right.   The Vintage community can do alot more to find ways to keep people from quitting in the first place.   A smaller amount of effort here can lead to greater net gains for the Vintage community.    Call up that player who hasn't played in some time and invite them over with some of your friends for some test games.   Once they get the bug again, they will be hooked.

But by far the greatest rewards in terms of efficiency of effort expended for increased tournament attendance is at the opportunity for re-entry point.  The good news is that the things that can bring players back into Vintage are the same things that will keep them playing it.  And because almost every players will have an opportunity to re-enter Vintage, little effort has to be made to ensure that this moment is a positive moment that will draw the player back into Vintage more permanently.   These players already have the know-how, experience, and often the wherewithall to re-enter Vintage.  All it takes is a little push.

I strongly believe that if the Vintage community is better at Retaining Existing Players and Finding Ways to Re-Engage players we can easily meet the goal of having 4-5 200 player tournaments per year in the US.   It's simple stock and flows.   Slow the loss of tournament players and you will be growing the Vintage scene without even intending to do so just as plugging up a drain can fill a sink even if the sink is flowing at a trickle.  

The problem is that the Vintage community, and not just TOs, are stuck in the past, with preconceptions and misconceptions of the past.   With outdated notions that Vintage is always dying, that the answer is new players, and that we can take existing players for granted.  

It's time for us all to grow up.    And that doesn't mean quitting Vintage.    



« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 07:14:17 pm by Smmenen » Logged

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« Reply #395 on: August 18, 2009, 11:38:31 am »

Great post, Steve.

I like the end goal and I think that is really where we should be headed (perhaps with questions of sanctioned-ness thrown in there, but let's leave that aside for now). However, I think perhaps we should consider possible intermediate steps first.

First, in order to get to these larger events, we have to get them to be held first. Why must we have full sets of power as prizes at tournaments? Why not power for the top 4 with some lesser (though significant) prize for 5th through 8th, say Workshops, Library of Alexandria, two Mana Drains or something. This would allow the necessary attendance threshold to be lower, while still providing significant prize support. I don't really understand why we seem to be so tied to the idea of giving away a full set of power, particularly when we typically only award it to the top 8 and there are 9 pieces of power out there. Doesn't first place already get enough in the Lotus?

Second, another idea I had was concerning major sanctioned tournaments. Right now we only have one: Vintage Worlds. A significant gripe about this event is the prize support coupled with the cost. Very high cost (cost of entry to Gen Con plus entry to the event) plus not so great prizes beyond first place. So, what is better than having one major Vintage sanctioned event? Two, of course. Why not try to get WotC to push one more major sanctioned Vintage tournament throughout the year (perhaps in the Winter months so it would be opposite Vintage Worlds). The cost could be significantly lower if it was a standalone event or was tied to perhaps a major Legacy event that same weekend (on the next or previous day perhaps). Just a thought.
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« Reply #396 on: August 18, 2009, 12:18:58 pm »

Why must we have full sets of power as prizes at tournaments?

Because that means you can top 8 and pay for your trip.  A full set of power is a HUGE draw, much more than giving away Drains or Libraries to 5th-8th.  I'm not saying that you can't do that, but you will get substantially more people with $250-300 cards for 5-8th than with $90-100 cards.
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« Reply #397 on: August 18, 2009, 01:43:47 pm »

Why must we have full sets of power as prizes at tournaments?

Because that means you can top 8 and pay for your trip.  A full set of power is a HUGE draw, much more than giving away Drains or Libraries to 5th-8th.  I'm not saying that you can't do that, but you will get substantially more people with $250-300 cards for 5-8th than with $90-100 cards.

I absolutely agree. My only point was that you only need 100 or so players with this abbreviated prize structure instead of 200 or whatever. It's just a balancing issue in terms of prize support vs. expected crowd; obviously each depends on the other to some degree.
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« Reply #398 on: August 18, 2009, 04:10:18 pm »

Great post, Steve.

I like the end goal and I think that is really where we should be headed (perhaps with questions of sanctioned-ness thrown in there, but let's leave that aside for now). However, I think perhaps we should consider possible intermediate steps first.

First, in order to get to these larger events, we have to get them to be held first. Why must we have full sets of power as prizes at tournaments? Why not power for the top 4 with some lesser (though significant) prize for 5th through 8th, say Workshops, Library of Alexandria, two Mana Drains or something. This would allow the necessary attendance threshold to be lower, while still providing significant prize support. I don't really understand why we seem to be so tied to the idea of giving away a full set of power, particularly when we typically only award it to the top 8 and there are 9 pieces of power out there. Doesn't first place already get enough in the Lotus?

Second, another idea I had was concerning major sanctioned tournaments. Right now we only have one: Vintage Worlds. A significant gripe about this event is the prize support coupled with the cost. Very high cost (cost of entry to Gen Con plus entry to the event) plus not so great prizes beyond first place. So, what is better than having one major Vintage sanctioned event? Two, of course. Why not try to get WotC to push one more major sanctioned Vintage tournament throughout the year (perhaps in the Winter months so it would be opposite Vintage Worlds). The cost could be significantly lower if it was a standalone event or was tied to perhaps a major Legacy event that same weekend (on the next or previous day perhaps). Just a thought.


I should clarify, given the goal that I've stated, I'm not sure that we need to abandon proxies to achieve it.      I realize this is different from my earlier supposition.    I still contend, strongly, that proxies makes it easier to quit Vintage and decreases the level of attachment to it.  But if we can staunch or slow the loss of players in other ways and simultaneously ensure that at that moment of opportunity re-entry, people are successfully brought back into Vintage, then the harm that proxies create will matter less. 

Remember, my argument against proxies was that the long-term costs of proxies outweigh the short-term benefits.    While I believe that there are long-term costs, along the lines I've repeated ad nauseam, the short-term benefits of proxies are also quite real, and my ultimate cost/benefit conclusion may be wrong if the costs of proxies can be mitigated by keeping players involved through other means.   

The idea of having Wizards sanction one other large scale Vintage tournament a year is a good one, and it's one I will propose and push for.   Frankly, I know that Wizards has more formats they'd like to highlight than they possibly could.   But I don't see why they couldn't announce and support a dual Legacy/Vintage tournament on the order of a Regionals or a City Championship once a year.   I think our best bet though is to partner with our Legacy comrades and try to sell the idea of an "Eternal Day" or Weekend once a year that isn't at Gencon, at a rotating location around the US.   

The problem with reducing prize support at events is geographic.   

There are essentially two critical variables that determine whether a player will attend a Vintage tournament: 1) Cost and 2) Interest

Cost includes not just entry fee, but transportation costs, such as gas, and opportunity costs, such as time or vacation days or familial responsibilities forgone.   

As a result, for any given level of prize support, you can essentially draw a certain geographic reach, given varying degrees of interest.

So, consider this map:



With a Mox prize, you might only get people from the innermost circle to attend.

With the prize structure you proposed, half power, then the rest of the top 8 gets Drain level prizes, you might get the second circle to attend.

But with P9, you draw the largest possible circumference of attendees.   Given the state of Vintage right now, you really need the largest possible prize pool to reach the number needed.   

I hope that people consider my manifesto above, and what it means for how we conduct our tournament scene. 
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« Reply #399 on: August 18, 2009, 05:11:17 pm »

I agree regarding geographic issues and prize support.

Regarding the proxy issue, how about a scheme where smaller local tournaments are generally more proxy while large events are generally fewer/no proxy? (Credit to marske for the suggestion). The idea would be something similar to satellite tournaments for the World Series of Poker in that if you have success at the smaller events you get to play at the bigger events with what you earned at the smaller event. I know the analogy doesn't fit perfectly, particularly since one win at a small tournament won't build your entire deck, but this was just more of a general proposition.
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« Reply #400 on: August 19, 2009, 12:16:14 pm »

First off - I really like many of the ideas you have there.  You've done a great job of collecting the ideas that have been scattered through several threads.

I think you are spot on about the Adult vintage community.   

The delicate balance that must be achieved is getting better retention - but not at the COST of Recruitment. 

I think proxies play a key role in bringing new players into the format.  In addition to MTG I also play WoW, and recently, I'm making an attempt to (re)break into the Arena System. 

One of the biggest criticisms of the WoW arena system is that there is a huge divide between the "haves" and the "have nots."  The Arena System rewards you with Arena Gear.  Gear designed with the specific intent of giving you all the desired attributes and stats for being a good PvPer.  A season lasts about 3 months and then they release a new set of gear.  During the season  the primary way to obtain the new set is by winning in the arena.  And every season starts the same way: with the highest ranked players from last season having a leg up on everyone else - specifically because they have better gear. 

Now what is interesting about this, is that the new seasons gear isn't THAT much better than the old (and now easily obtained) last season’s gear.  The issue isn't the imbalance in gear specifically - it’s the skill level between the people who played every day last season and the people who didn't.  The issue is that people have a very hard time seeing that "I lost because they had more practice than me" - all they see is "OMG that guy had the S6 Shoulders!  I got Out Geared."

I think if we were to throw away proxies we would encounter this same type of issue.  In that newer players won't see that they should have done X instead of Y.  They will see "OMG that guy had the lotus0rs!!"   And immediately blame their loss, and subsequent un-fun, with the fact that their opponent was a "have" and they were a "have not".  Thus adding one more hurdle to the already almost insurmountable pile of hurdles barring entry into vintage.

The more thought I put into it, the more I like the idea of giving unlimited Proxies - however you can only proxy cards banned in Legacy.  This is good for 2 reasons:  1 - it takes away the "haves" stigma, and 2 - it means when someone invests in vintage card pool, they also are simultaneously investing in legacy.  This means they have a ‘Plan-B’ if they decide that vintage is not for them.
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« Reply #401 on: August 24, 2009, 10:44:56 am »

I think the most important lesson is the big image, which I will assuredly trot out again in the future, as these debates always seem to arise:




And I will once again say that the arrow on the left is less important than the arrow on the right and on top.

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I have received a barrage of PMs regarding TPS.   What's up with that?   I will try TPS out in the new environment next week and write about it. 
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« Reply #402 on: August 24, 2009, 11:12:27 am »

@Steve,
I'm looking forward to your findings next week. I've also seen a trend in people talking about or asking me questions about TPS (especially after I started a topic about it and wrote a bit about the deck) I think it is indeed still very playable, maybe even better suited to deal with today's metagame with TFK gone.
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« Reply #403 on: August 30, 2009, 11:52:24 pm »

I'd like to write a "Dilemma" article, as was done back in the day.   However, back in the day, it was usually two writers writing complementary articles on opposites sides of an issue.   Instead, I'd compose a single article where I invite 4-6 people to write a couple of paragraphs on one side of an issue.    There are a couple of nice one's regarding Tez.   An obvious one is Sphinx v. Inky or DSC.   But I think the more interesting question is Gifts or No in Bob Tez.    ELD and Itou have said 'no.'   Eastman and others have said 'yes.'   

Maybe I'll reach out to them and see if they'd like to contribue...
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« Reply #404 on: August 31, 2009, 04:38:06 am »

****
I have received a barrage of PMs regarding TPS.   What's up with that?   I will try TPS out in the new environment next week and write about it. 
When is this going to be up?

@the "Dilemma" article,
That sounds like it has the potential to be a very informative exercise, the only problem I'd see is the difference in meta. What sees play in one doesn't necessarily see play in the other. So with that in mind is it really possible to come to a consensus about which option actually is correct? It's not like this is Standard or Extended where you have a "fixed" sort of meta game in which you can bank on every place having roughly the same type of decks with the same cards in them. Just looking at Europe:

The Netherlands
Looks a lot like the USA meta game because most players are on TMD, although we see a very different approach in people switching decks.

Belguim, Stax
More players are likely to play Stax

Italy
UR Fish, European control / Combo style decks see more play.

Sure this is a very shallow way of looking at those meta games but the point is, with this difference present running Tinker - Inkwell can be good in one and running Tinker - Sphinx can be good in another. One could even argue about running Gifts or any other card in the deck this way to. I'd imagine there is a difference to what's being played in certain area's in the US as well, without any of this knowledge discussing which robot or which configuration to run becomes an exercise in nitpicking in my opinion, like discussing which is better: Hurkyl's or Rebuild.... it boils down to preference, meta, etc. So for this to really work out the way you intend imo you'd have to get people from each different meta to write a piece about the subject from their point of view.
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« Reply #405 on: August 31, 2009, 10:14:48 pm »

****
I have received a barrage of PMs regarding TPS.   What's up with that?   I will try TPS out in the new environment next week and write about it. 
When is this going to be up?


Next week.    What in particular are you interested in, regarding TPS?
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« Reply #406 on: September 01, 2009, 02:17:12 am »

@Steve,
Well I can't speak for everybody that has sent you PM's regarding the deck but I'd be most interested in the following:

- What you would change main deck if anything from your previous suggested list
- Some keep suggesting running Time Vault - Key in the deck because of the "oops I win" factor it can potentially have. ( I disagree, I don't think it deserves a spot as it's discussed in the past)
- If your findings regarding TPS vs the meta are similar to my own, if not how far offbeat. (obvious one)
- If you think TPS is still a valid contender in today's meta game.

The deck has seen a increase in pilots and attention and I feel like it has the potential to be a viable part of this meta game but I could be wrong.
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« Reply #407 on: September 03, 2009, 10:40:24 pm »

Whew!!  Article is finished Marske.  Hope you like it.  It will be up on Monday.   It took me hours to playtest all of those games. 
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« Reply #408 on: September 04, 2009, 02:20:22 am »

@Steve,
Well I guess a big Thank You is in order, so thank you.. I think a lot of people will enjoy reading about it because I feel the deck has gathered some fairly devoted supporters in recent month's. I'll be sure to give some feedback on it Wink
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« Reply #409 on: September 09, 2009, 05:21:24 pm »

Very cool article: http://mtgsalvation.com/1109-off-topic-magic-addiction.html
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« Reply #410 on: September 09, 2009, 06:05:58 pm »

Obviously Zendikar review is coming, and I will be writing the July/August metagame report soon, but are there other requests?

It's not like I have a dearth of material to write about.   But it is always worthwhile to have people suggest some topics (like Marske did) that they'd like to see me write about.   
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« Reply #411 on: September 09, 2009, 10:11:11 pm »

I'm a few weeks behind, but this quote stuck out to me:
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I still contend, strongly, that proxies makes it easier to quit Vintage and decreases the level of attachment to it.

Steve: If proxies make it easier to quit because you've invested less, doesn't that also reduce the incentive to quit provided by liquidation of high-value cards? (Or if someone quits, they may not liquidate their collection because its value isn't high enough to make the transaction worthwhile without those marquee cards.) And doesn't it follow that the absence of proxying would make it substantially more difficult to get back into the format? As a less important corollary, the occasional tragic theft of a fully-Powered Type One deck at a tourney would also be the equivalent of a banishment from the format.

I've never owned more than three of the P9. I've been out for a while, and now only own Ancestral Recall. I would never have been able to play in the first place, or to consider ever playing Vintage again, without proxies. With proxies, and presupposing that the nature of the format wasn't a dealbreaker at some future date, a whim and some of my copious vacation time could permit me to play. Without, no confluence of other factors could make it happen.

If the knowledge of and proclivity for Eternal Magic are so rare, why strangle the flow through what you call the most important vector of player supply?
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« Reply #412 on: September 10, 2009, 12:19:18 am »

I think you are looking at it mechanically, and not psychologically.  My claim is a psychological claim, not a accessibility claim.   Specifically: I am suggesting that ownership of cards increases attachment to the format, much as ownership in a stock does.   Proxies reduces attachment to the format.   Not because it's easier to not play Vintage.  People who own Power can decide not to play at any time.   They will just be more likely to think about the format, and express greater interest in it.  

I would never deny that proxies make Vintage more accessible.    I've never said otherwise.    My contention -- at the time -- was that their long-term costs outweighed their short-term benefits.   


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« Reply #413 on: September 17, 2009, 11:16:49 pm »

New banned and restricted list announcement:
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« Reply #414 on: September 21, 2009, 11:30:07 am »

I think you are looking at it mechanically, and not psychologically.  My claim is a psychological claim, not a accessibility claim.   Specifically: I am suggesting that ownership of cards increases attachment to the format, much as ownership in a stock does.   Proxies reduces attachment to the format.   Not because it's easier to not play Vintage.  People who own Power can decide not to play at any time.   They will just be more likely to think about the format, and express greater interest in it. 

I would never deny that proxies make Vintage more accessible.    I've never said otherwise.    My contention -- at the time -- was that their long-term costs outweighed their short-term benefits.   

I think you're confusing costs to the individual with costs to the format. If you interview individual players, sure, you'll find that they each have somewhat less interest in the format, but that's more than balanced by the players like Phil who, without proxies, would never care at all for the format.
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« Reply #415 on: September 22, 2009, 10:03:38 am »

I think you are looking at it mechanically, and not psychologically.  My claim is a psychological claim, not a accessibility claim.   Specifically: I am suggesting that ownership of cards increases attachment to the format, much as ownership in a stock does.   Proxies reduces attachment to the format.   Not because it's easier to not play Vintage.  People who own Power can decide not to play at any time.   They will just be more likely to think about the format, and express greater interest in it. 

I would never deny that proxies make Vintage more accessible.    I've never said otherwise.    My contention -- at the time -- was that their long-term costs outweighed their short-term benefits.   

I think you're confusing costs to the individual with costs to the format. If you interview individual players, sure, you'll find that they each have somewhat less interest in the format, but that's more than balanced by the players like Phil who, without proxies, would never care at all for the format.

Not confusing them - they are the same.  The short-term costs to the format and the individual are closely related.   The lower monetary barrier to entry produces a greater short-term gain in tournament attendance, a gain for the format. 
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« Reply #416 on: September 25, 2009, 12:05:45 pm »

Yes, Apparently Wizards had the bright idea of repacking old gems like The Abyss, dual lands, and Ancestral Recall into Zendikar packs.   
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« Reply #417 on: September 25, 2009, 01:35:06 pm »

Yes, Apparently Wizards had the bright idea of repacking old gems like The Abyss, dual lands, and Ancestral Recall into Zendikar packs.   

How do you feel about that?  For me, I'm calculating the value of buying boxes vs. just buying the cards.
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« Reply #418 on: September 25, 2009, 02:01:32 pm »

Yes, Apparently Wizards had the bright idea of repacking old gems like The Abyss, dual lands, and Ancestral Recall into Zendikar packs.   

How do you feel about that?  For me, I'm calculating the value of buying boxes vs. just buying the cards.
I'm pretty sure these are going to be very rare. Like 1 old card per case (6 boxes of 36 packs each).
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« Reply #419 on: September 25, 2009, 02:58:28 pm »

I've heard that it's 1 in 20 boxes, possibly 1 in 30 or 1 in 40.
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