Banned/Restricted List Discussion

[Yare]

I'd prefer a set of restrictions like this:

Brainstorm
Merchant Scroll
Bazaar
Flash

Unrestrict
the useless stuff

By "useless stuff" you mean...? Just curious what you think in particular.

Edit: The announcement is going to be on Monday. I say this because if you change the announcement page link at the end ("dci20080229a") to anything but "dci20080602a" it directs you to a page that says nothing could be found from the search. If you do it for that day, however, you get redirected to the wizards homepage. Not a big deal, but I thought I'd mention it.

[ELD]

Brainstorm is restricted
Flash is restricted
Gush is restricted
Merchant Scroll is restricted
Ponder is restricted

Damn!!!!

[Smmenen]

Although people in the DCI won't tell me what's going to happen, it does appear that there is going to be sweeping changes to Vintage.  The reason I say this is because they specifically said that they are interested in what my reaction will be.  I don't think I'm breaking any confidences in saying that. 

I'm speculating at this point, but I think that either Scroll or Brainstorm will get hit, perhaps both.   

Wow, these changes were far broader than I even expected.   With Brainstorm and Scroll gone, I can't see the logic behind hitting Gush... or Ponder *snicker*.

It's almost too absurd for serious analysis.   It's just a comic opera at this point.  Just laugh and have fun...

[M.Solymossy]

Well TMD, it was fun knowing all of you....

[MuzzonoAmi]

I agree with Steve. Brainstorm? Seriously? What's next? Force?

I disagree with all of them, with the possible exception of Flash.

I guess I can dust off my Impulses and play ca. 1997 Keeper.

[Triple_S]

I got 3 of the 5 right...and that post was mostly in jest too.  Damn.

[AngryPheldagrif]

  ad infinitum

Because CLEARLY Flash would be far too powerful with it's entire support structure cut out.

Really . . . so does this kill MSPainter by default, too? What's left to REB? Force? What's left to pitch?

I can't even threaten to quit, since I don't play anymore, but really. . . what the heck is the point?

[Mr. Nightmare]

Dear Vintage,

Welcome to September 1, 2004.

Sincerely,

Legacy


What else can I say, but WOW.

[Shock Wave]

While I'm not going to deny a sense of satisfaction I feel for seeing Flash gone, I'm really at a loss for words regarding the restriction package as a whole. Merchant Scroll had to go. Even with Scroll gone, I still think it was a good idea to nix Flash as well. But Brainstorm, Gush, and the most queer of all the decisions, Ponder!? I really think they threw out the baby with the bath water, but I am anxious to hear their reasoning.

[Moxlotus]

Dear Vintage,

Welcome to September 1, 2004.

Sincerely,

Legacy


What else can I say, but WOW.

Dust off TNT!

[nataz]

on the one hand it feels like they went a bit far. Ponder...really, ponder??

That said, it feels kinda good. Lets be fair here. Brainstorm was over powered, way more so then flash. If you are going to hit flash, mind as well keep yourself honest and hit the rest of the blue power. I'm kind of excited to see blue's absolute strangle hold on vintage come at least a little un-hinged. 

[The Atog Lord]

Why the gloom and doom-saying predictions? This is what Vintage needed, and after considering the matter for some time, while I do not agree with the entire set of changes that Wizards has made, I believe that Vintage will be far better off after these restrictions than before. For the past year or so, all of my Vintage decklists have started with:

4 Brainstorm
3 Merchant Scroll
4 Gush
4 Ponder

Now that these pieces have been removed, I believe that we will see new and more interesting decks start to emerge. Testing tonight with Mike, the number of games that end with an early Fastbond-fueled Gush chain was too high. Playing a deck without the Gush engine in Vintage has been, since its return, a terrible idea. I have been hoping to see Merchant Scroll and Brainstorm go. They are cards which see play in nearly every good deck in the format, but are not necessary components in any particular deck. I would have not chosen to remove Gush, but given its ability to end games on the first turn, I understand.

The card that actually upset me to see on the list is Ponder. I believe that the other cards can be removed fairly, on account of their power level. Scrol, Gush, and Brainstorm are so powerful that playing a non-blue deck while they were all unrestricted just didn't make sense. Ponder, however, simply gives decks added consistency and allowed much smoother draws. Unlike Brainstorm, it doesn't result in having three new cards in hand. It isn't able to be abused in the same way at all. It just let you have a more consistent deck and make your land drops -- something all the more important now that Gush is gone.

That said, despite my belief that Ponder should have remained legal, I feel fairly confidant that Vintage will be a much more enjoyable format with these new restrictions that it was before. This is not the death of Vintage at all. This is the start of a new era, but one to which I look forward.

When Wizards introduced the hideous new card face, I was the first to say that it was very bad. And when Wizards started to include Foil cards in booster packs, I was the first to state my objection to anyone who would listen. This time, however, I believe that Wizards has taken a step whose net effect is positive.

[forests failed you]

The restrictions are fantastic.  I wish that they would have hit Bazaar too. 

Ponder seems like a silly card to restrict.  It doesn't strike me as particularly broken.  It seems more like they were making a point than restricting it for any other reason that makes sense.  Its sort of like when Ravager Affinity got the axe from standard and Ancient Den got restricted even though Ancient Den never got played.  They pretty much just restricted all of the Gushbond 4 of cards.

I predict that Vintage is going to see a lot of Darksteel Colossus.

[Myriad Games]

It appears that the DCI has cast a gigantic uncounterable Red Elemental Blast and put a serious dent in the blue mage arsenal. While I understand that the majority of Vintage players are drawn to that most hideous of colors, I'm personally excited about playing Vintage for the first time in a long time. The fact that most decks in the format contained the same 12-16 cards was a bit too predictable for my random taste. But then again, I'm a crazy Mountain Man, so I could be biased. 

Fear not, Vintage community, this format will still be broken, just a different shade of broken then it was before, one with a little less blue.

[Dozer]

I guess I can dust off my Impulses and play ca. 1997 Keeper.

I'm so coming back for that.

[goobafish]

After my initial freak out and my planning on how to sell my collection, I have decided to take it as it comes.

They may have taken out the pillar of most blue decks, but this gives us a great open format to innovate. I am sure blue will not be dead, they just need a new direction.

[jpmeyer]

For the past year or so, all of my Vintage decklists have started with:

4 Brainstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Gush
4 Ponder

[Matt]

Dear Vintage,

Welcome to September 1, 2004.

Sincerely,

Legacy


What else can I say, but WOW.

And guess what, I think this is great fun too, just like I thought 9-1-04 was.

[Yare]

Evidently my offhanded suggestion of a major change was correct (although, yes, Brainstorm had already been suggested).

After having had a night to sleep on it, I think I like the changes. While I was initially a little perplexed as to why Gush got restricted now that Merchant Scroll is out of the picture, I think I still agree with the decision because I think Gush would have been what decks ran to in the absence of Brainstorm and Ponder. Restricting Flash I think was on the whole good; I think it was similar to the restriction of Trinisphere and would use similar rationales for that restriction.

Then there's Ponder. A lot of people seem to be really surprised and possibly put off by this restriction. If you think about it though, Ponder was printed pretty recently. Prior to that decks just had Brainstorm x4. Instead, decks now have Brainstorm x1 and Ponder x1. In other words, Blue powered decks have lost a little more than 2 slots (however you want to approximate that) worth of Brainstorms. While this is big, it's not as unbelievably big as people are making it out to be. There are still a number of cards to put in this slot potentially (emphasis on "potentially," testing will show the optimal choice over time): Opt, Sleight of Hand, Omen, Impulse, Night's Whisper, Accumulated Knowledge. In other words, there be in an impact, but I don't think it should be overstated; there are other choices out there. Yes, they're not as good as Brainstorm, but they're still usable. I give a thumbs up for the Ponder restriction.

That being said, however, I am surprised that Ichorid did not get hit in some fashion, be it with Serum Powder or Bazaar of Baghdad, which are the two most likely candidates in my opinion. My gut says that Ichorid is about to have a field day, but I've been wrong before. Bazaar is just so inherently broken, I feel like if the DCI was ever going to restrict Bazaar of Baghdad (or, dare I say it, Mishra's Workshop) it would have happened this time around.  While the DCI will probably say it's not about the money, it almost has to be. I mean, Flash is like a $2 card, while Bazaar is well over $100 each now. In fact, a playset of Bazaars cost more than a single Mox. Unless Ichorid becomes unbelievably dominant, Bazaar is here to stay for good. Perhaps they'll whack Serum Powder, but I just don't see it since it didn't happen this time.

Regarding Mishra's Workshop, I personally have always had an eye on it, but I don't think it's restriction worthy again, at least not at this time. I'm not saying it's close to restriction, just that it is on the radar a little more than it was before, that's all.

Dream Halls stayed on the list again. I could rehash why it should come off, but that's been done a million times. A little disappointing, but given the changes this time around, it's understandable, I suppose.

On the whole, I think the changes will be good. Even if they aren't good, they'll at least be interesting. This is not the end of Vintage. In fact, it's the beginning of a new era, for better or worse. I am a little suspicious of the fact that these big changes and the new mythic rare thing came out on the same day, as it suggests that everything may not be ok in WotC land, but that would just be speculation on my part. Regardless, I would suggest that these changes not be made bigger than they are. They're big, undoubtedly. But they're not of epic proportions.

One final note (directed at nobody in particular): Just because there were big changes this time does not mean that the DCI is suddenly going to start restricting all of the Vintage staples just because they see an incredible amount of play as 4-of's. I'm talking about cards like Force of Will, Mana Drain, Mishra's Workshop, Fetchlands, Dual Lands, and so on. This is just one event one time. If they restrict something else like that next time around, then perhaps we can go down that road. In the mean time, enjoy the game.

[BigMac]

I have to say I like the new restrictions. It will probably pull me back into vintage. As other people have said, to many decks started with 4 times 4 of the restricted cards. And if they hade not restricted ponder it would just be the brainstorm replacement. This way they cut deep into the few archetype decks that would actually run these cards as well as some combo decks. And WotC has always tried to make magic a two people interaction game, a critter batle game. Not a oh i will win in one turn and you can do nothing about it game. (does not have to be first turn, but mostly in one of the first three turns while playing almost 15 minutes a turn)

Now i am sure that vintage is way past the massive critter battles. However the changes that have been made now will open the road for a whole lot of old and new archetypes. Last tiem i played all deck that were different from the blue brain, scroll, gush decks were wiped. Not because of bad players behind the other decks, but just because the decks were so overpowering. Now all those decks that didnt have a chance will have a chance to come back.
Next to that, people can go back to the drawingboard for all new decks. In the last two years a whole lot of new cards have surfaced and i think new things can be made. Time is the best word for it, people will need to invest time. And as we all know, net decking is so very easy that most people dont work on deck innovations. (i am hoping that the few will outweigh the many here and that innovative decks will surface again)

As long as archetypes like workshop and bazaar decks will not dominate the field those cards will stay as they are the basis of good but not overpowering decks.
Well, just my 2c.