Oath of druids in the current meta.

[islanderboi10]

Yes Impulse is definetly good right now.
I havent tested that kind of mana-base as of yet. I have 2 wastelands in those basic spots.

I will definetly test it.

How has skeletal Scrying been?
It doesnt seem like it would be amazing, but more testing will see that.

Yes, spell snare is good right now. I love how your list runs 12 "hard counters" and 4 duress.

It seems good.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Yeah I'm a big fan of the control package, your game is already great against random aggro, it only seems to make scene to focus on it the counter war.

I added skeletal scrying  when I noticed it was suggested in this thread. It seemed to be a choice between scrying and flash and insight. In testing, flash of insight equated to either a very large impulse, or a very bad impulse, either way, I'm already running 4 of them and searching through cards is pretty covered, what I need now is cards in hand. I've only casted scrying a few times but its been good. It's an instant, it's great with mana drain, -3 or -4 life isn't very relevant(as far as I can tell). The deck had a draw problem, scrying is an attempt to solve it

Honestly, I'm very worried about not running wasteland so any feedback your testing provides on this is very appreciated. The basic islands have the added benefit of making mind censor less relevant, your fetches are better, and your mana base is harder to attack (vs oath people run mind censor as sort of a 2 pronged attack with wastelands, its usually a very good strategy leaving your landless)

smother has always been very good to me, it its everything in mask naught, GAT and fish - ninja, but I'm thinking about cutting it for chalice #4

over all, I feel the deck needs more testing to tell what the right calls are.

[EnialisLiadon]

I piloted my Tyrant Oath list to a slightly disappointing 2-3-0 drop yesterday at Day 1 of SCG Chicago, but before I post my list and thoughts, here are my bad beats stories...

Round 1, game 3 against Oath:  he's running DSC, Concordant Crossroads and Berserk.  I'm going nutz with will, clearing the way for my inifnite turn engine (blessing will prevent Brain Freeze kill), and I duress everything that I think is relevant in his hand.  Except for the Berserk that I dismissed as trash, and didn't use one of my two remaning Duresses on.  He Berserks my Tyrant when it attacks, and I have no way to win before he either will Oath out DSC or Platz or I get decked from having 5 cards in my library.

Round 4, game 3 against GAT with Goyfs:  My hand is half land, and I proceed to draw 4 orchards in a row.

Round 5, game 3 against monored workshop aggro:  If I played my Mana Crypt, I would have enough mana to FoW AND Drain anything he could try to do before the turn I Oath up an Angel to beat his face in.  If I lost a flip, I'd be at -1 after his Solemn Simulacrum swung.  Or I could be content with just having Force to counter something.  I made the wrong choice and played Crypt, and of course lost the flip on my turn.

Gah.  Not that I'm bitter or anything...   The deck was pretty solid for me most of the day.

Tyrant Oath
Mana--24
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mana Crypt
7x Solomoxen
2x Flooded Strand
4x Forbidden Orchard
2x Island
2x Polluted Delta
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island


Engine--7
1x Tidespout Tyrant
1x Eternal Witness
1x Krosan Reclamation
4x Oath of Druids

//Protection--13
4x Duress
1x Echoing Truth
4x Force of Will
3x Mana Drain
1x Red Elemental Blast

//Business--16
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Ancestral Recall
4x Brainstorm
2x Cunning Wish
4x Impulse
1x Time Walk
1x Regrowth

//Sideboard--15
3x Tormod's Crypt (couldn't get leylines before the event  )
1x Brain Freeze
1x Echoing Truth
1x Misdirection
1x Rebuild
1x Naturalize
2x Oxidize
1x Rack and Ruin
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x Razia, Boros Archangel

I really like this build, as there are multiple routes to victory that can win through Leyline without too much effort.  The easiest kill is wishing for Brain Freeze with an arbitrarily large amount of storm, but you can also set up infinite turns with Tyrant, Witness and Time Walk.  With Tyrant, Witness and Lotus, you can bounce all of your opponent's permanents.  I've also oathed up Witness, get back Will, go crazy, Wish for rebuild for mana and storm, wish up Freeze for the kill.  With just Tyrant, 2 artifacts and a wish, you have a kill that doesn't need the graveyard.  Angels from the side not only dodge gravehate, but also keep people guessing.

[Vegeta2711]

The deck was pretty solid for me most of the day.

How does a deck be solid most of the day when you roll out 2-3 as a record?

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I played oath day one and my results were not very good. Sometimes you just hurns (like top decking tyrant, blessing, leyline, orchard, leyline) . I made some bad SB choices, wasted 4 slots on leyline, ichorid is far to low of a meta game force to consider running LL(ichroid is the only deck you potentially can't out play). Always SB 2x SSS, and comboing out your opponent with brain freeze isn't relative with the high amount of aggro in the meta game. running 2x tyrant and bouncing they entire board is going to happen a lot more often, and be just as good. The naught match up was actually pretty good the few times I got paired with it. They seem to just not have enough stifle to waste on your oath because there busy hitting the fetches and naught, aside form that, playing creatures is all they do. Just make sure you play the oath in the SAME turn that you tutor for it. Snare was pretty good, I was never is a position where I was holding on to it thinking "jeez, I wish you'd play something that costs 2", it was hitting bobs, goyfs, flashes, and scrolls.  I'm pretty sure that oath is running to many mana sources and needs something like seal. duress is good, 2 duress and 2 thoughtseize is better.

@enialisliadon
Concordant crossroads? sounds like your pairing were with scrub pairing. You have a very interesting list. I have a few comments on it.
I think running "1 lotus petal, 1 crypt and 7 solomoxen" is on of the reasons your draws were so poor. In the, 0 cc mana acceleration department, 5 moxen and lotus is Plenty. Volcanic and solo red blast just seems really random inconsistent, and taxing on your mana base. If your looking for more control, play spell snare. Also, engineered explosives is very good main. If you'd care to discuss it further feel free to shoot my a pm.

[The Duressed]

Volcanic Island is one of 11 possible red sources in his deck. The reason I would play red would be for as many as two Red Elemental Blasts, Rack and Ruin, and Fire // Ice. It hasn't been entirely out of reach for me.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Volcanic Island is one of 11 possible red sources in his deck. The reason I would play red would be for as many as two Red Elemental Blasts, Rack and Ruin, and Fire // Ice. It hasn't been entirely out of reach for me.

on paper is looks like your just getitng any color mana source you want, but I've found that in reality, your running a low amount of fetch lands in oath and sometimes you only come across 1 or 2 duals needing red for blast can really screw you up. why risk the color screw when there are on color alternatives to red/pyro blasts?

[EnialisLiadon]

The deck was pretty solid for me most of the day.

How does a deck be solid most of the day when you roll out 2-3 as a record?

My victories were quick 2-0's and my 2 of my 3 losses were mostly due to my own errors.  Aside from the game in which I drew an ungodly amount of lands, I had mostly good hands and strong draws.  That's what I meant by solid.  I felt good about my deck, but notsomuch my judgment and overall performance.

Anyways, I was really happy with the Brain Freeze kill, as I was with Witness in the deck.  Not only does it allow you to do crazy broken things, but it's winning th turn you oath (or for all intents and purposes the turn you oath, in the case of Time Walk shenanigans).

I do intend to re-evaluate red, though.

[Outlaw]

Some friends and I were talking about how Oath of Druids is really a 6/6 dryad for the same cost that doesnt require pumping.  We threw the idea around of taking a typical Gat list and taking out 4 dryads, tog, cwish and something else for the 4 oaths, 2 creatures and blessing.  The lands would be swapping around a bit and adding another land for the orchards.  Has anyone thought of having Oath with the gush engine?  The deck needs to get to 2 mana and thats it, the orchards are really only for matchups that dont play creatures actively (GAT seems to always have an early dryad). 

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Some friends and I were talking about how Oath of Druids is really a 6/6 dryad for the same cost that doesnt require pumping.  We threw the idea around of taking a typical Gat list and taking out 4 dryads, tog, cwish and something else for the 4 oaths, 2 creatures and blessing.  The lands would be swapping around a bit and adding another land for the orchards.  Has anyone thought of having Oath with the gush engine?  The deck needs to get to 2 mana and thats it, the orchards are really only for matchups that dont play creatures actively (GAT seems to always have an early dryad). 

Oath with a gush engine has been discussed in this thread. There's a good list posted, I suggest you check it out. I tend to think if your running the gush engine already, why not play a win condition that has better synergy, like dryad. After a bunch of gushing, I'd either want a 10/10 drayd, or a storm card. Going gush crazy then playing an enchantment and passing turn seems like a lot of resource down the tube. You've also went out of your way to play an engine people are packing hate for.

also, orchards are for EVERY match up. You never want to give your opponent any way of controlling when you oath.

[Solomox]

Lately, I've been the happiest with the Tyrant Oath list I presented a while ago.  The only matchups that were surprisingly irritating were BUW Fish and 9 Sphere.dec (but then again, it always is).  GAT is winnable since I run a similar disruption package.  The downside is GAT can just break free where you can't do anything but smile and stare at the ceiling.  Then again, so can a lot of the top decks now, so if you plan on running Oath just accept this as fact and move on.  GAT right now is doing exactly what Menendian said it would: Evolve.  Most decks coming to the top to level the playing field are creature based (TK DeezNaughts, STAX).  This makes Oath more viable than it has been in a long time.  Much better than the days of Meandeck Gifts and Grim Long. 

I stand by another Menendian theory that the most broken card in Vintage is Yawgmoth's Will.  I believe this is what gives Tyrant Oath the edge over other Oath variants right now.  This is one of the few Oath decks that can totally abuse the most broken card ever.  You can really call it a Yawg Win when you dump 75% or so of your deck into your yard, bounce their board and Will back a set of Duress.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is something new, but it can help the Brain Freeze combo (or even Tendrils) actually combo off by getting rid of Spheres and other Storm Stoppers.   

Tyrant Oath is the only Oath variant that I feel comfortable handling whatever sits across from me almost every game 1.  Since I stand by this theory I must back it up with a SB that is more controlling rather than substitute combo pieces.  (1 x Volcanic, REB's, Tormod's Crypts, Fire/Ice etc, Oxidize, Rack and Ruin etc.)  These can be built to a more specific meta.

I use small, but simple strategies against the various deck you may see.  Against GAT I play more like they do and mirror their way of thinking as how to play.  I play a a GAT player who's trying to resolve an Oath rather than a Dryad.  I ususally just try to play a pure control game and resolve a Tyrant, never going too crazy, just trying to keep Dryads and Tog off the board.  What you really need to watch for post board is REB.  Not so much for counter wars, but a well timed one on their part will burn the Tyrant, so naturally I board in a second one to improve the odds. Against STAX you need to play a more combo role and try to resolve Tyrant ASAP.  Keep them off their spheres and welder if possible (and of course Smokestack if you see that horrible horrible brown card... grrrrr.....).  I haven't playtested the TK DeezNaughts matchup much, but it seems interesting.  They have a disruption package that can wreck your card advantage and an early board presence that can gain more tempo than you can.  (Sidenote:  I REALLY like the TKDN deck!!). 

In summation I still believe in Tyrant's the most right now.  None of the meta seems to be handled by Oath right now, but I'll still always have it built.  For die hard Oath players though, this meta seems better for you than it has been over the past couple years of Storm and Slaver.  Tweak, Test and Win. 

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

lately I've been playing tyrants variants, sb 2x sss. Its definitely, the most diverse, and thats needed in this wide open meta. I've actually tested the deez naughts match up. As long as your smart about your fetches, its actually a very good match up for you, Oath was always great against SS, and thats basically half of deez naughts. I'd really recommend running imperial seal. With things like goyf and naught coming out off 2 mana, early oath is absolutely necessary. Seal is a third tutor that dodges duress/thoughtseize. I've lost a few game to needing oath in play next turn with d tutor in hand and only 2 mana on the field because of duress.

[Solomox]

Good point on the Imperial Seal.  I do believe it is important now.  After seeing the decklists from Chicago from day 1 and 2, I must say, WTF?!  Some of that is the most random stuff I have ever seen.  It did well, but once again makes me believe Tyrant Oath is the best one right now.  H3x made a good point.  It's the best in a diverse/unknown meta.  After seeing that it certianly is a diverse meta.  Aside from the day 2 Long decks most everything was creature based.  Oath should be able to come back.  There was nowhere near as many STAX decks as I would have predicted. 

On another topic...  I'm still having a battle of Nix vs. Misdirection.  The meta is so diverse that there are some matchups where MidD is better and some where Nix is better, but there is no clear-cut answer.  I'm debating on 2 of each main deck, but it seems a little too dilluted.  The arguments for both are that Thoughtseize, which showed its ugly head at Chicago, is Misdirectable.  Granted it's a 2 for 2 trade, but if you NEED to protect something you can.  In a pinch I'd rather be Seized than Duressed.  So Misdirection is good.  On the other hand, Nix has proven itself just as useful, Countering FoW, MisD, Gush, Lotus, Pacts, etc.  Nix is never really a dead card in any matchup.  With the fact that Oath is good against random Aggro, I think it needs to be even MORE controlling. 

Could it be time to bring Chalice's back to the main deck?  Storm has showed it's face again, placing 3 in top 8 on day 2.  Chalice on 1 is good against DeezNaughts.  Like, really good.  You can play around Chalice with Tyrant Oath.  I was running 4 Mana Drains and an Academy.  I've hard casted Tyrant several times to get around Chalice @ 2.  (I know it stops Mana Drain, but whatever.)  All in all it seems like a good time for Oath.  More testing needs to be done, but every top 8 shifts the metagame so much that Tyrant Oath will be in a state of flux for a while now.  It does, however, seem that Oath will have to change a few cards at most.  Keep trying fellow Oathers!

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I've sb'd 4 chalice, it seems pretty solid in bored. main deck its just not as good as spell snare, one thing I noticed this weekend is that I always had something to snare in just about every match up. Chalice at one is week against scroll decks, and chalice at two just gets played around by things like aether vial in other match ups.

nix/mis d?
Nix and misd both have a limited number of targets. Misdirection requires a hit to your card advantage, at the benefit of being a turn faster/ free. between the 2, right now I'd choose misdirecting simple because of thoughtseize. Personally I'm very happy running the snare, but I've already mentioned that. You mentioned chalice at 2 is good except you have to hard cast titan to get around it, snare is a surprise chalice @2!

Chalice at one isn't as good as you'd think against deez naughts, dark confidant/goyf beats will just end up getting you. The deck has two sides to it, and chalice only hits one. Tyrant answers both.

[master_p]

Is misdirectioning a thoughseize really even any good though? Duress and thoughsieze are pretty much solely used to clear out opponents disruption to resolve your own bombs. More likely than not misdirection is going to be a pretty solid candidate to get nabbed with thoughsieze in the first place. Unless you have a card they absolutely cannot under any circumstances let them take I'd be inclined to just take the one for one instead of the 2 for 2.

[Solomox]

Misdirecting a Thoughtseize is not something you will do every time one is played and you have the Misdirection and the blue card to pitch.  It follows the same principal of playing FoW on a Duress.  It is a bad play UNLESS you need to protect a vital card.  If you feel that the Thoughtseize resolving is not a problem, then let it roll.  At the same time though, let's say I have something in my hand that I want protected badly.  I have a FoW, Misdirection and a blue card to pitch.  Naturally it's better to go for the 2 for 2 trade than the 2 for 1 trade.  It's not a situation you will see every time though.  The point is that the fact that it is Misdirectable means that you can simply have another option presented to you.  I'd much rather be able to not only counter it, but get to look at their hand and make them pitch a card.

There is no definitive answer to the situation of Thoughseize vs. Duress.  Sometimes Duress will be better, sometimes Thoughseize.  It is all going to depend on board presence, and card's in hand.  It's like someone saying, "if that Mana Drain had just been a Counterspell I wouldn't have died from mana burn."  It's going to be up to the player playing the Thoughtseize to decide the right time to play it, and it will be the opponent's call when to counter or Misdirect.  What I'm trying to get at is that there's no clear cut answer.  It is a question that can only be answered in the context of the current game state.

[Skadrian]

if they play the thoughtseize only to protect the bomb they want to play misdirecting it seems great, as you will be able to take their bomb away.

[Daenyth]

if they play the thoughtseize only to protect the bomb they want to play misdirecting it seems great, as you will be able to take their bomb away.

Actually it's the caster of thoughtseize who decides what card to take, even if it's misdirected.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I'm not  fan of running misdirection at all right now, I'm just saying I'd rather it over nix because its an extra free counter to protect your bombs, especially in the case of thoughtseize, which seems to have found a home in combo variants, and pretty much everything, where duress a 2 for 2 trade is absolutely game ruining for them early on.

[Irenicus]

@ Thoughtseize being misdirected:

I seems like some of you don't know that you don't have to pick a card. Therefore Thoughtseize being misdirected isn't as bad as some people tell you.

[squeegee]

@ Thoughtseize being misdirected:

I seems like some of you don't know that you don't have to pick a card. Therefore Thoughtseize being misdirected isn't as bad as some people tell you.

Are you sure about that, it doesn't say "you may" pick a card, it says "you choose a card from that players hand"

[Solomox]

It sounds like I am being misunderstood.  My apologies.  I was half asleep when I posted last time.  What I meant was, Misdirecting a Thoughtseize is better than using FoW on it.  It just happens to have the added bonus of them revealing their hand.  It just allows you additional information.  If they have a target, THEY do have to pick one and it is their choice.  If they don't then you're probably a little better off then they are.  I'm still a fan of Misdirection.

[Irenicus]

Yeah I about that. It got confirmed by 3 Judges (one LvL4). You don't have to pick a card, because it says non-land card. The reasoning sounds stupid, but it's the same with tutors. With Demonic you have to find a card, with Mystical you don't.
Another Example would be Nightmare Void and Thoughtseize.

[Solomox]

So... the judge ruled that if you Misdirect their Thoughtseize, the do NOT have to discard a non-land card if they have one?   Um.... what?  If that's the case then Thoughtseize is SOOOOOOOO good.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Yeah I about that. It got confirmed by 3 Judges (one LvL4). You don't have to pick a card, because it says non-land card. The reasoning sounds stupid, but it's the same with tutors. With Demonic you have to find a card, with Mystical you don't.
Another Example would be Nightmare Void and Thoughtseize.

That's actually very interesting, thanks for the info! It might be time to cut the remaining two duress for thoughtseize in oath builds.

[Clariax]

@ Thoughtseize being misdirected:

I seems like some of you don't know that you don't have to pick a card. Therefore Thoughtseize being misdirected isn't as bad as some people tell you.

This is not correct.  Info on this may be found here.

[Solomox]

Thank you for the ruling!  I got a little scared for a minute there.  Thoughtseize is now a little more manageable.

[Benie Bederios]

Hi,

I normally don't post in the Vintage part, so correct me if this in the wrong place.

I normally play Legacy but there is a Vintage tournament comming up. Before then, I can't get the full set of power( maybe 1 or 2 moxen definatly no big blue or Lotus.) Is it worth to play this deck budget. I do own every other card including Mana Drain and Imperial Seal. Proxies aren't alowed so not all deck will be fully powered( allthough most of them have some power)

Is the Tidepout version worth it without the moxen. Yawgmoth's Will is alot weaker if you only can return a Chalice, Lotus Petal, Chrome Mox, Mana Crypt and Sol ring. That's 3UU in mana and you can't do much with that, It's not even enough for Cunning Wish -> Brain Freeze and if you do it's only 21 cards. Is it possible to run Fastbond to compensate this?

Also at hvndr3d y34r h3x:
Is Drain needed in your list. Without Thirst for Knowledge and Chalice of the Void, I don't know where you have to pump your mana in. Seems more logical to take Mana Leak with an easier manacost.

Anyway I don't want a list, I just want your opinion about it. I couldn't find a thread of budget decks so I just posted it here.

BB

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

People ask me about drain all the time. Some times you burn on drain. It even happens to deck designed specifically to utilize mana drain, but there are a few things to keep in mind. In vintage loosing life is for the most part irrelevant, stabilizing is key. And drain allows you to go broken, it opens up certain lines of play that can win you the game where counter spell/ mana leak can not. Such plays include  hard casting your creatures, or draining you opponent thirst and playing impulse d tutor oath off three lands, or keep counter back up when casting oath, or draining an opponents stax piece to break through the sphere's.

I'd say playing the deck functions un-powered a lot better than most other decks. At its heart oath is a 2 card combo, and one piece is an counteracting land. not to mention your opponent often fills that other piece of the puzzle for you. You'll definitely need to tweak the mana base, I wouldn't bother with chrome mox, you cards in hand are pretty important, and mana crypt combined with token beats might beat you. you've taken a lot of speed out of the deck with out moxen, statistically lightning bolting your self every other turn doesn't seem to solid. I'd give lotus petal a try, add a fetch or 2 and an underground sea, and switch to the more fail safe akroma/razia (I'd imagine in your meta they're often a two turn clock with the full 18), with few moxen I don't think you'll be able to utilize tyrant. Sol ring might be a good call

fastbond? with out the gush engine, fastbond will often be a dead card after you 1st or 2nd turn I wouldn't bother with it.

goodluck

[Everrid1234]

I think the problem about Oath-deck is its high dependance on Oath of Druids.
Wow. What an insight.
But: It is the only (!) piece that lets your deck go off and thats its biggest issue. Sure, its nice to have such a small amount of combo-cards occupying space in the deck.
But this is the bottleneck, to get this Oath out on any cost. Tendrils can go off by different routes or even just bring ETW for storm 4-5.

A Meddling Mage can be a big issue, Chalice on 2 etc.
Have you ever tried "Show and Tell". I know, you need the Tyrant on hand and must then go up to 3-4 Tyrants. But maybe as a 1-or 2-of ? 2nd win route.

Another comment: I would leave out the combo-route because once Oath triggers you will win with a very high possibility. The slots are wasted space. You can even not be sure that you get a crappy E. Witness out with 4 cards in the GY. Just go for Tyrant and don't try to be cool