Oath of druids in the current meta.

[Nehptis]

the sb is still in flux but I’ve decided it needs 2x SSS and 4x leyline much to my dismay. Any suggestions would be appreciated

I have yet to test the gat matchup, and this build can get to the 2-0 bracket easily so it’s an important thing to test. I feel this build is the summation of the current consensus of this thread and everyone one is running a similar list, running the best of the best in everyone’s testing. So if anyone has any numbers or sb strategy for this I’d appreciate a post. I’d imagine running the same engine a win condition that beats there’s and more control means it shouldn’t be too hard.

2 SSS are a must in my testing as they simply turn the tides on any type of STP / bounce hate
Ever since the intro of Flash Leylines have never left my board.  I don't see a decent matchup against Flash without them.  They of course also deal with that random Ichorid player in your meta.  But, often overlooked is how good they can be against Storm combo.  Yawg Will is still the cornerstone to Storm combo.  Especially Trendils vs. ETW combo.  The Leylines either force the combo player to play around it, which means more time for you.  Or the Leylines force the opponent to search for a bounce spell, which again means more time for you.

The rest of my Sideboard consists of Oxidize, Smother and meta game cards.  So, IMO the best non-wish board contains:

2 SSS
4 Leyline
X Oxidze
X Smother
X Metagame cards

Regarding GAT, I too am looking for answers from both a MD and SB perspective.  GAT is fast, efficient and controlling.  That's a triple threat in my book.  I've tried upping the counters and/or using Duress/Thoughtseize.  But, that just made my other matchups worse.  I tried upping the Wastes and using Loam.  Not helpful.  I've run up 2 MD Smother and 2 Spell Snare.  This was the best config for GAT but it did make other matches (Superlong) worse.

[Rock Lee]

Here's the side I've been using recently:

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Island
SB: 1  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4  Oxidize
SB: 1  Blazing Archon
SB: 1  Sundering Titan
SB: 1  Platinum Angel
SB: 3  Pithing Needle
SB: 3  Duress

Personally I consider it the most optimal side at the moment. You don't skimp on any matchups. The highly played decks receive appropriate amounts of hate. The harder matchups are smoothed out. Your answers are almost all 1 CmC, as they should be, and you don't clog your deck up with dead cards.

While I don't believe there is a perfect Oath sideboard, I believe a core of this is necessary:

SB: 3  Oxidize
SB: 1  Platinum Angel
SB: 3  Pithing Needle
SB: 3  Duress

Anything outside this is up to your discretion, but these cards answer your combo oriented problem-childs, Oath's only glaring blindside. The 3x Duress addition to this core is new, replacing 3x Extirpate previously. I feel Duress plays to my play-style, while giving me answers against the specific decks I need it against. Extirpate could easily fit this role for your own builds' feel.

I cannot express the benefits of Blazing Archon & Sundering Titan. The Island comes in more than you would think. Additionally, the Tormod's Crypt is there as final bolstering against combo, allowing you to attack their graveyard, hand, and board. If I were to modify this list at all, I would likely drop an oxidize for a 2nd crypt. However, the thought of that does make me shudder, as Oxidize is your silver bullet against the appropriate matchups.

I have personally never seen a need for Simic Sky Swallower since the printing of Tidespout Tyrant. I believe intelligent play can prevent the majority of mishaps involving removal.


Here is my current Maindeck:

// Lands
    4  Forbidden Orchard
    2  Flooded Strand
    3  Polluted Delta
    3  Tropical Island
    2  Underground Sea
    2  Island

// Creatures
    2  Tidespout Tyrant
    1  Triskelavus

// Spells
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Krosan Reclamation
    1  Flash of Insight
    1  Tinker
    3  Misdirection
    4  Oath of Druids
    1  Demonic Tutor
    4  Brainstorm
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    1  Time Walk
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Force of Will
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Mox Emerald
    3  Ponder
    1  Show and Tell
    1  Mox Sapphire
    2  Merchant Scroll
    4  Gush
    1 Fastbond

On the subject of Tinker...
      Its weak on game 1, but still yields you an immediate out to otherwise losing propositions. This card becomes a godsend post-board. Often your primary win, Your toolbox of artifact creatures + artifact answers allows you to adapt to any situation.

On the subject of Show and Tell...
     I put this in to replace the MD chain of vapor/e-truth/wipe away and I haven't looked back once. Every game where I needed chain of vapor this won it for me as well. As an additional immediate-out against clocking decks, the benefits of this are insane. I've had S&T singlehandedly win me games that no other card in the game could. However, I do still side it out against certain matchups, mostly combo, for obvious reasons.

On the subject of Gush...
     This is a card that rewards good players, and heavily punishes less-experienced ones. Akin to Brainstorm, this card can easily win you or lose you the game based on your playskill. Gush makes me want to run 6x fetchlands, but I don't have the stones to go to 2x Tropical islands. Especially in a deck that only needs to resolve a 2 CmC spell, Oath abuses Gush more than GAT does, allowing you to go all-in easily.

On the subject of Research // Development ...
     I have been testing without it, and have yet to lose a game to not having it. I only cast Development with it. I have oathed to death, Krosan'd Research & Time walk back before, but in those games I would have won had I gotten Time walk & Will also. Obviously without R&D you are susceptible to caps without it. Honestly though, even with it on the MD, an intelligent person capping will take Tyrantx2 & R&D, leaving you with a Triskelavus against a deck likely based off mana-lock. (Thanks to Harle for pointing out the inherent weakness in R&D versus cap) I have been running a 3rd ponder in R&D's stead.


::EDIT:: I hope by my posting of a list, we will get more competent oath players out there kicking tail & taking names. While the Oath-mirror has a moderate luck factor associated with it, I don't believe any more than the GAT mirror. The Oath-mirror is one of the most skill intensive mirrors out there, only superseded by the Staxx matchup. I look forward to these, but rarely have the privilege.

::EDIT2:: On the subject of Flash of Insight being reintroduced. I forget who between myself or Harle suggested Flash of Insight. But it was definitely one of us. We're like the Carp brothers of Innovation, just less Rooster.

[Nehptis]

@ Rock Lee:

Thanks for that very insightful review of your build.  You've got me really interested in trying out the lone Show and Tell!  A few questions as I have an upcoming tourney that I'm prepping for.

1) In which matchups does the Blazing Archon come in?

2) In which matchups do the Needles come in?  Is it just for Wastes/Strips and Welders?

3) What's the SBing plan vs. GAT?  Is it Duress + Titan?

4) What's the SBing plan vs. Flash?  Is it just Platz?

[Harlequin]

Rock Lee and I test together very often, and we have had many a lively debate over Oath.  Both of us share the belief that Oath is currently the strongest Meta-Choice where we live.  I'll post my counter arguements:

On Tinker - I totally agree, the value of tinker often increases for post-board games.  I would like to add, that it is a strong/broad enough card to maindeck it rather than sideboard it.   It can win you game 1.

In Jer's deck, he chooses to make the following changes:
-- Show and Tell over Chain of Vapor
-- 3rd ponder over Research and Development
-- 3 Duresses over 3 Extirpates in the board

As he discussed, Show and Tell is really fitting the slot of "Oh Sh*t [Chalice@2, MM on Oath] for game 1" It's an out to an otherwise outless situation.  Show and Tell, Chain of Vapor, and Engineered Explosives All have flaws and merits in filling this slot. 
> Chain of vapor is probably the most rounded card, and best for a mystery meta.  It can be tutored up by Merchant Scroll... however it cannot be tutored up if you are attempting to answer chalice on 2.  It answer everything  from sphere to chalice to Tinker->Giant as well as Magus of the Moon.  Chain even works as a drawbackless multi-bounce post Tyrant... if you have moxen.  You can use it to target a mox, and even make copies with your own lands.  Then replay the moxen as bounce spells.
> Engineered Exploves is good against both chalice and sphere.  It can easily be pre-set to 2 against GAT and it can clear out EtW tokens.  The limitation on this card is it's awkwardness.  It can only be found through DT, Vamp, and Tinker* - all very powerful cards that often should not be wasted on such a trivial card.  Also note that EE can act as good as a moxen for going infite when you need infinite colorless for Tyrant/Triskv.
> Show and Tell.  Rather than try and "answer" a resolved oathing-promble ... Show and tell provides a stand-alone win condition.  Futhermore, if you S&T in a Tyrant, its almost always irrelevant what they choose to put into play - because tyrant easily un-show what they pick.  The questionable part is how this card will flow with the rest of the deck.  Often it's not a 'rip' like tinker is... because as a rule of thumb you generally want to shuffle drawn creatures back.  The nice part is,  if you do happen to have a tyrant in hand when you draw Merchant Sroll, Mystical, Vamp or DT... your goal becomes find and resolve Show and Tell.  The other application of this card is to bait and/or put an uncounterable oath of druids into play.  A riskier play, but certainly a possible one.

Ponder and R/D --
This is the toughest debate in my mind.  R/D is definately a very unique and interesting card.  What it does, is alow you to intentinally "oath yourself to death."  With a much greater degree of confidence of the win.  I have use R/D as an integral part of this plan three times over the course of 6 tournements (and opted not to in error once).  So roughly 1 out of 18~ish -games- this card has been important.  I have to really analyze the impact of the 3rd ponder that i've been wishing to add.  In Theory, if I think I can win more games out of 18 with the 3rd ponder, then it's worth it.  If not then I should stick to R/D.  The problem is that this comparison is based almost 100% in the abstract.  It's nearly impossible to compare the trade of turn 2-5 consistancy with a lower chance of loseing a game in which you have already resolved oath.  I guess ultimatly  there is no 'right' answer, so just play to your preferance.  to bring this rant to a close, maybe the reason I'm so torn is because I really like R/D and I also really think the deck needs a 3rd ponder.

Duress over Extriapte ---
> Overall: With duress, you are commiting to only short yourself at most 1 turn.  When you draw duress, you'll play it even if it means casting oath next turn.  Extirpate, sometimes will leave you sitting on for more than one turns ... sometimes indefinately.  Duress is generally much stronger in the short term, but ultimately weaker in the long run because it's effect can be erased by a good topdeck.  Etripate is arguable weaker in the short term, but has the ability to fizzle an entire deck in the mid/late game especially when used in multiples.
 
> Duress and Extirpate against GAT:  As it stands, either card will come in against GAT.  Duress against control is strong because it means you can resolve oath much more reliably.  It also slows the temporaritly, if you take a draw/tutor.  Extirpate on the first 4-of Draw/Scroll that hits the yard on the other hand slows thier entire deck.  This ultimately gives you more time to find, resolve, and win via oath.  It is also notably uncounterable, so against control you've got that going for you as well.  Ultimately, Extirpate makes your Orchardless Oath hands stronger because you aiming to take away your opponent's ability to win in one turn.   Generally, the GAT plan against a resolved oath is to try and drop a creature w/ timwalk, and win all in one turn before you can oath.  Without Gushes, Merchantscroll or even brainstorms this becomes a very daunting task. 

Duress and Extripate vrs Tendrils Combo:  As above, duress is a more immedate solution to an immediate deck.  Duress gives you a very straight and narrow road to winning... fizzle thier hand with duress and counters long enough to resolve and trigger oath.  Extirpate takes more finesse, it is much less reliable in the early game, but much more backbreaking in the late game.  Extirpate has the ability to fizzle a Yawgmoth's will, and again - does it with uncounterable reliability.  It can also resuffle topdeck tutors uninterupted by instant speed draw effects.   At the end of the day, Duress is a card that will help you survive thier initial onslaught; where extirpate is a card that is infinitely more powerful - assumeing you survive the initail onslaught. 

Bonus Points to Extirpate:  Extirpate is also GY hate.  This is relavent against primarily Ichorid and Bomberman.  There are also other GY decks out there, it's not impossible to face off against Dragon, Dawn of the Dead, Control Slaver, and maybe even s renagade round 1 Reanimator.

Duress and Extirpate Conclusions:
Jer chooses Duress because he feels that the benefit of having a solid card to shore up a bad match-up outways the narrowness of Duress.
I personally choose Extripate because I feel that Extirpate adiquatly improves my tendrils match-up and I hope that the more versilitle Extirpate will steel me more games against both X-factor decks and GAT.

[Rock Lee]

Everything Harle said I agree with. As he said, we theorycraft and playtest Oath more than sanity should allow. We often see eye-to-eye on oath card choices, even if we have different preferences based on playstyle.

Oath reminds me greatly of the power of old Control Slaver in that you can choose a toolkit you feel will maximize your needs and keep a solid core that will just win on its own.

Nehptis asked:
1) In which matchups does the Blazing Archon come in?

2) In which matchups do the Needles come in?  Is it just for Wastes/Strips and Welders?

3) What's the SBing plan vs. GAT?  Is it Duress + Titan?

4) What's the SBing plan vs. Flash?  Is it just Platz?

Ah how I do love Blazing Archon...
Blazing Archon comes in against anything that completely revolves around swinging for the win. Flash, Aggro (both colored, shop, and fish), and ichorid. I do not side it in against GAT, although if I felt they were playing a less combo oriented GAT and more aggro oriented, I would put it in. Ie. dryads, goyfs, AND tog. Basically, anything that will jeopardize your life total to the point where you will only get one oath, requires Archon. Special note given to decks that run lots of attackers.

In regards to Pithing Needles...
Harle knows more about needle victory than I do. As he just seems to get paired up against staxx far more than I do. Needle hits Wasteland, Welder, and Strip Mine. Usually in that order. Against shop aggro they name SoFI, Ravager, and Trike; again in that order. Not that this deck has a bad R/G beats matchup, but you also name Skullclamp against anything that runs it. Of course they come in against Ichorid and Bomberman.

In regards to the GAT SB plan...
GAT is bringing in Rebs, or EE. Either way I often opt to take the combo route against them instead of the control route. Still though, any blue-versus-blue deck will revolve around card advantage, even in this tempo-stricken meta. I often take out card disadvantage pieces, and relying on my  to trump their  . Duressx3 + Titan is my new plan. In testing, it has been powerful as hell. I personally dislike Fastbond, Vamp, and off-color-moxen in this matchup. Could just be me though.

In regards to the Flash SB plan...
This plan is very similar to the GAT plan, -Mox Ruby, -2x Gush, -Vamp, -Fastbond +3x Duress. Instead of Titan I put in Blazing Archon and Plats. Excepting Titan, All of your creatures are golden against Flash. And with a large creature count show and tell will just win you this matchup. The only build I wouldn't keep in Triskelavus would obviously be against Dreadnaught Flash. Withstanding that, all your creatures win the game if in play.


::EDIT:: As a random aside, I mostly opted for Show and Tell over Chain of Vapor because I HATE Magus of the Moon. And while chain of vapor clearly can target a magus, Show and Tell clobbers him. Remember folks, fetch islands first, because the mountains are coming! I disliked the lack of synergy between chain of vapor and Tidespout. Admittedly though, chain of vapor is stupidly good in the Mirror match and if you need lots of bouncing action. And Chain of Vapor puts your 3 answers on different CmC's, which is sometimes vital.

[Malhavoc]

I don't see any lack of synergy between chain and tyrant.. Apart that with tyrant you should not need any other sort of bounce, if you really need it you can bounce multiple moxen of yours and even oath sacrifying some lands, and then recast all for mass bounce.

[Rock Lee]

I don't see any lack of synergy between chain and tyrant.. Apart that with tyrant you should not need any other sort of bounce, if you really need it you can bounce multiple moxen of yours and even oath sacrifying some lands, and then recast all for mass bounce.

The lack of synergy is that one overrides the other. And Show and Tell offers you the answer you need for the very rare circumstances you would need Chain of Vapor.

As I said though. I'm still testing Show and Tell. But sofar the tests have proven incredible.

[matthewCURBSTOMP]

@RockLee
I fail to see how you feel Chain and Tyrant override eachother. You chain your own stuff (ie. moxen, oath, etc) and use Tyrant's ability to bounce one of your opponents permanents, but never targetting their stuff directly with Chain. Then replay everything you bounced to clear their board hopefully.

[Rock Lee]

@RockLee
I fail to see how you feel Chain and Tyrant override eachother. You chain your own stuff (ie. moxen, oath, etc) and use Tyrant's ability to bounce one of your opponents permanents, but never targetting their stuff directly with Chain. Then replay everything you bounced to clear their board hopefully.

I'm well aware that with Tyrant in play, Chain of Vapor is amazing. The problem is, Tyrant in PLAY is amazing. Not the chain of Vapor with him. If I'm looking to increase the amount of utility I get from each card, Chain of Vapor has less synergy than Show and Tell.

What I'm elaborating on, is without Tyrant in play, Show and Tell is at least equal to Chain of Vapor in a removal aspect, and will hands down win you the game so long as you have set it up. In the very very least, its a highly tempting Counterspell target for your opponent. (read: if you feel they've a huge grip of counters)

Basically. Show and Tell wins you the game. I have found that Chain of Vapor will only delay the game.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I really couldn't agree with rock lee more about chain of vapor. When you need your bounce to solve some problems independent of tyrant ton board, it can put you in a bad situation. Simply put, chain is bad when your not already winning, and we all know what the problem with "win more" cards is. I have yet to test show and tell.

I'm a little curious about show and tell, the synergy with tyrant seems good. It seems like a well thought out mana drain could make this same play, given a good pilot, and isn't a dead card with out tyrant. I was wondering if you had some number data on the card, like how often the spell was relevant in match ups, what percentage of your wins came from the card, are things like dupe ever a problem ext.

[Rock Lee]

I'm a little curious about show and tell, the synergy with tyrant seems good. It seems like a well thought out mana drain could make this same play, given a good pilot, and isn't a dead card with out tyrant. I was wondering if you had some number data on the card, like how often the spell was relevant in match ups, what percentage of your wins came from the card, are things like dupe ever a problem ext.

Glad to see some curiosity about this bad boy. I can say this. of the past 2 tournaments I've been to (5 rounds each, & Top 8) I've had Show and Tell singlehandedly win me the game 4 times. Two of my rounds went to 3 games. So that's 4 games won out of 14 games just in a tournament setting.

In playtesting, I would generalize and say 10% of matches are won via Show and Tell, 5% via Tinker. I have yet to do the "bait Oath of druids with show and tell" or "play Oath without green", but Harlequin has hosed me several times with that play while we were testing GAT versus Oath. Yet ANOTHER out around Chalice @ 2, Meddling Mage, Green Sources MIA, and crazy things like 1st turn Trygon Predator. (Don't ask, New England has notoriously insane legacy Players who play Vintage. Looking at you! Matt McNalley)

I have had two instances of Show and Tell with me laying a Tyrant and my opponent laying a Duplicant out of about 30 games post-side against MUD Domination, Staxx, and Stackless Staxx. In both instances I was able to bounce 2 or 3 important targets, and then return him to my hand for Show and Telling out of my yard Via Yawg, which was enabled by my 2 - 3 bounces.

Basically. Its been amazing.

On the subject of Mana Drain...
I've often pondered the potential of Mana Drain on the main. If I wanted to go back to my roots (read: Slaver) of playing a Deck that can easily swap between aggro-control and aggro-combo, I would probably go to 2-3 Drains and duresses to the Maindeck. However, I feel GAT is better suited to make this swinging change as it has a solider draw package and can more consistently find answers. Oath put on the defense would have to scramble for answers, while GAT could find them easier and smoother.

The benefit, is that Oath still has a win condition that is easier to implement, less hate-able, and happens to have favorable matchups against the hate AGAINST GAT.

Ultimately, I feel that Show and Tell adheres to my concept of Oath as a Combo deck, and GAT as a control-combo deck. If anyone wants to play Oath reactively and wait for the proper moment to attack, I would highly suggest Mana Drains and Duresses on the main. This sounds similar to your type of playstyle 100yrHeX, so I could totally see this working for you. And I would make one of your cut cards Show And Tell, as you adeptly stated, Drain can easily provide the same effect, especially with so many  CmC targets out there.

In Conclusion...
Any Tier 1 deck's personality will be defined by the 3-4 cards which are available for metagamed & personalized modification outside of the tried and true core. Make oath however you want it and let it play to your strengths best! This is my story. I'm interested in yours!

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

thanks a lot for the reply. I've been having a series of close calls vs ssgoyf (far to close for comfort). With oath on board they're effectively running 5x time walk. Between tinker main, and show and tell sb, I should be able to boost my numbers

[Rock Lee]

thanks a lot for the reply. I've been having a series of close calls vs ssgoyf (far to close for comfort). With oath on board they're effectively running 5x time walk. Between tinker main, and show and tell sb, I should be able to boost my numbers

Just a quick Comment Hex. If I were to SB one of Tinker or Show and Tell, I would SB the Tinker, as it becomes much stronger in Game 2, while show and tell only becomes stronger if you're siding in more creatures. Against SSgoyf, you will be siding in 2+ more creatures, ifnot nearly all of them, so Show and Tell will be a huge powerhouse. However, I feel Show and Tell will offer you stronger immediate outs more than Tinker Game 1.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

honestly i've been playing with a configuration maining 2x tidespout -trikevus - tinker + show and tell, sbing 3rd tidepout, 1 sss, 1 vus, 2, show and tell. then the traditional oxidize, smother, LL

[Nehptis]

I just did some testing against SSGofy and it is a very tough matchup.  What I found in my testing was the 3 x Duress from the board are more effective with my play stile than 3 x Extirpate.  I felt I needed to push through my spells with Duress while having counter backup.  As opposed to holding and waiting to use the Extripates.

Also, it is critical as Rock describes to play the Aggro role.  SSGofy is Control thru and thru and trying to play the Combo role just doesn't work.  Using Tinker and Show and Tell to be Aggro is the way to go.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I'd definitely agree. I've been sbing out -4x oath for +  tidespout + 1 SSS
in addition - stuff + how ever many smother I'm SB at the time
As always top decking tutors are the best cards in the deck. The new sb configuration is very good for the match up, for match ups like trinket goyf and deeznaughts its nearly the same, but 2x SSS and 2x tidespout and try to keep 2x oath in sacrificing a scroll or regrowth as needed, the spell bomb is dangerous. The numbers have gotten better, but its still a hard game to play.

[Stormanimagus]

Duress over Extriapte ---
> Overall: With duress, you are commiting to only short yourself at most 1 turn.  When you draw duress, you'll play it even if it means casting oath next turn.  Extirpate, sometimes will leave you sitting on for more than one turns ... sometimes indefinately.  Duress is generally much stronger in the short term, but ultimately weaker in the long run because it's effect can be erased by a good topdeck.  Etripate is arguable weaker in the short term, but has the ability to fizzle an entire deck in the mid/late game especially when used in multiples.
 
> Duress and Extirpate against GAT:  As it stands, either card will come in against GAT.  Duress against control is strong because it means you can resolve oath much more reliably.  It also slows the temporaritly, if you take a draw/tutor.  Extirpate on the first 4-of Draw/Scroll that hits the yard on the other hand slows thier entire deck.  This ultimately gives you more time to find, resolve, and win via oath.  It is also notably uncounterable, so against control you've got that going for you as well.  Ultimately, Extirpate makes your Orchardless Oath hands stronger because you aiming to take away your opponent's ability to win in one turn.   Generally, the GAT plan against a resolved oath is to try and drop a creature w/ timwalk, and win all in one turn before you can oath.  Without Gushes, Merchantscroll or even brainstorms this becomes a very daunting task. 

Duress and Extripate vrs Tendrils Combo:  As above, duress is a more immedate solution to an immediate deck.  Duress gives you a very straight and narrow road to winning... fizzle thier hand with duress and counters long enough to resolve and trigger oath.  Extirpate takes more finesse, it is much less reliable in the early game, but much more backbreaking in the late game.  Extirpate has the ability to fizzle a Yawgmoth's will, and again - does it with uncounterable reliability.  It can also resuffle topdeck tutors uninterupted by instant speed draw effects.   At the end of the day, Duress is a card that will help you survive thier initial onslaught; where extirpate is a card that is infinitely more powerful - assumeing you survive the initail onslaught. 

Bonus Points to Extirpate:  Extirpate is also GY hate.  This is relavent against primarily Ichorid and Bomberman.  There are also other GY decks out there, it's not impossible to face off against Dragon, Dawn of the Dead, Control Slaver, and maybe even s renagade round 1 Reanimator.

Duress and Extirpate Conclusions:
Jer chooses Duress because he feels that the benefit of having a solid card to shore up a bad match-up outways the narrowness of Duress.
I personally choose Extripate because I feel that Extirpate adiquatly improves my tendrils match-up and I hope that the more versilitle Extirpate will steel me more games against both X-factor decks and GAT.

Hey, this is only my second time posting in these forums, but I'm a longtime member of the Wizards Vintage Forums and returning Waterbury player. You actually might know me. I've been to Waterbury for years and piloted Hide // Seek Fish to a pretty dismal performance at a Waterbury about a year ago. Anyhoo, I really like this deck and am considering it or TOG or a UR Landstill Deck that I've been tuning for a while for the upcoming Feb 16 Waterbury.

The Arguement about Duress/Extirpate. Why not just run both? Duress MD and Extirpate SB? personally, I think making room shouldn't be a problem if you drop the Scrolls MD. I don't really see the power in Scroll for this deck because:

a) It doesn't serve you like it does in GAT or TOG because there they are fueling the engine of their deck no matter when they play the Scroll. It always pumps a Dryad in play and it can always find Cunning Wish for Berserk if you just need to win. Everyone knows its value at finding Ancestral but I don't think this deck needs a tutor for that card. I disagree a bit about a point made earlier. The Gush/Fastbond Engine IS better in GAT and especially better in the recent TOG version proposed by Menendian. Being able to pump tog by an extra 6 with a single spell and 0 hand is a powerful proposition and was the reason that Gush was originally restricted. I'm not saying it isn't superb in this deck. I just think it is better in TOG variants that don't run Dryad but rather 3-4 TOG. Scroll was also very useful in that deck because it searched up MD Answers. I don't think this deck needs MD answers to many things other than Chalice Of The Void. We should be fine without that sort of toolbox. As you said, Tinker, and, to a lesser extent Show And Tell, is our toolbox post-board. Show and Tell is a bit dangerous at times (especially when the Stax player is running Duplicant against you) but I can really see its merits so I'll go with running 1.

b) Running 2 seems like a weak attempt at the engine. I'd only run 2 for it to fulfill some sort of role

c) Chalice at 2 kills this card and Oath. They'll set Chalice at 2 if they are Stax and run Chalice.

I dunno. I think this deck has enough dig and since it's biggest silver bullet cards are not even tutorable with Merchant Scroll (Tinker and Show And Tell) I'd rather just drop it for Duress and improve the shakey combo matchup as well as add a card that is rarely ever dead game 1. I know you guys know this deck inside and out so any response to this I'll take very seriously, but right now Scroll doesn't seem needed. Here's my list with that stuff in mind:

Tyrant Oath

Land (15):
4 Forbidden Orchard
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
2 Island

Artifacts (6):
1 Black Lotus (0)
1 Mox Emerald (0)
1 Mox Sapphire (0)
1 Mox Jet (0)
1 Mox Ruby (0)
1 Mox Pearl (0)

Creatures (3):
2 Tidespout Tyrant (5UUU)
1 Triskelavus (7)

Instants (19):
4 Brainstorm (U)
4 Gush (4U)
4 Force Of Will (3UU)
2 Misdirection (3UU)
1 Ancestral Recall (U)
1 Vampiric Tutor (B)
1 Mystical Tutor (U)
1 Krosan Reclamation (1G)
1 Flash Of Insight (1U)

Sorceries (12):
3 Ponder (U)
4 Duress (B)
1 Demonic Tutor (1B)
1 Yawgmoth’s Will (2B)
1 Time Walk (1U)
1 Tinker (2U)
1 Show And Tell (2U)

Enchantments (5):
4 Oath Of Druids (1G)
1 Fastbond (G)

SB
3 Oxidize
1 Platinum Angel
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
4 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
1 Blazing Archon
1 Island

[Duncan]

Scroll gives you:
- Ancestral when you need draw.
- Brainstorm when you've got lots of land/ a creature in hand
- Force/Drain when you need counters
- Flash of Insight when you want to go off.

It's super versatile and almost never a dead card. I can't think of a situation when i hate drawing it, except when i'm at 1 mana and shouldve mulled anyway.

[Nehptis]

Follow-up to my brief tourney report found here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35237.0

Experience and practice where definitely keys to success and elements of losses.  Although I tested on MWS prior to the tourney it’s still not enough to prevent mistakes.  I believe this is why I did far better in the Side event after having played a full day of Tyrant Oath.  My last match vs. Red Aggro Shop in the main Event was a “winner goes to T8” situation..and I lost to a Mull error.  So all-in-all finishing 12th wasn’t bad while splitting the Side event for 1st.

Here’s what I played:

Tyrant Oath
60
17
2 Polluted Delta       
2 Flooded Strand       
3 Island       
2 Underground Sea     
2 Tropical Island     
4 Forbidden Orchard   
1 Wasteland   
1 Strip Mine   
3
1 Vampiric Tutor       
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
25
1 Show and Tell
1 Tinker
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm   
3 Misdirection
1 Time Walk   
1 Timetwister 
1 Ancestral Recall     
1 Echoing Truth
1 Flash of Insight
2 Tidespout Tyrant
2 Ponder
2 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
7
4 Oath of Druids       
1 Krosan Reclamation 
1 Crop Rotation
1 Oxidize     
8
1 Black Lotus 
1 Mox Jet     
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald 
1 Mox Ruby     
1 Mox Pearl   
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Triskelavus

SB: 2 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Platinum Angel
SB: 1 Sundering Titan
SB: 2 Smother 
SB: 3 Duress
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall 
SB: 1 Oxidize     
SB: 1 Blazing Archon
SB: 2 Simic Sky Swallower     


Mana:
The mana base was solid for me almost all day.  A mull decision cost me big.  But, it’s not the mana base’s fault.  The Strip and Waste were solid all day.  They kept Shop in check and did very well in keeping a key Trop or Sea off the board.

Spells:
Ignore the Timetwister in my build as it is just a personal choice to always play with my P9.  It does offer me unique options or just pitches to FOW/MisD.

Not a single spell needs to be changed.  With Heavy Shop the singleton Oxidize was key.  The EE was helpful when it could be.  The ETruth was always useful.  I haven’t yet jumped on the Gush/FBond bandwagon mainly because it doesn’t suite my play style.  So, for me the Ponders and Scrolls were great, no complaints.  In this build SnTell is definitely > Tinker pre-board.  But, both were solid all day.  Tinker is always bait for a FOW, or worst case I get A Triskev into play which is not too shabby at all.

The “weakest” spells were Flash of Insight and Yawgwill.  But, FoI is awesome when you flash it back and do silly library tricks with Krosan.  And to say Yawgwill is weak is….odd.  But, I usually cast it and simply got ahead as opposed to going broke like Storm decks do with YWill.  Never the less, neither would get cut from my deck.

Creatures:
2 Tyrant and 1 Triskev worked perfectly for me all day.  I think 1 Tyrant is not enough.  Also, there is no going back to Trike.  The Flying ability of Triskev is huge.  Swinging for 4 “unblockable” most of the time while still being able to block with Tokens if needed.

SB:
Right of the bat with my meta being heavy WorkShop I need +1 Oxidize and -1 T Crypt in the board.  Ancient Grudge could be a consideration but it’s the Turn 2 Oxidize with a Sphere/Thorn in play BEFORE I have Oath out that is critical to execute.

The Angel did exactly what it was supposed to.  IT made the matchups like Slivers winnable. The STitan was also a great call.  Against R/G Beats I sided in a Platz and then later realized that perhaps a STitan would have been better.  Since, he could Seal/Bolt by Platz.  While the STitan could have went the distance or at least bought me more time to Oath up more creatures.

Duress is awesome against Slivers and of course control.  I’m keeping it over Extirpate.

Smother is just a great card in this meta with all the beefy 2/3 CC creatures running around.

The Archon is hilarious against decks that can’t get rid of it.  However, I over-valued it against Workshop and did not see the Duplicants coming.  Next time around the SSS’s came in, as well.

The SSS’s continue to show their worth to me in any matchup that has targeted removal / bounce.  Against R/G beats an SSS would have been better on the table than my Archon when the Stingscourger hit!

So, all in all nothing but praise for the deck.  And I can’t wait to try it again.

-------
Regarding the discussion about Merchant Scroll.  It did for me exactly as Duncan described.  I wouldn't cut it right now.

[Rock Lee]

Glad to hear about your near-victory with Oath neph. Sounds like with more experience you'll tear it up.

About Archon. Knowing their answer to archon is the real key to knowing when to leave him unprotected.

Concerning Shop Aggro. I keep in Triskelavus, 2x Tyrant, and add Archon, that's it. Often its an absurdly favorable matchup, solong as you keep a hand with more than 1 mana source.

RG beats can actually cut your life total quickly. I put in all creatures against them, and take the quickest path to a monster in play.

I've also been testing an interesting option in Duress's stead. Shadow of Doubt. Since we don't run Drains anymore, its an interesting 2 CmC answer. I'm still not sure if its the RIGHT answer, but its interesting for sure. It answers the difficult matchups we have, while giving us the advantage against GAT.

[Sean Ryan]

There was a ton of Oath at the Lotus tourny in Seattle yesterday.  A Tyrant build lost in the finals to Aggro-Mudd.  I normally do not like Oath, but played against an interesting build resembling the old GWS version.  It was designed to beat a Gat/Stax metagame and ran counter-top with Blazing Archon for the kill.  He opted for less card advantage and more tempo with the addition of Impulse.  The deck designer said the only thing he really feared was combo.  It's an interesting idea for anyone who plays Oath.  With the meta turning toward Shops Oath may be a good choice.

Sean   

[Smmenen]

And yet, the Oath deck still lost

[Sean Ryan]

Well...it is Oath

Just saying the time might be right, especially if people can come up with a build that isn't as clunky as the lists I have seen posted here.

Sean

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

The list posted here really aren't that "clunky". Currently I've taken my focus off oath to work on a rather successfully mud list, some oath build will always be on the side for me though, and the gush tyrant trikevus build completely dominated MUD. The match up seemed nearly unwinnable.  Oath has always been great against shop, and now between oath, tinker, and show and tell, and the 4x tutor trend, there are a lot of ways to get quick win conditions on the table that also have great disruptive capabilities.
For the goyf part of our meta, stifle has been a problem. Running oath as your only method to get your aggro on the field only provides your opponent with a series of  cost time walks. But again with tinker and show and tell available, these counter light decks aren't doing to well once tyrant hits the board.

personally I like running the impulses over the gush engine, but from where I last left off, the numbers told me to play gush.

As for combo, I used to pilot icbm oath religiously and one thing I had never lost to in a tournament is combo. The deck can have a very strong control package, especially if you figure chalice into the equation somewhere. Land mox chalice @1 is still ridiculously strong, i try to keep at least 3 chalice sb for certain match ups.

[Nehptis]

Well...it is Oath

Just saying the time might be right, especially if people can come up with a build that isn't as clunky as the lists I have seen posted here.

Sean

What aspects of the lists that you see here are clunky?  Is it the win condition of Tyrant / Triskev? Is it the control cards?  Or is it the draw engine?

The cores of each list are almost identical.  Some of the different card choices that usually come down to playstyle and metagame are as 100 yr described:

1) Use a Gush draw engine.
2) Use Impulse or Ponder and Merchant Scrolls instead of Gush.
3) Or go the more ICBM route and use COTV.

[LotusHead]

Well congrats you guys. Tyrant Oath went there, took one home.

I finally REALLY checked out this thread after I lost to it badly over and over on MWS.

This thread was a good read and made me proud of TMD and public forums.

I sleeved up a 50% Proxy version and played it against my teammates.  Despite them losing over and over to Tyrant Oath, I couldn't convince one of them to run it (one runs Akroma Oath instead). (My excuse is I'm addicted to shops).

Anyways, the Team Reflection List looked like the "final" Tyrant Oath list except -3MisD +3Thoughseize, -1 Tyrant +1 Brainfreeze (more or less).

Granted, Shay faced like 7 GAT decks as opposed to a more varied meta, but I have to say, Tyrant Oath is an awesome deck. (maybe I'll give it a go... )

[Godfish]

Tyrant Oath is a force to be reckoned with, well done... So yeah, what would you say is Tyrant Oath's weakest matchup? I'm just curious.

[Phele]

Tyrant Oath is a force to be reckoned with, well done... So yeah, what would you say is Tyrant Oath's weakest matchup? I'm just curious.

Bomberman definately is a very hard matchup for Oath. This has been the matchup I loved one Simic Sky Swallower in th board for. Quick Combo like Flash or some storm builds is also not a walk in the park. And well build disruptive decks like UW Fish with a lot of Mages, Swords, Stifles or UB Mask with a good mix of EE, Extirpates, ET and Stifles also have a good shot against Tyrant Oath.

[sushicutta]

What about a Gilded Dranke http://magiccards.info/us/en/76.html? I think he has a great interaction with Tyrant... !

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Tyrant Oath is a force to be reckoned with, well done... So yeah, what would you say is Tyrant Oath's weakest matchup? I'm just curious.

anything running 7 duress and 4 stifle. Show and tell improves this though.