5C Baghdad Bob (working title: Lava Grunts)

[vroman]

I started a thread about this deck of mine about two months ago, but it got deleted due to excessive nonstandard card abreviations, that I wasnt motivated to correct to mods' satisfaction.
anyway, so far Ive won Workshop, Ruby, and lots of store credit with this deck. I did mediocre at gencon, but not deck's fault. my fault. truth is, Im bad at type one now. way out of practice. wasting all my card time cube drafting and showing up drunk to Sealed events.
my Worlds matches were
Rd 1. gat
2. gat
3. flash
4. gat
5. flash
6. gat
7. goblins
8. flash
which is Perfect bc my deck was specificaly chosen on the strength of the flash matchup and strong showings against Gat. then I made poor plays, primarily with Duress. Im sure its been discussed elsewhere,the incredible strength of duress, in the world where merchant scroll is king (I faced 28 out of 32 possible merchant scrolls that day). There is nothing I like better in the current environment than being on the draw holding black mana + duress, and enemy drops turn 1 island+mox->Mscroll for anything. however its often not that cut and dry and Duress is surprisingly skill intensive card that I had practiced precious little with. in fact duress was relatively late addition to the list, but certainly indispensible.
heres my current build with some very recent untested changes based on lieks tournament report here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=34016.0
4 bazaar
4 brassville
4 factory
1 strip
2 rift portal
1 b-ring
2 badland
2 cavekoilos
5 mox
2 black lotus petal
4 Dconf
4 lavaman
3 mindcensor
3 plowshare
3 reb/pblast
4 leyline
4 duress
1 mazith
1 balance
1 crops
1 dtut
1 vtut
1 lifeloam
1 recall
1 timewalk
side
4 hideseek
4 resistor
2 diabolic edict (Im intrigued by dan yarringtons sorcery vs misdirection Cruel Edict tech here)
2 chains
2 ancient grudge
1 rayrev


why I like this deck:
-it has bazaar. this is a given. the true power of bazaar as free cycling engine has long been underestimated. this deck has no dedidacted bazaar enablers (squee, uba, madness) and marginal graveyard functionality (lavamancer, lifeloam), making it unlikely candidate for abusing bazaar. however the free incremental draw engine of Dconf, and the thin mana curve makes a large portion of the deck very cyclable. I stand by my position that bazaar is the best draw engine in magic.
-the mana base. I tinkered w the mana a lot, rejecting gemstone mine and fetchlands, but still greedily running 5c. I love it. Im very tempted to cut recall/timewalk, as there have been a handful of games where Ive got every color except brass available, and one or more P9 sits dead in hand.
-huge flash hate, all from splash damage cards. leyline, mindcensor, reb, duress, lavaman (vs haste sliver). also its real easy to play turn 1 factory+mox->guy. turn 2-factory/guy and then sit on 3 blockers until board stabilizes beyond their ability to bounce. none of these are specificaly geared at flash, but resolving any of them is a time walk at Worst, and possibly soft lock with a clock.
-lavaman is forgotten gem of the old UR fish days. surprisingly handy SoB.
-Ive yet to find an untenable matchup. goblins is admitedly dicey. the game depends on early factory and/or surviving lavaman. then midgame tutor for balance, and stabilizing defenses. seige-gang can be a real problem.
-fish is much, much easier than goblins
-Gat is always tricky, but redblasting gush early can be fairly disastrous tempo loss. also maze is phenomenal defense.
-mindcensor is the new null rod. the only 3 drop I consider feasible main. if ubastax was the anti-yawgwill deck, this is the anti-merchant scroll deck. mcensor, duress, rebs, egads.
-leyline main. its hefty price when Bob hands it to you, but like jacob riehm has pointed out, you have to be able to do something turn 0. that means either force of will or leyline.

the only question Im repeatedly asked is why I prefer this over stax.
-mana denial as a strategy is at an all time low. flash wins w U1. Gat bounces lands vs waste/strip, and fastbond laughs at stax. goblins has vials and permanents galore. ichorid completely ignores stax. all the best decks, except fish, are virtually immune to mana denial and permanent atrition. this is the primary reason IVe abandoned stax. besides, magus of the moon is hands down the best mana denial card now, and he deosnt need workshop.
-artifacts just arent good enough anymore. there hasnt been a relevent artifact in the 2-5c range printed in 2+ years now. the mana benefit of workshop is slipping farther and farther, compared to other archetypes which are improving by leaps and bounds.
-the manabase of baghdadbob, despite its haphazard apearnace, far more consistent than stax. even w serum powder, stax draws remain relatively workshop dependent. hands w/o workshop typicaly are stuck w their opening 7 which amounts to dropping probably one lock peice; and then topdeck horribly if no workshop is forthcoming.
-if the mana is held equal between the two decks, then we have artifacts that sit there and mildly inconvenience the enemy, or hate-dudes that mildly inconvenience enemy while dealing 2/turn. hate.dec wins.
-the best thing to do w welder now is bring in Possessed portal. the speed and consistency of decks are so powerful now, that if you cant summarily end the game w your first welder activation, then he's not even worth playing.
-yes I know that two different workshop decks top8d worlds. I dont understand it. I have punishingly bad matchups w myriad different stax builds against the current field.

[Bill Copes]

As a courtesy, I typed out the list with full card names.  I'd hate to see this thread get boned again on a technicality.  I think the deck is amazing.

4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 City of Brass
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
2 Riftsone Portal
1 Barbarian Ring
2 Badlands
2 Caves of Koilos
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Confidant
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Swords To Plowshares
3 Pyroblast
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Duress
1 Maze of Ith
1 Balance
1 Crop Rotation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Life of the Loam
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timewalk

sideboard

4 Hide//Seek
4 Sphere of Resistance
2 Diabolic edict // Cruel Edict
2 Chains of Mephisopheles
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation

[FTKzak]

Awesome, Awesome deck vroman. It's like a hodgepodge of all the non-blue allstar cards that don't get played enough...Bazaar, REB, Lavamancer, Maze, Riftstone Portal, Bobs.

I didn't realize this thread had been started when I posted in the thread for Liek's report, so I'll repeat my comments and questions:

I've been messing around with it for a couple weeks, and the changes you have made make good sense. I like the addition of the second portal, but I'm not sure if Urborg is the one to switch it for. I'm tempted to say that Bazaar could be dropped down to a 3x for that portal or for more Waste effects.

@Vroman: The chalices really seem to hinder the deck's gameplan as much as the opponent's, so maindeck REBs are a good change. I was typically siding chalices and leylines for REBs and 2sphers all the time anyways. Out of curiosity - what are you typically hiding or seeking?

Maze of Ith is pretty much the all-star in this deck against GAT. Once you get it out, you can use it to lock down their side until you can swing in with mindcensor or burn them out with the lavamancer. Maze is so good in the GAT matchup that my test partner has switched LoA for Strip Mine!

I'm in the process of piecing enough of this deck together to get it to 15proxy...so hopefully in the near future I can add some more tournament results!

[ReAnimator]

Out of curiosity; why Caves of Koilos over Scrubland?

[goobafish]

Massacre.

[madmanmike25]

Ive always liked Portals and Bazaars.  Do you think Jotun Grunt might be deserving of some SB slots?  Your biggest creature can only do 2 dmg(unless its a pumped factory).  Would Grunt be a faster clock, and be able to stay around longer with Bazaars?

What is your current opinion of Chalice nowadays?  Is it subpar in decks that do NOT run workshops?

p.s. What about "Bob's over Baghdad" for deck name?

[vroman]

@madmanmike
jotun grunt was originaly in the deck and got replaced by leyline. jotgrunt is basicaly irelevent against ichorid now. I needed something immediate and final to handle the ichorid problem, and wo serum powder I wanted to maximize my chances of winning the muliganing contest. I certainly miss the clock jotgrunt provides, but theres already enough yard hate, and if I want pure efficient beats, Id run tombstalker or tarmogoyf or negator.
Chalice is waning in relevence. I havnt seen bomberman in months. flash can easily make its 2nd land drop and win on the spot. Gat frequently doesnt even play full moxen. the danger of decks replaying lotus multiple times via yawgwill is less omnipresent. chalice@1 is still strong play, but this deck suffers from lots of 1 drops, far in excess of what stax normaly trips up on. I hate having to pitch [duress, lavaman, recall] to bazaar. chalice@2 is not common enough play to seriously consider as an asset. typically I dont put mana on the board past #3, unless im trying to redzone w multiple factories. I slowroll mana until I need it, or in hope of drawing bazaar.
as for the name, Ive been suggested "Bazaar of Koilos" and "Lava Owls"

@FTKzak
hide/seek is backup plan for the preceeding batch of tier decks that still show up (oath, ritual tendrils) which folded to Extract effects. the card is just so versatile. its super-disenchant vs stax. Extracting haste sliver is actually very strong play vs flash.

[Myriad Games]

Awesome deck, well aside from those two pesky blue cards 

I agree with your comments on most every card. I really do consider this a version of The Mountains Win Again since it runs so many overlapping cards. The Lava Owls subtitle in hilarious. Glad to hear it's performing well for you. I find the major point of divergence in deckbuilding between this and my current build is the presence (or lack) of Magus. Running Magus makes running non-basic utility lands like Bazaar and Factory so much less effective. Definitely a good call on the Caves of Koilos as protection from Massacre. I concur that Chalice is losing much of it's oomph in the current metagame. We'll see if things change this weekend with the September 1st B/R Update. If you would, try out Cruel Edict and let me know how you like it. I haven't had enough opportunities to test it against GAT or Bomberman or even Fish where it's relevant. I think it could be really worthwhile to have a Misdirection-proof removal for any-size creature, especially when you're playing so many guys you want to protect. Why not run REB over Pyroblast in this deck? I lost a game to Rich Shay due to running Pyroblast, and I was justifying it in my build by getting Hellbent for Poppet and Raiders. Now I think in most of those matchups I'd rather just counter one of the myriad of blue spells to get Hellbent rather than risk getting my Tog or Fish destruction Misdirected to a land.

[FTKzak]

I agree that those two blue cards are really pesky! It's a common situation where they just sit in hand cause City of Brass is nowhere to be found. Having another REB maindeck or maybe a Smother/Edict type effect instead of Recall and Timewalk may be worth skipping out on the random times that you can use and protect the blue bombs. Of the two, I think I would cut Recall before Timewalk.

[Irenicus]

Just as a sidenote:

Pyroblast is always superior to REB, because BOTH can be misdirected! I know that Pyroblast can target everything, but Misdirection is blue and therefore REB can be misdirected on the Misdirection itself. The arguments for Pyroblast are that it can provide Threshold, cards for Lavamancer/Grunt, Storm and in addtional you can play it before you get slavered.

[goobafish]

Just as a sidenote:

Pyroblast is always superior to REB, because BOTH can be misdirected! I know that Pyroblast can target everything, but Misdirection is blue and therefore REB can be misdirected on the Misdirection itself. The arguments for Pyroblast are that it can provide Threshold, cards for Lavamancer/Grunt, Storm and in addtional you can play it before you get slavered.

If you REB a blue permanent, It cannot be misdirected unless there is another blue permanent in play.

[horse the name]

I agree that those two blue cards are really pesky! It's a common situation where they just sit in hand cause City of Brass is nowhere to be found. Having another REB maindeck or maybe a Smother/Edict type effect instead of Recall and Timewalk may be worth skipping out on the random times that you can use and protect the blue bombs. Of the two, I think I would cut Recall before Timewalk.

If you're thinking about cutting the 2 blue cards, would it make sense to take it 1 step further and cut the 2 green cards as well in favor of a more stable manabase? I don't have any experience with the deck but it seems like it would be difficult to support 5 colors when 7 of your lands only produce colorless mana and 5 other lands don't produce mana at all.

[FTKzak]

I agree that those two blue cards are really pesky! It's a common situation where they just sit in hand cause City of Brass is nowhere to be found. Having another REB maindeck or maybe a Smother/Edict type effect instead of Recall and Timewalk may be worth skipping out on the random times that you can use and protect the blue bombs. Of the two, I think I would cut Recall before Timewalk.

If you're thinking about cutting the 2 blue cards, would it make sense to take it 1 step further and cut the 2 green cards as well in favor of a more stable manabase? I don't have any experience with the deck but it seems like it would be difficult to support 5 colors when 7 of your lands only produce colorless mana and 5 other lands don't produce mana at all.

I think that green is very necessary just for Crop Rotation and Life From the Loam. The ability to tutor up any land is very important, and LftL has the ability to get you out of some tough situations...it recycyles blockers, card draw, strip effects...to me it seems like it is more important than the blue cards. With that said, the green enablers help the white component just as much as the green, so I don't think the manabase would be much more stable if green cards were removed. Blue depends on City of Brass alone, while both green and white can be played off City and if Portals are in the GY.

[vroman]

@dan Y
I just ordered two imperial edicts from cardshark. I'll post my results. also, due to your amusement, Lava Owls is the name until further notice.

If you REB a blue permanent, It cannot be misdirected unless there is another blue permanent in play.

interesting. so Reb is surely the better choice, bc the ability to transfer a card from hand to yard for low, low cost of R, is not the bargain I was looking for.
unless its still better to run the mix to slightly weaken meddling mage and extirpate. if we're going to be splitting hairs over this card choice, then the debate comes down to which of these situations is worse, and/or more likely
A) you prioritize Reb, but run some minority number of pblast and then-
you're holding pblast rather than Reb, want to target blue permanent, at time enemy is able and willing to use misD
vs
B) you run only Reb and then-
enemy names Reb w meddling mage, and you are tapped out of red while holding Reb, or you draw Reb later.
similarly, you have Reb in yard, which is then Extirpated

keep in mind that reb/pblast are predominantly used as counterspells, not as spot removal, making situation A marginal
also, extirpating or meddling Reb is very weak, except in the further complicated scenario when enemy has information about your hand from duress or Dconf, and they choose to attack Reb strictly for hand denial purposes. thus making situation B marginal.
are you more likely to face a deck w misD and blue permanents other than meddling mage; or a deck w meddling mage/extirpate?
given that both A and B are fairly unlikely, which is more problematic?
in situation A, if your willing to invest a card to destroy a blue permanent, rather than hold back to counter one of the infi game-stealing blue spells in this format, then that permanent is probably a major threat, ie psychatog, or Mmage naming something realistic like lavaman, which could let you gain control of the game. having your spot removal misdirected could very plausibly turn the tide against you. if enemy is willing to 2-for-1 themselves to save their permanent, you probly want it dead just as badly as they want it to live. so if situation A does occur, however unlikely, its most certainly bad for you.
on the other hand in situation B) Mmage naming Reb doesnt seem very scary, unless you absolutely cant deal w 2/2 in other ways; or they're able to cast bomb blue spells in the interim that cost you the game. Lava Owls packs abundant creature removal and tutors, so their Mmage play isnt any worse than any other tempo-stealing fish play you will face. extirpating Reb is actually worse, esp if it costs you cards in hand that could have been pitched to bazaar when nerfed (as in the Mmage scenario) however extirpating Reb is probly never going to happen. extirpate is typicly sidebd card when its played at all, and doubtful extirpate would be brought in against Lava Owls to start with. so situation B is relatively painless

my instinct is situation B is far less likely and less disastrous, than the already unlikely and marginaly disastrous situation A. therefore running only Reb is the correct call. let me know if Im missing something.

@horse the name
2 blue cards w 7 sources in the deck is not that risky. the times Ive been stuck holding uncastable P9s are the exception. after watching it happen 2 or 3 times, Ive realized need to be extremely disciplined w bazaar, and be prepared to throw away blue power if the mana doesnt show up in top 2; rather than toss castable minor threats and do nothing, hoping to hit blue source the next turn.
Ive run ubastax builds w 4 red cards (and X more side) and only 8 red sources, 2 of which were turned off by null rod; and that was not an issue.
green is definitely staying, thanks to double riftstone. also if I were to cut blue, Id probly add more green: rootmaze, ie the chalice that matters.

[Petro_Nor]

Just as a sidenote:

Pyroblast is always superior to REB, because BOTH can be misdirected! I know that Pyroblast can target everything, but Misdirection is blue and therefore REB can be misdirected on the Misdirection itself. The arguments for Pyroblast are that it can provide Threshold, cards for Lavamancer/Grunt, Storm and in addtional you can play it before you get slavered.

If you REB a blue permanent, It cannot be misdirected unless there is another blue permanent in play.

This is not true, you can misdirectiobn a REB targeting missdirection, is not a permanent but is a blue spell and is legal target for REB

[goobafish]

Just as a sidenote:

Pyroblast is always superior to REB, because BOTH can be misdirected! I know that Pyroblast can target everything, but Misdirection is blue and therefore REB can be misdirected on the Misdirection itself. The arguments for Pyroblast are that it can provide Threshold, cards for Lavamancer/Grunt, Storm and in addtional you can play it before you get slavered.

If you REB a blue permanent, It cannot be misdirected unless there is another blue permanent in play.

This is not true, you can misdirectiobn a REB targeting missdirection, is not a permanent but is a blue spell and is legal target for REB

I don't think that is right, I did this at gencon and the judge ruled that it could not be misdirected, unless the judge was wrong.

Any anyways read the oracle text on REB.

Choose one - Counter target blue spell; or destroy target blue permanent.

You choose one when you play the spell, when it is being misdirected you cannot change it.

[Myriad Games]

Hooray for Lava Owls!

I'll refer to it as a cousin of TMWA. 

When I originally thought of running the sorcery speed Edicts, I thought that Imperial Edict was different from Cruel Edict (I thought Diabolic Edict and Cruel Edict were exactly the same aside for speed) so I was convinced I'd have to get some of those more elusive Portal cards to play them. I was proxying them for a little while until a fellow player pointed out that Cruel Edict is exactly the same as Imperial Edict. I'll look forward to hearing how they test for you.

I believe your breakdown of REB vs. Pyroblast in this play environment is accurate. While I certainly see someone siding in REB against your relatively relevant graveyard dependent cards (Loam, Barbarian Ring, Riftstone Portal, Strip, etc), I don't think it's a good sideboard decision unless the rest of their options are marginal at best. I feel like REB is a good replacement for Pyroblast right now.

Rules confirmation for those still in doubt: Both REB and P-Blast are modal, so they have to either target a spell or a permanent once that mode has been chosen. The key difference is that P-Blast can target any spell or any permanent (depending on which mode has been chosen) whereas REB must target a blue permanent or a blue spell (again depending on the mode). So either one works just as well when countering spells, since your opponent can just Misdirect the REB/P-Blast to the Misdirection. When targeting a blue permanent, however, P-Blast can be Misdirected to any random permanent while REB cannot be Misdirected unless there is another valid target (i.e. another blue permanent) in play. As noted here, a mix helps avoid splash damage from Meddling Mage, Extirpate, Cabal Therapy, etc.

I'll be interested to see how the Root Mazes replacing 2 pesky blue cards works out.

[Sephiroth]

Hi,
I like this deck very much, but i have a doubt...
pithing needle is not extremely bad agains ours bazars??
How you face it ?
thanks.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I'm having problems here.  I look at this list and others like it and it all makes sense to me.  Good hate, synergies, some clock; it looks like it should be quite good.  However, I playtest it and I end up getting rolled consistently (this is similar to my experiences trying out PMITA).  I know you've won power with it, and that you've got a good handle on the format in general, so I'm really hoping you can clear this up for me.  Why can't I get this deck to perform?

Here are the problems I usually run into in matchups:

1)  Wrong kind of hate or Johnny come lately - This is when I have duress, and they drop trinket mage, or when they scroll up ancestral the turn before I draw REB.  I'm not saying this helps the situation, but I'm coming from the perspective of playing blue based combo control; I'm used to having much greater control over developing a large hand of answers and at being able to filter my hand to what the situation needs (usually via brainstorm).  I find that even though I feel I'm playing the best metagamed disruption with this deck, it doesn't always (or even often) come when and how I need it.

2)  Out gunned or gunned down Bob - Because of the prominence of Merchant Scroll, most decks are casting ancestral recall early and consistently.  (quick aside: You mention the strength of duress on turn 1 merchant scroll>x (recall).  I'm not denying that, but that would also be one of my most relunctant lines of play as a GAT, etc player.  Good players won't go get the recall unless they can cast it that turn or they have no other options.)  Since this kind of card advantage is often up early for other decks, it puts additional pressure on this to get bob active.

I stand by my position that bazaar is the best draw engine in magic.

You may find this to be semantics, but I don't.  Draw engines usually refer to card advantage engines.  Bazaar is the opposite of this.  I know it's great at filtering away dead cards, and it has synergy with bob, but increasing the number of threats you have is something it fails miserably at.  In workshop decks this isn't as much of a factor because you can use Welder and Crucible to turn grave into advantage; as you've said, this deck isn't nearly as adept at this angle.  Because of this lack of advantage, I find that if either they can remove Bob, if I don't find Bob early enough (early is key), or if they get far enough ahead, there's no way to come back.

Falling behind - I often find myself in an uphill battle.

-mana denial as a strategy is at an all time low

In PMITA (granted it was a very different metagame) the combination of sphere, wastes, and shaman allowed that you could slow down your opponent and give your bob time to rebuild your hand.  Granted, Ichorid is very different than how most decks operate.  However, even Flash can be put under mana pressure rather easily by the usual stuff (even chalice is good here).  Sure, GAT can dodge strip effects, but it's completely hosed by sphere unless it tries to slow roll you with Dryad (which should play into your plan).  Regardless of the matchup, I just feel like Leyline doesn't do enough, duress is too temporary, and mindcensor is too slow at stopping opposing engines.  They simply play better cards and they usually have more of them than Bob and Bazaar can muster if they get online.

-Ive yet to find an untenable matchup.

Isn't the Oath matchup pretty bad?  Aren't you in ICBM country?  Is hide/seek enough?  I've also found Landstill to be brutal.  Granted, these are dedicated board control decks, but being a metagame deck can get pretty rough in a diverse field.

REB vs Pyroblast

You guys are getting way too into this.  If you run dryads or tendrils, find room for pyroblast; otherwise, REB is your man.  If they name REB with meddling mage you should be pumped.


I hope you don't take this as 'OMG your deck sux'.  Like I said, it obviously performs, and I definitely respect your deck building and playing abilities.  However, maybe because I'm too used to blue-based archetypes, I just can't get this to work.  I've pointed out where I see the weaknesses (in my experience) and I'm hoping you can give me some ideas and get beyond this disconnect.

[Polynomial P]

First of all, i think this is a very good deck in the current metagame and I hope that it can be adapted to any metagame shift after the upcoming banned and restricted update.

GI, I know that you have won multiple pieces of power and are a vintage adept, but you may not be piloting it correctly. To pilot this deck (and PMITA) correctly you have to have the proper mentality (just like you have to have the proper mentality to properly play a control deck right). This deck is a very long term plan deck and your decisions must be made on how to address things several turns in advance. Every time you make a play you have to think "How am I going to get another turn?" Unfortunately these decks punish mistakes heavily since they dont come from behind very well. I saw Vroman make 2 marginal mistakes in the Vintage Champs and it cost him 2 Matches because of it.

1) Wrong hate or Johnny come lately: That is an issue with these metagame hate decks and why most of the hate tries to be as universal as possible. The rest of the hate is filtered with bazaar. Bazaar is the second most important card in these type of decks, outclassed only by dark confidant. There are also hate cards that deal with the casting of spells, like REB and duress, and if those fail, you can deal with spells after their resolution with STP, Lavamancer, Maze of Ith, Balance, and SB artifact/Enchantment destruction.

2) Outgunned or gun downed bob: Getting bob active is certainly critical to the success of the deck, but there are many other paths to victory. Bazaar is also very critical to the success of the deck and contributes to as many wins as bob himself. Its not the number of cards in hand that is important, nor is it the lands in play, it is the number of theats you resolve and producing a threat per turn is often too much for combo-control decks to deal with.

For example, against GAT, they have 5 win conditions...all of which are creatures. They are going to outdraw you, but if they dont produce a creature in the first 3 turns you are going to win. If you resolve 1 tutor, you can get Maze of ith-now they either need 2 creatures or time walk to win. You will find STPs, balance, life-->factories as the game goes on. Duresses and rebs will protect your answers to their creatures and help in their resolution. Mindcensors eventually will start bashing for 2 a turn and limit their options. If you get a lavamancer in play then there will be an additional 2 damage a turn. If you get a bazaar in play (even without bob) you will produce 1 good threat every other turn....and if you slow the opponent down enough you are going to win....after about 15 turns. This is why it is so critical to play the deck correctly and to always ensure that you see 1 more turn.

Duress is very temporary and I actually cut it out of PMITA before I stopped playing the deck. Ive been disappointed with mana denial strategies lately...I know that they are theoretically good vs Flash and Gat, but in practice Flash wins before you get enough down to stop them and GAT makes spheres, chalice, and wastes irrelevent with Fastbond, gush, and infi tutors to find them.

Mindcensor is slow, but because the strategy of these decks is to slow down your opponent and to ensure yourself that extra turn mindcensor becomes relevant relatively early in the game (turns 2-4 of 14-15 total turns).

Bottom line is that these decks are not easy to play and are unforgiving. I think that having a stax background would help in playing this deck properly (or even a fish background) because everything those decks do is designed to see one more turn until you kill the opponent.

[WhiteWolf]

@ Polynomial P: A very good description of the playstyle of the deck I believe!

@ vroman (and others of course): Did you ever consider or test the following cards:

- Extirpate: very nice with Duress, can be crippling, replacing REB probably
- Glowrider: this proved very good in a monowhite man-prison deck I tested some weeks ago. It also ran Mindcensor and maindeck Spheres
- Root Maze: was in the earliest versions I know, but seems pretty powerful. Probably in place of the REBs. Screws with all fetchlands and especially nice against the Gush-Fastbond engine. Would ask for a more green-dedicated manabase with 4 each of City of Brass and Gemstone Mine OR green duals
- Tarmogoyf: Comes together with Root Maze I guess. Very nice beater, especially because you can Bazaar-discard all spell-types with this deck, even excess artifact mana, Leylines and Root Mazes. Sometimes I feel the deck could use a better/faster clock. Jotun Grunt is nice but interferes with Lavamancer too much I fear. Tombstalker is also very nice but dangerous with Confidant.
- Mesmeric Fiend: A legged Duress
- Oath of Ghouls: Very nice utility that got used in similar decks and fish decks in the past. Nice synergy with Bazaar, now you can even discard critters.
- Maindeck artifact-hate: Sometimes Stax and/or Chalice @ 1 can be harsh I guess. Shaman and Vandal are good but fall prey to Chalice @ 1. Hearth Kami is nice but sucks against more expensive artifacts. Heretic is quit pricey for this deck. Kataki seems an interesting option if more artifact-hate is needed.
- Maindeck Hide/Seek: Would give extra maindeck solutions against Oath, Stax, ... and a (semi)-kill against some decks. Probably in place of REB.
- Maindeck Sphere of Resistance: In a lot of cases better than Chalice in this deck.
- Extra Wastelands
- Sideboard Serenity: I always thought this was a good sideboard (anti-stax) card if you could afford the color and didn't screw yourself too much.
- ...

As you see, for me the most "open" slots are the Chalices/REBs.

I'm pretty excited about this deck and curious to see it evolve.

WhiteWolf

[MafiaKingpin]

Vroman could you explain your current sideboard and your plan for it? 

Also, what do you think about AetherFlash.  I know it kills your own creatures but will allow for you to just have a kill by the factories in the deck.  Kinda screwy I know but an interesting thought.  Maybe be used in mono red stax?

[vroman]

Vroman could you explain your current sideboard and your plan for it? 
Also, what do you think about AetherFlash. 

this is what Im running now
4 hideseek - tendrils, oath, stax, flash
4 resistor - gat, tendrils, ichorid
2 cruel edict - oath, gat, fish, ~ichorid
2 chains - gat, tendrils, rector-flash
3 extirpate - unknown, testing

aether flash costs 4. end of discussion.

@whitewolf
- Extirpate: this is tempting. Ive never played w it before, but will test. it seems useful in wide variety of matchups, maybe its maindeck worthy.
- Glowrider: mana denial is not really the purpose of the deck. that was man-prison. that said, this is sorcery speed 3drop
- Root Maze: this card is brutal on the play, but an auto-board out on the draw. in testing it felt real swingy. also I refuse to run gemstone mine. that land is terrible.
- Tarmogoyf: Id definitely run jotgrunt first. interference w lavamancer is hardly the issue. its the fact that leyline is better and I cant justify that much yard hate slots, and I wont play a beater w/o some added utility.
- Mesmeric Fiend: all my experience and everything Ive been told, is this guys not worth it. Id play hymn first.
- Oath of Ghouls: this card is synergistic, but basicly is strictly worse than Dconf, since it cant attack, and doesnt do anything on its own, and possibly can backfire.
- Maindeck artifact-hate: kataki is an interesting choice, but really if I want artifact hate, it would be either Hide or ancient grudge
- Maindeck Hide/Seek: Im not terribly scared of oath and stax. crucible+waste obv murders me, but atleast theres leyline.
- Maindeck Sphere of Resistance - certainly better than chalice, but not powerful enough in this strategy against meta as whole. I only bring it in vs gat and tendrils.
- Extra Wastelands - Im not convinced wasteland is good right now
- Sideboard Serenity - meh. mass removal isnt that atractive. its hard to beat hide/seek

[Cunningbeaver]

Just as a sidenote:

Pyroblast is always superior to REB, because BOTH can be misdirected! I know that Pyroblast can target everything, but Misdirection is blue and therefore REB can be misdirected on the Misdirection itself. The arguments for Pyroblast are that it can provide Threshold, cards for Lavamancer/Grunt, Storm and in addtional you can play it before you get slavered.

If you REB a blue permanent, It cannot be misdirected unless there is another blue permanent in play.

This is not true, you can misdirectiobn a REB targeting missdirection, is not a permanent but is a blue spell and is legal target for REB

I don't think that is right, I did this at gencon and the judge ruled that it could not be misdirected, unless the judge was wrong.

Any anyways read the oracle text on REB.

Choose one - Counter target blue spell; or destroy target blue permanent.

You choose one when you play the spell, when it is being misdirected you cannot change it.

From looking it up on starcity than clicking the rules link about the card. IT would appear that your judge, unfortunately, was wrong.

http://www.starcitygames.com/pages/judgefinder.php?keywords=Red+Elemental+Blast

Q: I have Ophidian in play and I cast Morphling. In response my opponent plays Red Elemental Blast targetting my Morphling on the stack. Can I play Misdirection, making the Red Elemental Blast target my Ophidian?

A: No. Red Elemental Blast is a modal spell. You can change the target of Red Elemental Blast with Misdirection, but you cannot change its mode. In other words, you can make this Blast target another blue spell [I suggest the Misdirection that is currently resolving... -Seamus], but you can't make it target a blue permanent

[goobafish]

No. The judge was right. You misread my post.

I REBed my opponent's Psychatog and the judge said that my opponent couldn't misdirect the REB to the Misdirection.

[Cunningbeaver]

Indeed I did. My mistake I missed the first part of the original quote saying he was targeting a permanent and then wanted to misdirect to a spell.

[FTKzak]

As a follow up to the Root Maze idea, I've been testing it out a little bit, and I like the way the card works in the deck a lot. I took out Ancestral Recall and Time Walk for 2x Root Maze. The Recall hasn't been missed at all, but there have been a couple situations where I could really have used the Time Walk.

The list I'm currently working with is running 3x REB and 3x Swords instead of CotV. I've run into a couple spots where red mana was really hard to come by for the REBs and Lavamancer activations, so there might be a need to shift the manabase a little to better support the red (WotC, please print a Riftstone Portal that gives R and B to all lands!).

Another idea that may be worth trying is Nantuko Monastery. It's a faster clock than Factory, but I'm not sure if the Threshold requirement will be too conflicting with Lavamancers, not to mention the double colored activation cost compared to colorless for factory. If Barbarian Ring has a spot though, why not Monastery?

[onl1]

i like the deck but i dont understand why you will take out 2 power pices for root maze i would rather take out two Grim Lavamancer and that would be better you might be able to part with recall but i would keep time walk and i dont think that the monastery is a good idea i think you just might get rid of the rings with just basic land or something that dosent require threshld if you wana use the lavamancer so you dont have to worry abouat your grave yard then you dont have to worry abouat wasteland on your rings

[vroman]

nantuko monastary is awkward to activate and quite slow. I want to be able to drop factory + mox and block immediately, for example against turn 1 lackey. b-ring is playable, bc its a searchable finisher and spot removal. Ive had games vs Gat for example where Ive gotten them to 1-2 and been unable to seal the deal. plus tapping for red is a lot better than another colorless source.
Ive concluded that 4xplowshare is necesary now. all the tier decks have creatures today.
Im adding yawgwill, bc I frequently bazaar away lotus if I already have 3-4 mana on board.
Im trying volrath stronghold as slow recursion+mana source+defense against brainfreeze.
lastly I miss jotun grunt, but need hardcore yard hate, so am cutting redblast for extirpate

so new test list
4 bazaar
1 mazith
4 brass
4 factory
2 riftstone
2 badland
2 koilos
1 tomb yawg
1 volrath
1 b-ring
5 mox
1 lotus (I cut petal)
1 crop
1 lifeloam
1 timewalk
1 recall
1 yawgwil
1 dtutor
1 vtutor
1 balance
4 plowshare
4 duress
4 Dconf
4 lavaman
3 jotgrunt
3 mindcensor
3 extirpate
side
4 resistor
4 hideseek
3 redblast
2 chains
2 imperial edict

[WhiteWolf]

@ vroman: Your latest list looks very close to one of the two testlists I have on paper. I took the deck in two different directions. One is the more "traditional" list with Chalice/Leyline and the other list replaces these with Grunt/Extirpate. The reasoning for the second list was:

1) Extirpate seems powerful (Extirpate on Gush!) and replaces Chalices
2) Extirpates (and in a lesser way Grunt) don't work well with Leyline AND I wanted a quicker clock SO Grunt replaced Leyline

I came to this list:

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant
4 Jotun Grunt
4 Aven Mindcensor

1 Life from the Loam

4 Duress

1 Crop Rotation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor

4 Bazaar of Baghdad

1 Maze of Ith
4 Extirpate
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance

4 City of Brass
4 Mishra’s Factory
2 Badlands
2 Caves of Koilos
2 Riftstone Portal
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire

Sideboard

4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Hide/Seek
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Cruel Edict

As you can see I cut the 2 power blue to round out Grunt and Mindcensor to 4. Mindcensor is just too good and Grunt is the much needed clock (and defense muscle in some match-ups). Another difference is a fourth Extirpate, Strip Mine and Petal over your Ring, Tomb, Stronghold and Will (you seem to play 61 cards by the way). Im certainly not saying these differences are better or worse, they just fit my style better. I must admit though Will looks pretty strong here. Often (like in always) multiple artifact mana, lands, ... are discarded to Bazaar. That could give some nice Will-plays.

This version adds some clock and nice Extirpate plays but seems to weaken the Ichorid and Flash match-up. I wonder wich is best.

greetings
WhiteWolf