SCG Indianapolis Updates

[Implacable]

This is what Moxlotus wrote:

"If most of the best players opt for the same deck (or within a few cards), doesn't that say something itself?"

Gifts in its final form (Ritual Gifts) and Long were the same deck to within a few cards. The differences were cosmetic at best. These were the decks that nearly everybody who was good was piloting in the dying days of Gifts.

That's what's happening now as well, with Gush.

If you really want to continue this line of argumentation then all I have to say to you is "GAT is a creature deck and Gush Tendrils is a storm deck! They're totally not the same! Remeber Gencon with its diverse top 8! Flash didn't top 8 again, Vintage is still about skill!" with a few 1's and eleventy's and "ones" added in there for good measure.

I like arguments based in postulates.  I can't always or even usually use them, but they work for me.  So allow me to indulge myself:

1) Almost all Vintage decks will use broken cards.  It can't be helped; why run Concentrate when you can run Recall?  Call this the Broken Postulate. 

1)
b) The logical extension of this theory is that almost all Vintage decks will superficially resemble one another.  For example, Stax and Gifts, two decks as diametrically opposed as is imaginable, still shared more than 1/6 of their total deck space.

1)
c) Almost all Vintage decks will attempt to abuse these broken cards.  The difference between use and abuse is certainly subjective, but will be defined as this: use is the playing of a card in a deck; abuse is the design of a deck to abuse a card.  Gifts abuses Ancestral; G.A.T. abuses Fastbond; most of the format abuses Yawgmoth's Will.

Now, to root my argument in (b) and (c), Gifts and Long not only resembled each other, but also abused the same cards.  This is true, and this subject was addressed most intelligently by Stephen Menendian in his Ladders article.  However, the truth cannot be avoided that they abused cards in different ways; Long aggressively sought a minimal Will or Draw 7, while Gifts controlled and went off at its leisure with Will, or just Emptied early for a slower kill.  Therefore, from this argument, we draw (d):

1)
d) The differences between decks that superficially resemble each other (b) are not what cards they abuse, but how they abuse them.

By (d), Gifts and Long were different because they abused broken cards in different ways.  I hypothesize that the most fundamental differences between decks are the their engines.  Ultimately, when decks are paired, the Flores 'Beatdown' rule defines their roles in the given matchup, and the assignment of aggro v. control is defined by the speed and/or efficiency of the engines that power the decks.  Was a Gifts v. Long matchup simply a race to see who went off faster?  If it was, then wouldn't Long always win?  It's this reasoning that invalidates the fallacy of Gifts and Long being 'the same'.

As an addendum, of course G.A.T. and Gush Tendrils are the same.  They are less than 10 cards different from each other and more importantly use the exact same engine to power their Yawgmoth's Will or Fastbond-fueled kills.  That argument that they are different is facetious.

[Smmenen]

Not to mention, Dryad is pretty much a Storm card 

[nartman99]

Wow, so that is how this event turned out. Congrats to the top 8, especially Doug Linn, for a stellar performance. I haven't seen that guy win anything for a long time...

[Hydra]

Feinstein can't have all the credit. I 2-0'd Smenenen earlier with the power of Deez Noughts... Ofcourse Hi-Val got me back, but thats besides the point.

Yeah, and you also beat me in 3 to knock me out of contention too, my deck just loved me that round.  Go go hardcast Slivers!

[Maxx]

I scrubbed out at 4-3-1, beating Oath, Stax, MUD (I think?), and UWR Fish.  I lost to RBG Madness (because I am an idiot who can't read, I threw away game 2), UWR Fish, and Ichorid, tying with what I think was Gush Tendrils.

This was my first Vintage tournament since we don't have any local tournaments, so I guess I did alright.  Most everyone I met was really friendly, so I had a great time.

I was the guy in the "Dance Dance Revolution" shirt playing Ichorid, in case you saw me there.

[TopSecret]

Just to let people know,
skilled players top 8'ing has nothing to do with metagame diversity.
People are convoluting the concept of format health
by arguing about metagame diversity and the value of skill in the format
as if they are the same thing.

A metagame can be skill testing, even if everyone is playing the same deck.
However, everyone playing the same deck is a whole other matter;
it is indicative of a stagnant metagame in terms of deck diversity and viability.

When only one deck is viable,
Wizards usually bans/restricts something,
regardless of how skill intensive the deck is.

If people treat the value of skill in the format and the deck diversity in the format as the same thing,
there will be no productive discussion.

PS: Congratulations to the Top 8!

[Moxlotus]

The fact that AT LEAST FIVE of the EIGHT players are incredibly good Vintage players indicates that skill took this top 8. These guys could have probably placed highly with Bomberman or Stax or some other top-tier archetype (of which there are more than three *gasp* how often could you say that about Vintage?). However GAT is the only Yawgmoth's Will deck in the top tier, and historically the best players in this format always gravitate towards the power of Yawgmoth. Why? Because doing broken things twice is fun.
 

Look at this top 8 that had a number of amazing players.  I don't even follow the pro tour, but I immediately recognize the names Ben Rubin and Sigurd Eskeland.  Sigurd got 2nd in the Invitational that Mike Long won.  I believe Rubin just got inducted into the hall of fame?  Or he works for wizards or something. 

http://www.wizards.com/sideboard/article.asp?x=PTNY9900/top8decks

Skill was king then too.  A large variety of different sideboard strategies too.  Voice of Reason=genius for the time!  Or the tech of story circle--that would be a golf club to the head.  Ben Rubin even just put Lin Sivvi's into his sideboard to show that that brokeness isn't even needed and he woudl ride to the finals on skill alone. 

Still doesn't mean that metagame was healthy.  Hell, in that metagame there were 2 decks in the top 8 that didn't use the dominant engine of the time(sivvi)--indy only had 1 top8 that didn't use the dominant engine (scroll/gush).

Just to let people know,
skilled players top 8'ing has nothing to do with metagame diversity.
People are convoluting the concept of format health
by arguing about metagame diversity and the value of skill in the format
as if they are the same thing.

A metagame can be skill testing, even if everyone is playing the same deck.
However, everyone playing the same deck is a whole other matter;
it is indicative of a stagnant metagame in terms of deck diversity and viability.

When only one deck is viable,
Wizards usually bans/restricts something,
regardless of how skill intensive the deck is.

If people treat the value of skill in the format and the deck diversity in the format as the same thing,
there will be no productive discussion.

QFT

[MarkPharaoh]

just got home - some other notable items in top 16 were 10th place R/G beatz (kird ape, tarmogoyf, skyshroud elite, etc) at 6-2 (same record as shay and doug) and nick antes with a u/r/b landstill/mask deck.

@ Rich - a real sit down dinner did hit the spot...

I really want to see that Landstill/Mask decklist

[Hi-Val]

omg PIX!



From L--R: LyleH, Mike Bomholt and Jimmy (LordHomerCat)



Some total random who pleaded with me me to take a picture of him



What the Library looks like after closing time.



Yours truly on the left, playing Jim E. in the T8.



The Creator of Type 4, Paul Mastriano on the left, playing Owen in the T8.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

just got home - some other notable items in top 16 were 10th place R/G beatz (kird ape, tarmogoyf, skyshroud elite, etc) at 6-2 (same record as shay and doug) and nick antes with a u/r/b landstill/mask deck.

@ Rich - a real sit down dinner did hit the spot...

I really want to see that Landstill/Mask decklist

I'll see you @ Chicago, right?  ... Or you can check it out when the decklists are posted. 13th place, Nicolae Antes.. FBB Scrubland for my hardships- Woot!

[Titanium Dragon]

I concur, one event does not a meta make. If too many major events show the same thing though, Gush, Brainstorm, or Merchant Scroll needs to be restricted, most likely Gush. But you guys are leaping on a single T8.

And hey, Ichorid is still good! A deck with no mana always makes me smile.

[Flux]

Jim Erlinger beat, I believe, 3 Tog decks, including one piloted by Rich Shay, and was ranked first after six rounds.

Ichorid is no joke.

And how about the skill level required to pilot it?

Top of the line.  And it was four gush decks, three of which were piloted by exceptional players.  Congrats to Doug, I had a great time playing against him.  I think that Ichorid has an amazing matchup against gush decks, and thatis why I chose to play ichord. Ichorid is a linear deck, but it does require skill to top eight with it, and a little bit of luck.

[Mr. Type 4]

Hot - you can see my sweet ass playmat in my picture. 

Congratualtions to Doug on a fine performance, the man was on fire all day - I knew you had it in you!

Also congratulations to Steve Menendian for stealing an English Imperial Seal in a side event, pretty good.

I had a pretty good day out there, my mana crypt loved me, I think I took damage on about 3 rolls out of a good 20.  I did have Necropotence, which was is a pretty serious bomb.  My friend Josh Morford had been working on a Gush combo deck for over a month and when I was testing GAT against him last week I went like 2-12 against it, so I was like "I'm playing THAT at Star City."  I changed 2 cards and made up a sideboard.. it was pretty good.  I beat GAT 3 times on the day, drew twice with Stax, and beat UW Fish, UWR bomberman and a VERY similar deck that Jeremy S. was playing (that's his LOA in the pictures up there). 

Congratualtions to the rest of top 8.  It was a sweet tournament. 

As far as the format goes... It's hard to say that there's a problem inherent in the cards when so many of the best players decide to run Gush, but still, there was alot of freakin Gushes out there.  Where were the Flash decks?  Is it just that not too many good players are running it?  Hard to say.  Tune in next time to see how that all resolves.

I'll see you all at the next big one,
       -Paul

[NicolaeAlmighty]

Also congratulations to Steve Menendian for stealing an English Imperial Seal in a side event, pretty good.

He split for that Seal as I recall... Didn't want to risk losing to Deez Noughts again, eh?

[Liek]

So we've got this nice big thread here, but I can't seem to find the name of the winner. CTRL F didn't even help me.

Who the hell won?

I don't want to know if two people split, I want to know who's name goes next to "First Place."

[Hi-Val]

So we've got this nice big thread here, but I can't seem to find the name of the winner. CTRL F didn't even help me.

Who the hell won?

I don't want to know if two people split, I want to know who's name goes next to "First Place."

Owen and I split without determining a winner, with the gentlemanly agreement that when someone asked us if we won, we should say yes. I'd like to think we're co-champions. It would have been a good final bout but with less than an hour to conduct the game before the venue kicked us out, as well as myriad other reasons, we decided that ten rounds of magic were enough for the day.

[Moxlotus]

So we've got this nice big thread here, but I can't seem to find the name of the winner. CTRL F didn't even help me.

Who the hell won?

I don't want to know if two people split, I want to know who's name goes next to "First Place."

Owen and I split without determining a winner, with the gentlemanly agreement that when someone asked us if we won, we should say yes. I'd like to think we're co-champions. It would have been a good final bout but with less than an hour to conduct the game before the venue kicked us out, as well as myriad other reasons, we decided that ten rounds of magic were enough for the day.

Boo!  I was waiting to hear about an epic Steak and Shake finals!  Of course, the downside would be you are eating at Steak and Shake  

Semi on topic: Wasn't there like an Applebees finals in some east coast tournament in 04?

[Xman]

Congrates again Owen & Doug.  The tournament was fun as hell.

And no, Don't Axe Gush/Scroll/Brainstorm  Axe another important card, like Ali from Cairo.  Or even better, Flying Men!  That is so broken.

But it was a blast, and to be fair to the entire field, it was very gro heavy.  Anyone know the actual Meta breakdown?

[Yare]

I'm not sure why you guys are opposed to an off site final so much.  I know I would like to be able to say "yeah, I won so many matches they kicked me out of the building."

I don't want to continue an extensive discussion here, but I must say that the Top 8 results are disturbing with respect to the metagame.  I mean that as no disrespect to the winners though (which I think is obvious); players should play whatever the best available strategy is, regardless of how "fair" or "desirable" the outcome of such will be.

Congratulations to the winners.

[MarkPharaoh]

So we've got this nice big thread here, but I can't seem to find the name of the winner. CTRL F didn't even help me.

Who the hell won?

I don't want to know if two people split, I want to know who's name goes next to "First Place."

Owen and I split without determining a winner, with the gentlemanly agreement that when someone asked us if we won, we should say yes. I'd like to think we're co-champions. It would have been a good final bout but with less than an hour to conduct the game before the venue kicked us out, as well as myriad other reasons, we decided that ten rounds of magic were enough for the day.

Boo!  I was waiting to hear about an epic Steak and Shake finals!  Of course, the downside would be you are eating at Steak and Shake  

Semi on topic: Wasn't there like an Applebees finals in some east coast tournament in 04?

Yep

[matt_v]

So we've got this nice big thread here, but I can't seem to find the name of the winner. CTRL F didn't even help me.

Who the hell won?

I don't want to know if two people split, I want to know who's name goes next to "First Place."

Owen and I split without determining a winner, with the gentlemanly agreement that when someone asked us if we won, we should say yes. I'd like to think we're co-champions. It would have been a good final bout but with less than an hour to conduct the game before the venue kicked us out, as well as myriad other reasons, we decided that ten rounds of magic were enough for the day.

Boo!  I was waiting to hear about an epic Steak and Shake finals!  Of course, the downside would be you are eating at Steak and Shake  

Semi on topic: Wasn't there like an Applebees finals in some east coast tournament in 04?

Only because the TO started the tournament at 2:00 PM. That's the only tournament I have head judged that has had to have the finals in a place other than the venue.

-Matt

[TimDeluxeIt]

Where were the Flash decks?  Is it just that not too many good players are running it?  Hard to say.  Tune in next time to see how that all resolves.

I think I was the highest placing Flash coming in 11th, idk if there were any other in the top 32 but maybe....

[Cthulhu1975]

Will more decklists than the Top 8 be posted? I would like to see that RG list on 10th place, and a few others as well.

/Dan

[Liek]

Will more decklists than the Top 8 be posted? I would like to see that RG list on 10th place, and a few others as well.

/Dan

I have a good source of information indicating that they will not be.

[chief]

Will more decklists than the Top 8 be posted? I would like to see that RG list on 10th place, and a few others as well.

/Dan

I piloted the R/G deck. Here's the list.

4x kird ape
3x skyshroud elite
4x tin street hooligan
4x tarmogoyf
4x mogg fanatic
3x river boa

The Burn

4x sudden shock
4x seal of fire

Other Shit

3x root maze
3x null rod
4x leyline of the void

Mana

1x lotus
1x ruby
1x emerald
1x petal
4x taiga
3x stomping ground
3x wooded foothills
1x mountain
1x forest
3x wasteland
1x strip mine

Sideboard

3x stingscourger
3x slice and dice
3x pyrostatic pillar
3x pyroclasm
3x shattering spree

I also took 1st at the RIW feelin' blue tournament several weeks earlier with a very similar list.