Uba Stax: The time is now

[meadbert]

If could play with a 58 card Uba Stax deck with only 2 Crucibles, but always start with a hand of 8 rather than 7 I would do it in a heartbeat.

[madmanmike25]

First off, thank you Yespuhyren for sharing your list........but I'm going to have to ask you to  add some comments about the changes you have made or what matchups this is more favorable against.  Just posting a decklist isn't enough and I wouldn't want a mod to give you a warning and hinder your additions to this thread.


Secondly, as promised I have tested Serum Powders and will now share my results.

The way I tested was I goldfished hands and assumed I would be on the play every time.  This is so I could see how Serum Powder would be at its best.  The list I played was identical to the list in my original posting with these changes in the maindeck:

-4 Tanglewire
-2 Thorn of Amethyst

+4 Serum Powder
+2 Karn

So as you can see, Tangles and Serums are competing for the same slot.  I also noted that Meadbert does not have Mana Crypt in his list which I feel is a complete mistake.  Any land + Crypt=3 mana, the same that Shop can produce. 

I played 35 games the last 20 of which I documented.  During the first 15 games I was underwhelmed by Serum Powder, but kept going.  For the record:  I am not biased against Serum Powder, in fact I even started the 1-land Belcher thread that had 4 copies of Powder, so I have had my fair share of experience with the card.

RESULTS:

a.)Serum Powder was better than Tanglewire    5
b.)Tanglewire was better than Serum Powder   12
c.)Neither card gave an advantage                     3

I used Serum Powder to get a total of FIVE keepable hands.  Meadbert is right in that using Powder increases the chance of seeing a Workshop.

TWELVE times I had keepable hands without using Serum Powder and in some cases Serum was even in my hand.  Tanglewire is better than casting a bad Darksteel Ingot.  In games where I didn't see Serum Powder in my opening 7, Tanglewire would have been the better topdeck and hence the better card in that situation.

When neither card would have given an advantage, this means I had hands that were risky, but keepable and the next 7 I would have gotten from using Powder weren't any better(but still keepable).  I did not want to remove such cards as Stripmine and Trinisphere from the game with Serum Powder.  Again, these hands were not great but keepable and neither card would have made much of a difference on that decision.

CONCLUSION:
My build of UbaStax didn't have to mull as much as some of the other decks I have played, and when it did it wasn't detrimental to go down to 6.  I never mulled myself to death.  As Meadbert said, hands with Workshop are so much better than hands without it.......but it was not always necessary and I kept plenty of hands without Workshop. 

Here is why Serum Powder will only be good in decks like Ichorid:

Ichorid requires one thing - Bazaar.  It doesn't need Bazaar + anything, it just needs bazaar.

I agree with this except I would change "will only be good" to "is optimal".  Serum Powder didn't really hinder the deck.  Also, I should mention that there were 3 hands where if Karn had been Thorn of Amethyst, it would have been much better.  I suggest that you try Guerilla Shaman in this slot, Meadbert.  Karn is nice and all but Shaman does the same effect, but comes in play for one red mana.  I was never able to cast a first turn Karn in any of my games, and even if I did, he wouldn't have been better than Thorn or even Shaman.  Animating artifacts is nice, but if I wanted more aggro I would play with 4 copies of Factory and more creatures.....but then I wouldn't be playing a very good Stax deck.

VERDICT:
I would rather have Tanglewires than Serum Powders in my maindeck.  Sometimes using Serum Powder was awesome, but is it not necessary in the deck.  That is to say, its utility did not outweigh the time it was sub-optimal for me.  I would like to discuss the possiblity of using Serum as a SB slot, most likely I will start with 3. 


*********************
I really don't want this thread to turn into a huge debate about whether or not Serum Powder belongs in the maindeck.  My results are not the be-all-end-all in regards to Serum Powder, but I did try it out.  Everyone is welcome and encouraged to post their reports and progress with Stax(with or without Powders) in this thread.  If anyone still feels that Serum Powder is absolutely necessary in Stax, then maybe that discussion deserves its own thread.  I would be more than happy to discuss using Powder in the SB however.


Mike

[meadbert]

Thank you for posting your results Mike.  12-5 is significant and it sounds like Tangle Wire was much better for you.  The fact that you were on the play each game made this even more true since Tangle Wire is better when on the draw and Serum Powder is better on the play.

Karn is definitely prefered to Gorilla Shaman.  Because I generally muligan to a Workshop and because Powders give me four extra Colorless mana sources I generally find Karn is actually easier to cast than Gorilla Shaman.  There is also the Chalice@1 issue.

There are several neat tricks you can play with Karn that many players are not aware of.  Because I mostly play Ichorid I hate to mention them, but they are relevant to the Karn versus Gorilla Shaman debate.  First of all, the most obvious uses of Karn are in spedding up your clock and the fact that you can Weld him out to RFG any Bridge from Below's in your opponent's graveyard.  A second use is destroying Chalice@0.  You must be careful when doing this.
Two lesser known effects are that if you destroy Chalice of the Void and your opponent has a Bridge from Below in their graveyard then they actually get a creature token.  This is because Chalice of the Void is a creature when it leaves play.

This same effect can be used to your advantage.  For instance you can eat your own Mox at any time to RFG all of your opponents Bridges from the Game.  You can also animate any artifact before sacrificing it to smokestack to RFG all of your opponent's bridges.  Finally you can do silly stuff like animating Powder Keg and then activating it.  This will simultaneously destroy all Bridge tokens and RFG all bridge from belows from the game.  If Ichorid is left with just Narcomoebas and Ichorids and if you have a Resistor or Trinsphere out then they will have trouble applying a quick clock and you can win the race.

Gorilla Shaman lacks these advantage, but you can always block a Bridge Token to remove Bridges from the game.  The problem is you are still left with the bridge token to deal with.

I may have made the wrong decision with Mana Crypt.  Perhaps my random Factory should be a Mana Crypt.  I dropped it back when I was only running one Karn and I frequently saw Leylines post board.  Once Leyline hit the only way to remove Crypt was to sack it to Smokestack.  I lost access to Welder and also Bazaaring was less appealing so I was left with a slow clock of my own and Mana Crypt eating away at my life.  I lost many games to my own Mana Crypt.

Now that I run 2 Karn main and a lot more aggro post board it may be time to add Mana Crypt back to the main deck.

[Outlaw]

Just wondering why everyone believes that you need to be mono  to be Uba stax?  I have been working on a 5cuba stax that has a nutty draw engine with uba mask and bazaar, broken 5c cards and has welder bazaar ontop of everything.  I think 5c is the way to go because you still have broken cards if your other plan fails or it doesntcome together.

[Setnakt]

The short of it is if you're running Spheres a 5c manabase will fall apart on you, and you lose the removal qualities of Barb Ring, which makes you want to run things like Powder Keg that I'm not really a fan of at this point. On the other hand you're also cutting consistent pieces for random brokenness; DT is pretty lame if you can't cast Tinker in the same turn. I think I'd rather have another Sphere there or something so I'm sure they don't slip out of the lock next turn. And adding anything broken to Tinker for will stress the curve; you might randomly draw it when you can't cast it. Crop Rotation and Fastbond are cool but that's two card slots vs a stable manabase. Ultimately you have to ask what you're cutting, and if it's worth losing not just utility of those slots but also the solidity of the mono red base.


Here's my stance on Karn. Right now, decks are running very low amounts of power, which means quickly wrecking their Moxen is a lower priority; however, being able to do so is somewhat important. When Chalice at 1 is such a common play, when you're only running 2 Mox Monkeys understand that it'll seem like at least half the time you draw one, it'll be after you've locked yourself out of casting it. Karn on the other hand allows you to switch roles, and turns a soft lock into a 1 turn clock. At worst he also is a huge body, and can stop the offense of a Q Dryad as well as the other guy's Tinkered out Sundering Titan. I'm honestly considering adding the third one myself.

[meadbert]

Karn's biggest advantage is the clock he provides.  Eating moxen is at an all time low in importance.  If Flash drops mox, Land to Scroll up Flash on turn 1, then all they need to do is hit their land drop on turn 2.
Ichorid does not run Moxen.  GAT runs some moxen, but not a full set.  The reason Karn is good is that he finishes a game so quickly.  A turn 3 Karn can result in a turn 5 win and that is very scary for opponents.  Also chump blocking with extra lock pieces can make a big difference and a fairly creature heavy metagame.  Ichorid and Flash may be combo decks, but they both use the attack phase.

[Bill Copes]

The short of it is if you're running Spheres a 5c manabase will fall apart on you, and you lose the removal qualities of Barb Ring, which makes you want to run things like Powder Keg that I'm not really a fan of at this point. On the other hand you're also cutting consistent pieces for random brokenness; DT is pretty lame if you can't cast Tinker in the same turn. I think I'd rather have another Sphere there or something so I'm sure they don't slip out of the lock next turn. And adding anything broken to Tinker for will stress the curve; you might randomly draw it when you can't cast it. Crop Rotation and Fastbond are cool but that's two card slots vs a stable manabase. Ultimately you have to ask what you're cutting, and if it's worth losing not just utility of those slots but also the solidity of the mono red base.

[Before reading the comments below, please know that I fully understand that mono-colored stax and 5 color stax are completely separate beasts that share similar routes to victory, however, a hybrid between the two is absolutely possible and should be explored -- but probably in a separate thread]

If normal 5c stax runs spheres and is plenty successful, how do you justify saying that the mana base falls apart if you have a few uba components? (I'm thinking 2-3 bazaar, 2-3 uba mask would be the max in a 5color build)

DT and Tinker enable you to actually locate win conditions and bombs, instead of waiting (usually a long time) to ubazaar into them.  If you have the board locked, or nearly locked, waiting a turn to cast the tinker you just DT'd for isn't necessarily horrible.  I'd rather wait 2 turns to get  a trike on the board than wait 8 - 12 turns for a welder and a barbarian ring to finish the job.  Demonic and tinker fetch more than just big, uncastable creatures, mind you.  There are plenty of opportunities to DT for a low cost threat (balance, welder, strip mine) that end up putting a lot of pressure on the opponent.  Tinkering for uba, smokestack, tangle wire, etc can also be strong plays, given the circumstances.

I'm not saying that a 5color uba deck is better than a pure red base, mind you -- it all depends on your play style and personal philosophies on what is required to win.  Some are in the camp of total consistency, while others are willing to give up a little bit to do something busted occasionally.  I think the idea of a 5 color deck can definitely be explored further.

[madmanmike25]

Some great tips for the Ichorid matchup, thanks Meadbert.  So you prefer Powder Keg?  I think its awesome that Keg can get Dryad Arbor too.  I often wonder if EE would be worth testing(not in the Ichorid matchup) since it is possible you can hit 1cc easily with red mana or possibly get 2cc with a little luck.  But Keg seems more consistent.  I wonder if Tabernacle could be a sick card also SB since Ichorid typically SBs with anti-Leyline/artifact cards.

Can I ask you what % chance you think your deck has against Ichorid game 1?  I'm not going to hold you to this, and I don't want anyone to argue about it so feel free to just toss out a number that you feel is appropriate.  I'm just curious as to how bad you would say the matchup is pre-board.  The only way I would feel confidant with my deck vs. Ichorid game 1 is if they Mull to 3(or less), don't put any dredgers in the GY, and I have Wasteland in my hand.  I guess I'm trying to establish how much of an impact Karn makes for you when fighting off Ichorid, although honestly I can't see it being that useful.  I will go with your assessment, however.

Just wondering why everyone believes that you need to be mono  to be Uba stax?  I have been working on a 5cuba stax that has a nutty draw engine with uba mask and bazaar, broken 5c cards and has welder bazaar ontop of everything.  I think 5c is the way to go because you still have broken cards if your other plan fails or it doesntcome together.

Setnak did a pretty good job explaining this, but I can add to it.  You don't NEED to be mono-red, but it does have some advantages imo.  Chalice is a great against 5c Stax.  Spheres hurt 5c Stax more than UbaStax(or any mono-red variant).  You typically win the Welder war(4 B-Rings), unless they can cast/find Tinker->Trike.  Many 5c builds have even taken out Smokestack in favor of better bombs, since after all, that is the point of 5c Stax. 

In fact I have my own 5c STAX list(yes, I play with 4 copies of Smokey), but I have found that Uba is just so...damn...consistent.  Not to mention that Chalice @ 1 is a HUGE pain in the ass.  Tinker is the main reason to play 5c Stax for me, and not being able to cast it(or any colored spell) due to color-screw puts a huge damper on your game.

What I have found is that I prefer consistency over bombs in most cases.  My UbaStax builds highest cc is 4 mana; I can cast pretty much anything even with a Sphere in play.  I only run the best creature as well. Being able to Bazzar/Weld something in is just gravy.

My thoughts?  Both are totally viable decks and I predict we will be seeing more of both 5c Stax and Uba/Mono-Red Stax.  Play whichever deck you prefer or have more experience with.  I have plenty of my own comments to add to a 5c Stax thread if someone wants to start one.

P.S. Anyone plan on taking an UbaStax variant to a tournament in the near future?

[shadowofrpgfreak]

Despite my earlier comments on the minor lack of real win conditions, I do have to say I love how consistent UbaStax is, but with 4 Bazaars in addition to Workshops and 6 power, I just don't have the funding to run the thing =/ If not for that, you'd see me popping up with it over the winter in whatever tourney's I can get to here on the west coast, but for now I'll be sticking with my 10-proxie 5c Stax, until I get some combination of 3 bazaars/shops/moxes.

After all, in a meta where Ichorid is an endangered species, this little baby will wreck people ^_^

[meadbert]

Many people make the mistake of assuming that the Manaless Ichorid/Uba Mask matchup has something to do with magic.  In reality, this matchup plays out so differently from almost all other matchups that sort of have to unlearn or forget much of what you have learned.

I would say that Uba Stax can win about 20% of games pre board.  You have the 6% of the time that Ichorid mulls to 1 card.  You will win most of those, but not all.  After that you next best bet is to open up with turn 1 Uba Mask.  If your opponent does not have a dredger in hand when Uba Mask hits then they will never be able to dredge or discard anything other than what they have in their hand.  Colby Evenpence beat me with turn 1 Uba at SCG Roanoke last November.  With Serum Powder in the main mulliganing into turn 1 Uba Mask is not that hard.  Without the Powders your chances drop significantly.  Still, if you bring in Powders from the board you can still have a very good post board matchup.

The final way to beat Ichorid is to have an early Karn and Wasteland.  With some luck wasteland can slow Ichorid down to a 4-5 turn clock which Karn can occationally race.  Also you can play various Karn games mentioned earlier to slow Ichorid down further.

Between Ichorid mulling to 1, randomly winning with Turn 1 Uba and quick Karn beats I estimate that Uba Stax can win about 20% of game ones.

Post board Uba Stax tears up my Ichorid list because all 10 Leyline removal spells I run have cc 1 which means that Leyline + Chalice@1 wrecks me.  I have not tested enough against Team Ogres list to comment on that, but as Team Ogre generally runs 6 mana sources rather than the 11 that I run I imagine it is much easier to lock then under Resistor/Thorn and Trinisphere.  Either way I expect Uba Stax to actually do better against Ichorid than other decks do.
Although Serum Powder will take up slots in your sideboard, you are also running more Thorns main deck so you probably have space for the Powders.  9 Resistors, 5 Wastes, 4 Leyline and 4 Powders are going to be really annoying for 6 mana source Ichorid to deal with.

[Outlaw]

I believe you guys are very mistaken on the bomb card in 5c stax.  Tinker is a more defensive and respondent card to what your opponent plays and typically acts like your running multple copies of cards (more crucible agaisnt stax, and so on).  Balance is without a doubt the best card in the deck and it allows you to take a semi lock position and make it tougher or a losing battle into a win in the war.  With people saying you need to run powder keg to combat welders I believe is another fallacy.  Powder keg is a massive board sweeping card, completely wiping your opponent of moxes or of little men (welder included but not solely subject to).  Keg also helps make the stax mirror more symmetrical (blow up their crucible, try doing that wit a mox monkey). 

The argument saying running Spheres in 5c stax hurts the deck is completely and utterly false.  I've been running them for awhile now and the deck is built to make the game non-symmetrical.  You may have to wait another turn but that is fine when the card your casting ends the game then.  The better 5c lists run Coalition relics which actually make the spheres on your board irrelevent.


Chalice 1 @ 5c stax?  Okay so it stops, Ancestral, Vamp and Crop rotation.  Dump them to bazaar if its an issue.  I think you could tailor a 5c uba stax build to be incredible, it just takes the right person and card combination.

[Setnakt]

If it's so important to you to be able to topdeck the 1 Tinker to get out a Trike, why not run some Trikes?

If with 5cStax your answer to Chalice locking out your bombs is to Bazaar them away, why not run more Bazaars, and then just play Uba?

My point about the manabase is mostly in regards to the mirror. Sure, if no one's putting pressure on your manabase, you can probably chug along with Gemstone Mines under 2Spheres all day long, but we're talking about theoretical optimization. It just seems to me that with 5c you end up cutting the best cards in the deck for cards that end up...tutoring up copies of the cards you cut back on.

At this point I, personally, would not run a Workshop deck that ran less than 4 Bazaars. 5c Uba is an option, but understand how important Barb Rings can be. By switching away from Mono R Uba you're cutting four removal effects right off the bat. And then, what are you cutting? Are you cutting Smokestacks? Then you end up short on removal effects, and you end up having to compensate, when you could just go back to Smokestacks and Rings in the first place. If you're not cutting Smokes then what exactly are you cutting?

[Bill Copes]

If it's so important to you to be able to topdeck the 1 Tinker to get out a Trike, why not run some Trikes?

Tinker is a more defensive and respondent card to what your opponent plays and typically acts like your running multple copies of cards (more crucible agaisnt stax, and so on).

My stax list runs 2 trikes main right now.  Tinker is nice that I have the option of it acting as a third trike, or a crucible, a smokestack, a trinisphere, a memory jar, a titan, etc.  Tinker is the Wild Draw 4 in Uno -- it is what I want it to be when you need it, and it wrecks the opponent greatly when it resolves.  It's not important to topdeck it at any point, because it's not the sole win condition of the deck -- it's completely capable of functioning and winning without resolving tinker.

By switching away from Mono R Uba you're cutting four removal effects right off the bat.

from my list:

Maindeck
1 Barbarian Ring
1 Balance
2 Triskelion
2 Smokestack
2 Powder Keg

Sideboard
3 Swords To Plowshares
1 Duplicant

The removal isn't cut off necessarily, it's just greatly diversified.  The advantage of this is that one pithing needle doesn't cut off all of my creature removal in one fell swoop (I know anybody would name welder with needle first, but this is just an example of vulnerability). 

After this weekend, I'll probably start a separate 5 color thread so people can bounce around ideas on where traditional 5color stax should go (5 color uba versions included) instead of chiming in here -- the philosophies are too different to be in the same thread.  We're clogging up your discussion.

[madmanmike25]

I believe you guys are very mistaken on the bomb card in 5c stax.  Tinker is a more defensive and respondent card to what your opponent plays and typically acts like your running multple copies of cards (more crucible agaisnt stax, and so on).

I don't know what you Tinker for, but generally I Tinker for an early Trinisphere or even mid-game Trini if I have enough of a lock going.  The second card I generally Tinker for is Titan, which provides land destruction and a 3 turn clock and is devastating with Welder.  You don't always use if as a defensive card(Dupe/Angel), but the fact is that I find it far more versatile than Balance.

In fact, I find Balance as more of "a respondent card to what your opponent plays". 
Have you ever started a  game with: City of Brass, Mox Emerald......Balance??  Balance is an awesome card, but when you have a creature and the opponent has an 8/8(or higher) Dryad.....what then?

EDIT: took out bad comparison.

Balance is without a doubt the best card in the deck and it allows you to take a semi lock position and make it tougher or a losing battle into a win in the war. 

This is your opinion, not a fact.  If I have a soft lock going and Crucible in play I would much rather have a DT(Stripmine) than Balance.   Certainly Balance can act as a Mindtwist for 1W, but you have to WAIT until it is optimal.  Some games, yes, Balance has the most powerful effect to be sure.  Some games Tinker has a better effect.  That's why I said "Tinker is the main reason to play 5c Stax for me".

I'm not really going to debate whose favorite card is better and claim it as fact.  My opinion is not wrong, and neither is yours.  The point is that I like both cards.  I just put Tinker a little higher on the scales than you do.

Besides, do you honestly expect me to believe that in 5c Stax vs. UbaStax that Balance is your game winning card??  Over Tinker??  I'm pretty sure I don't have to explain why this is a fallacy.

With people saying you need to run powder keg to combat welders I believe is another fallacy.  Powder keg is a massive board sweeping card, completely wiping your opponent of moxes or of little men (welder included but not solely subject to).  Keg also helps make the stax mirror more symmetrical (blow up their crucible, try doing that wit a mox monkey). 

True, with enough time, Powder Keg is devastatingly good.  But are you generally able to keep your own Crucible off the board if they are Wastelanding you?

The argument saying running Spheres in 5c stax hurts the deck is completely and utterly false.  I've been running them for awhile now and the deck is built to make the game non-symmetrical.  You may have to wait another turn but that is fine when the card your casting ends the game then.  The better 5c lists run Coalition relics which actually make the spheres on your board irrelevent.

Reread what I said:

Spheres hurt 5c Stax MORE THAN UbaStax(or any mono-red variant).

This is a fact because mono-red decks run more artifacts to power out with Workshop than 5c lists.  With 2 Spheres on the board, it can be very difficult to cast Tinker.  If you have NEVER had a problem casting a colored spell with Sphere out, then I do not think you have played 5c Stax very much.  I never claimed(nor do I) that Spheres will pwn 5c Stax.  I will still claim that they are more detrimental to 5c Stax than to UbaStax, meaning that I feel Spheres are slightly better in UbaStax since the drawback is less severe.

Chalice 1 @ 5c stax?  Okay so it stops, Ancestral, Vamp and Crop rotation.  Dump them to bazaar if its an issue. 

Not to mention Goblin Welders, Sol Ring, and the occasional Fastbond and Guerilla Shamans.  Thats a total of 10-12 cards.  I have no problem with an opponent filtering away good cards with Bazaar, AR in the GY makes me happy.  I have no problem in my deck with setting Chalice @ 1, even if I have Welder in my hand.  Chalice @ 2 stops the remaining colored spells with the exception of Tinker.  The deck runs 4 copies of Chalice, which in my opinion is an excellent card.

EDIT:  Not to beat a dead horse, but Chalice @ 0 on the play is also bad for the colored spells in 5c Stax, especially in combination with Spheres. 

I think you are interpreting my comments as "5c Stax is bad."  Do not think this.  I am merely listing reasons why I usually prefer UbaStax.  I think BOTH are good decks and I encourage you to start a 5c Stax thread, you seem to have taken a shine to it.

Again, my personal reasons for choosing UbaStax are:

What are the benefits of playing this over 4/5c Stax?

1.  FOUR Goblin Welders.  He is still the best 1cc creature ever printed.  And this deck is always happy to see him, even in multiples.  Combined with 4 Bazaars, a turn one Welder IS a threat.  2 Welders and Uba/Smokestack in play is a beautiful thing.
2.  Four B-Rings to guarantee you win the welder war, which is inevitable.
3.  Chalice.  You actually get the best usage out of Chalice over any other deck.  Chalice @ 1 barely hurts you at all.  Chalice is a hard-lock card.
4.  Spheres hurt them more than you.  You have more cards that can be cranked out with Workshop than they do(read: more artifacts)
5.  Consistency over bombs.  When playing 5c builds, I noticed that unless you tutor for Stripmine, it is difficult to tutor AND cast a bomb.  i.e. It is rare you can DT and Tinker the same turn.
6.  Four copies of Tanglewire are great against a deck that casts the majority of its cards at sorcery speed.  Awesome with Welder recursion.
7.  MORE PERMANENTS.  You have 60.
8.  Wasteland makes it difficult to cast their colored spells.
9.  Ubazaar draw engine helps you come back if you get behind. You run 4 Bazaars, remember.

I think you could tailor a 5c uba stax build to be incredible, it just takes the right person and card combination.

And I would agree with you 100%.  I hope it works out for you, I had fun with my 5c Stax build.

After this weekend, I'll probably start a separate 5 color thread so people can bounce around ideas on where traditional 5color stax should go (5 color uba versions included) instead of chiming in here -- the philosophies are too different to be in the same thread.  We're clogging up your discussion.

Thanks for that.  I look forward to your thread.

[Outlaw]

This is in regards to Madmanmike's last post (didnt want to quote and edit out everything and what not).  I still do not understand why uba stax is black or white with no grey area in between?  You said between 5c stax and Ubastax I prefer Ubastax.  Why does it seem like your saying a 5 color uba stax build is wrong?  The adjustments are very simple in 5c stax (-5 or 6 of something, +X +Y where X is Uba masks and Y is more Bazaars).  Having a toolbox of broken cards actually allows you to do something when your opponent drops the nuts early.  It is very hard for any stax build to take control of gamestate after its opponent drops multiple moxen and plays some spells. 

Mono-R uba stax suffers from its opponent going broken and loses its own brokeness to running a single color.

5c Stax (or 5cuba stax) still suffers from its opponent going broken but can resolve the game state by using its own sheer brokeness. 

I dont understand your arguement as much on barbarian rings, threshold is very hard to get to when your resolve a turn 1 or 2 Uba mask. 

I dont understand how someone said you could just run another trike instead of tinker, it doesnt work like that.  Try getting a Sundering Titan easily into play, or a turn 1 trinisphere like that.  I made a mistake on how I said Tinker was a defensive card, I meant to say its a utility card.  Tinker finds answers or creates the need for an answer.  Tinkering for crucible is my first play agaisnt stax, 2nd to tinkering for trike to remove welder superiority. 

You say chalice for 1 shuts off a bunch of cards in 5c stax.... Well it shuts off just as many (sans for a small number, in most cases 2) in Mono-R Uba stax.  Still hits all your welders, mox monkey, sol ring, mana vault.  It just doesnt hit vamp or recall (most common 2 cards found in all 5c stax builds).  I would surely give up the chance for a chalice 1 countering some stuff for the chance to go absolutely broken on someones face.

It is true that Mono-R decks have a slightly higher number of artifacts to power out with workshop, but what happens when you dont see a workshop in your opening grip?  A 5c deck has the ability to tutor for a workshop or let its cheap spells that either find or get big spells into play do the work for them.

[madmanmike25]

Outlaw,

We are saying the same things over and over and over again..............

5c Stax has more bombs while UbaStax(mono-red) is more consistent.  I don't think anyone is arguing against that.  Both have pros and cons, and they should be obvious to anyone that has played either of the decks.

There is really no point in playing with all non-basics to merely splash 1-2 other colored cards.  You either play all the bombs/tutors.....or you play mono-red.  5c Stax and UbaStax are not the same deck.

I do not think that 5c Stax is "wrong".  Can we please get past that?  My personal preferance towards UbaStax is not meant to deter you from playing 5c Stax with Uba Mask.   There is just a basic fact that playing with only one color will pretty much always be more consistent, at the cost of being able to get yourself out of a hole with a bomb or go 'broken'.

Threshold is not hard to get, even with Uba out.  You can always cast what you want into a Chalice if you have to.  Getting Threshold is not the focus of the deck, just an added bonus. 8 win conditions mean more lock cards can be crammed in the deck.

I am glad that you have reevaluated Tinker for the truly awesome card that it is.  It's good in so many ways either offense or defense.  It still wins my vote for most important card in 5c builds.

When you say Chalice @ 1 "shuts off just as many (sans for a small number, in most cases 2) in Mono-R Uba stax."  it leads me to think you haven't seen my list at all because this is just flat out incorrect.  4 Goblin Welders.  1 Sol Ring.  That is all.  I do not run Guerilla Shaman.  I do not run Mana Vault.  Again, compare that to the 10-12 cards in many 5c Stax builds.  I have already implied(multiple times) that setting Chalice @ 1 is more important (and less detrimental) for UbaStax than casting a Goblin Welder.

In fact, on the play I have been testing Chalice @ 1 instead of Chalice @ 0 against unknown decks.  Anyone care to comment if they feel this is incorrect/beneficial?  The best part is that the next Chalice can be set either at 0 or 2 without getting countered.

Again, count all the colored spells in your average 5c Stax build and compare that with the whopping FOUR Goblin Welders in mine.  There are a lot more artifacts than a "slightly higher" amount when compared to 5c Stax.

If you read earlier in the post, you will find that I didn't always have to have a Workshop in my hand.  Seriously, please read the whole thread and do not just start from your original post.  We can continue this in pm if you wish, but I would rather we didn't.  I really hope there is a 5c thread come Monday because there is much to say about 5c Stax.

Mike

[Evol daN]

P.S. Anyone plan on taking an UbaStax variant to a tournament in the near future?

I took Uba Stax to a tournament just this last week... I came to some conclusions both before and after the show.

BEFORE:

4 X Barbarian Ring is to much: 3 X meant they came when I needed them, that I got two most times I wanted, but I did not take 5 damage relying on these guys for mana. You need threshhold before it works... which means 1 of 2 things it is mid/late game or you have bazaar to dig for 1 of the 3.

1 X Triskellion: I did not see him often enough he blocks all so many fish and swings for a billion. I am not sure at this point if I want to test with 2 of this guy... it cant really hurt

1 x Duplicant: I saw this guy far to often, but it was nice to know he was there if I needed to find him. I only Duped 1 creature all day and Trike could have done it much better.

1 x Mana Crypt: NO NO I JUST CANT DO IT. i refuse to run this card with no Shaman, Karn, or CLOCK.
ouch I take 3, ouch I TaKe 3, OuCh I TAKe 3, OUCh I TAKE 3, OUCH THATS ENOUGH!! my mana was fine, I only parised a couple times for faster mana, Chalice@1, welder, Sphere... these are fine non shop mana Turn 1s

There were two other changes that I am unwulling to divulge at this time.

But I MUST agree with both MMMike and Harlequin. Serum Powder is optimal when trying to find a single card combo. Yet I would run it if Trinisphere were unrestricted (hope this never happens). But there again... a one card combo... any three mana plus Trinisphere... in a deck with land desruction!  KEEP IT ALL DAY LONG, MULL FOR IT ALL DAY LONG

During my rounds I found myself often daydreaming about hitting Tangle Wire, that card takes Sphere from being good to being a real backbreaker, shutting off FOW many times.


POST TOURNAMENT:

I am SO glad I did not run Mana Crypt, i saw the card i ran in its place so often, and early, it would have killed my 4sure.

Duplicant: CUT maybe to the board.

3 X Barbarian Ring: is good.

4 X Tangle Wire: is good in all matches minus Flash... in that case I would rather see ONLY A RESISTOR

Also based on my results I question the need for the Thorns in the main deck. The consistency of the deck is very strong with the right 2 cards in their slots and they really only shine in 2 matches, Flash and Gush Long. But i still thank you for the testing i did with this card in the main and i agree with your findings that 7 x Resistors is the right number in these 2 matches.

LEYLINE: Note that I did not play Leyline of any sort on my board, thereby my negative results agains Flash become clear, I will not make that mistake again.

Also note that means i did not board any enchantments agains Ichorid... but FYI.... I   2-0ed   the match.

Of my day I remember

2 - 0 against Ichorid

2 - 0 against RBW Hate thingy (which opened with strip lock on the play in game 1) he he he

3 - 2 against flash decks

the rest of my rounds were unplayed draws.
if you have any questions about interactions in these matches feel free.

[Evol daN]

  ooops are sure you only mean more consistent...

We are saying the same things over and over and over again..............

5c Stax has more bombs while UbaStax(mono-red) is more consistent.  I don't think anyone is arguing against that.  Both have pros and cons, and they should be obvious to anyone that has played either of the decks.

Consistent.... agreed... very

[LotusHead]

Balance is without a doubt the best card in the deck and it allows you to take a semi lock position and make it tougher or a losing battle into a win in the war. 

This is your opinion, not a fact.  If I have a soft lock going and Crucible in play I would much rather have a DT(Stripmine) than Balance.   Certainly Balance can act as a Mindtwist for 1W, but you have to WAIT until it is optimal.  Some games, yes, Balance has the most powerful effect to be sure.  Some games Tinker has a better effect.  That's why I said "Tinker is the main reason to play 5c Stax for me".

If Mono-R UbaStax wants a "Tinker", has anyone considered Trash For Treasure?  It's an unrestricted 2R sorcery that Tinker's for an artifact in your graveyard.  Sure it costs 3, but with Bazaar, you can consider tossing goodies into the graveyard only to get it back with Trash for Treasure.  If you decide to up the count to 4 TFT's, then you have some options for goodness.  Combine that with good ol' Welders, and you now have 8 ways to recur artifacts.

That being said, I just couldn't do it. (add TFT to any list) Mostly because I can't bring myself to play Mono-Red.  Just a thought.

[madmanmike25]

Sounds like you did fairly well with UbaStax Evol Dan, congrats.

Since I want to minimize the possibility of not being able to cast a Welder, I will stick with my 8 red producing lands.  You could try going 5 mountains, 3 B-Rings if you wanted.  The SB typically has red cards as well, so keep this in mind when reducing your red-land count.

I am glad Tanglewires have been working out for you(except for Flash).  Too many people look at Tanglewire in a vacuum, instead of as a part of a deck with many synergies.

I would be a liar if I claimed that I have never died to Mana Crypt.  That being said, there is no way I would take it out of my deck.  Period.  I have 4 Smokeys and 4 Welders to handle it if need be.  It is a risky card, but it is essentially 2 moxes in one and well worth the risk for me.  If you hate the card that much, you could swap in Mana Vault perhaps.  I do not think taking out Mana Crypt would be that detrimental, but it would surely weaken your turn 1 plays.

If you play with Trikes, B-Rings, AND Tangles, Fish probably scoops to you.  I still think I like Dupe just a tad better though, but it depends on what decks you play against.

That being said, I just couldn't do it. (add TFT to any list) Mostly because I can't bring myself to play Mono-Red.  Just a thought.

Heh heh, yeah the bombs/tutors are nice.  I have experimented with TFT, and it is a fun card especially with Bazaars.  In mono-red it's not that great since you cant run Intuition, which makes TFT really good.  It's kinda like a 3cc one-shot Goblin Welder, that is HORRIBLE if it gets countered.  If someone else wants to experiment with the card, you really have to up the cc of your cards and play with Titans, Portals, etc to make it worthwhile.  After all, casting TFT to get a Tangle/Sphere back into play is not the way to go.  The other problem is:  What card would I take out?  Yet ANOTHER problem is that it makes you more reliant on the GY.  This deck can utilize the GY quite well, but it's not totally dependant on it.

It may have some use with Gamble, so maybe its worth looking into a bit more...In any case, I wouldn't play it in a lockdown deck but maybe in a  controllish/aggro build.  If you TFT a Su-Chi that might be fun too.  Dammit, now I have to try that out.  Thanks a lot 

[vroman]

I did not want to remove such cards as Stripmine and Trinisphere from the game with Serum Powder.  Again, these hands were not great but keepable and neither card would have made much of a difference on that decision.

you are not using serum powder correctly. Ubastax using serum powder is different than ichorid, but certainly no worse. bc there are seriously no 6 cards you care about so much that youd be unwilling to rfg them rather than get a free muligan. unlike ichorid which would be hesitant to rfg a rare hand of say [3 bridge, 3 ickys/narcs, powder]. even if your hand is:
[4xwelder, trisphere, strip, powder] or
[4xcrucibe, trisphere, strip, powder] etc
use powder! who cares about losing your objectively best cards in your deck, so long as you get a 7 card hand that is better at actually winning the game. you can win so many different ways, that there is no one set of cards that you fear losing. no matter what the other 6 cards are, if the hand does not have 3 turn 1 mana, or welder+red+bazaar, then use powder w confidence. if you have powder in your opening hand, the only reason you should not use it, is if the other 6 cards give you a very strong chance of winning the game on their own. the fear of rfging them should never be a deciding factor in whether to use powder.

thus, bc you are under-using serum powder, I find your conclusion suspect.

[beemer]

as most stl players do, i agree w/vroman. having strip or 3sphere rfg for a new 7 cards is fine in my book.

[Evenpence]

From what I've heard, this deck looks good again...

[madmanmike25]

I did not want to remove such cards as Stripmine and Trinisphere from the game with Serum Powder.  Again, these hands were not great but keepable and neither card would have made much of a difference on that decision.

you are not using serum powder correctly.

Vroman, beemer,

This is perhaps a semantic missunderstanding.  When I say I didn't WANT to RFG certain cards......it doesn't mean that I did NOT do it in previous hands with Serum Powder.  It just meant that I didn't like it when I had to RFG those cards, and who would??  It would be absurd to keep a crappy hand or Mull to 6 just because you are afraid of RFG'ing Strip or Trini.  That was never the case, and I  never underused Serum Powder.  I would never base my mull decisions on RFG'ing two restricted cards.  I removed my fair share of cards from the game to get better hands when testing Powder.  Again, sometimes Serum Powder was bad-ass and other times it was extremely weak.  I stand by my statement that I find Tanglewire to be a better card choice than Serum Powder in the maindeck, especially when on the draw.  I however will not piss on anyones parade if they so choose to run Serum Powder maindeck.  For the record, my SB currently has 3 Serums in it.  I hope this clears any confusion, feel free to run what card you find more useful.

btw How do you guys feel about UbaStax in the current meta?

Mike

[Outlaw]

Friend of mine made top 8 at Chester Li's Jet Tourney (hes a basic user and i'll get a list up as soon as I can).  He was playing 5c Uba stax.  Guess he said it was money all day. 

[Outlaw]

I just won a Sapphire today with what i like to call 5cuba stax (SCUBA STAX!!!)  Deck ran like a charm.
   
4  Mishra's Workshop
    3  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    1  Tolarian Academy
    4  Bazaar of Baghdad
    1  Barbarian Ring
    4  City of Brass
    2  Gemstone Mine
    4  Goblin Welder
    1  Sundering Titan
    1  Triskelion
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Trinisphere
    1  Tinker
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Mox Emerald
    3  Crucible of Worlds
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Sol Ring
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mana Crypt
    3  Smokestack
    1  Memory Jar
    3  Uba Mask
    4  Sphere of Resistance
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Balance
    2  Powder Keg
    1  Ancient Grudge
    2  Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Karn
    2 Thorns of Amethyst

[Lordpenguin]

Assuming I am running, say, maybe 1 Sundering Titan only in terms of fat creatures in the maindeck, what's the right number of mountains and Barbarian rings in order that I can finish out consistently? Because I have seen some decks running around with just 1 BRing, and three creature finishers, and some with just 4 Mountain 4 BRing. Is the latter viable?

[Evol daN]

what's the right number of mountains and Barbarian rings in order that I can finish out consistently? Because I have seen some decks running around with just 1 BRing, and three creature finishers, and some with just 4 Mountain 4 BRing. Is the latter viable?

obviously you are going to get different answers to this question depending on who you ask. What I can tell you is that your predication of running Titan, Trike, or whatever as win conditions is irrelevant to the number of rings you play.

I believe that every card in Uba Stax must be a viable threat and must work(be viable to play) towards a conclusion of the game in the first 3 turns, thus allowing subsequent turns to happen. Yet I also recognize the need for game breaking retarded abilities. I assume it is this circumstance that you are justifying the inclusion of Titan, not becouse he hits for 7. I feel that the number of these high CMC cards should be kept as low as possible to keep consistency high.

Likewise I think it is erroneous to look at Ring and ask how many you need in your deck to achieve a win condition Via it. Rather look at the card itself, how it fits into the deck, and how it can be used.

Ring is more than a win condition in this deck, it is a tool. Ring is your instant speed targeting removal that protection cant stop. More exactly it is a tool that is without utility, in general, for the first three turns. If you get a Bazaar and Smokestck rolling early, without the Mask, the Ring becomes active on turn 3, after your second Bazaar activation. This assumes that you play a Shop or red source Turn 1.

That said, by the time Ring becomes active, assuming no Mulligans... on the play, you will have drawn 13 cards that is nearly 1/4 of your deck.

I choose to play 3 Rings, 5 Mountains becouse i want my Stax List to achieve pars when its cards utility turns on, I have greater than a 60% chance of having one Ring at that time. I dont like to be damaged by my own mana sources when it is uncessary.

[meadbert]

Barbarian Ring's most important use is probably removing opposing Welders.  It is also nice if it can hit a Dark Confidant, Meddling Mage or other annoying creature.
I did the math years ago and the difference between 3 and 4 Rings is slight because of what EvolDan said above.  By the time you have threshhold you are likely to draw Barbarian Ring whether or not it is a 3 or 4 of.

[madmanmike25]

Correct, the B-Ring is more utility than win condition.  It has been a long time since I have played a game where I actually had to inflict all 20 dmg to my opponent, they usually scoop before then(as they should).

3/5 B-Ring and Mountain seems fine.  7 'win conditions' shouldn't be an issue.  Funny though, I haven't really had much of a problem with the 1 dmg from B-Ring and sometimes I wish I had seen it sooner.  But 3 copies is such a minor difference in this type of card that it shouldn't affect the deck in a negative way.  I wouldn't want to go down to 2 though.

When considering a card like Sundering Titan, it is easy to only recollect the times it destroyed an opponent and forget the times you couldn't cast it or weld it in.  The latter tends to happen more frequently from my experience.

Anyone planning on taking UbaStax to the SCG tourny?  It's going to be very interesting to see the Stax/Gush ratio.

Mike

p.s. Congrats on the win Outlaw, though I do have a few comments about your list.  p.m. if interested.