Ongoing SCG Chicago Results

[Moxlotus]

For the sake of anyone's interest--to my knowledge the only table that drew into the top8 in round 7 of day 1 was table 1.  Everyone else had to play it out.  4-12 all were X-1 with steve in 13th at X-1-1.  Jamison was paired down and conceded to Owen to get both into the top 8.  I think there was an X-1-1 that got 9th day 1--but I don't remember for sure.  I hate it when it gets so close to an extra round but not quite--makes everyone play it out and usually gets someone who was x-1-1 out.

[Suicideking]

Well i think ICBM completely owned this weekend with 8 top8s a day 1 win.

best part of the weekend

Before Top 8, Soly asked Stephen Menendian how it felt to know that RG beats had been able to draw into top 8, to which Steve responded in a salty fashion, "That’s fine, because it’s not going to win."  Jamison, "Hilarious."

[Smmenen]

i think the fact that RG beatz won is awesome.   i honestly didn't think it would win.   the fact that it did I think is something vintage players should actually be happy about.  it means the format is healthy.  it means that nothing needs to be restricted and that the format is wide open.  it signals so many good things about the format. 

I certainly did not mean disrespect, I just didn't expect his deck to win through a top 8. 

congrats to jamison!

[diopter]

i think the fact that RG beatz won is awesome.   i honestly didn't think it would win.   the fact that it did I think is something vintage players should actually be happy about.  it means the format is healthy.  it means that nothing needs to be restricted and that the format is wide open.  it signals so many good things about the format. 

Not that this wasn't true before RG beats won - Vintage has been healthy for quite some time now. However, this might have the nice side-effect of silencing the infinite and un-ceasing whining that's been happening the last few months years.

[GUnit]

Nope, now it's time to cry about too much diversity, and unpredictable, random metagames.

[yespuhyren]

This meta is definitely the best its been since Trinisphere got restricted.

[chief]

My report is available at www.teamicbm.com

[Drummer79]

hey guys,

I just got done typing these and sending them to Pete

here is my link to the day two lists

mysticgamingevents.com

[Phele]

Thanks for the lists: Wow, so much Long in the Top8! Wasn't it said to have a hard time with so much GAT around. And two of them didn't use all Moxen ... strange. But the biggest surprise is to see Sullivan Solution in the Top8, and that in a field full of many and big beaters. But he metagamed well with the three Threads main. Congrats on the winner as well! It seems, that Thoughtseize has find its way in the meta and is in many cases the preffered choice over Duress.

[TopSecret]

People switching to Long for Day 2 makes a lot of sense.
Considering that there were a lot of creature heavy decks Day 1,
people would be less prepared for straight combo on Day 2 since they'd be anticipating creatures again.

[outpost1]

SCg P9 Chicago T8 decklists - http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=vin&start_date=2007-11-11&end_date=2007-11-11&event_type=P9

Mystic Gaming Chicago T8 decklists - http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=vin&start_date=2007-11-11&end_date=2007-11-11&event_type=MISC

Hope everyone had a great time!

[madmanmike25]

i think the fact that RG beatz won is awesome.   i honestly didn't think it would win.   the fact that it did I think is something vintage players should actually be happy about.  it means the format is healthy.  it means that nothing needs to be restricted and that the format is wide open.  it signals so many good things about the format. 

True that.

Not that this wasn't true before RG beats won - Vintage has been healthy for quite some time now. However, this might have the nice side-effect of silencing the infinite and un-ceasing whining that's been happening the last few months years.

Double true.  I would like to personally thank the R/G list for winning.  The only real MD combo-hate was Magus, very ballsy.  Good job.   Maybe instead of "Restrict Flash/Gush!" we will hear "Restrict Goyf!" or better yet "Restrict Kird Ape!".  What a glorious age we live in where creatures are free to turn sideways.

p.s.  As primarily a Stax player, that R/G beats lists is like an icepick to the groin.  Vials are sooo good against Stax.

[Dante]

p.s.  As primarily a Stax player, that R/G beats lists is like an icepick to the groin.  Vials are sooo good against Stax.

Also good against stax is the "every card in my deck but lightning bolt is a permanent" along with 12 maindeck welder killers, 4 maindeck Tin Street, plus the possibility of Ancient Grudge and Seal of P coming in.  At least there was no Artifact Mutation. 

[ELD]

I've been saying it for a while now - I believe we are in a Golden Age of Vintage.  People don't realize it when they're in a Golden Age.  They just think what's going on is normal.  Years later we will look bad, and appreciate what we had.  Attack phases, creature removal, creature stand offs, these are things that many people never experienced while playing Type 1.  The format is more diverse than it has ever been, with countless decks being viable choices.  There are many factors that contribute to this, but I think there is one factor that is the most important.  Right now, the decks that are the most powerful, are also the hardest to play.  You can trade off difficulty with power, and find the deck that best suites you.  On top of that, most of the archetypes out there reward practice.  If a player picks up Stax for instance, it is comparatively easy to play.  As a Stax player grows in skill, they will find ways to win games that they originally would have lost.  This creates the common sight of a good Stax player beating the average GAT player, with an excellent GAT player beating an average Stax player.  The match ups become very skill dependent, and that creates a format that is very rewarding to play and practice.  With so many viable choices, and play skill being one of the most important factors, we truly are in a Golden Age of Vintage. 

[Smiley408]

Thoughtseize would point to a more aggro infested format right? because it takes Lackeys Goyfs Confidants?

[Dxfiler]

I think it's a stretch to jump and say that this is clearly a diverse format or a 'golden age' of vintage has arrived off one weekend when the past 2-3 months have pointed to the contrary.

This is the first week in a major tournament (over 100 people) I have seen where Gush based decks didn't completely dominate.  'Only' 2 in top 8 day 1 and 1 day 2.

I honestly think that alot of people were just sick of playing Gush based decks and wanted to mix it up with other more diverse but less powerful options.  I think ICBM is a good example of this.  Most of the team went gush based for Indy...this time around pretty much everyone chose non-gush based decks.  People want to mix it up to try and break the monotony that is gush/merchant scroll... that doesn't mean the format is automatically a 'golden age.'

I agree that RG winning is a good thing, but you can't just ignore the past couple months and say the format is clearly the best it's ever been when a rogue deck breaks through. 
In any format, people break through with rogue decks.  It will always happen.  They key to determining the ultimate health of a format is looking at a pool of tournaments and seeing what has been winning and if anything has been format warping.

Gush based decks (with merchant scroll) have by and large dominated the format the past couple months.  People can point to GR beats winning this weekend but it doesn't wipe away the dominance of gush decks from Waterbury (both days), SCG Indy and worlds.  Those are just the tourneys over 100 people.

I'm glad alot of different archtypes placed well this weekend.  That really makes me happy.  That doesn't mean suddenly the format is hunky-dory.  I think all it means is that alot of people are sick of playing Gush decks and wanted to branch out.  I can tell you from ICBM alone about 15 less gush decks showed up than normal because we wanted to try out other things just to break the monotony of playing Gush/Merchant Scroll.

- Dave Feinstein

[Smmenen]

I have a question for everyone who played: What was the effect of having a second day to play?  Did it give you an opportunity to play something fun rather than what you thought was the best deck?   Any thoughts on that?

[Lou]

I have a question for everyone who played: What was the effect of having a second day to play?  Did it give you an opportunity to play something fun rather than what you thought was the best deck?   Any thoughts on that?

I played to win both days. I knew I wanted to play storm combo, as I know it best and I felt it was the best choice for me. While GAT is great, I didn't think it was the best choice for Chicago.

[ELD]

I'm not basing my comments off one tournament.  I feel that we have been in a Golden Age since Future Sight.  With the advent of Ichorid new form, Aven Mindcensor, and Gofy, the power level of previous marginal decks got a huge boost.  The pacts made Flash much stronger, and because of this, Goblins has begun creeping into the format.  Everything has fallen into place to allow for unprecedented diversity. 

I wouldn't expect a Feinstein stamp of approval on any metagame, as I've never heard anything but complaints.  When was the metagame more diverse than it is now Dave?  I've been playing Vintage competitively since Masques, and I cannot think of a time when we were even close to this diverse. 

[Vegeta2711]

2003 down?

I'm also amused by this statement after yet another win by you with GAT. Shocking.

[Almighty]

Personally, I figured that the overwhelming presence of Gush in the past months was due to most people just really enjoying playing with Gush.

[diopter]

Personally, I figured that the overwhelming presence of Gush in the past months was due to most people just really enjoying playing with Gush.

Somehow the Gush detractors never entertain this statement whenever they make claims like "Gush dominates unless people choose to play something different"

For reference:

Most of [ICBM] went gush based for Indy...

Gush based decks (with merchant scroll) have by and large dominated the format the past couple months.

Clearly the two events are not correlated. However:

This is the first week in a major tournament (over 100 people) I have seen where Gush based decks didn't completely dominate.  'Only' 2 in top 8 day 1 and 1 day 2.

I honestly think that alot of people were just sick of playing Gush based decks and wanted to mix it up with other more diverse but less powerful options.

Clearly these two events are correlated.

[LordHomerCat]

I don't get how people complain about gush decks, comboing out with Will in a gush deck is like the most fun you can have playing Vintage.  Tendrils combo is just replaying lotus and a bunch of rituals, Gifts would just bounce all its artifacts and then replay them and cast tendrils, but Gro is actually interesting since you play so many spells.  I have so much fun playing out Yawgmoth's Will in gush decks and really just playing Gro in general, I don't understand these people who complain its not fun to play.

Know what I don't find fun?  Playing underpowered decks in Vintage.  I don't understand the enjoyment in playing Fish for instance: why don't you just play Type 2 if you want to play a bunch of 2/2's for 2?  And note that this comes from someone who plays more standard then vintage: I don't play this format to try and keep everyone else from doing broken things, I play it because its the most fun you can have with peices of cardboard and a lot of that fun comes in cards like Will.  Also, I like the skills involved more than any other format, but Gro is skill-related enough at the top level that its not like Flash-broken which is just dumb, its a lot more interesting to actually have to play more than 3 turns in a game (Gifts much?) and have to fight on pretty much all the resource fronts: creatures, mana, lands in play, cards in hand, graveyards, and the stack.

I love the format right now, there's probably at least a dozen decks with which you can reasonably make top8 if you play well.  That's a lot different than the Gifts-Pitch Long era, where playing anything else was usually a big mistake.

[Dxfiler]

I'm not basing my comments off one tournament. 

I wasn't specifically calling you out, as more than one person has used the  'golden age' phrase... but could you give me actual evidence as to how this is 'the golden' age of vintage? 

It's hard for me to sit here and watch people talk about a golden age in tourneys when the Star City before this, Waterbury and Gencon all pointed to Gush based decks running over everything and everyone.  One big tourney something completely rogue wins and suddenly the format is the healthiest it's ever been.

I wouldn't expect a Feinstein stamp of approval on any metagame, as I've never heard anything but complaints.  When was the metagame more diverse than it is now Dave?  I've been playing Vintage competitively since Masques, and I cannot think of a time when we were even close to this diverse. 

I wouldn't expect you to acknowledge that the format could be warped since you've told me in person you don't believe in restrictions and that vintage should be the showcase for all the powerful magic cards. 

You have to go over a period of time and look at tourneys as a whole to determine if a format is healthy or not.  Gush based decks have more often than not run rampant in large tourneys.  The only 100+ person tourney I've seen where gush/scroll didn't completely dominate was this tournament.  Again, I mainly attribute that to people just getting sick of running gush decks. 
Good players can win with non-gush decks, they're just putting themselves at a disadvantage. 

As for small tourneys, I've been to a couple tourneys where since the gush unrestriction (one of them being your cole hall tourney) where the overwhelming majority of the room was either stax based or gush based.  That's not divserse sir.  :p

This format is not the 'golden age of vintage.'  I just think that is a false statement.  It implies that all these archtypes are thriving and there are multiple tier 1 decks. 

If you want to disagree with me then that's fine... just give me some evidence to support your claim of it being a 'golden age' other than 'I've been playing since Masques.'

- Dave

P.S. At Diopter- the point I was trying to make is that good players can win with non-gush decks but that doesn't mean the format is suddenly healthy.

[OwenTheEnchanter]

I have a question for everyone who played: What was the effect of having a second day to play?  Did it give you an opportunity to play something fun rather than what you thought was the best deck?   Any thoughts on that?

First off ooooohhh HAI HAI to the vintage community here at TMD!

First post here be gentle and plz dont pick apart my grammer when you flame me. But here I am responding to a Smemmen post BIG SURPRISE!

In regards to a second day I was excited, living close to COD meant it was a local tourney for me and having already snagged a peice of power I called the weekend a success and decided to play a joke deck (PlatPact). And for me at least you hit the nail on the head when you say "Did it give you an opportunity to play something fun rather than what you thought was the best deck?"

imo SCG Chicago was a success I got to barn TK and all the meandeckers ALL weekend so I hope they return sometime soon.

As far as the metagame discussion goes Gruul is fine, Shops are loose, Gush is king, but most of all ALL FEAR MONO BLUE!!!! mwuahahahaha

PS Dave Feinstein is a GENIUS

[TimDeluxeIt]

Congrats on the double top8 Owen, but, should we have expected anything less from you?

[ELD]

2003 down

Saga Block had Academy being the far and away most powerful deck.  People played other decks, like Sligh, WW and Sui, but they had no legitimate chance of winning.  A large portion of the field was decks that would be considered casual by todays standards.  As I think back to the cards that were released, and how they impacted Vintage, I remember how there were only a small handful of decks that were actually competitive.  The card pool wasn't diverse enough to allow for the variety we have today.  Go ahead and pick a time period and try and reconstruct viable decks. 

What people play is an independent choice.  There's no controlling it.  How many decks that are viable is a totally different story.   By printing a continuous stream of playable cards, and careful management of the DCI B/R list, Wizards have given us a huge variety of decks to chose from. 

[TK]

In response to what steve asked....

Same as owens response basically. We got to our hotel room and were trying to figure out what to play for day 2. Several people stuck with there deck from the day before with some slight changes, but a lot of us decided to just play something we enjoyed. So i decided to sleve up a ritual based deck becuase i find combo more calenging and fun to play then any other archtype.

Gush is deffinately still king in this format. I saw plenty of gush and empty gifts floating around but just lower numbers of it in the hands of good players.

[diopter]

the point I was trying to make is that good players can win with non-gush decks but that doesn't mean the format is suddenly healthy.

Good players can play with Gush decks but that doesn't mean the format is suddenly unhealthy.

[cheddercaveman]

I completely agree.  This is the thing that is said everytime something like this changes.  You have to look at the format and decide, is a deck powerful or broken?  Gush based decks do NOT allow turn 1 wins.  They are better in the hands of a skilled player.  They have a lot of weaknesses.  The format was dominated before by Long-type decks, no one was complaining that Dark Ritual needed to be restricted.  People simply look at tournament postings and see that "Oh, the top 6 decks were gush, it needs to be re-restricted".  Well that doesnt take into account that its a matter of the better players playing gush type decks, nor the fact that gush is just a fun card to play with so people play it.  Take legacy for example, the top deck IS definitely threshold, no questions asked.  There are things that beat threshold though and have good matchups against the rest of the field.  However, until someone starts calling it the best deck, the best players won't be running it and you'll continue to see it heavily in the top numbers.

Honestly, I think the format is healthy as ever.  You have aggro being viable.  You have R/G aggro of all things winning a very, very large tournament.  Gush decks.  PlatzPact, which I think is awesome as hell.  Workshops being playable again.  I'm sure that after all of this someone is going to come out with another new deck that is amazing.