Meadbert Manaless Ichorid Primer

[mr cheese]

Meadbert: About mulligans with your build

It's obvious game one, mull to Bazaar, no matter what. Game 2 and 3 are different. What do you look fgor in hands for games two and three. I have tried mulling to bazaar and just milling through my deck looking for things I want, but I find that it is basically a coin flip if you win any game using that strategy. Do you keep a hand without Bazaar, hoping to draw into it, or do you mull to Bazaar?

Also, how does your deck handle Magus of the Moon? Obviously, you Unmask/Therapy those ASAP, but if your opponent rips on off the top of the library, what happens? I'm assuming that you just have to hope and win by then, or at least have what you need to win. 

[meadbert]

Right now I always mulligan to Bazaar, but I am not sure that is correct for games 2 and 3.
For game 1 there are very few cases where it is okay to keep a hand without Bazaar.

Case 1.A:  Grave-Troll/Imp, Unmask, black card
Case 1.B:  Grave-Troll/Imp, City, Therapy
Case 2:  (Case 1) +   Leyline/Chalice/Petrified Field

In case 1 you are probably going to lose this game either way.  I forget if I have never won with 2 cards or won just once.  I think I had Bazaar and Leyline of the Void once and won, but I cannot remember specifics.  I know I have never won with just Bazaar.

In case 2 you have a better chance of winning.  You unmask your own Grave-Troll and drop Chalice/Leyline/Field.
Field is good here because you are fairly likely to dredge into Bazaar in which case you are off to the races.

On the play post board is straight forward.  I would say always mulligan to Bazaar on the play.  You definitely want to have a chance to discard 3 cards before your opponent plays Needle.  If your opponent drops Leyline then Bazaar lets you see 3 cards per turn instead of 1.  There is really a huge difference there!

Post board on the draw is the toughest decision.
If your opponent opens with Needle, then it is nice to have kept a hand of 7 with a dredger.  Really this is a bad position to be in either way.  Needle does usually beat you when it comes down before you have Bazaared.
Rather than trying to steal games you should lose either way, I would advice keeping the pressure on your opponent by always mulliganing to Bazaar.  This forces them to mulligan to Needle or Leyline and the odds are in your favor.  I cannot say that this is correct for sure.  It is definitely impacted by how fast your opponent's deck is and what sort of hate they run.  If they run a slow deck with Needles and Wastes but no Leylines then keeping a hand of 7 with a good dredger makes more sense.  If their deck has any kind of clock then you really want Bazaar to win races and find hate.  In general, people lose far more games because they did not mulligan than they lose to games where they mulliganed too much.

[meadbert]

I forgot to address Magus of the Moon in my previous post.

Magus of the Moon is really not that much of a problem.

As you mention you can Unmask or Therapy him.  This is very likely since he is usually a turn 2 or 3 play which means you get 1-3 turns to deal with him.

If you are on the draw and Magus comes down on turn 2 then he is fairly annoying.  The rest of the time he is too little too late and you should steam roll over him.  Basically he is a Pithing Needle on legs that comes out a turn or two later.

[orgo.love]

Why no street wraith? (a humble noob asks)

[Sibib]

Street Wraith versus Petrfied Field:  Street Wraith gives you one extra draw on turn 1 while Petrified Field provides two extra draws on turn 3 and every turn after turn 3.  The relevant question here is how much better is that extra draw on turn 1?  If you are playing Goblins or Flash and you really want that first creature or two in play to block Lackey or block enough Slivers to survive then the draw on turn 1 matters.  Also if you want to combo out on turn 2 then Petrified Field does nothing, while Stree Wraith gives you that extra draw.  Since in the current meta it is far more likely that you will be facing heavy aggro + Wasteland, I find Petrified Field to be the vastly superior card.  Consider the top decks right now.  GAT and Empty Gush rarely win on turn 1 or 2.  I realize there are plenty of Fastbond, I win hands that occur on turns 1 and 2 but this is rare.  They are generally looking to win around turn 4 and possibly push through on turn 3.  In this case Petrified Field is the better card.
Against Stax or Shop Aggro Petrified Field is the better card.
Against Fish Petrified Field is the better card.
Against Deez Goyfs, SS and Deez Noughts Petrified Field is the better card.
Against Oath Petrified Field is better.
Basically the only two exceptions are Long and Flash and even Long is less likely to win turn 2 than it used to be.

Next time, try to read everything before asking something

[wiley]

Manaless Ichorid has taken two top 8 spots at a recent 90 man event in milano (1st and 8th) with a pretty different list than what is here.
link http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=767

A Manaless Ichorid also took 1st at a 30 man event in littleton, CO as well as a mana'd version taking 6th.
link http://www.blackgoldsports.com/5th%20Vintage%20Proxy.htm

What I find notable is that they all run dryad arbor as an extra creature for returns/therapies  and way to fuel a free silence.  Something I like a lot from the 1st @ milano list is the inclusion of oxidize in the side and britney in the main.  This should answer pithing needle/EE/force a crypt/trini fairly well.  Artifact disruption is the most potent way to fight this deck after leyline.

Any thoughts on these lists Bert?

[saradoc]

have anyone of you consider to drop the combo out of the deck? I´m playing ichorid since I discovered it on the starcity forums,  before moebas and bridges, and I think that thanks to the bridge the dread combo is not needed anymore. Almost everytime I killed with the combo I realized that I would have also won without it. Now when I play ichorid I don´t play with returns, wining a lot of extra space for more disruption. Here is the list that I played some months ago wining a Timetwister (1st calsificate without P9) and a Black Lotus (winner):

4 Bazaar of Bagdad
4 Serum Powder
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Unmask
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 City of Brass
1 Lotus Petal
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancient Grudge

Side

3 Gemstone Mine
3 Emerald Charm
3 Contagion
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Mystical Tutor

Today I would drop the wraiths for some aditional disruption, maybe duress/thoughseize, and 1 city for Mox Jet. When people face ichorid they usually mulligan into a hand that gives them options to win fast, without thinking in ichorids disruption. Opening with duress and therapy or unmask and therapy (much easier) can be really huge. Also the maindeck chain and grudge help in a platinum full meta, which was at that time. in todays meta it could be better adding petrifeid field.

My latest versions are evolving into a mana stile ichorid, obviously slower, but  more stable and not that much dependant on bazaar. 

[wiley]

An interesting deck build recently got third at quebec recently http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35531.0

They decided to run a full suite of wastelands and a strip mine over 2 cities and 3 fields.

I think this is and excellent idea as it still wins you the ichorid mirror (which is what city was for) and it helps to keep other decks off their crucial mana, which is pretty much the only viable strategy against the new flash currently, and can keep people from casting needle (or following it up effectively).  It also stops shop decks from playing spheres and still having any chance to beat you (though the shop match was largely in our favor anyway), as well as putting additional pressure on gush decks and taking away a lot of black sources so they can't cast extirpate.

What are your thoughts on this?

[meadbert]

An interesting deck build recently got third at quebec recently http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35531.0

They decided to run a full suite of wastelands and a strip mine over 2 cities and 3 fields.

I think this is and excellent idea as it still wins you the ichorid mirror (which is what city was for) and it helps to keep other decks off their crucial mana, which is pretty much the only viable strategy against the new flash currently, and can keep people from casting needle (or following it up effectively).  It also stops shop decks from playing spheres and still having any chance to beat you (though the shop match was largely in our favor anyway), as well as putting additional pressure on gush decks and taking away a lot of black sources so they can't cast extirpate.

What are your thoughts on this?

Before I discovered Petrified Field I actually ran 4 Wastes and Strip in the main along with 3 Tormod's Crypt.  Those cards are great and they are actually a solid response to Wasteland.  If your opponent uses it first land drop to Waste your Bazaar and then you waste their second land drop then they are left pretty mana shafted.  Which deck wins in this case?  Usually Manaless Ichorid.  Back then I ran something ridiculous like 20 dredgers if you include Gigapede so I was very likely to keep the dredgers coming after a Wasteland.

Wasteland is a great response to Shop Aggro in general.  They usually do not run Crucible and without Shop they have some real problems.  Turn 1 Juggernaught without little to follow up is not even that threatening for Ichorid since it is easy to chump Block Juggernaught with Tokens or even use the fact that Juggernaught MUST attack to sacrifice your own Narcomoebas to produce more tokens.

[wiley]

I shuffled up your current list with the following changes last night after chem to test game 1 vs new flash:
- 3 field - 2 city + 4 wastes + 1 strip

I only got to play 6 games but my testing was interesting.  (I did each game random as to who goes first.)

2/10 games ichorid had a starting hand w/bazaar + leyline and followed up turn 2 with a waste, ichorid wins.
2/10 games flash has turn 1 combo and wins befor ichorid gets a turn.
1/10 games flash has turn one combo but gets screwed when ichorid goes first and drops LL, chalice @ 0 and bazaar
1/10 games ichorid plays bazaar, chalice (pacted), chalice and wins off pact
1/10 games ichorid plays city, therapy for flash then follows up next turn with waste and 3rd turn bazaar to win 5th turn
2/10 games flash wins second turn with protection and ichorid has no disruption in the opening grip
1/10 games ichorid mulls to five then powders twice and tries chalice (pacted) bazaar into nothing relevant and flash wins on its turn 2 upkeep

Even though Flash's combo only requires two mana it seems to me like mana denial is the only true viable way to fight it with ichorid (since we don't run counters).  I have yet to test this further (will probably dedicate some of this afternoon to it) but I think I would take out the 2 ancestor's chosen for a city and darkblast (darkblast being another way to fight the combo).

Aslo the wastes/strip should improve the oath match since you can control your creatures thanks to therapy, and you can waste their orchards (plus chalice @ 0 has to be answered before they can do any infinite combos).

The gountlet I'll be two fisting against is Oath, New Flash, Shop Aggro, and GAT.  I'll try and post my results for criticism later tonight.

[meadbert]

The gountlet I'll be two fisting against is Oath, New Flash, Shop Aggro, and GAT.  I'll try and post my results for criticism later tonight.

Our Gauntlets are identical.   

It seems Wasteland is really good right now.  Perhaps Wastes and Strips should replace Fields.

[wiley]

I started a structured testing regiment that I will try to flesh out the rest of the weekend for the entire gauntlet.  The way I will be testing is as follows 10 games pre-board with Ichorid on the play versus deck x, then 10 games pre-board with ichorid on the draw versus deck x.  Repeat for post board games.  So a total of 40 games against each of the decks.  I realize this is a fairly small test sample and should most certainly be taken with a grain of salt, especially since I know how to play Ichorid better than any of the decks in my gauntlet (though I do know many streamlined plays to beat Ichorid with these decks).  Deck x will be played out on mws while Ichorid will be my physical copy (while this does save a lot of time it does mean that the shuffle effects and starting hands won't necessarily be at the same randomization).

As of right now I have finished the pre-board on the play matches versus flash (lark build posted by Stephen in his recent article).
My Raw data shows 9/1 in ichorid's favor on the play in game 1.
I this testing Ichorid mulled to 1 once, flash did twice (zero blue sources, including fetches, in the opening grip 6 times in a row.  I blame this on mws, but assume it can happen in real life). 
Games where flash would have won if it had gone first = 2
Games in which Ichorid started with Leyline in play = 2
Games where ichorid cast 1st turn unmask = 4 (resolved = 3)
Games in which Ichorid cast 2 or more Cabal Therapies by turn 2 = 7
Games in which Ichorid used strip min/wasteland to shut out Flash's non-artifact mana = 2
Games in which flash had a 2nd turn kill with pact of negation backup = 4
Games in which flash had a turn 1 kill with no backup = 1

My notes, Flash can not deal with leyline and discard game one (or at least it is very difficult to do).  Unmask is an mvp in this match.  I kept a hand of LL, chalice, unmask, thug, city of brass, therapy, chalice and won.  Bait the first counter with chalice, then if they counter repeat.  Unmask pitching thug, then therapy.  You have now neutered their hand and it is harder for them to come back than it is for you. 

I found myself casting on average two therapies on turn two, unless I was specifically looking to dread return a troll I named flash with the first blind one, then picked off whatever I wanted with the second.  Flash's ability to use scroll to get another flash is irrelevant, this automatically slows them to a turn 3 deck without black lotus, and ichorid's turn 3 is almost always better.  And remember that on the draw Flash has no chance to cast pact of negation aggressively (I am fairly certain this will prove a large factor for the match when play order is reversed) and so is relegated to having 4 FoW and 1 MisD (where MisD only works against Unmask), this is a huge disadvantage for flash.

The wastes/strip saved me at least twice where I kept flash off the critical mana required to flash, I am very happy so far with their work.

I used dread return 3 times, always on troll to ensure that both a lone troll or a horde of zombies would be enough to kill the opponent, this was mostly due to the fact that many decks run e truth or EE/powder keg to stop your zombies so I am in the practice of forcing the opponent to have at least two answers.

I will continue to post my results as I come by them to make sure no one has to read a wall of text, and to allow feedback from the community on how I am horribly wrong/correct in my findings.  Thank you all for your time.

[meadbert]

Deez Goyfs/Noughts probably should be added to the Gauntlet.  It has been very good for a while and if Flash starts to rise Deez Goyfs may rise with it since it ihas such a strong Flash matchup.  It also has a strong Ichorid matchup!
On the other hand, Flash make sure that GAT continues to show up in strong numbers and Deez Goyfs can struggle with GAT.

[wiley]

Which do you think would be better to test against between TKDeezNaughts and Dark Illusions?  Both do similar things, but Dark Illusions runs 1 more stifle effect, EE main, and has more effective Ichorid answers in the board.  I would think testing against the tougher of the two matchups to be more helpful.

On another note here are my notes from Ichorid vs Flash with Flash on the play

Total score Flash: 1 Ichorid: 9
Games in which Ichorid cast turn 1 Unmask/chalice/leyline/Therapy: 6
Total games in which Ichorid cast 3 or more therapies turn 2: 5
Games in which Ichorid returned troll (after a therapy to make sure it wouldn't be countered): 4
Games in which Flash had turn 1 win: 1 (but Ichorid got a double leyline hand)
Games in which Flash had a turn 2 win: 1 (this game Ichorid only played chalice on it's turn, after two moxen were dropped)
Games where Flash would have won if it ran a single ESG: 2
Games where Flash mulled to oblivion: 1 (getting feeder in hand with no black source then drawing hands with no blue source)

After testing this match I believe the following:
The Flash list is flawed, it needs at least 1 ESG main and 1 volcanic island for when you draw both fanatic and body snatcher without brainstorm (happened 3 times in 20 games).  MWS shuffler sucks, a lot.  Ichorid is the favorite game one against flash, as was the case with the sliver kill as well.  The disruption matters too much in this game.  I will test Stephen's/Chapin's lists at a later date.

Again, if anyone has data to disprove mine I would be thankful to hear it.

Next up on the list is tyrant oath.

[meadbert]

The last time I played 6 games  (2 preboard, 4 post board) I won both times in game 1 with Ichorid and then lost all 4 with Flash.

I believe my Flash sideboard is somewhat unconventional in that I run Sliver Queen as the backup win and I run 3 Chain of Vapors.

The games post board were all pretty close.  Ichorid started with Leyline twice and still lost.  Once Flash started with 2xLeyline.  Another time Flash was able to Chain Leyline on turn 1 and just win on turn 2 and Ichorid had no turn 1 Disruption other than Leyline.

There was a another super close game where Ichorid got way ahead but Flash was able to hardcast a Leyline.

I could easily see the matchup being far closer or in Ichorid's favor but I would like to throw out there that Flash did win the last 4 games I tested post board.

[DoubleDrain]

Manaless Ichorid has taken two top 8 spots at a recent 90 man event in milano (1st and 8th) with a pretty different list than what is here.
link http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=767

A Manaless Ichorid also took 1st at a 30 man event in littleton, CO as well as a mana'd version taking 6th.
link http://www.blackgoldsports.com/5th%20Vintage%20Proxy.htm

What I find notable is that they all run dryad arbor as an extra creature for returns/therapies  and way to fuel a free silence.  Something I like a lot from the 1st @ milano list is the inclusion of oxidize in the side and britney in the main.  This should answer pithing needle/EE/force a crypt/trini fairly well.  Artifact disruption is the most potent way to fight this deck after leyline.

Any thoughts on these lists Bert?

anyone else find it odd that the first 5 lists in Milano all had 61 cards?

[meadbert]

I had not noticed. 

[wiley]

I had not noticed theh 61 cards in decklists either, though it is somewhat interesting.

After reading Stephen's article today I don't think I will use his list in my gauntlet.  Facing his version of flash is a reletively easy match-up, as the sliver kill is easier to deal with and just bringing in leylines isn't really enough to stop us 70% of the time.

I will probably build a list myself including the ESG main and tinker Platz side.   I would expect it more than Stephen's, since the next tourney for me is still a while away.

I doubt it will run 3 chains though, that seems exessive for the format (current or future), would you mind explaining why you chose to run it?

I have been two fisting games against oath recently to get a better feel and understanding of how to play with/against it.  So far unmask and chalice @ 0 have played a huge role for Ichorid.  Usually an oath activation means game over in game 1 (though I have won 2 of these thanks to my habit of forcing two paths to victory [troll and ichorids or zombies]) and wasteland/therapy help to prevent this some of  the time.  Games 2-3 are incredibly hard since they bring in extirpate, pithing needle, tormod's crypt and blazing archon (which is almost better than leyline).

Trying to think of a way to help this match the only thing I could think of is angel of despair.  However, I am unsure if it would hurt the aggro matches too much (that 30-40 point swing has won me games against gat and shop aggro more than I can count).

I kind of wish there was an inverse of chosen, where the opponent lost life according to the number of cards in your grave.  Too broken to see print I'm sure :/

[meadbert]

Chain of Vapor is absolutely amazing in that it deals with Tormod's Crypt, Pithing Needle, Leyline of the Void, Meddling Mage, Chalice@2, Triskelion, Plaz, and just about any other permanent based threat.

What remains are counterspells and instance speed removal/gravehate.  Pact of Negation is great against all of these but Extirpate.

For Extirpate there are several solutions including Gigadrowse (which also deals with Crypt),  and Thoughtseize.

I prefer Thoughtseize because it does have synergy with Chain.  Also, because you can win at instant speed your opponent must leave  open at all times.  Also, if you get access to a second Hulk/Summoner's Pact then you can combo through Extirpate.  Finally you can still get a few creatures out against Extirpate so your opponent better have something else going on. 

Chain of Vapor is by far the best anti hate card.  Its versatility is really amazing.
It RFGs Dragon's permanents if Dragon tries to go off.  It delays Oath one turn which can be the difference between winning and loses.  It removes Resistor as inexpensively as anything.  Even just chaining turn 1 Metalworker is REALLY annoying for Mud.

There are two drawbacks to Chain of Vapor.
1:  They can Chain Back.  Since you are comboing out at instant speed this rarely matters since you usually either have no non lands in play or perhaps a mox.
2:  At cc = 1, Chain is easily hit by Chalice@1.  Against Flash, Shop decks will probably be quick to drop Chalice@2 first so you are less likely to see Chalice@1.

I would be sure to have access to 4 Chain of Vapor after boarding.  Chain is so good!

[wiley]

There was a spoiler on an upcoming card recently called Godhead of Awe (Located Here)

Would this be a decent dread return target?  It makes colossus and platz killable with darkblast and actually pumps any grave trolls you put out.  Just a thought.

[Elfrago]

There was a spoiler on an upcoming card recently called Godhead of Awe (Located Here)

Would this be a decent dread return target?  It makes colossus and platz killable with darkblast and actually pumps any grave trolls you put out.  Just a thought.

But it also slows down your beating with Zombies and Ichorids.
And btw there's already duplicant to fill that role.

[wiley]

Doh!  I had forgotten completely about duplicant.  Though to be fair, if there is a platz or colossus out the zombie rush plan isn't really going to work anyway.

[Elfrago]

Doh!  I had forgotten completely about duplicant.  Though to be fair, if there is a platz or colossus out the zombie rush plan isn't really going to work anyway.

Agreed on Platz, but you're usually able to race a colossus.

[PltnmNgl]

I decided to go back to manaless for fun. Any ideas on how to run my sideboard against Ichorid with mana?

[Elfrago]

I decided to go back to manaless for fun. Any ideas on how to run my sideboard against Ichorid with mana?

Just board in some Enchantment removal and additional lands. You can cut Fields, Chalices, Unmask and Darkblast.

And btw...
Congrats for your finish at Richmond Meadbert!
The additional Wispmare was useful?

[meadbert]

Was the Wispmare useful?  This is a good question.

It was supposed to destroy Leyline through Chalice@1 and destroy Oath and that sort of thing.  None of that happened.  Instead I ended up hardcasting them to beat down Oath.  In that sense they were useful.

If I were to play the deck again I would add a token DSC to the maindeck.  This allows you to survive the Grindstone Kill and bring out all your beaters and win.

Ancestor's Chosen was almost never significant.  I think once I had my Grave-Trolls Extirpated so I Dread Returned Chosen just to have a beater.

I could definitely see dropping to 11 Leyline removal since you never want all 12 in at once, but which ones you want depends on what decks you are playing.  Emerald Charm is great against Fastbond decks since it removes Fastbond at instant speed and it is great against Combo decks because it acts as a Careful Study by untapping Bazaar.   On the other hand Wispmare dodges Resistor and Chalice@1.

[PltnmNgl]

I decided to go back to manaless for fun. Any ideas on how to run my sideboard against Ichorid with mana?

Just board in some Enchantment removal and additional lands. You can cut Fields, Chalices, Unmask and Darkblast.

Why would I cut Unmask?

[Elfrago]

I decided to go back to manaless for fun. Any ideas on how to run my sideboard against Ichorid with mana?

Just board in some Enchantment removal and additional lands. You can cut Fields, Chalices, Unmask and Darkblast.

Why would I cut Unmask?

Simply Becouse you need some more space to side in all those things. Unmask isn't terrible aganist Mana Ichorid, but everithing else is better. It's simply the "less painful" card to cut.

[wiley]

Because you need the room and can cast chalice at 1?  IMO you don't really need anything more than chains + wispmare against them.  If they dig to leyline they aren't in any better position than you.  Wispmare takes out their bridges, something they typically can't/won't do against you.

PS: My Current list (changed much after testing against oath and deez noughts ... changed enough anyways)

        4 Bazaar of Baghdad
        4 City of Brass
        1 Strip Mine
        2 Wasteland
// Creatures
        2 Sundering Titan
        4 Golgari Grave-Troll
        4 Golgari Thug
        4 Ichorid
        4 Narcomoeba
        4 Stinkweed Imp
// Enchantments
        4 Bridge from Below
        4 Leyline of the Void
// Spells
        1 Darkblast
        4 Cabal Therapy
        2 Dread Return
        4 Unmask
// Artifacts
        4 Chalice of the Void
        4 Serum Powder
// Sideboard
SB:  4 Chain of Vapor
SB:  4 Emerald Charm
SB:  4 Gemstone Mine
SB:  3 Wispmare

Vs. Flash:
Discard is king.  Throw it hot and heavy, try for 3 discard spells by turn 2 or chalice at 0 + 2 discard spells.  Therapy names flash first, if they don't have that or scroll go after their draw.  As always keep the pressure up with zombies and mana denial as well.

Vs. Oath:
Discard is king.  Keep oath out of their hand.  This is the only game where I am tempted to throw out a city and therapy turn 1 instead of a bazaar.  Therapy always names oath first, then draw cards/fastbond.  Mana denial keeps them from going to town with storm so chalice and a returned titan are decent goals.

Vs. Deez Noughts:
This one is hard.  Stifles hurth the gameplan and should be named with therapy after trinket mage.   EE is easy to play around but pithing needle is not.  If you get the chance to lay a chalice at 1 go ahead, it shuts off therapy but you now have free reign over the match until they bounce it.  The mana denial helps some but needs to be backed by zombies and discard.  Make your opponent fold to pressure whenever possible.

Vs. Dark Illusion:
This one is easier than Deez Noughts but still hard, Many of the same applies but you need to really lay everything on thick.  Make your opponent think as much as possible.  Return trolls and titans whenever possible, the fat is needed.

Vs. Stax (Uba, Staxless, 5c):
This is cake, you don't need to cast spells.  If you ever get to therapy name welder first then name crypt/pithing needle, even game 2-3.

Vs. Shop Aggro:
This can be difficult but overall I still like this match.  You still want to nab welders first then play it by ear on what to grab next.  Troll is usually bigger than titan in this match and doesn't have bad tricks played on him by welder.  It should be noted that in all of these matches you apply pressure with zombies.  If you have the opening to attack take it.  If they have an untaped welder with no dead robot then swing in.  Get their life total down quick, force them into defensive mode as much as possible.

I often win my games turn 4-5 in a position similar to playing pox back in the day, my opponent's resources ar thrashed and I it's just a matter of time before I win.  The games where I have the most trouble is going to 5 or below on mulls to find bazaar, other than that I usually have enough juice to rape the opponent's hand and slow roll  their lands while feeding them to the horde.

[Troy_Costisick]

Heya,

Has anyone experimented with River Kelpie in their Ichorid build?  It looks like it might have some potential.

Peace,

-Troy