Meadbert Manaless Ichorid Primer

[FadeToBlack]

So any updated thoughts on the "correct list" as of now? I'm walking into my first Vintage tourney next weekend, which means an unknown meta (though I'm plenty familiar with vintage decks)....any specific recommendations for a sb then? I was planning on running your version with 1 Angel of Despair and the 2nd Darkblast main and 3 EC/4 Chain/4 Gemstone/3 Wispmare/1 DSC in the board.

[Elfrago]

As anyone tried Ingot Chewer over Angel of Despair?
Most of the time the Angel is going to destroy an artifact and the possibility of casting the chewer looks loke a huge bonus (especially post-side).

[wiley]

the possibility of casting the chewer looks loke a huge bonus (especially post-side).

If you're talking about hard casting the chew for anything other than its evoke cost then think again.  If you hit 5 mana post board then something is seriously wrong with your opponent, congratulations getting the bye.

As far as chewer over angel in someone's main, angel can take care of things like moat, blazing archon, goblin welder, tidespout tyrant, propaganda and other non-artifact cards.  It also flies and beats for 5.

If you are talking about in the side then chewer is the better card as you want to bring it in against shop aggro, and angel is worthless against a leyline anyway.

I was planning on running your version with 1 Angel of Despair and the 2nd Darkblast main and 3 EC/4 Chain/4 Gemstone/3 Wispmare/1 DSC in the board.

I'll start with the side board.  Painter's combo is not worth meta'ing against, it simply isn't popular enough.  If colossus wasn't needed against tyrant oath's infinite brain freeze then it isn't needed against painter combo.  Emerald Charm is miles better than wispmare, period.  Cutting charms means you cut possible speed boosts in games 2-3, which means Long can race you even better.  This is bad, M'Kay.  Even if 90% of the field were shop decks with 9 sphere I would still run this side board:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Emerald Charm
4 Chain of Vapor
3 other (possibly chewer, possibly wispmare)

Now to the main.  Not running Titan means you can't stop decks from racing you, specifically Long.  I am able to get a 50/50 match up against Long (both Pitch and Grim) thanks almost solely to Titan.  Keeping them off their mana will typically buy you the 1 turn you needed to win.  Without this you will be a turn late far too often.  As for 2 darkblast in the main, why?  Unless you face the mirror it barely does anything.  I regret cutting the 1 in my list last tournament because it could have helped in the mirror and against welders, however I don't feel the second is necessary for disruption or for dredging.

Currently I am trying to fit strip and waste back into the deck.  I am trying this out not simply for mana denial (though that can be important at time) but more for color screw.  Many decks only use duals for their tertiary colors; this means that it is theoretically possible to blank significant portions of peoples’ decks for the relevant amount of time required.

[FadeToBlack]

So dropping the 2nd Darkblast for a Titan seems solid? And for the last 3 slots, is there any optimal choice in a meta without Shops?

[meadbert]

I would just like to echo most of Wiley's comments.

I agree that 2 Dread Return targets and only 1 Darkblast is right in the main.

Also given the current meta, Emerald Charm is better than Wispmare.  If Shops were even 50% of the meta then I would run 4 Wispmare again, but right now there is just far more Long and thus Emerald Charm is better.
For now I would do this as Leyline removal.
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Emerald Charm
2 Wispmare

Regarding the token DSC in the board.  I would take a die and roll it before the tournament if you get 1 or 2 then put it in and otherwise pull it out.  Basically you should already have a good Painter matchup even without DSC and just the threat of having it means your opponent may board out the Painter kill.

I ran 1 Strip and 2 Fields at the last tournament and I would keep it that way.  There are still enough Wastelands out there that I would like to have 2 Petrified Fields.

What I have not settled on is Dread Return targets.  Titan might be the answer right now.  I really liked Eternal Witness at the last tournament.  He was nice for getting Darkblast on line.  He was nice for finding Strip Mine and against Long he finds Chalice of the Void which is key.  I might go with Sundering Titan and Eternal Witness.  I still wonder if Ancestor's Chosen is worth running.
I think I like Eternal Witness better than Angel of Despair, but I really have not made up my mind here.

[FadeToBlack]

If your playing Eternal Witness just to get back a Strip Mine, wouldn't Angel of Despair, much less Sundering Titan, do the same job in a Long meta?

[wiley]

Witness isn't a one trick pony.  She can get back strip to color screw, therapy to mind rape a known hand, unmask to reveal a hand, darkblast to nuke a critter, a bazaar to speed up the game.  She can also play interesting tricks like hiding bridges for a turn when you think they can get a crypt.  In my testing she certainly pulled her fair share of weight, I just found Titan to be better.

I'm not so sure about the relevance of getting back a chalice as by the time you dread return (turn 2-3) it loses a lot of its effect, only stopping rebuild/hurkyl's shenanigans.  It is still a plus point to witness, just not the highest on the list imo.

As for chosen, I have been wondering that as well.  The only reason I don't currently like chosen is because of control slaver.  Titan can keep them off the mana required to activate slaver and further their game plan, chosen just gains you life that ends up pointless as they deck you by forcing you to dredge your library.  If slaver takes a sharp dive in popularity I might switch back to chosen.

[meadbert]

So the top Dread Return targets are probably:
Angel of Despair
Sundering Titan
Eternal Witness
Ancestor's Chosen

The best decks right now seem to be Drain Tendrils, Control Slaver, Long and Maybe Shop Aggro.

Against Drain Tendrils, all are pretty good targets.  Angel of Despair is probably the worst.  Sundering Titan is brutal in its ability to wreck Drain Tendrils manabase.  Ancestor's Chosen gains enough life to make comboing off prohibitively difficult.  Eternal Witness has the flexibility option where you can either grab Strip Mine for Academy or Chalice of the Void or just dredge Stinkweed Imp and then grab Unmask to rip an extra card out of their hand.

Preboard I would rate those:
1:  Sundering Titan
2:  Ancestor's Chosen
3:  Eternal Witness
4:  Angel of Despair

Post board I would probably board out Chosen and Titan.  I would keep Witness and Despair just in case I ran into Platz.  That is an advantage for Witness or Angel.

A second deck to consider is Control Slaver.  Slaver runs maindeck Tormod's Crypt, which can be a pretty good reason to have Eternal Witness since Chalice is key in protecting you from said Crypt.  The reason this argument fails is if you just Dread Return Grave-Troll then finding Crypt is not enough.  Instead your Slaver opponent must find Crypt + removal for Troll!
The real reason Eternal Witness is great against Control slaver is that you can get back City of Brass.  Basically you dredge Darkblast for you draw phase, Dread Return Witness and get City of Brass.  Now you can drop City and Darkblast Welder.  Without Welder Slaver has a really tough time since finding 10 mana to play and activate Mindslaver is not to realistic leaving DSC as their plan B.
Regarding DSC, Ancestor's Chosen is still about the best solution possible there.
Sundering Titan really wrecks Slaver's mana base, but it does not deal with Welder and it can be Welded out.  Since Titan does more damage on the way out, Slaver is usually not keen on Welding out Titan.  Also with Titan's flickering in and out of play it becomes difficult to activate Mindslaver even if it can be Welded in.
Angle of Despair is wonderful in that it Answers Welder.  It is not a great solution to DSC which is something of a problem but it is still solid here. 

A note on Maindeck Platinum Angel.  Getting Tinker off against Ichorid is not that easy.  Basically either Chalice of the Void, Unmask or even Cabal Therapy can stop you.
The most likely way for slaver to get Platz into play is to Weld it in.  For that reason, I am far more focused on removing Welder than on removing Platinum Angel in the main deck.
Post board, we are forced to board some of our engine to address Leyline of the Void and other hate.  This makes us far more vulnerable to Tinker->Platinum Angel.  For this reason Platinum Angel removal becomes more important post board.  For these reasons I like Angel of Despair and Eternal Witness after sideboarding.  It is very convenient to use Witness to get Chain of Vapor to remove any annoying non land permanents.

For Slaver I would actually rank the creature as:
1:  Eternal Witness (getting City of Brass to Darkblast Welder or getting Chalice to stop a Crypting)
2:  Angel of Despair (removes Welder)
3:  Sundering Titan (wrecks mana base)
4:  Ancestors Chosen (stops DSC in its tracks)

Finally we have Long.  As Wiley mentioned Titan usually removes a land or two against Long.  Generally 1 is more common.  This can be all it takes and for this reason Titan is not much better than Angel of Despair.
Eternal Witness can grab Stip Mine to remove a land or get an Extra Unmask which can be huge or grab Chalice of the Void.
Finally Ancestor's Chosen can gain 30 life which makes Long's job much more difficult.  They can still deck you with Wheel, Yawg, Wheel or other insane plays and they can certainly storm to 20 in certain situations, but generally Dread Returning Ancestor's Chosen is your best bet for stopping Long from comboing out next turn.  For these reasons I rank the creatures like this for Long:
1:  Ancestor's Chosen
2:  Eternal Witness
3:  Sundering Titan
4:  Angel of Despair

Finally I will comment on Shop Aggro.  Basically all sorts of Fish decks, ICBM Oath and many random decks fall into this same category.
For these Ancestor's Chosen basically guarentees that you win the race.  Titan can wreck mana bases making it great.  Generally these decks have resolved threats making Witness poor since Chalice and Unmask lose their effectiveness when an opponent has already got its threat in play.  Finally Angel of Despair is convenient for removing these said resolved threats.
1:  Ancestor's Chosen
2:  Angel of Despair
3:  Sundering Titan
4:  Eternal Witness

Accumulating these results yields:
1:  Ancestor's Chosen (8)
2:  Sundering Titan (10)
2:  Eternal Witness (10)
4:  Angel of Despair (12)

It is more complicated than this though, because I was only considering pre board which accounts for a meer 1/3 of games.  I generally end up boarding out Ancestor's Chosen and Sundering Titan.  Only Witness and Despair would stay in so those cards get a boost.

My take is that you should probably run either Witness or Angel of Despair.  Which you run should probably be determined by how much Long you expect.  In the near term I am expecting a great deal of Long since Slaver has done well and Long beats Slaver.  For that reason I recommend Witness.  If you are in a Long light meta and expect main deck Platinum Angel then definitely go for Angel of Despair.

For the second card I recommend Ancestor's Chosen or Sundering Titan.  Titan is better against Slaver and Drain Tendrils which are two of the top decks right now.  This means that Titan is probably best here, but if you have either a tremendous amount of Long or a ton of Shop Aggro or random Aggro then Ancestor's Chosen would probably be the better choice.

Here is an issue that I have been grappling with for a while:  Should I be keeping Ancestor's Chosen in against Long poast board?  I frequently find that I really want to Dread Return something beyond Grave-Troll.  I used to board out Chosen because I thought the matchup was basically determined by whether or not I got my engine going and Chosen was a "win more" once I got it going.  Now I run into enough cases where I Dread Return and then lose to a Mystical/Imp Seal/Vamped Yawg Will and that is annoying!  Any thoughts or experiences?

[FadeToBlack]

So my understanding is that....

Despair and Witness are similar picks as they deal with removing issues (Vindicate style or by returning randomness from your yard). Despair has the big body and can be pitched to Ichorid or Unmask, while Witness is a bit more diverse in where it can hit your opponent (their hand, as well as the board)...so that seems like a bit of a tossup.

And then there's Titan and Ancestor's Chosen. Both seem solid at fighting combo, as Titan wrecks their manabase (making it harder for them to go off) and Chosen makes them go through a more extraordinary Storm process, though your still left open to being decked. And while Chosen is better against random aggro matchups, the fact that Titan has a presence against Slaver makes me think it deserves the nod.

All of that seem about right? Final question is, if DSC doesn't get the 15th SB slot, what does? That 2nd Darkblast?

[wiley]

So the top Dread Return targets are probably:
Angel of Despair
Sundering Titan
Eternal Witness
Ancestor's Chosen

The best decks right now seem to be Drain Tendrils, Control Slaver, Long and Maybe Shop Aggro.

I typically look at what is most popular, so while the end result is contiguos with your list I personally see it as: Slaver, Tendrils, Aggro.  This puts some skew on how I evaluate choices compared to you as will be shown further down.

Against Drain Tendrils
[snip]
Finally we have Long
[snip]

In a game against any tendrils based build there is a common theme, string ~9 spells together and cast tendrils.  You already have chalice of the void to shut of inexpensive spells like the moxen, lotus and mana crypt.  You already have leyline to shut off yawg will.  You also have a deck filled with discard to hamper their ability to even see 10 cards in a turn.  You rarely ever damage yourself so they will have to storm to the full 10 count or they fizzle.

Since you already have a good strategy for the other plans of attack, what will give you another blade to strike with?  Looking at Long lists I see that, outside of lotus and moxen that we already attack, the only source of blue is from lands.  Blue is a strong part of their draw, especially when considering that the black draw requires life, which we are also attacking.  Therefore, attacking mana production past that granted by chalice is a decent idea.  Looking at Drain Tendrils, a deck that is steadily gaining supporters, I see that it also requires a fairly high amount of mana to function properly even before it goes off thanks to the large amount of high costed (for vintage anyway) draw spells.  This leads me to the conclusion that land denial is a viable strategy.  Sundering Titan is the best creature for this.  He will often take out 1-2 lands, many times of an important color.  In addition to this, even if you don't get a single zombie out of the deal he is still a 3 turn clock minimum, often less as Long often uses its life as a resource.

What else can I do though?  I could gain 30-40 life, meaning that they have to storm to an even higher degree.  This could easily put me out of reach for 1-3 turns even if they run multiple tendrils.  Ancestor's Chosen does this.  Unfortunately, if you get no zombies out of this then he is a 5 turn clock; luckily he has first strike so any bobs that might be in the way don't stand a chance of killing him.

Anything else?  I could strengthen the gamelan of discard and chalice with Eternal Witness.  Chalice is a hit or miss piece of disruption only slightly less so than leyline (you have to have leyline in the opening grip, you can draw into chalice at any time) so strengthening this plan can help to shut off plays involving rebuild and multiple 0 cost artifacts.  The discard is typically ripe enough that it needs no help, but overkill isn't really a bad thing when your opponent can win off a top deck.  Witness is the worst one to rely on as a beater though, as she is a 2/1 without any tricks.

There really is no reason that I would want angel in here unless Drain Tendrils is running Tinker->Platinum in the main.  I have yet to see such a list and so will not even consider it in this data set.

What about post board?

I think this is where we begin to differ in play styles Bert.  I try my hardest to keep Titan in for post board games against Long.  Often doing something similar to -3 field, -1 darkblast, -1 titan, -1 return, -2 imp, -2 thug, +3 mine, +4 chain, +4 charm.

Titan still puts your opponent in a crippled position and gives you a 7/10 body that is fairly resistant to tarmogoyfs or negators thrown in its way.

Chosen would still allow for the game to stall out, your opponent still has all of their resources open to them, it can survive both tarmo and negator (first strike).

Witness can give you support again, especially relevant now that you have charms in the deck.

Angel is still bad.

For Tendrils based decks pre board:
1. Titan
2. Chosen
3. Witness
4. Angel

Post board:
1. Witness
2. Titan
3. Chosen
4. Angel

A second deck to consider is Control Slaver
[snip]

The entire control slaver match up revolves around 1 thing; control Goblin Welder.  If he gets down your life becomes very stressful as they can pull of a huge number of crippling trick like welding in crypt, slaver, platz etc.  The most damaging of those is definitely slaver though, as a single activation will most likely result in you drawing to death under their control.

You have a few built in methods to handle welder being discard (doesn't help against a top decked welder), darkblast (nukes your bridges, but that doesn't always matter) and chalice to keep him off weldable food (there is still sol ring, top, mana vault and possibly more though).  So, since it proves to be a fairly hard creature to attack, what other ways are there to mitigate his damage when he finally becomes active?

Once he is down your targets should immediately switch to thirst for knowledge.  You can be relatively assured that he will never get to pitch an artifact through the discard phase so he has to use either tfk or gifts/intuition/tinker to get the artifacts into the grave.  All of these are fairly expensive and have a specific color requirement.  In addition to casting these spells they need 4 mana to activate slaver.  It is hard to keep someone off 4 generic mana unless you start the game with a chalice.  A chalice later in the game does little to help as they will already have moxen in play. 

Therefore, we again come to land denial, specifically color screw.  Titan will almost always grab 2 land when he comes into play here, getting rid of an island and a volcanic island.  This gives you a clock, puts the opponent off their clock and puts the welder into red zone considerations.

Life gain does absolutely nothing to stop drawing out, so Chosen doesn't matter at all in this match up.

Witness can speed up your dredging, possibly getting you to darkblast sooner, any other target will most likely be a discard spell since chalice won't matter at that point.

Angel can get rid of welder before he becomes active and provides you with a 4 turn clock.  It can also get rid of a main deck platz if they run it (the popular choice is Titan/DSC over Platz).

What about post board?

The dread return target could be kept in, if it was I would try siding out unmask, fields, and some combination of ichorid/imp/thug. 

Titan still provides an excellent clock and destroys vital mana producers.

Chosen is still worthless, side it out.

Witness can speed the deck up with even more certainty and can help you bounce welders.

Angel can still kill welder, I would rather have sb cards though.

Slaver pre board:
1. Titan
2. Witness
3. Angel
4. Chosen

Post board:
1. Witness
2. Titan
3. Angel
4. Chosen

Finally I will comment on Shop Aggro.  Basically all sorts of Fish decks, ICBM Oath and many random decks fall into this same category.
For these Ancestor's Chosen basically guarentees that you win the race.  Titan can wreck mana bases making it great.  Generally these decks have resolved threats making Witness poor since Chalice and Unmask lose their effectiveness when an opponent has already got its threat in play.  Finally Angel of Despair is convenient for removing these said resolved threats.
1:  Ancestor's Chosen
2:  Angel of Despair
3:  Sundering Titan
4:  Eternal Witness

There are a few things with this that I don't agree with/have something to add.  Chosen is decidedly the best, for sure.  However, angel only does more than titan in the shop aggro match up where Titan gets at most 0-1 lands.  While angel might destroy a resolved threat it is only relevant against 3 threats, Karn, metalworker and platz.  If angel destroys a juggs, well titan does that too, same with trike and multiple other attackers.  In any other match, such as fish or rg beatz I would rather have titan thanks to the crippling mana denial.  That 7/10 body is not insignificant.  It warps the red zone against everything except dreadnought and colossus.

My take is that you should probably run either Witness or Angel of Despair.  Which you run should probably be determined by how much Long you expect.  In the near term I am expecting a great deal of Long since Slaver has done well and Long beats Slaver.  For that reason I recommend Witness.  If you are in a Long light meta and expect main deck Platinum Angel then definitely go for Angel of Despair.

For the second card I recommend Ancestor's Chosen or Sundering Titan.  Titan is better against Slaver and Drain Tendrils which are two of the top decks right now.  This means that Titan is probably best here, but if you have either a tremendous amount of Long or a ton of Shop Aggro or random Aggro then Ancestor's Chosen would probably be the better choice.

Here is an issue that I have been grappling with for a while:  Should I be keeping Ancestor's Chosen in against Long poast board?  I frequently find that I really want to Dread Return something beyond Grave-Troll.  I used to board out Chosen because I thought the matchup was basically determined by whether or not I got my engine going and Chosen was a "win more" once I got it going.  Now I run into enough cases where I Dread Return and then lose to a Mystical/Imp Seal/Vamped Yawg Will and that is annoying!  Any thoughts or experiences?

I really don't like the idea of running 2 different targets; to me this will result in having the wrong one at times.  Shop is currently under the thumb of both Slaver and Long, and chosen sucks against slaver so I wouldn't run it.  Since most of the random decks you face will be some variation of fish I wouldn't run witness.  It is an extremely rare case to find platinum angel main deck for any current archetype, so I see little to no reason running the angel.  That leaves me with Titan which is what I run.  This may be bad/suboptimal when I face against Dragon or Shop Aggro but I feel as though Titan will get the most efficient use out of my dread returns.

As far as Long is concerned, getting them below 7 life as fast as possible is one of my goals in that match up.  This shuts off the double grim tutor plan and hampers necro/bargain as well as 2/3 of their top deck tutors.  Sometimes there just isn’t anything to do against such a play, especially the turn it hits, so trying to prevent it from ever happening is the best route in my opinion.

[Eastman]

I think the best dread return targets are Cephalid Sage and Flame-kin Zealot.  Returning Cephalid Sage consistently leads to a second dread return on zealot and a win that turn.  Wiley I agree with your analysis with respect to which targets will disrupt the opponent the best, but isn't it better just to win and be done with it? 

[meadbert]

Hi Wiley,
  Thanks for you assessment.  I think we agree about most everything you said.  The main differences were how good Titan is versus Long and how useful it is to have two distinct Dread Return targets.  First I will comment on Long.  Generally I test against two "real" Long decks.  I test against 2 Color Pitch Long where Titan is certainly useful.  I also test against Rainbow Land Grim Long similar to Stephen Menendian's original list back from 2005.  Generally Grim Long is the worse matchup because it is faster.

Obviously Titan is worse than Grave-Troll again a Rainbow manabase.  In this manor my testing is outdated since even Stephen is now running a Fetch base for his 3-4 color list.

Instead I will comment on Pitch Long.  The problem I have with Pitch Long, is that while Sundering Titan almost always takes out 1 land and sometimes take out two, Long frequently can play around that.  Examples of games where there might be a problem are when they played Twister last turn (in which case we are problably not Dread Returning anyway) or when they resolved a Necro.  In these cases they are likely to be holding the only land they will ever need.
So the first problem is they may need no lands.

The second problem is the Fetchland problem.  If they have a fetchland out and they have another land in hand then they will have 2 lands next turn and since Long is designed around winning on turn 2, 2 Lands are all it should need to win.

The final problem is Academy.  It is annoying that the land that I most want to remove cannot be removed by Sundering Titan.

It sounds like you have tested Sundering Titan in the Long/Dredge matchup far more than me in the current meta, so I am going to start following your advice here, but I know mostly from maindeck testing that Titan frequently does not do enough against Long.  It sure beats Dread Returning a Grave-Troll though!

Now I will address having two seperate Dread Return targets.
I notice that you listed Eternal Witness as the best option post board against both Long and Slaver.  To me that strongly suggests that Witness should be one of the two Dread Return targets.  At this point I agree with you that Titan should be the other.

A reason for running two different Dread Return targets is that sometimes you dredge both and then it is nice to have some options.  If you are playing Slaver then it might be nice to have a choice at times between Witness and Titan.  If you are staring down Volc, Underground, Island then Titan is looking amazing, but if instead your opponent has a Welder and several moxen out then you might rather grab Witness.  Also if your opponent already Tinkered for DSC and got 1 Swing in then Witness is nice for finding Chain of Vapor.  I concede that it is fairly rare (~25%) to have both targets so in that sense it might make sense to pick the best target and run two of those.  Given what you wrote above though, it is not clear to me that Titan is heads and shoulders above Witness.  It sounds like Titan and Witness are significantly ahead of Ancestor's Chosen, who in turn is way ahead of Angle of Despair ... and I do still test against dragon and I HATE it when Dragon Animates my own Angel and either removes my Leyline or my Bazaar!

Regarding the 15th slot in the sideboard:  I would definitely run the second Darkblast there.  So if I were to play a tournament today I would probably go with this:

Bazaar Stuff:
4 Bazaar of Baghdad
4 Serum Powder
2 Petrified Field

Dredgers:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

Beaters:
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid

Fast disruption:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Unmask
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Strip Mine

Flashback Stuff:
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Sundering Titan
1 Eternal Witness

Sideboard cards that are in the main:
4 City of Brass

sideboard cards that are in the sideboard:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Chain of Vapor
4 Emerald Charm
2 Wispmare
1 Darkblast

[meadbert]

I think the best dread return targets are Cephalid Sage and Flame-kin Zealot.  Returning Cephalid Sage consistently leads to a second dread return on zealot and a win that turn.  Wiley I agree with your analysis with respect to which targets will disrupt the opponent the best, but isn't it better just to win and be done with it? 

It comes down to deck space.  If you are willing to devote 7-8 slots to Dread Return then you can run 3-4 Dread Return along with 2 Cephalid Sage and 2 Flame-Kin Zealot and there you have the win now Factor.
Actually Flame-Kin Zealot is solid on its own against Long since Long needs its life so much.

Anyway, I generally have been running 3-4 slots for Dread Return rather than 7-8.  Dropping 4 other cards is painful.  Basically, gaining the "win now" factor is good.  I am a huge fan of "win now."
What I am not a huge fan of is having to drop Darkblast, Strip Mine and both Petrified Fields which is probably what I would do to get the "win now" combo.

[wiley]

I think the best dread return targets are Cephalid Sage and Flame-kin Zealot.  Returning Cephalid Sage consistently leads to a second dread return on zealot and a win that turn.  Wiley I agree with your analysis with respect to which targets will disrupt the opponent the best, but isn't it better just to win and be done with it? 

It comes down to deck space.  If you are willing to devote 7-8 slots to Dread Return then you can run 3-4 Dread Return along with 2 Cephalid Sage and 2 Flame-Kin Zealot and there you have the win now Factor.
Actually Flame-Kin Zealot is solid on its own against Long since Long needs its life so much.

Anyway, I generally have been running 3-4 slots for Dread Return rather than 7-8.  Dropping 4 other cards is painful.  Basically, gaining the "win now" factor is good.  I am a huge fan of "win now."
What I am not a huge fan of is having to drop Darkblast, Strip Mine and both Petrified Fields which is probably what I would do to get the "win now" combo.

These are my feelings exactly.  I have had too many games hinge on fields or wastes or darkblast that would not have been won by sage->zealot.  There is a place and time for it, I just don't believe it is now.

Hi Wiley,
  Thanks for you assessment.  I think we agree about most everything you said.  The main differences were how good Titan is versus Long and how useful it is to have two distinct Dread Return targets.  First I will comment on Long.  Generally I test against two "real" Long decks.  I test against 2 Color Pitch Long where Titan is certainly useful.  I also test against Rainbow Land Grim Long similar to Stephen Menendian's original list back from 2005.  Generally Grim Long is the worse matchup because it is faster.

The Long builds I test against (and have built) are TK's pitch long and Stephen's latest grim long.  I haven't tested against a rainbow mana base, in such an instance the only relevant part of Titan is the 7/10 body, which troll often outshines.

Instead I will comment on Pitch Long.  The problem I have with Pitch Long, is that while Sundering Titan almost always takes out 1 land and sometimes take out two, Long frequently can play around that.  Examples of games where there might be a problem are when they played Twister last turn (in which case we are problably not Dread Returning anyway) or when they resolved a Necro.  In these cases they are likely to be holding the only land they will ever need.
So the first problem is they may need no lands.

The second problem is the Fetchland problem.  If they have a fetchland out and they have another land in hand then they will have 2 lands next turn and since Long is designed around winning on turn 2, 2 Lands are all it should need to win.

The biggest thing here is that you are also attacking on other fronts.  They may be able to play around losing a land normally, but not if you cast multiple therapies (even saccing titan if you must) in addition to this.  Necro becomes a dangerous card for long when their life is being drained so efficiently.

If they have a fetchland in play then why bother dread returning at all?  Why not just spend those creatures on cabal therapies naming ritual?  Or if you have some strange board position you could try dread returning a thug, saccing to therapy putting narc on top and then dredging.  This will most likely get you to a lethal show of force for the next turn while also putting forth large road blocks for the Long player.

The only other target that actually helps against fetchland is chosen as witness will only grab a bazaar hopefully getting you to more therapies.  Neither of these will set you up with a win next turn with consistency.

In addition to this, there is the possibility that Long is running a white splash for chant like Becker did at CC3.  If they chant you then you only get to attack w/ ichorids, and everything else is a moot point.

The final problem is Academy.  It is annoying that the land that I most want to remove cannot be removed by Sundering Titan.

This is one of the reasons that I am trying to fit wastes and strip back into the deck.  However, I have found that them getting their 1 of academy happens about as often as us getting our 4 of chalice in the top ~9.  I still find that I want an answer to workshop and academy quite often.

Now I will address having two seperate Dread Return targets.
I notice that you listed Eternal Witness as the best option post board against both Long and Slaver.  To me that strongly suggests that Witness should be one of the two Dread Return targets.  At this point I agree with you that Titan should be the other.

My problem with witness is that you are not guaranteed to face long and slaver all day long and she is decidedly less awesome against random decks.  God forbid you go into the x-1 brackets where you are even less likely to fight long and slaver.

A reason for running two different Dread Return targets is that sometimes you dredge both and then it is nice to have some options.

I can't recall any point in which I dredged into both targets and wasn't already in a winning position.  Witness would be overkill at that point by getting me more dredging power, titan hampers the opponent's ability to come back.

Given what you wrote above though, it is not clear to me that Titan is heads and shoulders above Witness.

Titan falls short of witness in some match ups by at least a small degree.  However, the games against things like fish where Titan is better, he is a lot better than witness.  I might be taking the 'safe road' by using what I find to be the most consistent across the board but I am comfortable with that.

As a side note, I carry 2 witness, 2 chosen, 2 angel, 2 zealot, 2 sage, 4 wastes, 1 strip, 4 street wraiths, 4 cephalid coliseum, 1 led, 4 breakthrough, 4 careful study and some other cards with me whenever I think I might play Ichorid.  It is nice to have your options open al the way up until you turn in that deck sheet.  Scout the room and find out which one works best for the situation.

[EDIT] I remembered that I had a pm conversation with someone over on the MTG.com boards a week or so about why I chose Titan over other things.  It's kind of long and a lot of it restates things I have already said so skip it if you want.

For the vast majority of dread return targets you have to look at one thing, what do you want to do game 1.  This is because no matter what your target is it is typically going to be sided out for mana sources and bounce/destruction spells in game 2-3.  I chose titan for a variety of reasons, many of which come from my knowledge gained by piloting other decks. 

The biggest key to almost every match up that ichorid has is the resources its opponent has.  You constantly attack their hand and life total in a brutal and efficient fashion.  Unfortunately life doesn't matter until they are at 7 or less (many people say 1 life but in vintage, where so many decks count on using their life as a resource, being on 7 is the exact same thing as being on one) and the fact that you are in the format that is known for the most powerful draw out of any other format (ancestral, will, draw 7s etc.).

The question becomes what resources are their last hope?  What resources do they have to depend upon in order to win the game?  The answer is mana.  Mana is such an amazing pillar of this game, every deck, without exception, needs to use it at some point.  What is the best creature ever printed that inhibits mana production?  Sundering Titan.

The thing is, if you are at a game state where you use dread return, you have the game close to cinched.  You will typically always have their life in lethal range baring multiple bounce spells and their hand will have nothing of relevance because you have cast 2-3 cabal therapies.

Take another look at that statement.  Baring "multiple bounce spells".  What can I limit to make sure such a thing cannot occur?  Mana production!  It typically only takes 1-2 land being destroyed in order to actually cinch the game for sure, Titan averages this and commonly gets 3 (especially if you sac him to a therapy).  The off color moxen don't even count towards the opponent's mana production because they not only have to top deck a mana of the right color, but also draw into multiple bounce spells.

Now look at the angel.  What can she do to limit the opponent's resources?  She can destroy 1 land at maximum.  This typically has a 50% chance of not being enough to properly limit the opponent's options, so she shouldn't even be considered for this role.

What other possible roles can she fill that titan can't?  There are exactly 3, she destroys platinum angel, pithing needle and Karn in game 1.  If you are facing down anything else like crypt, EE, keg, juggernaut, slaver, welder, strip, waste, leyline, planar void etc in game 1 she is no better than titan.

So you have Titan who will win you multiple games where the opponent could conceivably win or prevent you from winning on their turn (I had a winning percentage against many gush based decks thanks to color screw) a large percent of the time or you have angel who can pull you out of corner case situations that very few people are willing to devote main deck space to.

My choice is titan.

I know that ran a little long, but I hope it helps to clarify.  I'm pretty sure that I have taken notes somewhere on all of the targets that I have tested (kuro, kaiga, yosei, kokusho, laqutis' champion, ancestor's chosen, eternal witness, kaervek the merciless, and so forth).  Overall Titan has performed the best.

[Bongo]

What advantages does a Serum Powder build have over the Mana Ichorid builds with Breakthrough?
Are there specific metagames where you'd run Mana Ichorid? If so, what kind of metagames?

To add to the DR targets discussion: I'm using Titan and Chosen at the moment, and have been pleased with the results so far.

[wiley]

A lot of discussion between manaless and mana'd builds can be found here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=35425.0

[kicks_422]

But that's a pretty old thread. I'm still waiting for someone to start a Mana'd Ichorid thread - I probably can't because all I have as experience for the deck are MWS games. I can say that it's pretty consistent though, arguably moreso than Manaless Ichorid. Being more vulnerable to countermagic is a trade-off that I'm comfortable to make if I get consistency and less reliance on Bazaar in return.

I have as DR targets in the Mana'd build, FKZ (I just love that guy) and Eternal Witness. Getting back a Breakthrough is hot. I'm switching Witness for Angel of Despair every once in a while though, because of the randomness in MWS (e.g. Ensnaring Bridge, Solitary Confinement, etc.)

So, yeah. A Mana'd Ichorid thread would be cool.

[wiley]

I can say that it's pretty consistent though, arguably moreso than Manaless Ichorid.

This is largely dependant upon the builds you are looking at.  In my personal opinion the heavy disruption based build seen in this thread is far and wide a different deck than the builds with 4 dr, sage and fkz.  The manaless disruption build is the most consistent one that I have found, followed by the mana'd combo build, followed by the manaless combo build.

The Mana'd version of the deck relaxes much of the reliance on bazaar, can answer certain threats game 1 that manaless can't and has a much faster clock.  It gains this in exchange for almost all of the disruption.  Long becomes a goldfish match up where the winner of the coin flip wins the match.  Slaver starts recurring crypt (which shuts down combo versions much more so than disruption versions), too bad you didn't have that chalice at 0 to stop him from feeding moxen to welder.  Fish sacs a cursecatcher or an icatian and removes your bridges.

There is another thing, the combo version often runs into the problem of either a) not getting enough creatures on the board to therapy and dr in the same turn (remember you want ~6 zombies before fkz comes into play) or b) gets their dr countered.  Lone ichorid and zombie beats aren't too threatening without therapy/unmask/chalice/leyline/wastes/strip/titan backing them up.

In my opinion, while mana versions can fight through leyline, pithing needle and strip effects far better, the fact that it cannot do as much to keep the opponent from winning is a huge loss, and one that can't be accepted when there are other decks just as fast (Long) around as a popular choice.  Even if you use the versions of Mana Ichorid that run force of will, it still ends up being a fairly hollow and token resistance versus most decks' win conditions.

There is also the question of results.  Manaless Ichorid (Combo and Disruption based) have taken 14 top 8 slots at 40+ person events this year, including winning a 95 person event in Milano.  On the other hand Mana'd Ichorid has taken 5, winning a 42 person event at the ICBM open.

References:
Manaless
Mana'd

[FadeToBlack]

Went 4-1 in swiss at a tourney today and lost in the top 8 to Oath cuz I'm awful. But for what its worth, I think I only casted Dread Return twice all day, once on the Witness and once on the Titan. Both seemed to be the correct choices, as the meta was mostly Long and Shop Variants.

[Mdizzle4life85]

I am curious to see the current version of the manaless disruption build, after page 5 of this thread. Where are we standing right now on this?

[mmmekeel]

What about Furystoke Giant as a Dread Return target?
 
Flame-kin requires sacrificing creatures pre-combat, but with furystoke you can sac them post-combat. Due to my lack of experience with the deck, I can't tell whether the extra combat damage from the 3 sac'd creatures outweighs the benefit of Flame-kin, but it's just an idea.

[FadeToBlack]

I am curious to see the current version of the manaless disruption build, after page 5 of this thread. Where are we standing right now on this?

I'm pretty sure the build remains the same, with the only variant being what you run for Dread Return targets. I ran basically the decklist from early on this a week ago. Beat Workshop control R1, lost to Workshop Aggro R2 (tons of misplays by me), beat Grim Long R3, beat Fish R4, and beating TMWA R5. And then proceeded to lose to a hardcast Platinum Angel in the top 8...but oh well. That list seems pretty tight, with, as stated before, a possible change in Dread Return targets depending on preference/the meta.

[ErkBek]

What about Furystoke Giant as a Dread Return target?
 
Flame-kin requires sacrificing creatures pre-combat, but with furystoke you can sac them post-combat. Due to my lack of experience with the deck, I can't tell whether the extra combat damage from the 3 sac'd creatures outweighs the benefit of Flame-kin, but it's just an idea.

Flame-kin gives haste. Furystoke doesn't.

[Elfrago]

Tar Fiend 5b
Creature - Elemental Rare
Devour 2
When Tar Fiend comes into play, target player discards a card for each creature devoured by Tar Fiend.
4/4

This has just been spoiled on MtgSalvation for the upcoming Shards of Alara set.
I think it has some potential as a Dread Return target.
By saccing a few zombies, your opponent has to discard it's entire hand.
Also, it's black and that is a nice thing.

[wiley]

other than p/t wise it isn't really better than sadistic hypnotist, which does the discard job better and can sac itself to create new zombies in a pinch.  The deck has a lot of discard effects as it is, often your opponent will be low on cards that matter when you dr anyway, which is why I haven't suggested the hypnotist before.  Also, most threats to you have been played by the time you dread return so you want something that affects the board like angel of despair or sundering titan or flame kin zealot.

If it turns out this guy has flying then I'll take another look at him, but until then my opinion is that he is a no go.

[meadbert]

Woah.  Sadistic Hypnotist looks REALLY good to me!  At worst you sacrifice him to himself to take away two cards.  At best you can take away a whole hand.

[Elfrago]

I keep liking the Tar Fiend more than the Hypnotist. Simply, he adds a huge body to it's ability.
After he enters into play, he can easily kill the opponent in 2-3 turns alone.

Anyway, IHMO both of 'em are way better than Sundering.

[wiley]

True, he shines against TPS and any other storm deck.  Unfortunately he stops there for the most part.  Against slaver you need to handle the permanents they already have (and you don't need to feed welder), against fish you need the men more than getting rid of their cards in hand, against shops you have the same problem as slaver, against oath you need an answer to oath (though he will sit you at 1 creature permanently), etc.  Also, at times you sac zombies to dread return titan or angel, there is little to no point doing that with fkz or hypnotst.

The last time I tested him was during the gush meta, so feel free to retest.  Like I said, if the fiend turn s out to have flying (or any evasion) I will test it immediately because it will be a functional hypnox.

[nineisnoone]

It was brought up earlier (page 3), but I didn't really see a good response to why Woodfall Primus isn't considered. Given that the primary reasoning for Titan is that it can hit 1-2 Lands, why not play Primus who is pretty much guaranteed to hit 2 lands off Dread Return + Cabal Theraphy?  Note: that you only need 1 Bridge from Below to make sacrificing him to Cabal Therapy yield more P/T.  So there's really no downside to it.  Additionally, it can also hit Academy, Bazaar, Oath, Mox, various artifacts.  It doesn't hit creatures, but then again neither did Titan.  It also blocks pretty much the same relevant creatures in the Shop Aggro Match, Trike, Karn, Jugs.  It chumps for more against DSC and Dreadnought as well.  Additionally, while smaller it does have Trample.  Angel is an issue with either of them.

It seems to be to sort of be a middle ground between Titan and Witness.  It can't hit as many lands as Titan, nor does it have as many options as Witness, but it has more options than Titan has and a better body than Witness.

Not sure if this is a relevant play either, but if you had a Fields in play the turn before, you could destroy your own Bazaar with Primus and get it back with Fields.

Also, why not Seal/Vamp over Wispermares?  A turn slower, but it gives you the options when you don't need Leyline removal, likely another Bazaar.

[wiley]

Primus is worth consideration, you just have to think of where it shines/sucks.  It shines against lands, chalice @ 1, spheres (to a lesser extent), and smokestacks.  It sucks against welders and utility creatures like salvagers, platz and bob.

Compared to titan, if you are going after lands then titan is far better since it requires less work for the same effect and leaves a bigger body, against any other type of permanent primus is probably better.

Compared to angel it is better when destroying noncreature permanents, blocks better against big creatures, still has a form of evasion (albeit one that runs a risk of removing your bridges) and has a bigger body.  Unfortunately it doesn't meet the one condition that angel is typically there for, removing platz from play.  This means angel automatically better than primus.

It might be better than titan, especially for the fact that it can't be welded out and does more against shop decks in general.  I'll try to test it some and get back to you.  I'm still hoping that that fiend has some kind of evasion :/