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Author Topic: Hidden treasures for Vintage (deck ideas, good cards, combos)?  (Read 13912 times)
Everrid1234
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« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2008, 09:31:42 am »

Well, since Eon Hub costs 5 and Remore is played more early in the game i can imagine why this "combo" wasn't played.
Remora's biggest problem is that YOU can't really play anything because you have to pay the upkeep and the opponent just waits.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2008, 04:49:02 am by Everrid1234 » Logged
GrandpaBelcher
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« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2008, 10:23:27 am »

Another card I've always wanted to use competetively is Seedtime.  When I first got into Vintage I played a URG Fish deck with Standstills, Welders, a big artifact toolbox including Memory Jar, and Wild Mongrels.  There was a Seedtime maindeck, and another two sideboard.  One of the best plays was to attack with Mongrel, sac Jar, discard that hand, Weld in Jar, discard that hand, and get in for at least 16 damage.

I can't remember ever resolving a Seedtime, but I'm sure it would have been busted.
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« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2008, 12:05:26 pm »

Psychotic Fury + Dimir Cutpurse = pwnd
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« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2008, 09:39:28 pm »

I'm not a good player by any stretch of the imagination, but I did have two ideas that I wanted to put into action (perhaps even in the same deck).

First is Storm Entity.  It's probably inferior to Tendrils and EtW, but I just really like the idea of this guy.  He's cheap at 1R, so could work as a partial storm kill.  That is, storm up a little bit, then drop this guy (maybe two) as a piece of a bigger strategy.  Sorry that's so vague.  The Entity could work in a GAT-like deck (grow the Dryad big, drop a big SE, and swing with both) or in a UBr Tendrils deck (mid-sized Tendrils followed by SE).

The Second is a more Red-based storm deck.  Something as simple as a Lightning bolt effectively raises the storm count by 2.5 instead of 1, in the sense that you don't need to storm to 9 or 10 to Tendrils.  Add in the fact that you've got some good Rituals in Red now, along with cards like Wheel of Fortune, Burning Wish, Dark Confidant, and you could make something happen.  But then I think I'd rather be in blue, drawing cards and countering spells and such.  Still, could be a fun deck to try out in a casual meta that doesn't require a strong commitment to FoWs or Drains or Misdirections.

I don't know if these count as hidden treasures, but they are fun little ideas I've been thinking about recently.
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Rock Lee
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« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2008, 12:03:47 am »

Well, since Eon Hub costs 5 and Remore is played more early in the game i can imagine why this "combo" wasn't played.
Remora's biggest problem is that YOU can't really play anything because you have to pay the upkeep and the opponent just waits.

For Current-Meta abuse of Mystic Remora, check out the deck Tyrant Blue in the Vintage Improvement Forum! Incredible game against GAT, Staxx, & Combo! Although considering that it has a hazy matchup against aggro, and aggro face-punches GAT, it could only be marginally amazing right now. ^_^

I have always wanted to fit in Shadow of Doubt into decks. I always feel its amazing, and often have to be chided for 4 hours straight by my Teammate about how it is horrible before relenting the 3x or 4x from my decks.
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« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2008, 11:33:40 am »

I have always enjoyed the idea of including aether vial in stax.
Well, obviously the kind of stax that ran creatures like welders/ bobs / grim lavamancers / arcbounds / etc
A few ideas:
*With vial out you can cast those creatures despite being shocked by chalice of the void. So 'don't worry' when casting your own chalices.
*A typical first turn could include workshop --> vial + sphere of resistance/thorn/chalice@1
*With vial out, you can keep abusing Crucible + wasteland/strip mine while bringing out creatures.
The problem as always is what shoud removed from Stax to let vial get in. Anyway I would cut -1 smokestack, -1 tanglewire and -1 other to introduce at least 3 vials.

I don't know if Vial has been discussed/tested previously with stax.

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Burntgerbil
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« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2008, 11:49:31 pm »

I always wanted to build an Ill-Gotten-Gains / Leyline of the Void deck. It just never seemed to perform fast enough when I was testing it.

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vartemis
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« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2008, 11:45:27 am »

I have always wanted to use Storm Cauldron in a deck.  Unfortunately it is one of those cards that needs to have a deck build around it.

j
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mulder
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« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2008, 03:28:38 pm »

Grinning Totem. Stealing an opponent's bomb (Will, Ancestral,...) is never a bad thing. If your opponent plays only 1 win condition it's even gg. Getting a Drain or Fow from an opponent's deck when he plays a spell is not that bad either. It becomes even more fun with Welders ... .
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Bill Copes
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« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2008, 05:04:35 pm »

I've always wanted to build a transformational combo sideboard for stax.  I've never had one pan out very well in a real-time environment, though.  The best thing I achieved was adding 3x empty the warrens (post board) to a red/black build that sported confidants.  The memory is pretty hazy, but I recall dropping a couple moxes, a lock or two, and then emptying for 8 to a dismayed opponent.

I also attempted a blue / black build (still with confidants) that sideboarded in a couple of tendrils and some hurkyll's / rebuilds as well as a few rituals.  That idea didn't pan out at all.

Another transformational SB idea would be to try serveyance + blecher in the board, although I have no idea what match you'd want to bring that in for.

It's always been a great hope of mine to achieve the ability to completely change archetypes mid-match.  Opponent confusion is fun.
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« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2008, 09:43:51 am »

2 words: broodstar runner

Rebuilding that for todays vintage would be _insane_. Its a workshop deck that can go combo, aggro, or prison/control. It wins by turn 3 / 4 most of the time.

search for it on the forums.
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« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2008, 11:13:05 am »

2 words: broodstar runner

Rebuilding that for todays vintage would be _insane_. Its a workshop deck that can go combo, aggro, or prison/control. It wins by turn 3 / 4 most of the time.

search for it on the forums.

That deck looks fun as hell but I can't see it being better in today's meta than Mono Red Aggro. 
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Bill Copes
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« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2008, 12:34:25 pm »

Quote
2 words: broodstar runner

I just read the old threads.  I'm totally inspired  Very Happy.
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« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2008, 11:03:30 am »

I think it might be time to look at Survival f the Fittest again. It has been used so many times in the past to create competitive vintage decks ...

Some ideas ...
TNT workshop/survival revisted
New Evoke combos and a number of other combos ( Saffi Eriksdotter/ Loyal Retainers as an example) or even a dread return type deck
Mask/Dread/Survival
FeB
Stompy green
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« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2008, 08:32:08 pm »

Concerning Saffi Eriksdotter:

I always wondered if someone in R&D named Erik had a daughter named Saffi...hence the namesake.

Funny, but off topic.

Saffi + Loyal Retainers might be kind of cool in a deck like old-school "Chimera" (Fecundity, Ashnod's Altar, Saproling Cluster).  SotF would work well, getting Saffi into the grave to be "retained".  Perhaps Rectors to get Fecudity into play.  Fecundity + Saffi + Retainers = drawing library and winning.  BoP for acceleration and maybe even add black for victiMISE (not really, but man did I love that card when it came out).  Just some thoughts.

-Matt
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karlake
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« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2008, 06:13:15 pm »

Elf-clamp with therapies! Maybe with steelshapers gift for skullclamp-fetching, and/or mirror entity for overrun and infinite with symbiote and priest of titania.

(remember where you saw it first Smile)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2008, 06:29:37 pm by karlake » Logged
redmage419
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« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2008, 11:38:00 pm »

Candelabra of Tawnos and Transmute Artifact are both cards that I've been trying to do something with for years.  The thing is they're really fun cards but they really aren't fast enough in today's meta.  Let me know if anyone has a way to break them effectively.

The Candelabra' intrigues me as well.
In theory, it should be fast enough since Workshop/City of Traitors + Candelabra = infinite mana (Ancient Tomb would be too painful Wink )
Staff Of Domination could be an interesting draw engine for that combo. Draw & Play an entire Mud Deck, on the first turn, for a Ravager -> Fling? lol
Maybe a combo deck that Serum powder's into MWS/City like Ichorid does for Bazaar?

Then there's Tolarian Academy + Candelabra' + a "random artifact" = infinite mana.
Here, the first deck that jumps out at me is the Bomberman shell. You've already got Trinkets to fetch the Candelabra, and/or a "random artifact". Cunning Wish/Merchant Scroll -> Stroke of Genius FTW. The drawback is that, unlike MWS/City, Academy is restricted. Still, Candelabra' + Stroke' seems like an interesting backup win condition that wouldn't take up much space in the deck/sideboard.  Juan Rodriguez ran a Tolaria West in his 4th place list last year; it may help, or it may be a bit slow.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2008, 11:42:41 pm by redmage419 » Logged
xycsoscyx
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« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2008, 01:25:49 am »

The Candelabra' intrigues me as well.
In theory, it should be fast enough since Workshop/City of Traitors + Candelabra = infinite mana (Ancient Tomb would be too painful Wink

It's actually not because Candelabra needs to be tapped to use (it's from the old days of Mono Artifact, which means once per turn, which is eratta'ed to add a TAP to the cost).
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TopSecret
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« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2008, 11:55:22 am »

I've always wanted to build a transformational combo sideboard for stax.  I've never had one pan out very well in a real-time environment, though.  The best thing I achieved was adding 3x empty the warrens (post board) to a red/black build that sported confidants.  The memory is pretty hazy, but I recall dropping a couple moxes, a lock or two, and then emptying for 8 to a dismayed opponent.

Travis LaPlante once played such a deck.
It was Mono-black, with Workshops and Rituals game one to power out lock pieces and Trikes,
and then postboard it sided in combo tools for a huge Tendrils.
It would probably work in reverse order, too.
The only problem is that there has to be some common ground between the maindeck and the sideboard.


If you wanted a transformational sideboard for Stax, I'd suggest Oath.
Every deck is better when you sideboard in Oath.
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« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2008, 12:26:37 pm »

I tried really, really, hard to make a ITEOC/Aven Mindcensor stax deck work.  I could never get the mana right; I even cut workshops and had just Ancient Tomb/City of Traitors, but it never really came together.  Perhaps Coalition Relic was what the doctor ordered, but I'll never know.  The metagame has moved on.
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redmage419
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« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2008, 01:09:42 pm »

It's actually not because Candelabra needs to be tapped to use (it's from the old days of Mono Artifact, which means once per turn, which is eratta'ed to add a TAP to the cost).

Damn the eratta!!! Sad
It appears that a "tap" cost has been added to the Oracle text. Hmmm, I wonder if that would fall under "power level eratta" (which may be revoked someday)? It certainly explains why Candelabra hardly ever gets played.

Oh well, back to the drawing board.
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Kholdestare
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« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2008, 01:24:40 pm »

I found this guy in an aluren deck:



After some testing i realized that aluren just doesnt make it in t1.
I then tried him in a workshop-aggro shell to find welder, metalworker, duplicant, triskelion, ravager, magus of the moon and solemn simulacrum. In the sideboard i had viashino heretic and silent arbiter which could be found by the recruiter.
So far the deck works just fine.
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Wagner
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« Reply #52 on: February 08, 2008, 02:25:03 pm »

Quote
I then tried him in a workshop-aggro shell to find welder, metalworker, duplicant, triskelion, ravager, magus of the moon and solemn simulacrum. In the sideboard i had viashino heretic and silent arbiter which could be found by the recruiter.
So far the deck works just fine.

Recruiter is ok at best, it's still a 3 mana tutor. In a Shop deck, depending on the build, he's pretty much as good as a Fabricate (he gets Welder/Magus but doesn't get Chalice, Smoketack or Sphere).

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Kholdestare
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« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2008, 03:40:10 pm »

@Wagner
Recruiter is a 3 mana tutor, right. In addition he is a creature, don't underrate this fact. He can be equipped, he can go in the way of a lackey or chumpblock dryads etc.
He is a permanent and can be sacked for stack or tapped for wire. He is red, which is imo the better color for shopbuilds right now. I would rate him far higher than fabricate.
One thing i really like is his ability to find heretics in the mirror or versus Stax. Dropping one of these viashino guys early is absolutely crucial.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 03:45:16 pm by Kholdestare » Logged
Everrid1234
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« Reply #54 on: February 09, 2008, 05:31:11 am »

The point is: Recruiter is a wasted turn.

EDIT: I find it very good that you mentioned the card, its actually ok to play. I just wanted to comment. Smile
« Last Edit: February 09, 2008, 08:40:33 am by Everrid1234 » Logged
Kholdestare
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« Reply #55 on: February 09, 2008, 07:47:58 am »

@Everrid1234
Agreed. Just trying to dig up treasures here.
When playing with recruiter you have to minimize its weaknesses, e.g. searching for a guy and playing it the same turn. Wires or spheres may provide you with the needed extra time, too.
The time he shines is during topdecking wars. Playing recruiter means sacrificing some explosiveness during the early turns in favor of added flexibility later on. One has to decide for himself  which way to go, i guess.

I have a list thrown together that i like. You might want to try it out for yourself.

Mana (27)
2x Ancient Tomb
4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
6x Mountain
1x Tolarian Academy
5x Moxen
1x Black Lotus
1x Mana Vault
1x Mana Crypt
1x Sol Ring
  Creatures (18)
  4x Goblin Welder
  4x Metalworker
  4x Imperial Recruiter
  2x Solemn Simulacrum
  1x Duplicant
  1x Triskelion
  1x Arcbound Ravager
  1x Magus of the Moon
  Other (15)
  4x Tangle Wire
  4x Chalice of the Void
  4x Thorn of Amethyst
  1x Trinisphere

  2x Sword of Fire and Ice
  Sideboard (15)
  1x Duplicant
  1x Silent Arbiter
  1x Triskelion
  3x Viashino Heretic
  3x Tormod's Crypt
  3x Red Elemental Blast
  3x Sphere of Resistance
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Everrid1234
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« Reply #56 on: February 09, 2008, 01:57:30 pm »

Nice and maybe playable cards which are not often seen (some are more popular, ok), maybe someone has ideas what to do with them:

-Drop of Honey
-Porphyry Nodes (Drop of Honey in White, nice illustration btw)
-Rootwater Thief
-Dominating Licid
-The Abyss
-Magus of the Unseen
-Sharazad
-Siren's Call
-Coffin Queen
-Norritt
-Nightscape Familiar for U/R-Based Combo-Deccks maybe



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ChemEng
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« Reply #57 on: February 09, 2008, 02:42:03 pm »

I would love to see Chains of Mephistopheles get some more action.
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Burntgerbil
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« Reply #58 on: February 09, 2008, 02:58:41 pm »

Everrid - Shahrazad is banned in legacy and vintage now.

I tried hard too, to break that card - but I never quite could.
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TopSecret
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« Reply #59 on: February 09, 2008, 04:57:22 pm »


Recruiter is ok at best, it's still a 3 mana tutor. In a Shop deck, depending on the build, he's pretty much as good as a Fabricate (he gets Welder/Magus but doesn't get Chalice, Smoketack or Sphere).



Imperial Recruiter can search for another Imperial Recruiter, allowing you to chump block a few times or play four 1/1's for twelve mana.
It also taps to Tangle Wire and avoids Thorn.
Given, that still doesn't make it all that much better than Fabricate.
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