[Discussion] Mono R Shop or MUD

[Red Irish]

Factory + SOFI/Jitte and a Gargadon = win vs oath.  As long as you can swing a couple of times with the factory you'll win for sure once the Gargadon come out.  Remember that it has haste when it comes into play from suspension.

I'm not sure that you will "win for sure", but clearly in this situation the Oath player will be in serious difficulties. However, you name at least 3 different cards, actually 4 if we count red mana. How often will you be able to set up this situation before your opponent activates the Oath? Spawning Pit, providing you can ensure that it stays on the table by playing a sufficient number of spheres, prevents the Oath from activating and allows you to attack with an increasing number of 2/2's each turn: even if the opponent stops providing you with tokens you can play and sac' your own creatures. I simply think that the Pit is a better solution.

[Bill Copes]

*I'm posting this list here because I used Haunted's list as a starting point -- the deck is not mono  but might as well be. I feel like I have to share, although no one is usually interested.*

I just made a top 4 split at ELD's Lotus tournament with this:

4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Volcanic Island
4 Shivan Reef
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Smokestack
3 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds
2 Jester's Cap
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Trinisphere

3 Stifle
3 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker

4 Goblin Welder
2 Duplicant
2 Triskelion
1 Sundering Titan

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Greater Gargadon
3 Pyroclasm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Duplicant
1 Triskelion
1 Jester's Cap

To further preface things before I start saying things no one will pay attention to; until now, I haven't done well at a tournament since November.  Since the unrestriction of Gush, the printing of Goyf and the advent of Tyrant Oath, I had not been able to successfully adapt to the format.  I think one of the problems I was (and probably still am) having was that I was either trying bad rogue ideas (Cabal Therapy + Myr Retriever), or using methods that currently do very little against the current meta (mana denial through strips and multiple spheres, while trying to win with juggernauts).

I saw Haunted's deck and adored the idea of maindeck red blasts, given that unless you're playing against goblins or shops, you're effectively hating against every deck in the format.  I felt that the deck lacked the little bit of explosiveness that ancestral and tinker can offer, so I splashed blue for those.  I'm not sure where the idea came from, but given that so many of the win conditions in today's environment rely on a triggered ability, I felt that being able to outright stop it, as opposed to preventing the opponent from playing spells, was somehow a pretty good idea.

The morning of the tournament, I picked up BC and Grand Inquisitor (Team Copes!  Woo!) and we discussed card choices and whatnot on the car ride down.  BC told me he was running Uba Stax, and that he wasn't using spheres!  Initially, I thought the idea sounded crazy.  So crazy, that I figured I'd try it as well.  My goldfish brain started to recount how numerous matches from the past couple of months played out and realized that unless you had 2-3 spheres down with the opponent doing nothing in response, they really weren't cutting the mustard.

He convinced me to run smokestacks; a card I have abandoned since it seemed way too slow in December.

I'm rambling and not getting anywhere, so in order to cut this short:  Rebs and Stifles act effectively as Spheres/Thorns, while smokestack, tangle wire and chalice provide a lock.

The effect of stifle throughout the day was astounding.

Here's a list of cards/effects that were thwarted throughout the day:

• Goblin Ringleader
• Goblin Matron
• Fetchlands
• Smokestack
• Wasteland

It seems like a short list, but it was varied across 5 matches (Goblins, Gush-Tendrils, Mono R Shop Aggro, Flash, Tyrant Oath), effectively hitting key components in each.

I ended up going 4-0-2(IDs) in the swiss, eventually beating Tyrant Oath in the Top 8, before the split.  I only lost 3 games throughout the day (Gush-Tendrils, Flash, Tyrant Oath).

One match I should have lost, but won due to an opponent play error was the flash matchup.  I almost wish it didn't count.  This match requires further testing, but in theory, the deck should have as good a chance as any against it.  Well, maybe not AS good, but better than most shop decks.

So, the point of all of this blubbering is that I think in order for shops to compete in the current environment, they need to be able to combine both proactive and reactive disruption to smother the opponent.  Not just throwing down some spheres and hoping to win before the opponent does.  You have to stop draw spells, fetches, random triggered abilities.  Have you ever Reb'd a gush?  It feels so dirty and unfair.  A great majority of the time, the opponent won't even be able to gush, since your stifles, wastes and stax can often keep them off the 2 island requirement.

Am I saying that Spheres are terrible?  No!  I love them much and big, like Russia.  I just think that people expect them and know how to play around them.  You hit people with surprises, you put them on tilt, you win.

Another brief note before I shut up:  Greater Gargadon is AMAZING.  You all know why already.  I'll have to send Mr. Gargadon an edible arrangement for his efforts.

[waywreth]

Posted by: AbdullahTheButcher 
*I'm posting this list here because I used Haunted's list as a starting point -- the deck is not mono   but might as well be. I feel like I have to share, although no one is usually interested.*
I just made a top 4 split at ELD's Lotus tournament with this:

I'd have to totally agree with you on your discussion of spheres.  I played Mono-R workshop aggro at the tourney, and noticed that having 1 or even 2 Spheres/Thorns was ineffective at slowing down most of the decks I played.  I love the idea of using stifle - that would've been far more useful in my matchups as well.

As a note, I went 3-3 (although my flash opponent conceded to me in the final round as he didn't want to play).  I easily beat GAT, and a hybrid black/white rogue deck, and lost to the mirror, 2 land belcher (should've won this matchup), and took Tyrant blue/oath to game 3.

Your T8 match was fun to watch - Greater Gargadon was truely the MVP.
As a note - why no timewalk, and how were the crucibles treating you the whole day?  They were huge in the T8 match I saw with recurring wasteland.

[Bill Copes]

As a note - why no timewalk, and how were the crucibles treating you the whole day?  They were huge in the T8 match I saw with recurring wasteland.

Crucible was pretty necessary throughout the day, mainly because of the smokestacks.  Recurring wastes/strip was a normal added bonus.  I think at one point my tyrant oath opponent was thinking about brain freezing me to some non-lethal degree, counting storm as he played spells, then somewhere realizing that with a crucible on the board, and that not winning the game for him, it would probably be a bad idea.  Mind you he was short on mana during the whole game by account of stifles and smokestack.  Then again, I could probably have read him entirely wrong.

I like time walk.  I like it a lot.  But it's not here for 2 reasons:  1) I couldn't find room.  2) It sucks with tangle wires on the board.  Note that it is excellent with smokestack, because it often gives you the turn you need to ramp it to "lethal."

The top 8 match was actually somewhat retarded.  Barring game 2, I somehow had every card in hand I needed at the right time.  I could feel the dismay coming from the other side of the table.  I very much felt like the underdog in that match, because Tyrant Oath is so resilient and busted -- it can work it's way out of almost any situation.  I don't think this deck can truly hang with flash, as none can.  However, based on its performance against a HIGHLY talented player, I do feel that it can give Tyrant decks a run for their money.

[hauntedechos]

@ Abdullah:  thanks for the credit, in terms of a starting list.  I'm happy to see that the list you've come up with provided you with good results.  I've decided to take your list as a starting point to looking into what Shop decks can do to keep in the game.  I see the point you make of dropping sphere effects in favour of one shot answers.  For sure I see the viability of Stack and tangle wires to provide a lock as you go abouts your game.  I'm very interested in your ideas and lists and would greatly like to have a PM from you in terms of reasonings, testing gauntlets and in depth commentary on what you feel was the strengths and weaknesses of the list you ran.

again thanks for the credit for a starting point, I know it's not my work that got you there, but it would be great to see how we could possibly collaborate and continue to try and keep this arch type in play.

Haunted.

[Red Irish]

Hello all,

that seems like a really interesting list and on face value appears to lie somewhere in the middle ground between Slaver and Stax/Mud builds. I agree that "9 spheres" may not be enjoying its best moment, which is probably due to the fact that GAT has been replaced by Oath/Flash as the dominant control decks (at least that is my impression on the basis of the recent tournament results that have been posted).

I am tempted to ask whether or not it would be more fruitful to simply wholeheartedly commit to Slaver; however, given that the deck has already proved its worth in a tournament and assuming that we can not simple attribute this to the "surprise factor", I think that would be unfair as this build should at the very least be explored as a potential archetype. Nevertheless, I do have to ask why Karn has not been included.

Engineered Explosives seems perfect in this deck.

Congratulations on your performance. It is nice to see some innovation in the format.

I have a tournament coming up on Saturday and I’ll be taking along my faithful “nine spheres”, although with a few recent tweaks – wish me luck, I’ll keep you all posted.

Cheers

[hauntedechos]

The inclusion of  was something that a friend of mine were discussing on the back of Stifle and Thirst as a draw engine.  Stifle is a great meta call, however the inclusion of  does require refinement and thusly, 9 spheres are not auto includes.  Thirst with the obvious welder synergy does remind us of Slaver, yet the archtype is too slow, unless modified to combat the current "flash" meta.  We should include the use of  into this thread, how does the community feel?

Haunted.

[Red Irish]

Hi Haunted,

I think we need to be careful as there is a case for considering MUD and Mono-Red Shop in separate posts, before we even bring Slaver into the equation. That said, I think that the post would be enriched by considering other colour splashes, even if we may appear to be veering into discussion of other archetypes. After all, there are quite a few Aggro Shop builds that splash  .

Cheers

[hauntedechos]

Certainly I don't want to see/hear Slaver talk in this thread as it's not related to the thread.  I was just tossing in the idea of  and  together.  Of course, the use of  would compliment the prison aspect of Shop and I think we should explore that too.  Clearly Shop cannot sufficiently impact the current meta as a Mono.

So let's continue on shall we.

Haunted.

[Red Irish]

Hi all,

I have been fiddling with my list recently and I have come up with the following:

2 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
5 Mountain

5 Moxes
1 Lotus
1 Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Crypt
1 Chromatic Star


4 Goblin Welder
3 Arcbound Ravager
4 Juggernaut
4 Solemn Simulacrum
1 Karn, Silver Golum
2 Triskelion


3 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
3 Tangle Wire

I have included Karn as he allows me to attack the opponent’s mana base and sits well with the aggressive strategy of a deck that employs a number of non-creature artefacts, particularly Tangle Wire. He also allows me to remove Bridge from Below by converting my own moxes and avoid Vault suicide.

I will miss the Razormane Masticores against aggro builds but I think that Karn is more versatile.

However, I really wanted to focus on the inclusion of another card: Chromatic Star. Do we really need to run 6 mountains? I accept that builds that run Magus of the Moon and/or Gorilla Shaman in the main deck require more access to red mana, but do I really need to run 6 mountains given Simulacrum’s fetch capabilities? Running 5 mountains seems to be more than sufficient for the purposes of playing Welder/the Sideboard and limiting the scope of Wasteland attack. I very briefly tested the inclusion of the Star the other day and it enabled a lot of draw when I started interchanging Star/Simulacrum with a Welder. Moreover, the Star seems to be perfectly suited to a deck that runs 3 Ravagers. Indeed, Workshop, followed by Star, Thorn and Welder seems like a perfect opening; however, I have envisaged a couple of disadvantages:

Star, unlike a mountain, is affected by my spheres and obviously is no longer around subsequent to sacrifice, which could prove telling once Tangle Wire is in play. The Star’s ability to activate is affected by Null Rod, although Welder/draw possibilities would be unaffected.

So, what do you think? Have I potentially weakened a perfectly good mana base or have I nominally improved the decks draw potential without causing any significant detrimental effects?

[hauntedechos]

@ Red Irish:  What is your sb plan like?  As a secondary question, how is you TSOath match up ?


Haunted.

[Red Irish]

Hi Haunted,

the current board is as follows:

3 Magus of the Moon
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Viashino Heretic
1 Rack and Ruin
3 Pyroclasm
3 Spawning Pit

Oath is always going to be a difficult match, but I am unwilling to remove other sideboard slots to accomodate further Oath-specific hate as this would limit my ability to deal with other archetypes - to have a chance at winning a tournament you first have to enter the Top 8 and there are a number of other decks that can cause our builds a lot of problems (Fish with Kataki, Null Rod and Stormscape Apprentice to name but one). I tested Jester's Cap the other day and it seemed a little slow; however, on the positive side, it is more versatile as it can attack other archetypes. Nevertheless, I am going to persevere with Spawining Pit as I think its the best answer. Perhaps the -1 counter theme in Shadowmoor will provide other possibilities, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Cheers

[hauntedechos]

I agree that spawning pit is a great answer to Oath.  The key of course is locking them down whilst chewing the tokens so that you can actually put a body down, OR you can send a whack of  2/2 creatures at them, chewing them at EOT.

To convey a statement from my friend and testing partner.  "I don't mind answers like E.Plagues or Spawning pit, they just allow me to use my orchards as rainbow lands untill I'm ready to remove their threat and win".  Now I'm not saying he's right or wrong in viewing things this way, however it is something to be aware of when playing Oath pilots.  This detail never crossed my mind while play testing and he never told me this, untill I picked up Tropical Storm again.

In my mind, Flash and TSOath are the toughest matches we have right now (off the top of my head and w/o delving into lower tier decks).  The point of Fish with Null Rods and Kataki is noted, however it doesn't seem much more scary than GAT with four E.Flux from the side.  On the upswing, our robots are bigger and Fish decks are looking into this as we speak - well because of our robots and Goyfs.

So what are we looking to do versus Flash?  After reading in the adept chronicles section on the Flash issue, there is a statement that summed up states:  A shop deck ran leylines, crypts and pithing needles and STILL lost horribly...ouch.  Should we sit down and say "well ok then it's the one match up that I'm prepared to just lose to", that doesn't seem smart as Flash is on the Rise, meaning that it will be the match up that turns you into an ornithopter at tournaments.  We do have mana denial tools which are great, however they require a turn =( is there anything that we can do on turn zero besides leyline of the void?

Ponder this.

Haunted.

[Bill Copes]

Turn 0 answers for flash are pretty sparse for a shop deck.

Simian Spirit Guide + Reb/Pyroblast is the only thing that comes to mind for things you can cast at instant speed, without having a turn.  Mulling into that seems pretty suboptimal, though.

[Thicketman]

is there anything that we can do on turn zero besides leyline of the void?

if we splash blue, we can play Force of Wills. That's all i can think of.

[Bill Copes]

One of these days I'll play a blue shop deck in a tournament.  Here's how I see it on paper, thus far:

8 Moxes / Sol Ring / Lotus / Crypt-or-Petal
7 Islands
4 Shops
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Tangle Wire
3 Smokestack
2 Crucible of Worlds

4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Thirst For Knowledge
2 Mana Drain // Misdirection // Spell Snare // Trickbind
2 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timewalk
1 Tinker

3 Duplicant
2 Sundering Titan

Probably pretty bad, but worth trying out for giggles.  You can't really fit welders (the only real excuse to play red) in this because you need to uphold the blue count for force. . . unless you cut some locks.  If you're doing that, you might as well play slaver.  I'd love to try to get a hybrid to work, though.

[Red Irish]

I don't think there is a viable response for Turn 0 Flash. Any thoughts on Chromatic Star?

[Bill Copes]

To me the idea of star seems kind of mediocre.  I know it fixes mana and draws a card, but if you're having trouble casting it once you get a few spheres down (as we all know, is the decks main game plan), then I don't really see it as being worth the trouble.  Of course, additional combos with the ravagers are nice, but again, it's the inclusion of 1 card that merely replaces itself when it hits the yard.  You could run a bazaar of baghdad or something of that ilk instead.  I'd even run a 4th sword over the star.  The lack of one mountain in a deck that easily fetches out mountains seems okay to me -- every time I've thrown this type of deck together to try it, I've found that I got mana flooded more often than not.  25 sources seems right.

[Thicketman]

When I first read this thread, I was playin Mono Red Shop. After fine tuning the deck as tight as I feel it can go, I have decided to take a more serious look at MUD as a new Workshop adventure for me. Testing out various MUD builds, the original question of this thread has come up. "Mono Red or MUD?" They are both so different and I can't decide. MUD is so much more explosive, but more vulnerable.
    This thread has come a long way, but I don't feel that we have covered the pros and cons well enough. I would like to hear some more insight into this thread's original question.
I love them both and am having a really hard time deciding.

[Thicketman]

Now that I have bee testing MUD, I have come up with a problem that I need a solution for and can not figure it out. With Mono  I have no problem with Null Rod, but what can I do to get rid of Null Rod in MUD? I'm not aware of any artifacts that destroy artifacts, at least not without activating or triggering. The only think I can think of is smokestacks, but that can take a long time. Any help would be great thanks.

[Bill Copes]

Now that I have bee testing MUD, I have come up with a problem that I need a solution for and can not figure it out. With Mono  I have no problem with Null Rod, but what can I do to get rid of Null Rod in MUD? I'm not aware of any artifacts that destroy artifacts, at least not without activating or triggering. The only think I can think of is smokestacks, but that can take a long time. Any help would be great thanks.

I once posed this question to Dan Cunningham.  His answer, Plague Boiler.  Of course, it has the problem of blowing up everything.

My answer to Null Rod over the past 2 years of vintage hasn't been based on card choice, but rather, deck choice.  If I expect to see any Null Rods, I'll play a shop deck that isn't effected by them (or ones that even incorporate them into the game plan -- here's a pile that I top 8'd with:  http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=8509).

So, in essence, I think you answered your own question -- If Null Rods are going to be present, run Mono  .  If not, then bust some faces with Mud.

The only other suggestion I could make is maybe figuring out a way to splash a color (white?), post board.  This of course has it's own set of downfalls and should probably be avoided at all costs, but I have at least suggest it.

[Thicketman]

Now that I have bee testing MUD, I have come up with a problem that I need a solution for and can not figure it out. With Mono  I have no problem with Null Rod, but what can I do to get rid of Null Rod in MUD? I'm not aware of any artifacts that destroy artifacts, at least not without activating or triggering. The only think I can think of is smokestacks, but that can take a long time. Any help would be great thanks.

I once posed this question to Dan Cunningham.  His answer, Plague Boiler.  Of course, it has the problem of blowing up everything.

My answer to Null Rod over the past 2 years of vintage hasn't been based on card choice, but rather, deck choice.  If I expect to see any Null Rods, I'll play a shop deck that isn't effected by them (or ones that even incorporate them into the game plan -- here's a pile that I top 8'd with:  http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=8509).

So, in essence, I think you answered your own question -- If Null Rods are going to be present, run Mono  .  If not, then bust some faces with Mud.

The only other suggestion I could make is maybe figuring out a way to splash a color (white?), post board.  This of course has it's own set of downfalls and should probably be avoided at all costs, but I have at least suggest it.

Thanks man. You helped a lot. I guess if I see Null Rods popping up, I'll just stay away from straight brown unless Plague Boiler can work out. At least I know  Shop works. That pile is pretty interesting as well. It could probably be updated and work out well.

[madmanmike25]

but what can I do to get rid of Null Rod in MUD?

Culling Scales and a little patience. 

But seriously, there is no other way for MUD to get rid of Null Rod unless you just add in some beef.  Decks that play with Rod usually run smaller creatures.

[hauntedechos]

Given current tourney results it would appear that TSOath is still our number one factor.  Given that we cannot beat Flash up, I think that it is in our best interest to keep concentration on the Oath arch type.  I feel that given the current meta, Mono  is the way to go.  I do think that there is room for a  build or even a meta built mono  form of Shop, this is something that can be debated and talked about, however we would do well to keep the roots of Shop in focus when deliberating on how well  can shore up weak aspects to the deck. 

As far as I can see there is a triangle in the current meta: Flash, TSOath and Shop, with new school Long builds lurking to take advantage of the situation.  Let's discuss our role within the triangle and speak on how we would best position ourselves within the current meta.  Position would consider main selections and SB options given current tourny results in contrast to what our local metas appear to be.

Haunted.

[Red Irish]

Given current tourney results it would appear that TSOath is still our number one factor.  Given that we cannot beat Flash up, I think that it is in our best interest to keep concentration on the Oath arch type.  I feel that given the current meta, Mono  is the way to go.

Hi Haunted,

I'm not sure that mono  has a better match up against Oath. After all,  builds normally don't run Chalice of the Void, and Oath slips out of Sphere/Tangle Wire locks with unnerving regularity. In contrast, MUD players at least have the option of playing a Chalice set at two before boarding in additional hate. Moreover, mono  builds normally don’t run Mishra's Factory, which, in conjunction with Sword of Fire and Ice, is becoming increasingly relevant in the current metagame.

I think that, in general, 9 Spheres are no longer enough to lock an opponent out of the game. So it seems that we are forced to increase the number of lock pieces in the deck:

Magus of the Moon: he still has a place in my board, but as GAT's presence decreases so too does his importance.
Tangle Wire: I think that this card is essential. I haven't tested Winter Orb or Orb of Dreams, but I think Wire would get my vote anyway, despite the fact that the Orb of Dreams is more relevant subsequent to Oath activation.

However, apart from including 3 Tangle Wires in the main, I think we need to take a more proactive approach to preventing the opponent from playing spells: we need to enhance our ability to directly attack the mana base whilst incrementing the cost of each spell. This can be achieved via Gorilla Shaman and Karn. I already run Karn in my deck, but I think that a space has to be found for a Gorilla Shaman as well. Why do I prefer this combination over cutting Karn and running two Shamans? Well, I always advocate threat diversity and, although I'm no mathematician, I'm not sure that we have a higher possibility of playing a Gorilla before Karn, given the shortage of  mana. Of course, Karn also has other uses. However, with its Metalworkers, City of Traitors and full compliment of Ancient Tombs, MUD runs Karn and additional lock pieces with greater ease.

Spawning Pit, Goblin Bombardment and Gargadon buy time, but they don't provide a definitive answer. I recently tried Spawning Pit and it could work providing if you manage to equip a Sword of Fire and Ice, but without Mishra's Factory, absent in most recent  builds, it's simply too slow. I think that Jester's Cap is the route forward, indeed, there's a strong case for running a couple of these in the main in view of the current meta. However, MUD, running Karn in the main and boasting more explosive mana acceleration, is, once again, better equipped to do this.

I think that MUD has a better match up against Oath on the whole. Aggro Shop may have disuaded more than a few from choosing a GAT deck and has pushed traditional Stax builds into the background, but I think that this deck, and our little red friend, are finding it increasingly difficult to make an impact on the current meta. 

Should we be running red at all?

I don't know. There are obvious advantages, although I'm not sure that they entirely relevant to an Oath heavy meta.

Cheers

[hauntedechos]

Thanks for your input Irish.

I suppose my bias towards Mono  comes from the fact that when I was building it, I built it to suit a personal Meta which has a Shay style list of TSOath.  My list is somewhat hybrid in that it includes both four Factories and four Wastes in addition to the lone strip.  As well I have Crucibles and  tanglewires over the Magus or moon effects as a whole.  Perhalps a list should be given here for greater discussion, as I feel that the inclusion of  is something that we cannot afford to lose.


Haunted Shop  v.4

4Shops
4Factories
4Waste
1Strip
2City of Traitors
6Mountains
5Moxen
1Black lotus
1lotus petal
1Sol Ring...29

4Sphere
4Thorn
1Trinisphere
4Tanglewire
2Crucible of Worlds
4REB
4Welders
4Juggernaught
4SOFI...31

Now this is a rough sketch of it, I've made changes, but given that the deck is not right in front of me at the moment, here is what we have.  Now to look at things, I have REB main and with nine sources of  at my disposal, I've never had an issue with having it up when I need it (just ask my wife...err wait, scratch that).  I agree with you that threat diversity as well as density is needed, hence why I roll with the Tangle Wires, Crucible, Waste/Strip, 9shperes.  Further, as a result of my meta, having a traditional  Shop deck left me with many cards that were a liability (doods), so I took most out for lock pieces and maxed out my land configuration to include Factories to beat under the radar (just ignore that one too please).    Allows me flexibility and increased answers from the SB, and a better MUD matchup.  REB main means that game one I have an answer to the Tyrant, and yes it's perfectly probable that you will hold  up for a blast as you still have more than enough colourless to go abouts your business.

Now I wanted to touch on my thoughts on Chalice.  I used to run them, however they've been taken out as they hurt me too.  Chalice at two is terrible as it locks me off spheres.  At one I lose welder and REB, at zero I lose acceleration.  Something to remember is that they have Show and Tell to circumvent chalice at two, it's happened all to often to me.  I agree that Oath gets out of spheres, and so a lock on them is something very desirable.  I would consider Chalices from the side again, but not main. 

I would  go on a limb to say that Spawning PItt has just won me the games in conjunction with E.Explosives from the board.  Two explosives and an active welder is some good against Oath and the spawning pitt tends to get me there as well.  Again it's my thought that the use of  is something that cannot be given up in this meta, even if nothing more than the use of REB.

Haunted.

[Thicketman]

Haunted,

 I feel that using 4 factories and 4 wastelands as well as not running simulacrums is seriously gimping your mana base. Also, i fear that not running triskelion is a big mistake. Every Workshop deck should run triskelion as it is not only a big beater, but it can shoot threats as well as kill itself and your own creatures if needed (oath). I agree with you 100% about the chalice. Chalice should never be run in Red shop, it gimps you too much. Chalice is only for MUD in my opinion. Make room for 4 simulicrum and 4 triskelion and either remove 2 wasteland or 2 factories, or 1 of each and add in 2 ancient tombs and i think you should have more mana consistancy and a stronger deck in general.

[Harlequin]

I think you're crazy if you don't run maindeck caps right now.  I would say 2 at least, and ideally 3 maindeck.  Cap is a win condition against the two best decks in the meta (TSOath and Flash).  Tangle or Ball on turn 1, into a turn 2 cap into a turn 3 activation is your best bet against either of these decks (of course with all the accelleration a turn 1 cap into a turn 2 activation is definately possible). 

[madmanmike25]

For fun I did a search for "Oath" on this page alone, it pops up quite a bit.

Instead of discussing the best version of Aggro (MUD or mono-red), do you think it's probably time to put the Juggernauts away and bring back Smokestack???  I do.  Christ, let people play with Walls again damnit!

Chalice is only for MUD in my opinion.

I would highly disagree with that.  Mono-red/UbaStax builds have had great success running Chalice.  It doesn't sit there looking worthless when your opponent just plays another land and casts his spell through your Sphere of Resistance.  In combination with Smokestack, Tangles, Chalice, and Crucible+Waste locks Sphere is great.  Chalice is also a hard lock and you have the same potential to cast CotV@2 as Mox+Orchard->Oath.

Someone should tell Yespuhyren to bring the Jester back. 

p.s.  If you didn't get the memo, Shop Aggro may be on its way out.  But if you insist, why not build a R/G Shop deck with Goyfs and Seal of Primordium(for Oath)?

I'll post my current Stax build soon.

Mike

[hauntedechos]

Oh I got the memo, and multiple copies of it.  I was offering my thoughts on MUD vs.  .  I do agree that Jesters Cap is a great card that should be in the main, what I posted was a list that I left to pursue TTS.  It was by no means a completed and final list, as I was constantly changing it after every session of test plays.  Given the current meta, I agree that the lists would have to be seriously looked at.  With Oath pushing Shop decks out of the way by enlarge, I think that Stax will make it's big comeback as the meta seems to shift towards light mana bases and a combo-ish attitude.

In terms of the mana base as it stands, I've never been left high and dry for casting artifacts etc.  The list really looks to stall the game, drop juggernaught and win in 4, while tangle wire and friends have the opponent locked up.  With early Factory beats, it's never been an issue for me vs. Oath.  On the other hand, like I said, it's less than optimal, as I was trying to make somewhat of a hybrid, thusly many cards were left unexplored and much improvement can be made.

I don't personally intend on playing Shop or MuD or Stax now that I can run with my TTS again, a la Shop decks drifting out.  I was just trying to keep involved with the thread and support those that do wish to keep going.

Haunted.