[Deck] Goblin Sligh 2K8

[Vegeta2711]

Goblin Vandal is complete garbage, just an FYI for everybody. He wasn't worth playing when Stax and MWS aggro were the top decks and he isn't that hot now. The problem is all the other one drops you play actually do things that are more relevant than the Vandal ability in many matches. Like, I'd place him behind Lackey, Prospector, Fanatic and possibly even Frenzied Goblin in the 'grand scheme' and I can barely fit more than eight 1-drops in the deck in the first place.

[Thicketman]

Goblin Vandal is complete garbage, just an FYI for everybody. He wasn't worth playing when Stax and MWS aggro were the top decks and he isn't that hot now. The problem is all the other one drops you play actually do things that are more relevant than the Vandal ability in many matches. Like, I'd place him behind Lackey, Prospector, Fanatic and possibly even Frenzied Goblin in the 'grand scheme' and I can barely fit more than eight 1-drops in the deck in the first place.

I agree. Vandal sucks! he's just not quick enough. I need instant gratification, and Vandal doesn't deliver.

[chief]

Wow...a lot has been going on here since last I participated.  I have admittedly read only half of the thread in between, skimming the other half, so forgive me if i cover ground that has already been discussed.

First off, your opponents manabases are going to be getting stronger, not weaker.  Shops will not be a huge metagame presence most likely.  Drop the idea of attacking your opponents artifact mana, it just isn't worth it.  I feel that red/black is still the way to go with the gobs, and I feel that the deck needs to play as goblins traditionally has- by simply being faster and more consistent than its opponent. Aether vial is back in the lists that I'm testing.  Leylines are absent. Chalice is absent. Null rod is absent. Same with shusher.  The only straight disruption card that is even still a contender is extirpate.  From my previous lists the maulers are missing, as are the skirk prospectors.  I've got two stingscourgers in the main.  I've even been checking out gargs as a possible maindeck option.

To anyone douibting vial- this card does everything goblins wants to do. It cheats.  The only reason that I could justify cutting it before was that the format had simply grown too fast for the card to be effective. The new restrictions eliminate that problem.  Vial does all sorts of neat tricks, like instant speed stingscourger, uncounterable dudes that you don't have to commit until after your opponent has pyroclasm'd (yes that card will be around...) multi-threating, beating prison in the face even more than gobs already do...the thing is just nuts.  I'm still in the testing phase, but I'm pretty sure right now that this old favorite is earning its wage again.

[nero angelo]

I'm thinking just the same. Cutting Leylines for Vials...

If shop decks became sooooo popular, I'm replacing my 2x Mauler and 2x Prospector w/ 4x Vandal. (I know, you said it sucks, but it gives us a little edge against a steel army...)

But for me, I will not remove Leyline from my deck. It shoudl find it's way to sideboard.


@you guys that will use Vials:

Are you including Wastelands and Stripmines in maindecks now that Vials are back?

[chief]

I am indeed taking another look at strip effects.

[Mantis]

Goblin Vandal might suck, and perhaps it should be replaced.
Vials are awful, I seriously fail to see what good would come out of them. Yes, they do dodge Drain but you are going to have to play Goblins out of your hand otherwise your clock is WAY too slow and the Drain player will beat you anyway. Vials are not necessary to beat Stax, Hooligan and Tinkerer + all of the permanents you run make it an easy matchup.

Right now the manabases of people do in fact suck, so we can take advantage of that right now. Perhaps in the long run people will get adjusted to not having Brainstorm and build their manabases better but for know, mana denial is golden.

[Thicketman]

I have to say that vial is not awful at all. You can play creatures on your opponent's turn and play creatures if they destroy your mana base and they are uncounterable.

[Mantis]

Okay, perhaps awful was a bit out of line here, apologies for my choice of words. But I do feel they are not necessary. In the past I tested Goblins against Bomberman (with Mana Drain) quite a lot and Vial did not do anything to stop them, it just slowed me down enough for him to kill me so he did not even need Mana Drain. But anyway, I am not close minded at all so if it does become successful I will adopt it's conclusion anyway.

[Vegeta2711]

You way overestimate how fast other decks are, even pre-brainstorm.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@mantis
I would really have to disagree with your statement about people running mana bases that "suck". I've done a lot of testing with many different shop variants, and found that they are really actually very bad. the sphere effects and wastes are just no good, because people are infact running very strong mana bases with a lot of basics. The restriction of brainstrom means that people now have to run a higher demonstration of land without the cosistant +3 vision to find it. the restriction of gush means you can not lands cheat the gap between 2 lands and 3 via gush.

on the subject of goblin vandal, like I had mentioned above, shop is not very strong, so i wouldn't use it as a justification to run vandal, and the mox eating is probably suboptimal considering the strong mana bases people are running.

My testing with goblins is pretty limited right now, but I'm definitely currently running vial because of the speed boost it offers, and the presents of drain. If my threat density seems low, it'll be the 1st thing to go.

[Mantis]

You way overestimate how fast other decks are, even pre-brainstorm.

If I would overestimate how fast decks are I wouldn't run a slow deck like Goblins so I don't really see your point here. I still think Vial is bad, because I'd rather just play a Goblin that helps me disrupt the opponent or deal damage. I don't find it necessary to beat Stax or Drain.

@mantis
I would really have to disagree with your statement about people running mana bases that "suck". I've done a lot of testing with many different shop variants, and found that they are really actually very bad. the sphere effects and wastes are just no good, because people are infact running very strong mana bases with a lot of basics. The restriction of brainstrom means that people now have to run a higher demonstration of land without the cosistant +3 vision to find it. the restriction of gush means you can not lands cheat the gap between 2 lands and 3 via gush.

on the subject of goblin vandal, like I had mentioned above, shop is not very strong, so i wouldn't use it as a justification to run vandal, and the mox eating is probably suboptimal considering the strong mana bases people are running.

My testing with goblins is pretty limited right now, but I'm definitely currently running vial because of the speed boost it offers, and the presents of drain. If my threat density seems low, it'll be the 1st thing to go.

I forfeit my point about Vandal, actually I am testing without Vandal for quite some time and the overwhemingly negative response here leads me to believe I am right by doing so.

How does Vial offer a speed boost? I can only see it slowing you down, I mean your first turn drop comes a turn later and Goblins only has 4 Piledrivers they want to Vial in at 2, which you play on turn 2 anyway. Then at 3 it's decent, so I have to wait until turn 4 before it starts getting good? That doesn't sound fast to me in a format where turn 2 and 3 kills are not uncommon. Also, every copy of Vial drawn in the lategame is unwanted and you would rather have drawn a Goblin here. I just don't see it winning any games you wouldn't win if Vial was another Goblin where I imagine games where you win because of that Goblin not being Vial. But perhaps I'm biased because with Tinkerer, 4 Hooligans and 5 Strip effects my WS matchup is so good.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

The thing I have found with vial, is that it allows you to drop more dudes than you'd be able to with out it. Sometimes you need to lay down goblin A, then lackey in goblin B, then next turn play goblin C. The vial allows you to vial out goblin C, the same turn as the others. So i guess my speed coment is confusing in the way that it doesn't excellerate turns 1 and 2 (where lackey is always a better play), but turns 2 and 3. I can see that turn 1 you idealy play your 1 coster, and turn 2 your 2 costers ect., but often it doesn't work out so nicely. Also, If you can cast vial turn 1 off mox or ssg, I'd make the play. Also, I would agree that it is not necessary to beat shop, but beating control is always something you will have to do. Making sure your ringleader or pile driver resolves seems good. It also offers you some nearly completely protected lines of play to deliver a threat: vial out sting scourger on goyf swing with lackey put in *b35t g06l1n 3v4r!*

[Vegeta2711]

If I would overestimate how fast decks are I wouldn't run a slow deck like Goblins so I don't really see your point here.

That doesn't sound fast to me in a format where turn 2 and 3 kills are not uncommon.

Let me try to lay it out in simpler terms. If turn 2/3 kills were common enough from the majority of decks, you'd be rather foolish to play Goblins in the first place. Hence why the deck wasn't very good a scant month or two ago. That's my point. Turn 2 & 3 kills are hardly common now, only storm combo / Belcher can reliably t3 kill you, no control deck except Oath can really combo you out that early. If the format was really that fast, then you shouldn't be playing goblins. Hence half your Vial point seems moot.

How does Vial offer a speed boost?

T1: Lay Vial (Sunk cost of 1)
T2: Activate Vial +1 mana (Total gain - 0, since it paid the sunk cost)
T3: Activate Vial + 2 mana (Total gain - 2)
etc.

Any activations after that point are basically why it was known as a better Sol Ring back when it was legal in T2 and Extended. Vial is basically just Lackey Jr.

It isn't like speed ASAP, but rather over time it'll create a cumulative mana boost that trumps pretty much every other acceleration, especially when you take into the uncounterable part of it. 

Then again looking at your last list, you don't run Ringleader, yet run Matron. Boggling.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

echoing vegeta
you should really run ringleader, it's like an ancestral recall that beats for 2 (yes, this means that the card advantage if provides is often the same or better than ancestral recall).

[nero angelo]

Okay, so what would be most people's builds now?

sorry for asking, I was not active today because of school schedule (my schedule sucks...), so I really have no idea about the meta.


Would any of these merit inclusions (not all)?

-Goblin Vandal
-Tin Street Hooligan
-Goblin Tinkerer
-Dark Confidant
-Wasteland and Stripmines
-Aether Vial

Would you remove these?
-Leyline of the Void (Or put in into SB...)
-Thorn of Amethyst/Pyrostatic Pillar (From Sideboard...)


And what do you prefer, FCG or Goblines/Dark Gobs?

[Mantis]

Ok, so perhaps we are on the same page after all. I only run one Ringleader + one Recruiter and obviously 4 Ringleader will make Vial a lot better. Therefore I think a debate on Ringleader would be much more relevant.

On nero: I prefer Rgb Goblins with 4 Hooligan and 4 Squad, with 5 Strip, no Thorn and no Vial. Leyline the sb.

EDIT: Also @ Vegeta, you state here that on turn 3 you Vial in your 2 CC Goblin but wouldn't you rather play that Goblin on turn 2? And the chances of hitting both a 2 cc Goblin (only 4 Piledrivers and you want to play your Hooligans from hand) and a Vial, while not playing the Piley on turn 2 are quite slim. Therefore your netto managain on turn 3 is likely to still be 0.

[kicks_422]

I think the bigger question here is to go for mana denial or not, because that plan delays Ringleader. It costs 4, and you'll be sacrificing Waste/Strip. Also, you probably won't be needing to reload your hand when your disruption is attached to bodies.

It's already mentioned that manabases are stronger now, but the mana denial plan also has a focus on blowing Moxen up. Can the opponent keep up with the clock that Goblins can put on the table, when the opponent has to fetch basics for fear of Wasteland, and with their Moxen becoming Lotus Petals when they get blown up by Hooligan after one use? I think that should be the focus.

Also, I think a thread title change is needed.

[nero angelo]

I think that if we would include Aether Vial, we should put back in those Wastes and Strips (Ports too, probably...).

[Vegeta2711]

Ok, so perhaps we are on the same page after all. I only run one Ringleader + one Recruiter and obviously 4 Ringleader will make Vial a lot better. Therefore I think a debate on Ringleader would be much more relevant.

On nero: I prefer Rgb Goblins with 4 Hooligan and 4 Squad, with 5 Strip, no Thorn and no Vial. Leyline the sb.

EDIT: Also @ Vegeta, you state here that on turn 3 you Vial in your 2 CC Goblin but wouldn't you rather play that Goblin on turn 2? And the chances of hitting both a 2 cc Goblin (only 4 Piledrivers and you want to play your Hooligans from hand) and a Vial, while not playing the Piley on turn 2 are quite slim. Therefore your netto managain on turn 3 is likely to still be 0.

It was an example because you said you didn't understand how Vial generated mana.

And yes, most of the time in that limited example I much rather NOT play Piledriver turn 2 where it's likely to be countered or only swing for 3 massive damage on turn 3 (i.e. nothing of relevance), if were expanding it to the obvs good hand of curving out w/o Moxen of t1 not-a-Lackey, t2 driver, t3 warchief then that's different, but otherwise I couldn't care less if Piledriver is in play or not until I at least have 3 non-Driver guys in play or I'm trying to bait a response from the opponent.. Piledriver is actually quite a terrible man, but is still run simply for the fast Lackey / Vial starts where you can crap out like 4-5 men on the board by turn 4 and end the game in one swing.