[Deck] ICBM Oath for Vintage 2.0

[Nehptis]

Wow, thanks for the update.  Very interesting changes.  Questions / Comments:

1) Daze - Thanks for the insight.  Your assessment makes sense.

2) +2 Islands - I love it... based on my previous concerns.

3) +1 Wasteland - No argument.  Definitely no less than 2 Wastes, 1 Strip. But, why did you feel the need to go to 18 lands vs. 17?

4) Moving Factories to SB - Metagame call, I guess.  Sounds good.

5) Adding Top - I did wish that the original list could include Top.  Good call.

6) Tyrant replacing Angel - Why, the decision to change?

7) Why Blessing now?

8) I do wish Crop Rotation would have stayed.  But, I see it as an obvious cut if a spot was needed.

9) I agree that Rod can be Needle also, depending on meta.

10) I think -1 Oxidize +1 Hurkyl's Recall in SB works better for me.

11) I've had some previous success with Tyrant Oath using a singleton Show and Tell.  I wonder if it can replace Tinker in this new build.  Problem is, what to cut.

Again, thanks for the updated report and I look forward to your responses.

[personalbackfire]

As I am not the decks creator I can not speak on his behalf buti will try to answer some of your questions.

The switch from Angel to Tryant probably has to do with the fact that tryant is not an artifact creature. With workshop decks and the uprising of Control Slaver welders will be running around which makes an artifact creature less stable and worse.

Since platz is now out of the deck the need for a Gaea's blessing is back in since tryants don't prevent you from losing the game while its in play.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Slaver rapes you when you play Platinum Angel.

[Nehptis]

I did some brief testing, here are my thoughts:

COTV:
I really like dropping COTV at 1 way better than at 0.  It just seems to negatively impact more strategies at 1.  It's been said before but as a reminder; Ritual, Welder, Tops (which I expect to see a lot of), Naught, STP, Duress/Seize, Chain of Vapor, etc.  The other benefit of COTV at 1 vs. 0 is that it allows me to play TCrypt in the SB over Leylines.  I hate the dead draw of Leylines 2-4.  Especially in Tyrant Oath where you probably won't have the mana to cast it to bounce something.  Conversely, TCrypt plays nice with Tyrant.

Needle vs. Rod:
Needle definitely has some game in this anticipated meta of Slaver, Ich, etc.  But, if I'm dropping COTV at 1 more often than at 0 then two things emerge.  1) Needle must be played before COTV at 1.  So it is less desirable than Rod.  COTV at 1 with Rod in play is amazing at shutting down any fast mana strategies and hits Slaver big time.

How does this affect the current list?:
So, with the above in mind I had to look at how it affects me.  I don't mind having VT, MT, Seize, Recall, BS and Ponder negated by COTV at 1.  It's a fair trade-off for the control that it provides me.  And I have TFK to draw.  However, I am less inclined to keep Chain of Vapor and Top around.  Chain can be ETruth which I prefer anyway.  Top needs to become something else.  I'm thinking of going 3 Rods instead of 2.  So, that would fill the 1 x Top spot.  I would love to include Crop Rotation.  But, it plays for 1.

The most difficult aspect of this deck and particularly this strategy of dropping COTV at 1 is my 2nd turn options.  There is so much I want to do with 2 mana.
   I could hold UU for a Drain.
   I could cast a Rod.
   I could cast COTV for 1.
   I could cast Oath.

Maybe -1 Waste + 1 Mana Crypt should be a consideration for acceleration into Turn 2.  Especially, if I'm less inclined to drop COTV at 0.  Also, MCrypt works nicely with Tyrant.

In summary potential changes after more testing:

-1 Waste
+1 TCrypt
-1 Top
+3 Rod over 2 Needle
Swap ET for COV

SB: -4 Leyline
SB: +2 Crypt +1 Needle, +1 Metagame

These choices are what makes Oath so fun and challenging to play!

[playkenny]

Long time Oath player, love the deck. I was wondering (mainly directed to AngryPheldagrif) but anyone, feel free to answer:

1. Was the main reason of "substituting" Needle for Null Rod due to the addition of top (and thus the change in mana base)? Or is it JUST due to CS/Ichy metas. Have you tried Scroll Rack over Top?

2. I am another person who plays chalice @ 1 frequently - so why chain of vapour? I have been using Rushing River (over wipe away) successfully - is the higher casting cost the only deterant? I would prefer Echoing truth but been burnt buy opposing chalice @ 2 before.

3. You have gone from 3 Platz plan to 2 Tyrant. Do you forsee going to 1 Tyrant 1 Witness/Trike (with MD Needle) and modifying accordingly?

4. Do you ever see yourself going to 2 beatdown angles ever? Or does the loss of brainstorm make you want to run easily hardcastable creatures?

5. I am currently running 2 waste, 1 strip, along with "Old Skool Life from the Loam" (and crop rotation, 2 mishras). Do you think this plan still has some merits? Or is running more land/wastes better? (note: my current land base is very close to the proposed Platz base.)

Thanks in advance peoples.

[Nehptis]

I believe this is the 1st post-restriction Oath list to win.  It has the ICBM shell.  But, some of the card choices are very interesting.  I was at this tourney and round after round I was in disbelief at how it kept winning.  Perhaps Wayne can give us a tourney report.  The differences from ICBM are:

NO BLACK:  I think this might be the key to Oath's success in the new meta.  It seems to give the deck a laser focus.
-1 Waste + Loam package to do its thing
Chalice + Rod: COTV at 1 was huge for anyone playing it ALL DAY LONG
Akroma and Razia!: I did seem him cast 1 once.  But, I think the more common play was to of course dig for the BS or even pitch them to TFK and then Blessing them back on top.
Wipe vs. Chain
Crop Rotation
No Top
Mystical and Merchant

Thoughts / Ponderings:
He either was able to drop COTV for 1 against STP or never played Fish.  I probably would have ran SSS in the board for that matchup.

The things that I'd like to know more about is what he did on his first turn.  Unless he drew into mox/lotus/sol his first turn plays were limited.  Also, I'd like to know how he avoided getting his Oath or Force Duressed away on his opponent's first turn.  He couldn't have had COTV out for 1 everytime.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36081.0

[arkmagus]

The list featured the 2 angels again.  Given a lone brainstorm and the chances of having to discard an Angel to Tfk, would the inclusion of Spirit of the Night be desireable now? I'm considering the likely situation now, with brainstorm restricted, where an angel is either stuck in hand or was pitched. Having 2 fatties left would mean retaining the 2-turn clock.

[deathdealer]

I believe this is the 1st post-restriction Oath list to win.  It has the ICBM shell.  But, some of the card choices are very interesting.  I was at this tourney and round after round I was in disbelief at how it kept winning.  Perhaps Wayne can give us a tourney report.  The differences from ICBM are:

NO BLACK:  I think this might be the key to Oath's success in the new meta.  It seems to give the deck a laser focus.
-1 Waste + Loam package to do its thing
Chalice + Rod: COTV at 1 was huge for anyone playing it ALL DAY LONG
Akroma and Razia!: I did seem him cast 1 once.  But, I think the more common play was to of course dig for the BS or even pitch them to TFK and then Blessing them back on top.
Wipe vs. Chain
Crop Rotation
No Top
Mystical and Merchant

Thoughts / Ponderings:
He either was able to drop COTV for 1 against STP or never played Fish.  I probably would have ran SSS in the board for that matchup.

The things that I'd like to know more about is what he did on his first turn.  Unless he drew into mox/lotus/sol his first turn plays were limited.  Also, I'd like to know how he avoided getting his Oath or Force Duressed away on his opponent's first turn.  He couldn't have had COTV out for 1 everytime.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36081.0

I have a agree with you on the no black in the deck   It feels a little odd at first but  so far i havent missed the black,  HOWEVER  drawing a fatty relly hurts and having only 1 way to shuffle back an angle or ditching one to thirst for knowledge then blessing it back makes me  wonder if 2 blessings would be better? Or just smart playing ? :~

Im also wondering if a red version with Bogardan Hellkites and momentary blinks could be viable now ? The Hellkite/blink ver has a faster clock IF you have the blink ( has been the problem in testing but  I thought Id through that Idea in the mix ~ exp...  OATH trigger  , OATH up A Bogardan Hellkites 5 dam to opp pass turn  EOT flash back blink 5 more opp,  next turn oath up another  Bogardan Hellkite 5 more dam to opp attack for 5 win ...

[Mantis]

You really don't want to run Momentary Blink here, the idea is that you should already be winning with an activated Oath. Also, Oath + Orchard is already a 2 card combo, why add a third? I guess the point is to dump your library in the graveyard and then use Blink? In that case you should be running Krosan Reclamation.

[deathdealer]

You really don't want to run Momentary Blink here, the idea is that you should already be winning with an activated Oath. Also, Oath + Orchard is already a 2 card combo, why add a third? I guess the point is to dump your library in the graveyard and then use Blink? In that case you should be running Krosan Reclamation.

just an idea  it will open the deck up to red and white  red for shattering spree and white for swords  ect  and yes  you would run will and reclamation
 dunno not the place for it  but anyway Ill try to stay on topic  with the ver posted

again guess its safe now with most people not running brain freeze to  dump a drawn angle into your yard from thirst then blessing it back? seem risky to me ..

[Outlaw]

On Akroma / Razia as a kill, has anyone tested Savor the Moment?  Seems interesting as the creatures don't tap and you can oath again for the win.  Just throwin that out there.

[Nehptis]

I loved STM for Oath the day it was spoiled.  The problem was that there was no room for it in the Gush-Bond Oath build.  But, now it shows more promise.

Not only is it effective in an Angel build with a Vigilant Angel in play.  But, for that turn where you had to pitch the Angel to Thirst to get it out of your hand and then waste a turn Blessing the Angel(s) back, STM seems ideal!

If the ideal build is U/G and no black then there should be a spot to fit in at least 1 STM.  2 might be overkill since we already have Timewalk.

[deathdealer]

IF stm is going in what would you cut for it?
1 nullrod?

[AngryPheldagrif]

Please, for the love of G-d, and I don't care if you're running Angels or Tyrants or Tarpans, do not run Savor the Moment.

It blows. Hard. No, harder than that. Keep going. . . . more . . . . yeah, that hard.

If you are activating Oath you should be winning. 99 out of 100 successful activations should result in you proceeding to put a +1 in the game win column. Savor the Moment is a 1UU sorcery, making it more expensive than Yawgmoth's Will or Tinker, yet its effect is to cantrip and give you another land drop. This is terrible. The idea to use it to speed up the kill is completely counterintuitive to the deck's strategy as control with combo finish. It would be like putting them in Keeper to speed up the Morphling kill.

I can say in great and tested confidence that the only correct creature to run in Oath right now is Tidespout Tyrant. In every matchup including Long, the slight decrease in speed is irrelevant given your opponent's strong reduction in permanents once Tyrant hits play. Furthermore, Tyrant's ability to hardcast in a long game or off a large Mana Drain is very relevant and pitching to Force is a strongly viable and welcome option. Tyrant even protects himself from things like Swords to Plowshares which is starting to see more play, as he can bounce himself.

As for black, cutting it makes no sense. The mana base is hardly vulnerable as 3 colors given the obligatory inclusion of Forbidden Orchard, and Demonic and Vampiric smooth out the deck immensely. Access to Duress effects is priceless against combo and other decks that may utilize bounce to circumvent the prison pieces and the sideboard options are invaluable.

Please for the love of G-d do not even joke about running Momentary Blink. I hope you realize why this is an abysmal idea.

Right now I am running a second Sensei's Top and an Engineered Explosives in place of the Null Rod/Needles. This seems to work well.

[Nehptis]

I don't know if Wayne, the Oath winner from Blue Bell posts on TMD.  But, he obviously made the Angels work.  STM would be more of a fun card to test.  Maybe someone could get it to work.  But, it's not a must use spell, of course.

However,  I do think there is something to be said about UG Oath.  Maybe some more Oath players will try it and post some results.  Or maybe we'll see classic Oath with Tyrants and Black in T8s.

Time will tell.

[deathdealer]

Has anyone tryed the U/G list with  Tyrants instead of Angels?

[Fester]

Perhaps Wayne can give us a tourney report.

Okay.

I made the deck seven hours before the tournament.  Didn't test or goldfish.  Made horrible card choices and ripped like a fiend several times through the course of the afternoon.

Better lucky then good?

Also, all this discussion about my "choices" is rather amusing.  Have you put my version through workstation and tried gold fishing it.  Oh my god is it awful.

[Nehptis]

Wayne, that's hilarious!  Best and most honest tourney report ever.  Better lucky than good definitely applies here.

I did put your build thru MWS.  I figured I was either goldfishing poorly or was missing something because it wasn't performing like I thought it would.  As a lot of people did I had been playing Gush-Bond Oath for months and then Akroma Oath before that.  So, I'm no noob to Oath.  As I mentioned in a previous post I didn't like having no 1st turn plays like Duress with your version.

Oh well, I guess the speculation ends here.  And we can't really count this as a significant Oath victory if the pilot himself dismisses it as luck.  So, now we wait to see if ICBM Oath can compete in what seems to be a field of Slaver and Fish.  I hope it does well.   Blue Bell will have to wait until August to find out.

[Isaac85]

I have been messing around with oath for the past couple of months now and I had been wanting to bring it to a tournament to see what it could do. I have occasionally done testing with it on mws but I had mainly play tested against friends. My current build for the tourny went.

4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 echoing truth
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 brain freeze
3 duress
2 Pithing Needle
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Force of Will
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Oath of Druids
3 Tidespout Tyrant
2 Gaea's Blessing
1 tormod's crypt

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Extirpate
3 Oxidize
1 Pithing Needle
1 tormod's crypt
3 mana drain

now with that being said I went 2-2 winning both games against tendrills and then loosing the other two to a rg beats deck and a fish deck. I strongly agree with my main deck choices. Tormod's crypt and the pithing needles give you a really good chance against ichorid game 1 along with the waste effects. I like echoing truth better than chain of vapor because I'm afraid they might bounce my stuff as well. It also gets tokens in a situation where you have given them to many and you need to rally back. In my fist match I had to hard cast a Tyrant and I gave him three 1/1's in the process. Brain Freeze is just another I win faster card meaning you don't need to swing to win and you don't let your opponent find outs in time. I know a lot of you are wondering why duress over thought seize? I don't think its that necessary to get there creatures out of there hand. In fact in some cases its better they play them than you getting them from a thought. It also doesn't cost you the life and in certain situations 2 life can make or break you. With that said my side is pretty much the same but if I had to do it over again I would have done -3 drains -1 needle for +2 reanimate and +1 cotv. Reanimate is a really useful card especially when you ditch tyrants to tfk or your tyrant gets killed somehow.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Let's start with the Needles, which are useless against the 4 decks you faced.  Mana Drain cannot be anywhere but main.  Chalice is never less than a 4-of.  Tormod's main is irrelevant and will be Chaliced out.  2 Blessing 3 Tyrant is 1 of each too many.  Thoughtseize over Duress would have probably helped against aggro decks, am I right?  Cut the 2nd Island for a 3rd Sea; you shouldn't have mana issues, and you need black more.  Reanimate is wrong; put the Drains back in my deck and you can hardcast the Tyrants.  SB or MD Factories plus Loam will stop aggro long enough for you to win--too bad you ain't got none.

EDIT: Removed inflammatory remarks and kept the good content. Keep the snide comments out when unnecessary. -Zherbus

[TheRock]

Chalice is never less than a 4-of. 

Is it really that much of a bread-and-butter card for this deck?  Personally, I'm starting to hate this card in the MD and I don't find to be a very useful SB card either.  There are many matchups where I want another card like Duress, Leyline, or Factory, and I just can't seem to stab myself by cutting multiple blue cards to try to squeeze multiple non-blue cards in.  (Of course, there are cases where FoW sucks, but this is referring to the other cases instead.)

I'm definitely not a pro because I was dumb enough to ask why Portent wasn't being run in Oath decks (and that's because you either need the card now or SDT is better).  But with that said, is Chalice a mandatory piece of the deck, or can a package of cards like additional Duresses, Explosives, and draw spells work in its stead?

[Tha Gunslinga]

Chalice is amazing in CHALICE-Oath, because of the following things it can do:

pitch to Thirst
Drain sink
lock out combo's mana and many cheap spells
lock out Slaver either from weldable artifacts or welders, or both
lock out Fish's removal
you drop it turn 1 on the play at 0 and it randomly wins games, and is almost always good

The card is a 4-of.  Nothing less will do.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Chalice is amazing in CHALICE-Oath, because of the following things it can do:

pitch to Thirst
Drain sink
lock out combo's mana and many cheap spells
lock out Slaver either from weldable artifacts or welders, or both
lock out Fish's removal
you drop it turn 1 on the play at 0 and it randomly wins games, and is almost always good

The card is a 4-of.  Nothing less will do.

I feel the need to echo the slinga's statement here. Once chalice (especial at 1) resolves, your always in a great position.

[Nehptis]

I play Chalice at 1 ASAP and rarely look back.  COTV at 1 is so good right now.  Most of the time I prefer a hand with Land + Mox + COTV over a hand with a first turn Duress/Seize.

When you drop COTV at 1 or 0 with this deck you almost get that same eye-rolling, WTF response from your opponent as Shop players get when they drop the famously un-fun Shop + 3Sphere package.

[Tha Gunslinga]

The other thing that really got me was the SB'd Drains.  You always want 4 maindeck Drains right now, because they give you a much better game against basically everything.  They prevent your Chalices from getting Hurk'd or Rebuilt; they help punch through Oaths; they hardcast Tyrants, and they sink into Top or Factory easily.  Drain is a hard counter, and just running 4 Forces is not even close to enough.

[Isaac85]

Let's start with the Needles, which are useless against the 4 decks you faced.  Mana Drain cannot be anywhere but main.  Chalice is never less than a 4-of.  Tormod's main is irrelevant and will be Chaliced out.  2 Blessing 3 Tyrant is 1 of each too many.  Thoughtseize over Duress would have probably helped against aggro decks, am I right?  Cut the 2nd Island for a 3rd Sea; you shouldn't have mana issues, and you need black more.  Reanimate is wrong; put the Drains back in my deck and you can hard cast the Tyrants.  SB or MD Factories plus Loam will stop aggro long enough for you to win--too bad you ain't got none.

I can't deni the fact that with most of what you said is true. The needles were useless for me all day. Tormod's crypt was only good against a yawgs will and I will think about the mana drains main deck. Im not keen on them at the moment but I do see points where they could have been useful. The thoughtseize I think isn't an issue. If I would have had them during the two times I play aggro it wouldn't have mattered because I didn't see a duress effect either. Against long its irrelevant. The factories are a possibility as well. I don't think you need cotv at 4. I'm not saying its a bad thing to have but it's not as necessary as you claim it is. I had cotv in most of my opening hands and it always showed up when I needed it.

[Tin_Mox5831]

Just curious, have you tested Counterbalance out of your sideboard? It seems like it could be huge in the Oath "mirror" (Any build really). Slaver could have some issues with it too. I can't see it being anything less than superb, at least in Oath mirrors. Plus, you can always throw the extras to FoW.

Thanks,
Dave

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

this type of oath mirror, sees a lot more hard casting huge dudes for the win than you'd expect. counter balance just doesn't seem optimal

[DerDaniel]

And Oath mirrors are about winning Orchard wars, not getting an early Oath down by yourself. Many good Oath players even sb all of their Oaths out to make YOU get THEIR job done. SBing Cards in the Oath mirror only makes sense if they help you win the struggle for tokens or provide another way of winning.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I'm finding Flame Jab to be very strong in testing both as a way to jump start Tyrant pwnage as well as just making sure Welders and Bob stay off the table until I have an Oath.  Is running Flame Jab + Life from the Loam main wiser than running Null Rods main?  Probably not, but it makes for some fun online testing.

Also, to get this below 10 proxies (not owning power or drains), pearl + ruby -> petal + mana crypt?

I played Oath as my primary deck for years and years after seeing Maher's original extended list.  Then I stopped playing it after Tendrils was printed because I thought storm combo was more fun.  Post-restrictions...Oath looks like the funnest deck in the format.


Edit: Decklist was annoying, quickly dated, and unnecessary.