[Deck] ICBM Oath for Vintage 2.0

[Mantis]

And Oath mirrors are about winning Orchard wars, not getting an early Oath down by yourself. Many good Oath players even sb all of their Oaths out to make YOU get THEIR job done. SBing Cards in the Oath mirror only makes sense if they help you win the struggle for tokens or provide another way of winning.

Is that really a good strategy? I have heard of it before, but your opponent will never cast his Oath if he's behind in the Orchard war, that means you have to win by hardcasting a Tyrant. On the other hand, your opponent has two winning strategies; getting the Oath out or getting the Tyrant. Now I'm not dismissing the given SB strategy, rather I am critical about how good it really is in practice. Using this strategy, you should also take into account how much time is left on the clock, if little time is left you are probably better off just keeping the 4 Oaths and hoping for a quick kill rather than having the best outcome be a draw.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Here's what I ran at Vintage Worlds:
Benjamin Carp
Team ICBM
Vintage Worlds 8/2/8

ICBM Oath v8.2.8

4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Life from the Loam
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Thoughtseize
1 Misdirection
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Oath of Druids
2 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Gaea's Blessing

Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Oxidize
2 Pithing Needle
1 Simic Sky Swallower
2 Platinum Angel
1 Tinker


Everything was good except I do think I need more destruction vs Stax.  Generally it's not much of a metagame presence, but if I saw it more I would up it to 4 Oxidize and maybe 2 Rebuild or Rack and Ruin.  Otherwise the deck performed incredibly well.  I went 4-2-1, losing to Ichorid due to abyssmal draws and Drain Tendrils due to having no clue how to play against it, and IDing with my brother round 2.

I beat Sui Black, Slaver, Shop Aggro, and Stax, dropping only one game in there, which was due to misplays against Stax.

[Nehptis]

Thanks for the list.

The package I find effective vs. Stax is Oxidize + HRecall + Energy Flux.  You can play with numbers, but generally I use 2 Ox, and 1-ofs for the rest.  With the ETruth main I find that this is effective against Stax.  Rebuild has been in and out of my Oath deck for sometime.  But, Energy Flux is just so much more crippling to Shop.  When we had the Gushbond engine in Oath I ran Volcanic for R&R.  But, I don't anymore.

Against Drain TOA, I just play the role of control.  I try and keep equal or greater cards in hand than they do, if possible, while pinging away with a Factory or 2.  All the while I'm trying to setup a COTV.  This goes without saying, but I'm definitely not walking into a Drain, at all.

Question: Would any of your matches been more or less favorable if you had been running Akroma/Razia instead of the Tyrants?

[Tha Gunslinga]

I just don't like running Flux because it eats your Needles, Tops, and Moxen, and you desperately need those vs Stax.

I didn't hardcast Tidespout once, but I did pitch it to Force at least once or twice, and I used it to bounce stuff all over.  All in all I think the Angels would have worked about as well.  I'm still glad I'm running them, though.  Incidentally, SSS in the SB is definitely the way to go; it's nice to have a third guy that can't die to Duplicant.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Against Drain TOA, I just play the role of control.  I try and keep equal or greater cards in hand than they do, if possible, while pinging away with a Factory or 2.  All the while I'm trying to setup a COTV.  This goes without saying, but I'm definitely not walking into a Drain, at all.

This is incorrect. Playing the control role against a deck running an equal number of counters and a drastically superior number of draw spells is to basically concede the match before even sitting down at the table. That game plan is the reason there was 1 ICBM Oath and 1 Drain Tendrils in the Worlds T8, rather than 2 ICBM Oath and 0 Drain Tendrils.

Your role in the matchup is the aggressor. Any non-broken hand failing to contain either Orchard or Oath is an auto-mulligan. Your entire goal should be to resolve Oath ASAP (since their bounce is primarily anti-artifact) then just stay alive until Orchard appears.

Alternatively, you can play the prison role. This can only be accomplished in games in which you are on the play and you have Chalice (for 0) and ideally access to Strip Mine. Otherwise, you aren't going to be able to keep pace with their basics.

Your boarding strategy should not involve graveyard hate (unless you have Extirpates), but instead focus on maximizing disruption and replacing Tidespout with Platinums if you are boarding them.


For reference, though I ended up playing Gilded Claw over Oath as a metagame call, my current list and sideboard for Oath is:

4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Imperial Seal
1 Extirpate
2 Thoughtseize
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Null Rod
4 Oath of Druids
2 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Gaea's Blessing

Sideboard:
3 Extirpate
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Duress
1 Life from the Loam
3 Mishra's Factory
2 Energy Flux
2 Oxidize

[Nehptis]

TG,

4 Wastes + 1 Strip?  Did you find that to be usefull?  Normally, 3 or 4 Waste effects total is sufficient.  5 seems high.

[Ufactor]

Where did Null Rod go?  Isn't that one of the cards that let's you go prison against GL/PL/TPS/CS/DT?  It looks like they got replaced with.. erm.. Top.

...Top?!?! WtF??

[AngryPheldagrif]

Where did Null Rod go?  Isn't that one of the cards that let's you go prison against GL/PL/TPS/CS/DT?  It looks like they got replaced with.. erm.. Top.

...Top?!?! WtF??

Top was an experiment I was trying as a single copy to even out the numbers post-Brainstorm. I found it terrible and drastically underpowered due to the concept of opening with Land, Top, go, even more so because generally that meant you either cracked a Fetchland, gave them a token with Orchard, or showed them your Waste/Strip.

Ben disagreed and upped the number to two for his list while cutting disruption. This cost him greatly when he lost to combo in the last round.

My current list reflects this.

[misslehead3]

the newest list you posted is only 59 cards, whats up with that. Was there a sb strategy that you did every game two, such AS swap tyrants for platz and then continue to side from there.

[AngryPheldagrif]

the newest list you posted is only 59 cards, whats up with that. Was there a sb strategy that you did every game two, such AS swap tyrants for platz and then continue to side from there.

Missing card is 1x Extirpate.

I have no idea why you'd ever want to sideboard Plats when most decks in the combo spectrum will be boarding in artifact bounce against you.

[Tha Gunslinga]

TG,

4 Wastes + 1 Strip?  Did you find that to be usefull?  Normally, 3 or 4 Waste effects total is sufficient.  5 seems high.

I opted to run the 4th Waste over the single MD Factory.  I assumed a high concentration of Long and Slaver, both of which I would like strips against.  I think running a heavier land destruction component is the right call right now, especially in that sort of meta.

I do think the list Dan posted is incorrect.  Null Rod is overkill, and Sensei's Top is very strong.  There are some tweaks that can be made to my list, and cutting Leylines for the Tormod's/Extirpate setup is a great idea, but dropping to two Oxidize is risky.

I lost to combo last round because I had NO CLUE WHATSOEVER how to play against it.  That was ME losing, not the deck.  Anyone who says otherwise is wrong.  Dan, you saw me playing cluelessly, so I don't know why you would blame the list.  You also saw Soly Rebuild me game 1 and Tinker game 2, so Null Rod would have been trash.

Sensei's Top was good to great all day long.  It found me good cards and kept me from drawing guys.

The Platinum Angels and Tinker were for decks such as Ichorid that would lose to Plats.  I would cut them; I don't think they're necessary if you have 3 Extirpate and 3 Tormod's.

Chain of Vapor is awful and would have lost me games.  Running it over Echoing Truth is horrible, because Echoing Truth hits Goblin tokens, Zombie tokens, and Spirit tokens.  It also hits multiple Spheres/lock pieces.  Chain lets them hit your guys.  It also dies to your Chalice at 1.

Energy Flux eats your stuff; I wouldn't touch it.

What I would run in the future is something like this:


4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
1 Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal (I didn't have one for Champs, depressingly enough)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Thoughtseize
4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Oath of Druids
2 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Gaea's Blessing

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Extirpate
2 Mishra's Factory
3 Oxidize
1 Rack and Ruin
2 Pithing Needle
1 Simic Sky Swallower

[M.Solymossy]

That's actually exactly what I boarded:  2 Hurkyls Recall and 1 more duress.  I didn't board int houghtseize because I didn't want to duress them and they only had a guy I could take, thus putting one of their creatures back in to be blessing'ed back into the deck later.   Ben did lose because he was unfamiliar with the deck.  I also feel my deck with 3 maindeck duress is much stronger than the other lists that were running random chaff.  Ben I don't believe had a good matchup at all, and my testing showed it was at best 60/40 in my favor.

[Wise]

I actually Ran 4x impulse over the 4x Thirst for Knowledge at Vintage Champs, It was suggested to be by a friend, after some testing I really liked how it played, the reasoning behind it is Impulse costs 1 less mana, and it digs 1 card deeper, in oath you are often trying to find 1 card be it, Oath, Orchard or some counter magic, thoughts?

[Nehptis]

You mentioned that you like Impulse.  But, how did it work out?  Some match examples would help.

In general I like TFK over Impulse because it suits my more controllish play style.  I like having as many cards in hand as possible.  Impulse can give you card quality.  But, TFK CAN BE card quantity.  Also, with GBlessing in the deck I'm not afraid to pitch a Creature to TFK if I have to / want to.  Lastly, TFK is a perfect sink for your Drain mana.

But, if your objective is to dig deep then Impulse is probably the best available card for 1U.

[Phoenix888]

Hellkite Overlord
 
Creature - Dragon
Flying, trample, haste
 : Hellkite Overlord gets +1/+0 until end of turn.
  : Regenerate Hellkite Overlord.
8/8

I didn't see any mention of Hellkite Overlord in this thread so I thought I'd bring it to everyone's attention in case they haven't seen it.  Currently, He only comes from the dragon pack that was released, but WOTC mentions on their site that he'll be in the new set, Shards of Alara.  This is definitely a big step up from the 6/X flying, trample, hasted baddys of the past as you no longer are hoping the opponent does 2 damage to themselves to get the two oath activation kill.

And I'll apologize in advance for posting in an oath thread when I'm not 100% knowledgable in all the ins and outs of current oath builds but it seems that with the loss of gushbond and friends, oath would want to go with a more control oriented build as opposed to a combo oriented build.  It also seems to me that the Overlord would be a better fit in a control oriented build.  Could Hellkite Overlord kick Tyrant out of his throne?

EDIT:  I've thought this over for awhile and take back the idea that Hellkite Overlord could be good in oath.  The loss of 3 brainstorms with no real suitable replacement for it's effect seems like it would be too much for that kind of oath build.  Having creatures that can be hardcasted as a Plan B seems like a necessity.  Although that sure seems like a crappy option to me, I don't think it can be overlooked.

[Evergreen]

Hellkite Overlord seems insane.  I would unquestionably run this, although the only deck I play that uses oath is quite different than the icbm list, which I feel is extremely underrated at the moment.  I don't believe that the choice is either running tyrant or overlord, it seems fine to run both, even more so if people are running three targets post restrictions, although I am not sure if this ever caught on.  In my experience, sometimes you just need to kill your opponent, and tyrant cannot always get the job done.  Hellkite seems to fit this role perfectly, often killing your opponent in 2 swings by itself with a little help from orchard.  I am personally in love with this card, and although my experience with traditional oath variants in very limited, it would be very difficult for me to see not running this.  I would be interested in hearing the carp brothers, or another oath experts opinion on overlord's destiny in future versions of oath. 


Just one more thing to consider.  By the time tyrant has attacked for 5 damage, overlord has hit for at the very least 16, most of the time 18 (assuming you used orchard to play oath), and rarely 20 or more.  I understand that overlord cannot command the same dominance of the board that tyrant does, but this vastly increased kill speed more than makes up for that fact in my opinion.  I feel the exact opposite of the above poster in that I believe overlord to be the cat's meow and only seems to get better the more I think about it.

[zeus-online]

I'm pretty sure it's not as good as tyrant...and i'm not even sure if it's better then akroma/razia - Akroma's/razia's vigilance can be quite relevant.

But i'll let more experienced oath-pilots answer instead, since i never touch the deck.

/Zeus

[Nehptis]

I played Oath this weekend at Blue Bell.  Didn't do so well at 3-3.  I opted to run Razia/Akroma instead of Tyrants.  Basically, it came down to this.  When I resolved Oath, I won.  When I did not, I lost.  Over 17 games there were 3 exceptions to this.  1, I beat TPS with double Factory in an odd game that had him under a COTV for 1.  2, I beat Shop by hardcasting SSS even after being Jester's Capped about 5 times (was holding SSS for a while). 3, I lost to Stax having Ensnaring Bridge on the board.  Here a resolved Tyrant would have won it over my Angel/SSS.

There is no question that SSS is the best SB creature for Oath.  Everyone from Fish to Storm to Shop brings in targeted removal games 2 and 3.  SSS always disappoints opponents when it lands.

50% of the time COTV was relevant in my matches.  Not sure that in my meta with so much Shop that I can continue to MD it.  It is invaluable against Storm set at 1 and nice against Fish, as well.

I'm going to experiment with the draw spells / COTV slots.  Impulse and Top are looking like test targets.  I need to dig faster for the Oaths.

My matchups were:
1-2 vs TPS
2-0 vs Fish
2-1 vs 5C Stax
1-2 vs Stax
2-1 vs Metalworker Shop
1-2 vs Painted Slaver

What's the consensus on running Oath with Tyrants (without Brain Freeze or Trisk combo) vs. running Razia/Akroma?

My feeling is this:

vs. Storm - 50/50.  Sometimes the quick Angel clock is enough.  Sometimes bouncing their board can win it.  However, sometimes giving them 2 Angel beats turns is too many.  Sometimes Storm can win through 0 perms on the board.

vs. Shop - My sense here is that perhaps Tyrants are stronger in this matchup than the Angels.  Since, the Tyrants can act like HRecalls on the artifacts.

vs. Slaver - Not sure.

vs. Fish - Not sure.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Honestly, any of those can go either way. What it comes down to is that Tyrants are blue and you no longer have Brainstorm to keep the angels tucked away.

[playkenny]

Nehptis:

My meta is also very shop heavy and have the same chalice of the void delima's. I don't think you can cut them though, they are just too good, especially with null rods (I am running 2 at the moment due to a high CS and MUD presence). I have won 50% of my games just chalicing and factory beating. If you have welder troubles, try a darkblast. If you run life form the loam, try flame jab (works well). Both work better in tyrant builds but still good with angles.

With the stax meta in mind, I am favouring the Angel plan. Tyrants are the better creature, and Tyrants in a shop meta is theoretically sound, however, my experience shows that it requires land to win - and dropping an oath into a board of wires/smokestax/crucible/strip/spheres is not that hawt when you need lands to hurkle them. Angels just win on their own, and quicker, only loosing to duplicants most of the time (but SSS > dups).

It may be the way I play vs stax, but basically I just want to resolve as oath, not resolve and play spells a turn. Its very hard with 8 spheres, to the point that I was considering adding maindeck artifact hate and SB out the oaths and put in goyfs and stuff...yeah....

The other card to try over impulse is telling time. Its working very well, only that it doesn't put a drawn creature into the deck, and lat-nam's legacy is nice but not really not that nice...

hope this helps

[Wise]

I came 3rd in a 20 man event this past weekend I was running this


4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
2 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 merchant scroll
1 mystical tutor
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Duress
1 Lat-Nams legacy
4 impulse
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Oath of Druids
2 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Gaea's Blessing


I went 3 - 1 - 1

My Match ups were

First round Loss to  Tyrant Oath (1-2) - This is a 50 / 50 match up if you ask me, its a orchard war, after sideboard does not help much

Second Round Win to 2Land Belcher (2-0)  - Unless they go off first turn, this should be a fairly easy match, Chalice of the Void is your best friend, and after turn 2 having the drain engine available lets you sit back and win at your own pace.

Third Round Draw to Painters Combo (1-1) - game 1 is tough, with main deck Rebs and Pyroblasts that counter your spells, and destroy your tyrants Chalice @ 1 is a optimum play, Game 2 side in the SSS,

Forth Round Win to Tendrils combo (2-0) - Long games, Chalice was the MVP of this tournament by far

Fifth Round Win to Drain Tendrils (2-1) - I really Love the Drain Tendrils & Slaver Match up with this deck I could play it all day long, Chalice @ 1 hurts and its your biggest defense

Top 8 Quarters Win against Drain Tendrils  (2-1) - See above

Semi Finals Loss TPS - (0-2) - these games were littered with luck and play mistakes made by both parties, I think this is a favorable match up again, though my games were a crap shoot, I didn't see any chalice and had slow hands, which got me wrecked.


Explanations/Observations


1 Sensei's Divining Top - I cant quite convince myself that its worth running, I rarely see it or want to play it, and when I do its far to late, I think this slot would be better represented with a Imperal Seal, But the principle behind the top is sound, and it is a dump for drain mana, so I am on the fence about this choice

Duress > Thoughtseize  - while Thoughtseize is the "new" duress, I cant see any good reason why Oath WANTS would want to take your opponents creatures and lose 2 life in the process

1 Lat-Nams legacy - I love this thing, seriously, it shuffles your creatures & blessing back into your deck and acts like a pseudo recall at the beginning of your next turn, No creatures or blessing in hand? no problem, shuffle that extra chalice or land back into the deck, while this is not technically card advantage, I see oath more as a combo deck then a control deck, thinning the deck and seeing more cards is key,  the fact that its instant speed makes this a solid 1 of.


Impulse > Thirst for Knowledge - this is the real debate, Thirst is good, its a dump for drain mana, it nexts you 3 cards with 11+ artifacts there are lots to discard but like I mentioned before I think oath is more of a combo deck then a control deck, for 1 less mana to see 1 more card I think this is a strict advantage, there are plenty of times when I need to dig to find either a Oath of Druids or Forbidden Orchard, and Impulse lets me look 4 cards deep, its also not uncommon to impulse into another impulse digging 8 cards deep, while you don't get the card quantity you get the quality I feel this is more strategically advantageous

Questions/Comments/Criticism welcome


Thanks


-Wise

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@wise
Thirst vs impulse isn't a real debate in my mind. I've tested both of them a lot, and played both in very competitive tourney settings. You can NOT depend on impulse as an engine simply because it nets you 0 CA.  However, I'm not really that opposed to playing impulse of a 1 or 2 of to supplement TFK. I'm also not surprised that you didn't like top in your deck seeing as how you didn't have TFK for it to synergize with, Honestly, I wouldn't run top with out TFK either. As for WITH TFK, I'm not sure my self yet.
I also, find it a little odd you define oath strictly as a combo deck. I've always found the strength of oath, especially the ICBM shell, to be its versatility. It's ability to toggle between control, combo, and prison can really through your opponent for a loop

[Nehptis]

100 year is correct in that the ICBM shell is meant to be control/combo/prison.  In that shell TFK > Impulse.  However, other than the COTV aspect of the shell the other pieces, namely the Waste/Strips aren't impactful enough in my meta.  A lot of players are running more than enough Basics that the Wastes aren't relevant.  Also, Shop decks usually have enough non-land sources that although a Waste-->Shop hurts, it's not game-ending unless paired with a Null Rod (which I don't run).  I don't think that against non-Shop decks COTV at 0 plus Wastes is a relevant plan.  The reason being, against a deck like TPS I'm mostly dropping my first COTV ASAP and at 1.  If I see a second COTV then sure it could be at 0.  But, usually COTV at 1 with counters to protect it seals the deal.

All in all that leaves Waste targets like Bazaar which aren't plentiful enough for me to MD Wastes for.  This means I either need to start playing Null Rods or cut my Wastes and forgo the prison strategy and play more control/combo.  If I do the latter then I'm leaning towards playing 2-3 TFK and 2-3 Impulse.  Since, I want to dig deep and combo out quickly.

@Wise:
The other point that I'm researching is the Angels vs. Tyrant plan.  So, far in my experience and with what others in this thread have stated, neither creature package is far superior to the other (in this post Gush-Bond era).  So, in your matches did it matter if you had Oathed up an Angel or a Tyrant?

For games 2-3 what seems to be the norm is that SSS is the creature of choice. Which makes the Angel vs. Tyrant discussion limited only to Game 1.

Lastly, I wasn't too happy with LN Legacy the first time I tested it.  But, having been unluckily drawing my Creatures / Blessing a lot lately maybe it is worth adding it and MScroll as singletons.  Maybe that's better than considering running a Show and Tell!

[Wise]

I didn't mean to come off to mean that I thought oath was strictly a combo deck as it most certainly is not, though my piloting strategy has always been to try and persue the combo first, and situation permitting switch into control mode or take that rout of play, (also depends what your match up is)  I see the other side of playing the control game and when you have the opening play oath and win. I agree and do play to cut the top for my next tournament on September 6th, Impulse vs Thirst, This is definitely something to debate I agree Thirst is good next cards, gains you card advantage and everything but I just don't like the 3cc, though I am not saying Impulse is an optimum card either as like you said it does give you 0 card advantage, but I find for the 2cc lets me get the ball rolling a turn earlier and see more cards which lets me get oath out faster, which I find Thirst encourages a slower game, just my thoughts.

Angels vs Tyrant, I haven't put any testing into this just theory, I feel that Tyrant while a slow at 5/5 and haste less its ability to bounce makes it far superior to the angel, against Tendrils combo  you can bounce their land which often cripples them ESPECIALLY with a chalice at 0 or 1, if they have a Darksteel in play it takes care of that while angel try's to race the combo and cannot defend against a beastly 11/11, having 2 on the board is game for mostly any deck as with just 1 spell you can bounce 2 of their permanents and with 2 zero cc spells you can bounce the board, Against Shop It can get rid of the lock down pieces and threats, I cant comment to much about it as I haven't done the testing but I think that Tyrant is likely the better card.

Lat-Nams Legacy has proved only to good for me, you can merchant/mystical for it to get your creatures back in a desperate situation, hold on to it for a few turns and get rid of extra junk, but it definitely has my approval test it a little more!


Cheers!

[neocronx]

One of the things I noticed in my Oath list (which has become a near clone of the ICBM list) is that TFK is just more desirable in the board states I would find myself in.
Going early game to try to find the combo with impulse has me spending mana instead of having drain up, playing chalice/rod, early wasting/duress.  This left me open to decks that just plain goldfish faster if I am still searching for the win.  The only time I wanted to cast Impulse early was when I needed to find something now if my hand didn't have enough gas, which meant I should have mulliganed.  So I was always holding it back more for late game while I tried to lockdown/control the game long enough to get oath down.  This means I never wanted it in the early turns unless I was already ruined and was trying to somehow get back in the game with card selection.
TFK seemed much better in this role.
Also, there were times where I'd be digging for answers, but have a chalice at 2 shutting me down completely leaving me in top deck mode for a tutor/bouncer.
I would prefer to use both, but given the control shell, TFK feels better at keeping the game on lockdown and I never feel like I need to be searching one card deeper once I am past the early game.

When playing Drain Tendrils/Ichorid however I want them to be Impulses, as I am usually straight races before card advantage/zombies overwhelm me.

Lat-nam's Legacy feels bad to me, as it feels like a negative combo.  If you have a bad card in hand and it then it becomes very good.  And it is never truly terrible, as you can always toss something back or pitch it.  Having a lone copy in the angel build is not bad because having those in hand just makes you play worse, not to mention you are essentially -1 CA just by drawing the creature.  I actually liked it with Angels in the past.  At least with Tyrant you have other options, pitching/drain mana/incredibly late game stalemate.  Also another advantage of TFK is pitching a creature that can be quite relevant in close games where you were winning but drew guys/blessing and need to get them out.

[Wise]

I think running any more then 1 copy of lat-nams is bad, I have been stuck with 2 tyrants in my hand a fair deal, and with only brainstorm or pitch > Oath into blessing them back in, it seems kind of week,

Lets discuss side board, this tends to be my weak spot IMO, I can never make reliable choices on what to take out of the deck, while in some match ups its obvious, others make it a little harder, here is what I am currently running SB

2 Simic Sky Swallower
1 Platinum Angel
1 Tinker
3 Oxidize
4 Leyline of the void
1 Life from the loam
1 duress
2 extirpate


Simic Sky Swallower - He is great, I SB in him against Any Fish deck, Painters, or if I anticipate that my opponent will be trying to bounce/destroy my creatures Game 2/3
Platinum Angel - Ichorid Has to deal with him before they can win, so do decks like DT, Long, Belcher, which run little creature removal/bounce (with out 4x merhcant scrolls and 4x brainstorm it makes it harder to dig/find the 1 or 2 bounce spells you have available for it)
Tinker - An Alternative/Faster way to get Platinum on the board
Oxidize - Great Artifact Removal, 1cc and Instant Speed (maybe 1 hurks recall aswell?)
leyline of the void - seems only good against Ichorid/dragon
Life from the loam - Strong in the Mirror match or against Shop with lots of waste/strips
duress - a singleton for a control match up
extirpate - Ichorid, dragon, DT,

From Experiance I found that the 4 leylines seem to be a bit of a waste and would may be better like this

-4 leyline of the void

+3 tormods Crypt
+1 Extirpate

Everything else I like, here is the modded SB


2 Simic Sky Swallower
1 Platinum Angel
1 Tinker
3 Oxidize
1 Life from the loam
1 duress
3 Tormods Crypt
3 extirpate



Ichorid

+ 1 Tinker
+ 1 Platinum Angel
+ 3 Tormods Crypt
+ 3 Extirpate

- 4 Mana Drain
- 2 duress
- 2 chalice of the void

Shop Variant With Welders

+ 3 Oxidize
+ 1 Life from the loam
+ 2 Extirpate

- 4 Chalice of the Void
- 2 Duress

Shop Variant Mono Brown

+ 3 Oxidize
+ 1 Life from the loam

- 4 chalice of the void

Painters

+ 2 Simic Sky Swallower
+ 1 Duress
+ 1 Oxidize

- 2 Tidespout Tyrant
- 1 Mox Pearl
- 1 Merhcant scroll
- 1 Chalice of the void

TPS

+1 duress
+2 Tormods Crypt
+2 Extirpate

- 1 Lat-nams Legacy
- 1 Merhcant Scroll
- 1 mox Pearl
- 1 Chalice of the void
- 1 Impulse

Oath

+ 2 Simic Sky Swallower
+ 1 Duress
+ 1 Life from the loam
+ 2 Tormods Crypt

- 2 Tidespout Tyrant
- 4 Chalice of the void

Slaver

+ 2 Oxidize
+ 1 Duress
+ 3 Extirpate

- 1 Chalice of the Void
- 1 Lat-nams Legacy
- 1 Merchant Scroll
- 1 mox pearl
- 1 Impulse
- 1 Echoing Truth

Drain Tendrils

+ 1 Platinum Angel
+ 1 Tinker
+ 2 Extirpate

- 1 mox pearl
- 1 Impulse
- 1 Lat-Nams legacy
- 1 Merchant Scroll

Long


+ 2 Tormods Crypt
+ 1 Platinum Angel
+ 1 Tinker

- 1 Mox Pearl
- 1 Impulse
- 1 Tidespout Tyrant
- 1 Lat-nams legacy




So that's basically my SB plan, Questions/Comments/Criticism welcome!

Thanks

[Suicideking]

@wise
Thirst vs impulse isn't a real debate in my mind. I've tested both of them a lot, and played both in very competitive tourney settings. You can NOT depend on impulse as an engine simply because it nets you 0 CA.  However, I'm not really that opposed to playing impulse of a 1 or 2 of to supplement TFK. I'm also not surprised that you didn't like top in your deck seeing as how you didn't have TFK for it to synergize with, Honestly, I wouldn't run top with out TFK either. As for WITH TFK, I'm not sure my self yet.
I also, find it a little odd you define oath strictly as a combo deck. I've always found the strength of oath, especially the ICBM shell, to be its versatility. It's ability to toggle between control, combo, and prison can really through your opponent for a loop

I think your thinking here is wrong.  Oath isnt a deck that can win through CA.  It wins through card quality rather ther quanity.

If you draw three more cards then your opponent, but your cards are blessing, creature, creature, then you actually are down cards because you will have to find cards to deal with the crap in your hands.  Granted this is very uncommon but I've drawn three creatures in a row so it will happen on a long enough timeline.  Aside from that if you do end up with two creatures in your hand and thirst them away, you have to spend a turn oathing to get blessing to put them back.  With TPS being a force in the meta you want kills ASAP.  Oath essentially is a combo deck.  You win by cheating a big dude into play, but its not as easy as playing tinker.  Oath players need to assemble pieces and you only really need to keep your opponent from winning before you do.  Trying to play a prison or control role is going to cause you to lose to decks that are a little more broken and have less dead draws then you.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

@ wise

Quick comment on your use of platz. I think its nearly pointless in this meta. DT has typically 3 maindeck bounce for platz, not to mention they like to keep in artifact removal for chalice or rod games two and three. Bletcher can also target your platz  if it has 4 cards left in its library, not so hot for you

[Soon-Man]

After reading threw everything I think that the arguments that AngryPheldagrif made for Platinum Angel make the most sense. Sure people will have removal, but since the deck is running Force, Drain and Seize/Duress wouldn't you be able to protect Platz? I am sure that if everyone is on the Tyrant bandwagon that there must be a reason. I would like a deeper explanation.

[smbdy_182]

I read the lists that were presented and noticed that most people are running only 2 Tyrants. Shouldn't there be 3 creatures at the most? I know that the deck evolved to more controllish than the combo version(Tyrant-oath pre restrictions) so couldn't a DSC be another option as another win condition? Tyrant needs another spell to be able to bounce stuff. DSC can win random games sometimes. Your thoughts?