[Deck] Why innovate when you can just hit the format with a sledgehammer?

[AngryPheldagrif]

So the first knee-jerk reaction to having the format neutered severely is to revisit old decks that were powerful before things like Flash were even relevant. Keeper? Oath? Dragon? Tog? The possibilities are endless. I immediately got some of these ideas up on the ICBM private forums to generate discussion, and shipped ICBM Oath out here for the public's viewing pleasure, and now due to popular demand and my own amusement I present the latest and greatest incarnation of an old AngryPheldagrif classic. Bonus points for those of you who were around during its earlier time.

For those of you unfamiliar with Gilded Claw, it began as a thought experiment a number of years back during the period immediately following the restriction of Trinisphere. With Workshops no longer solidly occupying the first tier, people were going back to decks that began with 4 Force of Will, 4 Brainstorm, and the incredibly boredom of the blue control mirror once again became standard. Deckbuilding theory held that everything should fit into a nice, neat structure predicated on building some sort of advantage and then winning. Card choices and quantities were determined by some arcane formula blessed by the Vintage paragons as the be all, end all of the perfect 60 cards. 'Island, go' was literally a format-defining play.

The thought experiment came to me when I was innovating on Workshop Slaver, a hybrid of Shops and blue cards that had a lot of power but often fell victim to its own clunky and incompatible draws. The more I tinkered, the more I found that what worked was the power and what didn't work was the support structure. The times I was losing involved a number of intricate plays more or less based on casting a Brainstorm and then having my relevant spell run into a Mana Drain with a Force for my Force. The thought experiment I ran was thus: instead of trying to defend against Mana Drain with a patchwork of semi-useful Instants and occasional Force backup, what if instead I worked a deck predicated on resolving my first threat before Mana Drain could come on line, then forcing the opposing deck to burn resources to try to cope while I piled on the attack and left them dead in the water with a hand full of useless and clunky draw and counters?

Thus was born Gilded Claw. Throwing all notions of card advantage, complex synergies and collaborative offense/defense out the window, I created a deck with the singular goal to throw as many threats on the board as fast as possible and just bludgeon the opposing decks to pieces. The attack would be so overwhelming and broad that it would singularly crush aggro, control, and combo with the same parameters, something that had never before been attempted. While I was throwing away all conventional notions of deckbuilding, why not ditch the aggro beats control beats combo beats aggro paradigm out the window too?

What began as a thought experiment turned into a very amusing niche deck that I took to numerous power wins, an SCG P9 T8 (back when I would say they actually mattered), and what can best be described as its own cult following. In recent years, to my dismay, the format has tightened to the point where the net cast no longer catches all the Vintage fish. Whole new archetypal concepts in turn 1 combo (Flash), unconventional function (Ichorid) and what I would describe as brute-force blue (prerestriction Gifts, succeeded by GAT and finally Tyrant Oath) emerged which required their own set of specific answers to deal with. Gilded Claw was forced out in the same way that traditional decks were forced out of standard at the time it became Affinity versus 4 Oxidize/Tel-Jilad Justice/Viridian Shaman.dec.

Now, however, these ugly monsters have been largely contained for the immediate future, and the additional restrictions of Ponder and Brainstorm indicate that the next big deck to emerge likely will have to play much more honestly than the ones we've seen lately. What better time to resurrect a forgotten titan in Gilded Claw?



The deck itself is indeed different than it once was. New cards have been printed that enhance the hyper-aggressive playstyle, while other decks still remain which require a modified set of threats to destroy. The basic premise remains. Your only strategy is to lay out every threat you can as soon as possible, seize the momentum from the moment the mulligans are finished and never let up until their life total reaches zero or they scoop up their cards on their own volition. We face a metagame completely unforged, and thus I present a deck guaranteed to leave your opponents wondering what the address was of that house that just fell on them.

Gilded Claw v.8.01 // Black Magic Hammer:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Trinisphere
4 Goblin Welder
4 Juggernaut
2 Triskelion
1 Karn, Silver Golem
1 Platinum Angel
1 Sundering Titan
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Memory Jar
1 Crop Rotation
1 Balance
2 Bazaar of Baghdad
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
1 Mishra's Factory
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
4 City of Brass
1 Coalition Relic

The strategy to playing the deck is hardly rocket science. Play a lot of mana. Play a threat. If they counter it, play another one. If they counter that one too, either play a third or start Welding in the previously countered ones. If they try to win the game before you do, pile on the prison pieces. If they start bouncing them, play more, and while you're at it destroy their mana until they can't anymore. If God forbid they try something as ill-advised as drawing cards or playing tutors, use the free time to beat them to death or at very least lay prison and land destruction so they have no way to cast what they've dug up. If you feel like you're stalling out, use Bazaar and Welder and Crucible to turn useless stuff into useful. Maybe try resetting everything with Balance. Don't be too worried about gumming the entire game up with a bunch of Chalices and Thorns. Odds are you're going to draw into a bigger and badder threat long before they do.

As for a sideboard, all you really need to worry about is being able to swap out occasionally useless things such as Leyline and Thorn for cards that matter. The important thing is to always, always remember that while Brainstorm may require the tea-sipping socialite to think for 15 minutes as to the ideal configuration to optimize his carefully calculated 10 trillion branched decision tree of splendid victory, JUGGERNAUT ATTACKS WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT.



Have a nice day. Oh, and discuss!

[fury]

An interesting rogue deck. But the draw engine seems to be tiny. And the tempo is not optimized (even it's difficult in a deck which is quite multipurpose). What MUs did you test ?

[Bill Copes]

The important thing is to always, always remember that while Brainstorm may require the tea-sipping socialite to think for 15 minutes as to the ideal configuration to optimize his carefully calculated 10 trillion branched decision tree of splendid victory, JUGGERNAUT ATTACKS WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT.

Most splendidly phrased, sir.

I like the list a lot and will probably gravitate toward something similar to this in the near future, as it looks more fun to play than traditional 5-color stax.  The only part of it I don't particularly agree with are the 4 main deck leylines.  I don't think maindecking them will be necessary after flash is restricted.  I think a few tormod's crypts and powder kegs could be better suited for these slots based on versatility and castability.  Leyline is much better for ichorid in general, but if you don't know you're playing against it game 1 and don't happen to luckily have one in your opening hand, I see casting this quickly enough to be relevant a very daunting task.

I'm glad decks like this will be viable enough to play again.  Thanks for posting the list.

[Outlaw]

so isnt this like... stax -4 smoke stacks +4 juggernaughts and a new name?

[AngryPheldagrif]

so isnt this like... stax -4 smoke stacks +4 juggernaughts and a new name?

No.

An interesting rogue deck. But the draw engine seems to be tiny. And the tempo is not optimized (even it's difficult in a deck which is quite multipurpose). What MUs did you test ?

Tempo is an abstract concept. Please elaborate on how my 'tempo' is not 'optimized.'

The only part of it I don't particularly agree with are the 4 main deck leylines.

I expect Ichorid to be a major force in the new metagame, and don't believe Tormod's Crypt alone is strong enough to combat it. Should Ichorid not be so present then yes, Leylines can be cut for other pieces.

[meadbert]

Leylines in the main seem strong for this deck.  If the top decks are really Shops, Dredge, Slaver and DT then Leyline will be strong.  Stax should already be a strong matchup.  Leyline is effective against Slaver which has trouble defending itself when it can neither use Welder nor Yawg Will.  Drain Tendrils and Dredge are both severely effected by Leyline of the Void.

[desolutionist]

so isnt this like... stax -4 smoke stacks +4 juggernaughts and a new name?

The Juggernauts give you more options and opportunities to make some great plays.  A normal Stax deck is pretty much set dead on locking down the opponent's resources starting turn 1.  With this deck you can lead with a Juggernaut and then start locking them down, or lead with lock pieces followed by some quick artifact beats, or even just lock them down like a traditional Stax deck.  It's like Stax, but better.

Ichorid has never been played in super numbers so I don't think main LotV is necessary.  I'd try cutting it for a singleton Tormod's Crypt and something to deal with Empty the Warrens.

[RJ]

How has the configuration of only 4 rainbow lands and 1 coalition relic worked for you?  The deck seems to need a little more colored mana that this.

[Bill Copes]

I expect Ichorid to be a major force in the new metagame, and don't believe Tormod's Crypt alone is strong enough to combat it.

I agree.  I was thinking more along the lines of recurring Crypt with welder, than crypt alone.

[AngryPheldagrif]

How has the configuration of only 4 rainbow lands and 1 coalition relic worked for you?  The deck seems to need a little more colored mana that this.

The majority of the colored spells are relevant throughout the game, and rarely come up multiple times. For any given colored spell you have 4 CoB, Coalition Relic, Black Lotus,  and the on-color Mox, plus Academy for the big blue. Generally this has been sufficient. Otherwise the deck is perfectly happy operating as a largely mono-brown deck.

[madmanmike25]

First off I really liked the post heading.  Shop decks have some serious potential in the up-and-coming meta.

Nice to see you are still tweaking and sharpening the Claw.  My main problem with Gilded Claw was that it ran inferior cards like Memnarch and Gilded Lotus.  I'm glad they are gone.  A few comments...

Why no Vampiric Tutor?  You have lock pieces and Crucibles.  Vamping for Stripmine is going to be AWESOME against all the islands that will likely be played.  You have 4 Welders and a pair of Bazaars.  Vamping for some of your singletons bombs would also be quite a powerful play.  You don't want to run any more colored spells?  Then I fail to see how Crop Rotation is better than Vamp in this deck.

The mana base looks a tad light for the average cc of your cards.  Twenty three souces (not counting Relic) seems low for a Shop deck.  Take into consideration that most Shop decks nowdays run 9 spheres standard.  Also take into consideration that you will likely be facing more opponents playing with Shop decks and the said 9 spheres.  Even more consideration should be given to the probable return of Null Rod that would wreck your manabase.   I forsee a problem here.

Why the lone Factory?  Why this instead of the 4th Wasteland that might actually help your Juggs swing for lethal?  Is it the cute Welder tricks or recurring a 3/3 blocker with Crux?

As a minor side note, I always found it was easy to run a lone Glimmervoid when you include that much artifact acceleration in addition to four Chalices.  You can disagree all you want in theory, but a singleton was always quite nice to have based on my personal experience.

I will also echo the sentiments that it isn't necessary to maindeck Leylines.  You say this deck wants to be aggressive?  Then add in four more threats until Ichorid puts up decent numbers.  Tanglewires, Smokestack(god forbid), or at least another Relic are some possible options.  With your low mana count I can't recommend Spheres.

Should Ichorid not be so present then yes, Leylines can be cut for other pieces.

I'll ask you to spell it out then.  What 4 cards would YOU put in for this unknown meta if some crystal ball told you not to worry about Ichorid?  I'm curious.

It's a shame that Survival is waaaay too slow, this deck could almost run one.  Pity.

Any thought given to Top?

JUGGERNAUT ATTACKS WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT.

How could you not like it?  My favorite win ever was when my opponent Slaver-locked me and thought he'd won.  Then I had to point out the fact that he was not quite done with my combat phase....

The Juggernauts give you more options and opportunities to make some great plays.  A normal Stax deck is pretty much set dead on locking down the opponent's resources starting turn 1.  With this deck you can lead with a Juggernaut and then start locking them down, or lead with lock pieces followed by some quick artifact beats, or even just lock them down like a traditional Stax deck.  It's like Stax, but better.

That remains to be seen if this is better than 5c Stax(or even Staxless Stax).  Why do you think leading with a Juggernaut would be a better turn 1 play than leading with a Smokestack when you "then start locking them down"?

I see this as a multicolored alternative to Shop Aggro.  Bombs away, and good luck.

Mike

[desolutionist]

That remains to be seen if this is better than 5c Stax(or even Staxless Stax).  Why do you think leading with a Juggernaut would be a better turn 1 play than leading with a Smokestack when you "then start locking them down"?

I see this as a multicolored alternative to Shop Aggro.  Bombs away, and good luck.

Mike

Juggernaut has to be dealt with immediately

then forcing the opposing deck to burn resources to try to cope while I piled on the attack

Smokestack doesn't have to be dealt with at all; it just makes it harder to cope with Spheres and Thorns.

[ErkBek]

Dan, what happened to Intuition in this deck? I thought the 3 of Intuitions are what made the Gilded Claw so explosive. Do you think Thorn is that good?

[desolutionist]

Not losing a single game, I piloted this steamroller through 6 rounds of swiss yesterday.  Not ever playing a Shop deck before and not even having a useable sideboard is a good indication that this deck is a powerhouse in the post-Brainstorm metagame.  In top 8 I lost to the average Slaver opening... (you know: Black Lotus, Ancestral, Tinker, etc.) Twice!

I played Dan's list exactly and wouldn't change a single maindeck card.

[Hi-Val]

I expect Ichorid to be a major force in the new metagame, and don't believe Tormod's Crypt alone is strong enough to combat it. Should Ichorid not be so present then yes, Leylines can be cut for other pieces.

This has the potential to be silly but what about making 4 Leylines into 4 Tormod's Crypts? Same maindeck slots, and it's a little thematic. You get wrecked by Chalice 0 from Ichorid, unfortunately.

This is a deck that makes me look long and hard at Demonic Consultation too.

Looks like a hell of a lot of fun to play!

[Dr. Digglesworth]

That remains to be seen if this is better than 5c Stax(or even Staxless Stax).  Why do you think leading with a Juggernaut would be a better turn 1 play than leading with a Smokestack when you "then start locking them down"?

I see this as a multicolored alternative to Shop Aggro.  Bombs away, and good luck.

Mike

Juggernaut has to be dealt with immediately

then forcing the opposing deck to burn resources to try to cope while I piled on the attack

Smokestack doesn't have to be dealt with at all; it just makes it harder to cope with Spheres and Thorns.

I like this deck a lot, but I would have to echo the previous sentiment that it is pretty much 5-color Stax with Juggernauts instead of Smokestacks.  I don't think that vastly changes the overall functioning of the deck; tricks with circumventing Slaver locks aside (which was pretty cool, I'll admit), it sounds to me like you're pretty much trading a clock that takes away chunks of your opponent's board position for one that takes away chunks of his life total.  Both are 4cc artifacts that have to be dealt with quickly or they will end the game.

As I see it, the way it attacks the opponent's board position makes the Smokestack version slightly better.  I strongly disagree with the statement that the opponent doesn't have to deal with Smokestack.  The opponent has time to develop his board and use his mana to dig for answers against a Jug, or just outrace it, which is more difficult against the Stack.  Smokestack can even be ramped up to 2 (and in exceptional cases, 3) to accelerate its impact.  To make my point more concrete:  I will almost always scoop to an un-Fowed Smokestack on the first turn unless I have the mana and answer in hand, a reasonable way to tutor for it within the first 2 turns, or a very quick combo kill.  Against Juggernaut I don't need to worry about losing my basic ability to play the game.  I could double-block it with confidant + t. mage after my 2nd turn.  I could plow it, assuming my deck plays those.  I can tinker out Plat. and ignore it.  I can tutor & build up my resources undisrupted over a few turns, then combo out.

Again, don't get me wrong, I like the deck, but I'm not sold on the fundamental difference or superiority of the Juggernaut version.

Also, I agree that a Vamp really belongs in the deck.  I'd probably cut 1 Bazaar for it.

[AngryPheldagrif]

I like this deck a lot, but I would have to echo the previous sentiment that it is pretty much 5-color Stax with Juggernauts instead of Smokestacks.  I don't think that vastly changes the overall functioning of the deck;

If you "don't think that vastly changes the overall functioning" of the deck, then you will lose. To put it rather directly, I've articulated in the original post that this deck requires a significantly different mindset than other Workshop decks. Playing this like Prison + a few beats is not going to win matches.

It sounds to me like you're pretty much trading a clock that takes away chunks of your opponent's board position for one that takes away chunks of his life total.  Both are 4cc artifacts that have to be dealt with quickly or they will end the game.

That is simply incorrect on the relevant level of theory. Take Long.dec for example: Long can go from an empty board to winning the game in the space of a single turn. Asking Long.dec to go from 0 life to winning the game is not an applicable choice.

Rather than going point-by-point on your entire post, I'm just going to talk about the fundamentals of Smokestack for a bit here. Bear in mind, I've been on both sides of the board from the card in many matchups and have beaten it and beaten with it more times than I can count.

Smokestack's effect on an opponent is extremely devastating. Unhindered, it destroys their entire board with no exceptions in a rather expedient time. Unfortunately, the effect is entirely symmetric in all facets except either in combination with Welder or Crucible. Problem is, it is 99% worthless AGAINST a Welder, such as those played by Control Slaver. Or against a deck that doesn't need a lot of permanents, such as Long. Or against another permanent-heavy deck, such as any given Workshop variant.

Hmm, seems like it doesn't seem like a very strong call in this metagame.

And what happens if you have to ramp it to 2 or 3? Chances are it'll eat a significant chunk of your board in return before it finishes its job. And then? It dies. So what happens if you haven't been able to secure a win whilst losing a good deal of your own permanents? Well, your Smokestack committed seppuku, and being that Workshops aren't exactly famous for their draw engines, you're probably a little brittle yourself. Meanwhile, your opponent can start re-accumulating resources to continue the battle.

We've had a few tournaments to work with post-6-20, and I've seen a million bad matchups for Smokestack, probably explaining the lack of them in the T8s.

I will almost always scoop to an un-Fowed Smokestack on the first turn unless I have the mana and answer in hand, a reasonable way to tutor for it within the first 2 turns, or a very quick combo kill.

If you ever scoop to just (i.e., not in combination with a Crucible and other stuff) a first turn Smokestack under any circumstances, you are playing incorrectly. I don't care what your logic or reasoning is and I'm sorry if this comes off as a bit of an attack but I am just appalled by this statement. I wouldn't scoop to Shop, Mox, Smokestack with my draft deck from last night. Trying to find logic to scoop to a first turn symmetrical effect gives me a headache.

Against Juggernaut I don't need to worry about losing my basic ability to play the game.

You're not supposed to be worried about losing your 'basic ability,' you're supposed to be worried about losing your life total.

I could double-block it with confidant + t. mage after my 2nd turn.

Trading one card and the likely mana investment of one turn for those two? Sign me up!

I could plow it, assuming my deck plays those.

Yes, and you can Oxidize or Rack and Ruin Smokestack. I'm well aware permanents can be destroyed. 

I can tinker out Plat. and ignore it.

Platinum also ignores the overwhelming majority of win conditions in the format. I play 4 Welders and my own Platinum for a reason.

I can tutor & build up my resources undisrupted over a few turns, then combo out.

I'd like to think that I have the Chalices, Leylines, Thorns, Trinisphere, Balance, Wastelands, Strip Mine, Karn, and Platinum Angel to make sure you don't have a few undisrupted turns.

Not losing a single game, I piloted this steamroller through 6 rounds of swiss yesterday.  Not ever playing a Shop deck before and not even having a useable sideboard is a good indication that this deck is a powerhouse in the post-Brainstorm metagame.  In top 8 I lost to the average Slaver opening... (you know: Black Lotus, Ancestral, Tinker, etc.) Twice!

I played Dan's list exactly and wouldn't change a single maindeck card.

Great to see those results and congratulations!

[Dr. Digglesworth]

I like this deck a lot, but I would have to echo the previous sentiment that it is pretty much 5-color Stax with Juggernauts instead of Smokestacks.  I don't think that vastly changes the overall functioning of the deck;

If you "don't think that vastly changes the overall functioning" of the deck, then you will lose. To put it rather directly, I've articulated in the original post that this deck requires a significantly different mindset than other Workshop decks. Playing this like Prison + a few beats is not going to win matches.

I re-read your original post, and I don't see any description of how you would play it any differently than the original 5-color Stax.  I.e., you keep throwing out big threats until your opponent runs out of answers and is overwhelmed.  If a threat is countered, weld it back in.  Etc., etc.  Whether that threat is something that will gobble up their life total or gobble up their board position, how does it change how you play the deck on a fundamental level?

It sounds to me like you're pretty much trading a clock that takes away chunks of your opponent's board position for one that takes away chunks of his life total.  Both are 4cc artifacts that have to be dealt with quickly or they will end the game.

That is simply incorrect on the relevant level of theory. Take Long.dec for example: Long can go from an empty board to winning the game in the space of a single turn. Asking Long.dec to go from 0 life to winning the game is not an applicable choice.

Long.dec may be an exception; I'm not experienced enough with it to have a solid opinion on it.  Does it absolutely need to get Bargain or Necro in play in order to win?  I don't think it used to, pre LED-restriction.

Rather than going point-by-point on your entire post, I'm just going to talk about the fundamentals of Smokestack for a bit here. Bear in mind, I've been on both sides of the board from the card in many matchups and have beaten it and beaten with it more times than I can count.

I have a fair amount of experience with it as well.

Smokestack's effect on an opponent is extremely devastating. Unhindered, it destroys their entire board with no exceptions in a rather expedient time. Unfortunately, the effect is entirely symmetric in all facets except either in combination with Welder or Crucible. Problem is, it is 99% worthless AGAINST a Welder, such as those played by Control Slaver. Or against a deck that doesn't need a lot of permanents, such as Long. Or against another permanent-heavy deck, such as any given Workshop variant.

Smokestack's effect is almost symmetric; your opponent sacrifices first if you time the upkeep stack right (obvious, I know, but it bears stating).  This means that your opponent suffers the setback to his mana development for a turn while you still have access to all of yours, which compounds the asymmetry in development, as you have more opportunity to cast permanents.  The asymmetry in the number of permanents in 5-color Stax versus most other decks further exploits the symmetry of The Stack in your favor.

In the mirror or against another Workshop variant, Smokestack is generally not good unless you've got the combo with it, I agree with this statement.

The point about Long I addressed above.  It may be one deck where the life vs. board position argument goes in favor of Juggernaut.

I would content that against Welder it's not great but not necessarily bad if you get it early.  If you can play it early and sacrifice a few lands to the Stack you'll probably be able to set your opponent back enough that Welder won't wreck its effectiveness.  Since CS plays countermagic, they could counter something like a Thorn and swap that with Juggernaut or Smokestack, which wouldn't give an advantage to either.  Overall, I do concede that against CS Juggernaut is at least somewhat better.

But if you want to talk about the relative merits versus particular cards in decks likely to be prominent in the new metagame, why not talk about Oath?  Smokestack is much better than Juggernaut here.  Why not talk about Swords to Plowshares, a non Stax-specific staple in fish?

And what happens if you have to ramp it to 2 or 3? Chances are it'll eat a significant chunk of your board in return before it finishes its job.

It's the slight asymmetry of who suffers from Stack first, and asymmetry of permanents vs. most decks, which makes you much, much more capable of taking the hit to your board position.

And then? It dies. So what happens if you haven't been able to secure a win whilst losing a good deal of your own permanents? Well, your Smokestack committed seppuku, and being that Workshops aren't exactly famous for their draw engines, you're probably a little brittle yourself. Meanwhile, your opponent can start re-accumulating resources to continue the battle.

You may or may not have secured the win by the time the Smokestack dies (if the game goes this long), but you probably will have given yourself such a lead in development that you will be able to force down the win at some point.

I will almost always scoop to an un-Fowed Smokestack on the first turn unless I have the mana and answer in hand, a reasonable way to tutor for it within the first 2 turns, or a very quick combo kill.

If you ever scoop to just (i.e., not in combination with a Crucible and other stuff) a first turn Smokestack under any circumstances, you are playing incorrectly. I don't care what your logic or reasoning is and I'm sorry if this comes off as a bit of an attack but I am just appalled by this statement. I wouldn't scoop to Shop, Mox, Smokestack with my draft deck from last night. Trying to find logic to scoop to a first turn symmetrical effect gives me a headache.

Sorry, maybe I over-stated this for dramatic effect.  I don't always scoop, but I do often lose when 1st-turn Stack hits.  The logic comes from the asymmetries in who-sacs-first and deck composition that I mentioned above.

Against Juggernaut I don't need to worry about losing my basic ability to play the game.

You're not supposed to be worried about losing your 'basic ability,' you're supposed to be worried about losing your life total.

Your life total is irrelevant until you're at or below 0.  You can still function at 5 life as well as you could at 20 unless your deck relies on trading life for other resources.  It's harder to function (for most decks) with no permanents in play.

I could double-block it with confidant + t. mage after my 2nd turn.

Trading one card and the likely mana investment of one turn for those two? Sign me up!

Assuming you went first:

Your opponent has maintained card parity in this scenario (1 card from Confidant, 1 artifact from T. Mage) if you only consider his cards, and has gotten card advantage when you consider your lost Juggernaut.  His mana base has not been hampered. Aside from that, he's at 5 less life than he would have been if not for the Juggernaut.

Now, consider what could easily happen with Smokestack:

During his first upkeep after playing the confidant, he has to decide whether to sac the confidant and keep his mana intact, or sac a mana on the assumption that the cards drawn will allow him to outlast the Stack.  If he kept a 3 mana opening draw (2 land + 1 mox), this is not an easy decision.  If he sacs the mana source and doesn't draw another, he can't even play the Trinket Mage this turn and very well may have just lost the game.  If he sacs the Confidant and plays the T. Mage (fetching out a Mox or the Lotus), his opponent ramps the Stack and plays 2-3 permanents.  He then must sac the T. Mag and a mana source, leaving him with 3 mana sources if he didn't draw another.  He'd better win this turn before the Stack leaves him with 1 permanent in play.

I could plow it, assuming my deck plays those.

Yes, and you can Oxidize or Rack and Ruin Smokestack. I'm well aware permanents can be destroyed.

My point is that Juggernaut dies to common maindeck creature removal (StP in fish) which doesn't effect Smokestack.

I can tinker out Plat. and ignore it.

Platinum also ignores the overwhelming majority of win conditions in the format.

But it doesn't ignore Smokestack.

I can tutor & build up my resources undisrupted over a few turns, then combo out.

I'd like to think that I have the Chalices, Leylines, Thorns, Trinisphere, Balance, Wastelands, Strip Mine, Karn, and Platinum Angel to make sure you don't have a few undisrupted turns.

I'd like to think that the more chances I have to go off unmolested, the better my chances of winning are.

[desolutionist]

I like this deck a lot, but I would have to echo the previous sentiment that it is pretty much 5-color Stax with Juggernauts instead of Smokestacks.  I don't think that vastly changes the overall functioning of the deck; tricks with circumventing Slaver locks aside (which was pretty cool, I'll admit), it sounds to me like you're pretty much trading a clock that takes away chunks of your opponent's board position for one that takes away chunks of his life total.  Both are 4cc artifacts that have to be dealt with quickly or they will end the game.

This isn't 5-color Stax.  This is Gilded Claw.  The difference between Gilded Claw and 5-color Stax is that Gilded Claw wins matches in less than 10 minutes.

As I see it, the way it attacks the opponent's board position makes the Smokestack version slightly better.  I strongly disagree with the statement that the opponent doesn't have to deal with Smokestack.  The opponent has time to develop his board and use his mana to dig for answers against a Jug, or just outrace it, which is more difficult against the Stack.

You have more turns to race or deal with Stack than you do for Jug.

I will almost always scoop to an un-Fowed Smokestack on the first turn

lol...?

Diggle, what is the minimum number of differences a deck needs to have from another?  Is Pitch Long actually Grim Long?  Was Belcher Gifts just Slaver?

[Dr. Digglesworth]

I like this deck a lot, but I would have to echo the previous sentiment that it is pretty much 5-color Stax with Juggernauts instead of Smokestacks.  I don't think that vastly changes the overall functioning of the deck; tricks with circumventing Slaver locks aside (which was pretty cool, I'll admit), it sounds to me like you're pretty much trading a clock that takes away chunks of your opponent's board position for one that takes away chunks of his life total.  Both are 4cc artifacts that have to be dealt with quickly or they will end the game.

This isn't 5-color Stax.  This is Gilded Claw.  The difference between Gilded Claw and 5-color Stax is that Gilded Claw wins matches in less than 10 minutes.

I would imagine the eventual winner is decided in roughly the same time.

As I see it, the way it attacks the opponent's board position makes the Smokestack version slightly better.  I strongly disagree with the statement that the opponent doesn't have to deal with Smokestack.  The opponent has time to develop his board and use his mana to dig for answers against a Jug, or just outrace it, which is more difficult against the Stack.

You have more turns to race or deal with Stack than you do for Jug.

That really depends on the stage of the game and the board state.  I'd say for the early to early-mid stage of the game (the most important ones), no, you don't have more turns for Jug.

I will almost always scoop to an un-Fowed Smokestack on the first turn

lol...?

Diggle, what is the minimum number of differences a deck needs to have from another?  Is Pitch Long actually Grim Long?  Was Belcher Gifts just Slaver?

I notice you left off the rest of my quote...  Also the fact that I qualified that statement in one of my earlier replies.

That's not really fair to me, now is it? 

To answer your question:  I don't have a set number of cards that 2 decks must differ by before I will consider them 2 different decks.  It depends on the cards' importance and function in the deck, and whether the different card choices change the deck's play style to a substantial degree.  I do think that Angry Pheldagrif came to his list independently, as I remember it used to be very different.  But whatever.  I'm not going to get into a deck-naming debate.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Look, I hate to be direct, but aside from recycling vague accusations about this being Stax + Juggs, do you have any actual questions, criticisms, or commentary on anything relevant to the deck and discussion of such?

If you're implying Stax is better, explain why. Whether Juggernaut is a bigger threat than Smokestack in a vacuum is entirely irrelevant because such a scenario is so impractical as to be theoretically irrelevant. Arguing it is erroneous because it is taking the micro side of Vintage when everything else is talking about macro. If you want to prove the point, show us a 60 card Stax list and tell us why it is better.

If you're implying that I am trying to claim credit in any way for a stolen deck, please see the last several years of work including multiple front-page StarCityGames.com articles I've written on the deck.

I'm not trying to be condescending or dismissive, but if you're readily admitting you aren't familiar with concepts such as modern Long.dec, what is the point of having the argument at all?

[Hi-Val]

It's all a decision that you, as a player, has to make: do I want to grind an opponent with Smokestacks or put pressure on them with Juggs? Both end up being big threats in different ways. I think the easiest way to understand this deck is to look at it like a Fish deck-- it doesn't need to lock out, it just needs to stall in time for Trikes and Juggernauts to get to poundin'. If you think it can stall well enough to do that, then go for it. If you think Stax is better because Smokestack is disruption in itself, then go for that. It's hard to say which is better.

[LotusHead]

It's all a decision that you, as a player, has to make: do I want to grind an opponent with Smokestacks or put pressure on them with Juggs? Both end up being big threats in different ways.

I've been piloting Claw/Stax varients for quite a while now, and Juggs + Stax is where i've been heading (I don't do leylines main...).

With 9 Sphere technology, Juggs OR Smokestacks can seal the deal (until people do Rebuild maindeck again).

[Dr. Digglesworth]

Look, I hate to be direct, but aside from recycling vague accusations about this being Stax + Juggs, do you have any actual questions, criticisms, or commentary on anything relevant to the deck and discussion of such?

Heh.  I hate to be direct as well, but I did, indeed, offer "actual criticism and commentary" which are "relevant to the deck and discussion of such".  I also have to ask if you actually read my posts.

If you'd like to respond to any of my specific points (which you seem reluctant to do) then please feel free to do so.

If you're implying Stax is better, explain why. Whether Juggernaut is a bigger threat than Smokestack in a vacuum is entirely irrelevant because such a scenario is so impractical as to be theoretically irrelevant. Arguing it is erroneous because it is taking the micro side of Vintage when everything else is talking about macro. If you want to prove the point, show us a 60 card Stax list and tell us why it is better.

I thought it was pretty clear that I was arguing that Smokestack was better that Juggernaut precisely in the list provided.  I did make a few references to comparing the 2 cards on their individual merits, but I mentioned e.g. the reason that Stacks is better rests on the higher count of permanents in 5-color Stax as opposed to most other decks.

If you're implying that I am trying to claim credit in any way for a stolen deck, please see the last several years of work including multiple front-page StarCityGames.com articles I've written on the deck.

Nowhere did I imply you are trying to claim credit for a stolen deck.  If you will read my reply to desolutionist, you will see that I wrote:  "I do think that Angry Pheldagrif came to his list independently, as I remember it used to be very different.  But whatever.  I'm not going to get into a deck-naming debate."

I'm not trying to be condescending or dismissive, but if you're readily admitting you aren't familiar with concepts such as modern Long.dec, what is the point of having the argument at all?

That's one deck that I don't claim to have enough experience/knowledge with for me to state definitely that Stack is better than Jug (maybe you could explain your reasoning that Long.dec needs a fairly high life total to win).  I hardly think that somehow invalidates the rest of what I've said.  Instead of being condescending and dismissive (which you are), I invite you to respond to my specific points and refute them.



To summarize, since you don't seem to like reading my posts:

1)  I'm not claiming you stole your decklist.
2)  If you won't debate my points or explain your position, I have a hard time taking it too seriously.



Just to reiterate, while I think Smokestack is better than Jug (in this list, substitution of which would pretty much make it 5-color Stax, but the name doesn't really matter to me, I am simply talking about a well-known label for how the deck functions), I don't think it's better by a huge margin.  Just enough that, all things equal, I'd probably choose the Stack over Jug.  Hell, maybe I'm wrong.  Maybe the synergies with the rest of the deck make Jug better; I can accept that as possible.  If so, would you kindly show a sample game or scenario where this is made manifest?

[AngryPheldagrif]

I re-read your original post, and I don't see any description of how you would play it any differently than the original 5-color Stax.  I.e., you keep throwing out big threats until your opponent runs out of answers and is overwhelmed.  If a threat is countered, weld it back in.  Etc., etc.  Whether that threat is something that will gobble up their life total or gobble up their board position, how does it change how you play the deck on a fundamental level?

Stax takes significantly longer to win the game and is composed largely of symmetric effects which it wants to abuse. You don't just throw out a Smokestack and starting ramping it up as fast as possible. Because you have a number of blank plays that do not have an immediate effect on gamestate or threat balance, your goal is to layer the interactions in an expedient way to imprison your opponent and prevent their ability to assemble mana and cast spells. Because you are not generally putting a significant amount of pressure on their life total, you are more worried about permanent counts and breaking the symmetry. Should you opponent, say, resolve a Welder or get Drain mana up, you are in serious trouble even later in the game.

Running a more aggressive strategy integrating large power threats prevents them from reaching the lategame stage where they may be able to reach and stabilize by countering a key Crucible or Welder. If they can keep you from pulling ahead your permanent count so much, your symmetric effects lose a good portion of their value.

It sounds to me like you're pretty much trading a clock that takes away chunks of your opponent's board position for one that takes away chunks of his life total.  Both are 4cc artifacts that have to be dealt with quickly or they will end the game.

Smokestack is an entirely symmetrical effect. Assuming it doesn't get Weldered by either player, you will sacrifice just as many permanents as they do over the course of its lifetime. Thus, if they prevent you from breaking the synergy, your Stack becomes a vulnerable proposition. Juggernaut is completely independent of the rest of the deck. It will kill your opponent in 4 swings whether you have no other permanents or your entire deck out.

Long.dec may be an exception; I'm not experienced enough with it to have a solid opinion on it.  Does it absolutely need to get Bargain or Necro in play in order to win?  I don't think it used to, pre LED-restriction.

Smokestack versus Long is a tricky proposition because they are often able to save up a critical mass hand and wait it out. They are perfectly capable of winning off an empty board with a Swamp and a couple Moxen and Rituals into a Draw-7, Desire, Bargain, or Will. While Juggernaut does not necessarily effect their gamestate, it damages their ability to combo out with Bargain, Necro, and Grim Tutor, while their Thoughtseizes and even Fetchlands also chip away at it. Unlike Smokestack, they cannot wait out a Juggernaut. Again, Smokestack is powerful but dependent on what else you have against them.

Bear in mind that against combo, prison is the enemy as per the five-axis metagame. This should be where Smokestack is the best and as I said it is very powerful. I'm infinitely more worried about Control Slaver, the traditional enemy of Stax which is making up a huge chunk of the metagame right now.

Smokestack's effect is almost symmetric; your opponent sacrifices first if you time the upkeep stack right (obvious, I know, but it bears stating).  This means that your opponent suffers the setback to his mana development for a turn while you still have access to all of yours, which compounds the asymmetry in development, as you have more opportunity to cast permanents.

Mathematically and theoretically this is incorrect. I already stated how they sacrifice an identical number of permanents overall, and the idea that they sacrifice first is misleading because it ignores the fact that you use the resource of 4 mana (generally a full turn) to cast it. Therefore, they actually have the first turn unimpeded, then you have a turn unimpeded, then they have a turn -1 permanent, then you, etc.

The asymmetry in the number of permanents in 5-color Stax versus most other decks further exploits the symmetry of The Stack in your favor.

I'm less worried about average permanent counts right now and more worried about the number of Welders around. Since the restriction of Brainstorm the permanent numbers have actually risen, especially as more decks add Sensei's Divining Top and maindeck Tormod's Crypts.

In the mirror or against another Workshop variant, Smokestack is generally not good unless you've got the combo with it, I agree with this statement.

Which worries me significantly when the majority of other Workshop builds seem to be Mono-red or Mono-brown and tilted towards the aggressive side which is largely unwinnable for Stax.

I would content that against Welder it's not great but not necessarily bad if you get it early.  If you can play it early and sacrifice a few lands to the Stack you'll probably be able to set your opponent back enough that Welder won't wreck its effectiveness.  Since CS plays countermagic, they could counter something like a Thorn and swap that with Juggernaut or Smokestack, which wouldn't give an advantage to either.

The difference is that with Smokestack, you have to keep laying permanents to feed it. If they have a Force, they can counter any given artifact and make the swap. Whereas if I open with Shop, Mox, Juggernaut, they now have 4 turns to deal with it (5 if they chump with Welder) and I am under no obligation to walk another artifact into a counter. They only run so many robots of their own.

But if you want to talk about the relative merits versus particular cards in decks likely to be prominent in the new metagame, why not talk about Oath?  Smokestack is much better than Juggernaut here.

Depending on which version of Oath you play against, I'd often rather attempt to race them with Juggernaut before they resolve Oath. Smokestack is only effective if Oath is inactive, as the first activation will find Tidespout and then it really doesn't matter which version you're playing since you're going to lose.

Why not talk about Swords to Plowshares, a non Stax-specific staple in fish?

Because Fish is almost entirely non-existent and most builds don't even run StP maindeck anymore? Juggernaut at least is a serious threat and clock to them. They run a high enough permanent count along with Strips and possibly Stifles that they may very well break Stack's own symmetry against you.

And what happens if you have to ramp it to 2 or 3? Chances are it'll eat a significant chunk of your board in return before it finishes its job.

It's the slight asymmetry of who suffers from Stack first, and asymmetry of permanents vs. most decks, which makes you much, much more capable of taking the hit to your board position.

I already addressed the asymmetry question. I'm not so confident wagering on their inability to save up relevant permanents in-hand, while (speaking as a veteran player against Stax) abusing the ramped Smokestack with things like sitting on 1 permanent and dealing with odd numbers.

You may or may not have secured the win by the time the Smokestack dies (if the game goes this long), but you probably will have given yourself such a lead in development that you will be able to force down the win at some point.

"May or may not" and "probably" are not risks I'm willing to take in this environment, sorry. But that is just my opinion.

I will almost always scoop to an un-Fowed Smokestack on the first turn unless I have the mana and answer in hand, a reasonable way to tutor for it within the first 2 turns, or a very quick combo kill.

If you ever scoop to just (i.e., not in combination with a Crucible and other stuff) a first turn Smokestack under any circumstances, you are playing incorrectly. I don't care what your logic or reasoning is and I'm sorry if this comes off as a bit of an attack but I am just appalled by this statement. I wouldn't scoop to Shop, Mox, Smokestack with my draft deck from last night. Trying to find logic to scoop to a first turn symmetrical effect gives me a headache.

Sorry, maybe I over-stated this for dramatic effect.  I don't always scoop, but I do often lose when 1st-turn Stack hits.  The logic comes from the asymmetries in who-sacs-first and deck composition that I mentioned above.

Again, were just rehashing this argument by now so I'll just point to the summarization of symmetry.

Your life total is irrelevant until you're at or below 0.  You can still function at 5 life as well as you could at 20 unless your deck relies on trading life for other resources.  It's harder to function (for most decks) with no permanents in play.

This is predicated on ones ability to deal with Juggernaut. Absent certain supports, Smokestack deals with itself.

Now, consider what could easily happen with Smokestack:

During his first upkeep after playing the confidant, he has to decide whether to sac the confidant and keep his mana intact, or sac a mana on the assumption that the cards drawn will allow him to outlast the Stack.  If he kept a 3 mana opening draw (2 land + 1 mox), this is not an easy decision.  If he sacs the mana source and doesn't draw another, he can't even play the Trinket Mage this turn and very well may have just lost the game.  If he sacs the Confidant and plays the T. Mage (fetching out a Mox or the Lotus), his opponent ramps the Stack and plays 2-3 permanents.  He then must sac the T. Mag and a mana source, leaving him with 3 mana sources if he didn't draw another.  He'd better win this turn before the Stack leaves him with 1 permanent in play.

So he keeps one permanent in play and forces you to sacrifice another two, bringing your total up to 5 lost. This leaves you with 6 cards total between play and your hand. Assuming you sacrifice the Stack at this point, he untaps with that permanent plus whatever he played the previous turn, and a full grip. Doesn't quite sound like he's on the ropes there. He could also at any point Stifle or bounce the Smokestack and maindeck his threats, or perhaps cripple your reduced board with a Wasteland. Perhaps he would force you to keep Stack another turn to eat his entire board, leaving you on turn 6 with 5 cards between your hand and play total, then cast a land, Mox (saved off the Trinket), and another threat such as Tarmogoyf or another Confidant.

None of those leads me to see this as an optimally winning situation when you run the math from your side of the board.

My point is that Juggernaut dies to common maindeck creature removal (StP in fish) which doesn't effect Smokestack.

StP is no longer commonly maindecked and UW Fish is no longer a common deck.

I can tinker out Plat. and ignore it.

Platinum also ignores the overwhelming majority of win conditions in the format.

But it doesn't ignore Smokestack.

Nor is it particularly vulnerable to it on a developed board, at least not unless you're willing to ramp Stack to 3 or 4 and nuke your own. Platinum is a narrow example which I run other answers for for that reason.



I hope this qualifies as point-by-point enough for you. I have read each one of your posts quite thoroughly. Your argument is based upon cherry-picked scenarios and points of view. I offer that Stax is the inferior version on the simple basis that its historical predator, Control Slaver, is considered the top deck right now and sees a tremendous amount of play.

I would welcome a proof that Stax is superior from a macro outlook.

[desolutionist]

Because Fish is almost entirely non-existent and most builds don't even run StP maindeck anymore?

I think that will change.  The metagame that we've seen so far is focused on welders, robots and confidants.

[Outlaw]

I am just saying the smokestack thing because I had this exact list built for Day 2 of the 4x Workshop event with -4 smokestack, -4 thorn, +3 smokestack, +4 sphere of resistances, and +1 bazaar.  The idea was to drop a leyline or chalice and use bazaars to filter out the cards that cannot be played or extra leylines.  I decided not to play it last minute because of lack of testing.

[DarkfnTemplar]

This deck scares the shit out of me. It just seems like some hands they just win versus non-combo.

[The Boy Noodle]

After running this deck quite successfully to third place in the Central Jersey Time Walk tournament yesterday im quite pleased with the deck. . .though i did make a few slight changes to the original build which i think made the deck quite better:
-1 Plats
-1 Factory
+1 Vamp tutor
+1 Waste

I know that you probably wont agree with this change but i do have my reasons. . . starting off with plats . . it just seems that with that card you 1. never want to draw him early on 2. never want to tinker for him b/c sundering seems infinitively better 3. with no disruption in the deck and the Ridiculous amount of bounce hate on the sideboards he just seems to loose anyway to a chain/hurkyls/rebuild/oxidize/shattering spree/opposing welders/Heretic/etc . . .so i think the vamp seems better for synergy. . .allowing you to use it conditionally to either go aggro or control by fetching what you need more

The factory play might be more debatable because in my opinion its a flavor choice apart from just being a card that looks good on paper but terrible in game (plats lol) . . . the obvious factory-welder-crucible shenanigans seems pretty good with all the recurring you can do! but for starters i noticed off the bat that this deck is neither as reliant on shops or welders as much as traditional stax/aggro workshop builds (though they are both still nice . . .and broken to have) that being said you also donut run as many crucibles as traditional builds, two main. . .and then more if you want to waste slots on the SB. . .technically its three-four if you use the demonic or tinker, but both of those spells seem to have much better targets anyway. . .the fifth waste affect seemed very clutch in game and you can still hit the crucible if you really want to go on a strip lock

However the rest of the deck seems AMAZING! sans one card but im still on the fence on that one for now. . .we'll see what more playtesting brings out later. . .

Laters

[islanderboi10]

So I am a long time stax player, but I am considering switching to this because it seems to have a better game against the meta then stax right now.

Plus i get to still use my shops =D

But really I think this deck looks great.
It's been a while since I have not played Smokestacks, though.

So my question is, what should the sideboard look like?

How is maindeck Leylines?

Or how are the matches?

Thanks a bunch