Land destruction - viable or no future?

[Nostromo]

Would it be possible to construct a competitive black / red land destruction deck in Vintage? The main idea would be to disrupt the opponent's mana resources by either destroying lands in play or forcing him/her to discard lands. Victory would be achieved by dealing a total of 20+ damage through creatures / spells. Based on these specifications, I came up with the following decklist:

#------------------------------#

// Mana Sources

Black Lotus
Sol Ring - Need all the (fast) mana I can get, same goes for Mox Emerald / Pearl / Sapphire
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mox Ruby
Mox Sapphire
Badlands 4x
Sulphurous Springs 4x
Mountains 2x
Swamp 2x
Strip Mine

20 mana sources

// Land destruction

Sinkhole 4x - Only 2 mana
Rain of Tears 4x - More mana-expensive version of Sinkhole
Stone rain 4x - Only one coloured (red) mana needed
Pillage 4x - Two coloured (red) mana in the casting cost, can take care of Crucible of Worlds and Moxes as well (no need for Shatter or Gorilla Shaman)

16 Land destruction spells

// Creatures spells

Phyrexian Negator 4x - Cheap, what are the chances of getting damage?

4 Creature spells

// Other spells

Demonic Tutor
Terminate 3x - Better than Terror IMHO, can deal with the likes of Dark Confidant, Painter's Servant and Phyrexian Dreadnought
Beacon of Destruction 4x - Cheaper than Fireball with x=5, goes back to library after being cast
Hymn to Tourch 4 x - Additional disruption, let's opponent discard land cards (compared to Duress / Thoughtseize)
Browbeat 2 x - Either card advantage or damage
Simian Spirit Guide 2 x - Mana acceleration, may also be involved in damage dealing
Dark Ritual 4 x - Mana acceleration

20 other spells

Total of 60 cards

#------------------------------#

So, this is just a very crude idea of what I'm looking for. It leaves me with a lot of questions:

1) How to optimize the manabase? A lot of spells require either two red or two black mana and I'm not sure the current mana sources could handle that. I could make the deck more "black" by relying on cards like Choking Sands and Icequake.

2) Are there enough land destruction possibilities in this deck? Should I add Wasteland?

3) How to improve card drawing? Adding Wheel of Fortune is not the right option, I guess. Browbeat may show some promise, but it gives the opponent a choice and can frustrate my strategy. Should I splash blue (don't think so, personally)? Necropotence (3 black mana casting cost), Yawgmoth's Bargain and Necrologia are all to expensive or impractical. Same goes for Infernal Contract. The latter and Necropotence may be used when turning to a more black-oriented deck.

4) What cards did I overlook or should definitely be in the deck? I have some ideas myself:

Black Vise - Cheap, when opponent has not enough mana to cast spells, this card will help tremendously with the damage
Molten Rain / Choking Sands - Helps against decks relying heavily on non-basic lands
Tormod's Crypt - General GY hate, also helpful against Crucible of Words, Timetwister, Life from the Loam, Bazaar
Yawgmoth's Will - For recasting all those great spells
Juggernaut - Almost as cheap to cast as Negator, but without the "risky" disadvantage
Pithing Needle - General disruption
Gorilla Shaman - Instead of Pillage?
Infernal Contract - Cards drawn can be cast the same turn (compared to Necroptence / Necrologia), this is a big advantage considering most of the spells are sorceries

All feedback on decklist, deckdesign, manabase, sideboard etc. is more than welcome.  Looking forward to hear from you.

[reaperbong]

I'm doing some LD experimenting as a side to my normal competitive deck. I play it casual at Tourneys between rounds and sometimes it will surprise and destroy a deck I just lost to with my competitive deck.

Pretty much i'm going with 4 Sinkholes + a Crucible of Worlds - Wasteland - Strip mine engine. add a Crop Rotation and Fastbond for extra oomph. on top of that i run 3 Nether Voids + Trinisphere and 4 Mishra's Factorys and Demigod of Revenge for the kill. The demigod and Mishra's are both excellent for working around a Nether Void. I don't think you need so much LD spells if you have Voids, just getting ahead by 1 or 2 lands before you drop a Void is devastating enough.

The key card is Nether Void/Trinisphere here i believe. It's really the card that can shut down the opponent, without it and relying on spells I think it's too easy for them to work around basic LD, especially with Artifact mana and Dark Rituals ect. Without some kind of basic lock you'll never have a chance to focus on the kill, you'll just be trying to keep up with shutting down their mana. Mishra's Factorys own especially with a Crucible out and Demigod has haste and flying which makes him a powerhouse dwarfing the Negator IMO. It should be ok that he costs a bit more since ideally you should be stalling the game a lot. Also Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth kicks ass, turning all your Wastelands and Mishra's into solid black mana for the Demigod.

just a few thoughts. historically I love LD, i've had the same 4 Sinkholes since 1995 or so

[Pomaxx]

i would go B/G  instead of B/R too. Crucible waste/strip lock is essential and an auto inclusion. I would throw in some Null Rods to cut off artifact mana and if you are going with green even give Root Maze a chance.

[maatn]

Have you considered Raze (Urza's Saga common)? Big fan of it.. I would run Raze over Rain of Tears.

Adding to that theme, small pox could be nice as wel.

However, I do think landdestruction.dec won't be any good, especially in T1 because of all the artifact-mana. But I can't back this hypotheses up with tournament results or something like that.

just my2cents

[reaperbong]

Root Maze definately has potential also maybe Orb of Dreams, a 3 costing artifact - all permanants come into play tapped.

Also there was a really old combo with Relic Barrier/Winter Orb back in the day. maybe something like this could be worked in?
You mentioned a draw engine needed, we used to use 4 Relic Barriers with Winter Orbs + Howling Mines, if you don't have an Orb for your Relic Barrier chances are you can drop a Mine to use with the Relic so to deny the opponent the extra card draw making a nice little draw engine. Also this would have a bit of synergy with an Orb of Dreams since it would deny the opponent the first extra card draw. But this was back in the day so...

[Nostromo]

Thanks for all your feedback, this is more than what I've hoped for (shame on me)! Too bad all your ideas can't be put into one and the same deck.

The Crucible of Worlds-Wasteland-Strip Mine engine (possibly combined with Fastbond) sounds really good, especially since a lot of Vintage decks rely heavily on non-basic lands. This would mean I should add green instead of red to the deck. I have 4 spare Icestorms for land destruction and could add Root Maze and Crop Rotation. The only problem with switching to green might be the damage dealing abilities of the deck: I like the backup of Beacon of Destruction and the suggested Demigod of Revenge. I could add Berserk for the final blow, but I don't see too much other possibilities. Advantages of green may also come in the form of Life from the Loam and Regrowth.

So should I replace red with green or splash green? I have the appropriate dual lands and all the green spells mentioned have just one green mana in their casting cost, but I don't want to be to dependent on non-basic lands myself.

Though I like Raze (thanks for the hint, forgot that one myself), I'm not entirely sure of it's effectiveness in this deck, since I need quite some mana myself to keep the deck and damage going.

Howling Mine-Winter Orb-Relic Barrier is a nice combo (wasn't that played in 1994/1995 in the Titania's Song-Balance deck? So broken ), but I think it's too much of a hassle to set up next to the land destruction and damage dealing. Maybe I'll add Wheel of Fortune after all. Let's see:

#------------------------------#

// Mana Sources

Black Lotus
Sol Ring
Mox Emerald
Mox Jet
Mox Ruby
Badlands 4x
Wasteland 4x
Bayou 3x
Taiga 3x
Strip Mine

20 mana sources

// Land destruction

Sinkhole 4x
Ice Storm 4x
Stone Rain 3x

11 Land destruction spells

// Creatures spells

Demigod of Revenger 4x
Gorilla Shaman

5 Creature spells

// Other spells

Demonic Tutor
Fastbond
Regrowth
Berserk
Crop Rotation
Wheel of Fortune
Crucible of Worlds 2x
Terminate 2x
Beacon of Destruction 4x
Hymn to Tourch 4x
Browbeat 2x
Dark Ritual 4x

24 other spells

Total of 60 cards

#------------------------------#

Looking at this decklist, I'm not sure whether Demigod of Revenge will be an improvement over Phyrexian Negator. It becomes more clear however that the deck will only be viable in a more casual environment.

[reaperbong]

Well if you're going with green you might as well just go with ole Tarmy for beats.

[Soultaker]

I understand you are looking for feedback on your deck, however, I have a question related to the feasibility of this deck vs oath. I should preface the question by saying I'm no type 1 expert but how does this deck beat oath? Even if you have a fistful of land destruction, all it would take is for an oath player to go "any mox, forbidden orchard, oath" on any 1 turn and this deck has fallen severely behind. The matchup vs Oath almost seems like an auto-loss to me.

[nero angelo]

Hmm, I don't know if Land-Destruction would be feasible, as I haven't tested it yet.

I could win via it's reogue factor. But I don't know.


As soultaker said, Oath can smash you clean.


1st turn - Orchard + Mox + Oath = ? 2nd turn...


You might want to reduce your colors to 2, namely,  or  or 


  has:

Bounce - Anything that "slipped" under your Land Destruction is put right back where they belong. (EG. Aether Vial, Oath creatures, Goblin Lackey, Tanglewire, Metalworker)

Counters - Anything that would "try" to slip will not do so.

Draw - Drawing cards is almost always has a positive effect. More threats in hand = good.

  has:

Artifact Destruction - An early Tanglewire or Sphere of Resistance will screw you up. Especially Tangle Wire. Aether Vial will 100% screw your plan. Tried and tested.

Burn - Can kill most thinnies in the format. (Lackey, Metalworker, Welder...)

  has:

Discard - Land-D and Discard has a nice mix since you cripple the mana base AND the hand.

Tutors - Finding a card you need most is very good.

Fattie Killers - Diabolic Edict will kill even Darksteel Colossus.

  has:

Well, I have only 2 cards in mind. Crop Rotation, which will make Strip + Crucible lock more available and Fastbond, which makes you drop more than 1 Wasteland on a turn.

[Nostromo]

Thanks for your comments.

Indeed, I overlooked Tarmogoyf as a creature when turning to green. Howver, I'm not entirely sure if it would be the best creature in this deck. Negator and Demigod always have a toughness of at least 4, meaning they're out of range of most direct damage spells.

With regard to switching to other colour combinations:

  : Fixes the current lack of card drawing ability. The addition of counters is also an advantage, but I think too much land destruction and damage dealing options will be lost.

  : Strongest combination of damage dealing and land destruction, but lacks card drawing options.

  : Fastbond, Crop rotation, Tarmogoyf and lots of other playable cards. However, still no fix for the card drawing.

All in all I've figured land destruction may not be the way to go. As mentioned by Soultaker this deck will probably have to little edge against most decks out there. It's rogue factor may hamper some decks, but that won't be enough. I think I'll focus my efforts on another deck design (until I get a revolutionary insight to help this deck) and let this one rest for now. I'm also new to Vintage, so I'll go read up on current events first and see whatever type of deck suits my playing style. Once again, thanks for all your feedback.

[RobPro]

You forgot to mention blue and green, which might be viable if you run all 9 of the "strip"-effect lands and terravore/tarmogoyf for the kill. Terravore will typically be over toughness 4 if he's worth playing.

[Bill Copes]

I think land destruction spells outside of smokestack tend to be pretty poor in this format.  Half of the vintage community thinks smokestack is even subpar.  Strip effects alone can more than accomplish a mana denial lock in conjunction with disruption, utility and beats.

A suggestion, untested, on paper:

/// Beats ///
4 Vinelasher Kudzu
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

/// Disruption ///
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Thoughtsieze
3 Duress

/// Utility ///
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Exploration
1 Fastbond
1 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast (Welder / Enemy Confidants)
1 Diabolic Edict (Only answer I can think of for colossus)

/// Search + Draw ///
2 Sensei's Diving Top
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bazaar of Baghdad


/// Manas + Strips ///
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Bayou
4 Fetches
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus

The main-deck leylines help solve game 1 against ichorid and slaver, and deter grim long from being able to win via yawgmoth's will.  Confidant/top/bazaar serve as the draw engine and work nicely with the top-deck tutors.  Bazaar /top can also be combined with life from the loam to help filter dead cards.  Crucible, paired with fetches give the kudzu +2+2 every time they're activated, and also note that you can strip your own lands with ghost quarter to fulfill this as well.

This type of deck used to be too slow to be relevant, but games aren't over by turn 2 anymore.  A first turn kudzu backed by a couple of duress effects and strips could have the ability to go all the way.

Things this deck doesn't have answers for:

Empty the warrens
Goblin Charbelcher

Post board you could bring in powder kegs for the former, and null rods for the latter.  Root maze can help tremendously here as well.  Hopefully you will have the ability to duress away one of these in order to buy yourself some time.

[Anusien]

Dedicated land destruction assumes that you can do two things, which are both tricky in Vintage:
A) You can fire off LD fast enough to keep them from playing relevant spells.  You autolose to combo and almost any draw with Black Lotus for this reason.
B) After you both deplete your hands, they'll draw the wrong mix of lands and spells to win the game.  In other words, they won't draw too many more lands than you draw more LD and disruption.  It is admittedly much rarer now, but turn 1 Land, Mox, Merchant Scroll, turn 2 Land, Ancestrall Recall could end the game for you right away by drawing mana.

[Thegreatgonzo]

Well, best LD effects in vintage are : strip mine, wasteland, stifle.

Since you will loose half your coin flips, I think you need either countermagic, or bounce (removal also works), or both.
Also, you need a way to say "well, it's over, you won't cast spells anymore" the way stax does. So root maze, null rod, and life from the loam are your friends here. Chalice could work, but since you will need 1 cc spells, it's kind of narrow (especially on the draw)
Nether void is great, but overcosted. 3sphere is better in stax deck, and is restricted.
So, the best way to avoid lucky top decks (oh, look, it's black lotus, I won! Lucky me!) is to have a fast clock. Green helps you here, either with goyf or mongrel (both have huge synergies with life from the loam). So that leads us to deeznought or darkillusion, or something in between.

I once played against a deck whose purpose was to lay down nether void on turn 1 or 2, along with strip effects and gorilla shamans. It wasn't that bad. It played with tutors, rituals, and the like. In fact, it was some kind of grim long, except that the TOA was a nether void.

Well, tendrils grim long was just plain better. And stax is just a better LD deck right now.

Just my 2 cents, good luck with your deck anyway.

[Nostromo]

Indeed, keeping up with the opponent on a 1-for-1 basis (1 LD spell per land destroyed) is not getting this deck anywhere. Plus the considerable mana cost (at least for Sinkhole, at least 3 mana for others) and slow speed (sorcery) of LD spells will  probably turn a LD deck into a case of "to little, to late". The Crucible of Worlds-Strip Mine-Wasteland combo is much more effective, especially in combination with fastbond.

A faster way to thwart my opponent's strategy is using lots of other black disruption spells (Hymn to Tourach, Duress, etc.). I've found a decklist for a mono black control deck (much like the decklist posted by AbdullahTheButcher) which does exactly that (also combined with the CoW-SM-WL combo), so I think I'll use that as a starting point. And even though my signature states is my colour, I've always had a weak spot for , I hope the aforementioned deck will suit my playing style.

Thanks for all your feedback and insights, I think I became a little more up-to-date with the current Vintage environment thanks to it.

[Pomaxx]

I think land destruction spells outside of smokestack tend to be pretty poor in this format.  Half of the vintage community thinks smokestack is even subpar.  Strip effects alone can more than accomplish a mana denial lock in conjunction with disruption, utility and beats.

A suggestion, untested, on paper:

/// Beats ///
4 Vinelasher Kudzu
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant

/// Disruption ///
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Thoughtsieze
3 Duress

/// Utility ///
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Exploration
1 Fastbond
1 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast (Welder / Enemy Confidants)
1 Diabolic Edict (Only answer I can think of for colossus)

/// Search + Draw ///
2 Sensei's Diving Top
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Crop Rotation
1 Bazaar of Baghdad


/// Manas + Strips ///
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Bayou
4 Fetches
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus

The main-deck leylines help solve game 1 against ichorid and slaver, and deter grim long from being able to win via yawgmoth's will.  Confidant/top/bazaar serve as the draw engine and work nicely with the top-deck tutors.  Bazaar /top can also be combined with life from the loam to help filter dead cards.  Crucible, paired with fetches give the kudzu +2+2 every time they're activated, and also note that you can strip your own lands with ghost quarter to fulfill this as well.

This type of deck used to be too slow to be relevant, but games aren't over by turn 2 anymore.  A first turn kudzu backed by a couple of duress effects and strips could have the ability to go all the way.

Things this deck doesn't have answers for:

Empty the warrens
Goblin Charbelcher

Post board you could bring in powder kegs for the former, and null rods for the latter.  Root maze can help tremendously here as well.  Hopefully you will have the ability to duress away one of these in order to buy yourself some time.

there is a reason mana denial decks like fish do pack some Null Rods and i would suggest to include them here as well. in vintage "land destruction" is a wrong term, as it should read "mana destruction".  vintage decks play some restricted artifacts that cost 0 here and there, so it is wise to lock that source of mana as well (not to speak about other things a Null Rod does for you).

[Smmenen]

Land destruction, as such, is not really a viable strategy in Vintage, and hasn’t been in many years.   However, it is important to distinguish land destruction from general mana denial strategies, which are not only viable, but flourish.   

Here are some fundamental features of Vintage that make land destruction, as a strategy distinct from mana denial, somewhat daunting:

* The most land intensive decks in Vintage run about 1 form of non-land mana for every 2 land.   Thus, Control Slaver runs 15 lands and 10 artifact accelerants.   The MUD deck runs 18 lands and 13 artifact accelerants, including Metalworker.   In short, most land heavy Vintage decks only put about 2/3 of their mana basket into land.    Attacking their land only will not cut off their blood supply.   Far from it.

* There are many decks in Vintage that rely even less on land.   Ichorid variants run very little land.   Long decks run 11-13 lands in a 30 mana deck.   

In short, Vintage decks are not terribly land reliant and even when they are, they typically do not need more than one to get going.   Attacking land as a strategy is inherently flawed.   

[nero angelo]

^

I couldn't agree more.

But that should not stop us from innovating, right?

If you could find a place for Chalice of the Void in your deck to stop the moxen and lotus, you may have a little shot.

You knock out their land, stop their "free" mana.

Your problem now is, how do you stop the threats that are already in the table?

[Fraggle]

I would say if your goal as a vintage player would be to destroy as many lands as possible playing with land destruction spells would be good.

If your goal was to win through land destruction in a vintage format I would have to say a land destruction spell is a waste of two precious resources.

1. Your mana
2. Your card slot that the spell takes up in your deck.

When designing a deck you have to look at the cards and ask yourself the following:

Is this card worth its cost (or alternative cost if broken)

What would it take to stop it?

Is it effective enough?

Is there something better?

If you have your heart set on mana depletion (which I think is a good start) I would focus in on a cheaper more effective, more creative ways of doing so.

Look at "Weathered Wayfarer" (w) to cast 1/1 (w) search for any land if your opponent has more lands than you.  This can grab repeat ably any land in your deck. Which increases your chances of finding that precious strip mine, wasteland, Maze of Ith whatever.

Throw some Man Lands (Mishra's Factories, Mutavault, Etc.) some "wrath of god" (s), Nevinyral's Disk(s) and you have a decent deck that has many more open card slots for even more disruption.

Look for synergy.  Maze of Ith + Fastbond + Crucible of Worlds  + Zuran Orb = Infinite life and no damage from creatures. (However be wary of 4 card combos they are inherently weak)

Strip Mine + Crucible of Worlds = Infinite Land Destruction (not bad a bad combo, and it requires an answer.  If you just had a land destruction spell it wouldn't Its a one shot)

Don't underestimate the power of your tutors.  Try not putting 4 copies of a card and swap in a tutor.  Sometimes you need a different card other than the primary purpose of your deck to answer some issue.  You'll be glad you put them in.

I've been toying in some of this myself; I think there might be something to make from this.  Perhaps an academy rector or two with a Zur's Weirding buried in the deck could be the final answer.  Never let your opponent draw a mana source.  I think we can make something cool if we keep this thread going.

Or Mana Drain and bomb a Zur's, but like I said above "Is there something better?"  At that point there should be a better choice tht would just win.

Use Daze  if you are depleting your opponents mana they are going to be running close margins, you should be able to nab a spell or two.  Plus it synergies with Weathered Wayfarer's ability.  Toss some bounces and you may have a deck approaching Tier 1 MAYBE it would take some testing, and adjustments but as of right now I believe its viable. 

Rainbow Vale?  There could possibly be a crooked use there.  It would need some creative stratagies but that could kick Weathered Wayfarer into gear without slowing you down.

I'll keep working on it and keep everyone posted.