BUG Fish - Innovating Null Rod strategies in Vintage

[ErkBek]

Looks like this deck is catching on:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36587.0
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36581.0

A top 4 and a top 8. Seems good. Just a guess, but those people were probably the only 2 in the room playing the deck.

[LordHomerCat]

You know, I can support this deck Eric.  Mainly because when you design Fish decks, only a handful of people play them and they may or may not do well but regardless it's still fun for everyone.  When you come up with strong combo decks, you manage to ruin tournaments and make it coin flip land.  As much as I personally am not a fish fan, I wholeheartedly support your development of more fair decks instead of something like Pitchlong again!

[ErkBek]

Some random brainstorming. I know some people really want creatures 13 and 14 in here for the clock. Here's what I could come up with to improve the clock:

Old Man of the Sea - would be amazing in the aggro matchup, but doesn't help vs. Tinker. Not enough aggro around me to play this, but an option for other meta's.
Voidmage Prodigy - Cursecatcher and Confidants are both Wizards. Would be great in games when the mana denial plan isn't working so well.
Rootwater Thief - not 2 power, but that's not the point of this guy. He's a proactive answer to Tinker and Will. Sucks vs. aggro.

I think I like VMP best.

[waywreth]

I was the top 8 mentioned in a few posts above.  I beat 2 Painter decks (both went to game 3) and Landstill to start the swiss 3-0.  I drew into the top 8, and got the worst matchup possible - TMWA, aka any kind of aggro deck.

[Sean Ryan]

Currently, I'm trying 2 Sower of Temptation as another answer to Tinker Colossus and help in the aggro department.

What do you think of the 4 color list that runs MMage and Swords?  I like how it opens up the sideboard and helps against tier 2 decks.  The proactive disruption of Mage vs the ability to Negate whatever comes your way is something that should be explored more, and VMP would certainly help in this department.

Sean 

[zeus-online]

Some random brainstorming. I know some people really want creatures 13 and 14 in here for the clock. Here's what I could come up with to improve the clock:

Old Man of the Sea - would be amazing in the aggro matchup, but doesn't help vs. Tinker. Not enough aggro around me to play this, but an option for other meta's.
Voidmage Prodigy - Cursecatcher and Confidants are both Wizards. Would be great in games when the mana denial plan isn't working so well.
Rootwater Thief - not 2 power, but that's not the point of this guy. He's a proactive answer to Tinker and Will. Sucks vs. aggro.

I think I like VMP best.

Why not phyrexian negator? or Serendib efreet? Both of them are good beaters.
Voidmage prodigy could be pretty good though...allowing you to sac confidants and cursecatchers later in the game.

/Zeus

Edit: For some metagames Dandan could be interesting aswell....4 power for 2 mana is a good deal.

[FadeToBlack]

Some random brainstorming. I know some people really want creatures 13 and 14 in here for the clock. Here's what I could come up with to improve the clock:

Old Man of the Sea - would be amazing in the aggro matchup, but doesn't help vs. Tinker. Not enough aggro around me to play this, but an option for other meta's.
Voidmage Prodigy - Cursecatcher and Confidants are both Wizards. Would be great in games when the mana denial plan isn't working so well.
Rootwater Thief - not 2 power, but that's not the point of this guy. He's a proactive answer to Tinker and Will. Sucks vs. aggro.

I think I like VMP best.

Why not phyrexian negator? or Serendib efreet? Both of them are good beaters.
Voidmage prodigy could be pretty good though...allowing you to sac confidants and cursecatchers later in the game.

/Zeus

You already have Goyf. More beaters aren't really necessary.

Keeping low on the mana costs is also much better, as it allows you to keep mana open for Counters/Stifle or using Strip effects.

[the boogie man]

Faerie macabre is also a choice if you face a lot of ichorid.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Thoughts on Mind Harness as a sideboard card?

U, Aura
Enchant red or green creature
Cumulative upkeep 1
You control enchanted creature.

For U, you can snag a Goyf, Welder, or Hellkite Overlord.  Emphasis is on the Goyf and Welder, which are probably the most pertinent targets.  As far as I can tell, the only relevant things you can't snag with this that Threads can are Bob and Dreadnought...maybe Jotun Grunt if he makes it into Ethersworn Canonist decks.

[brianpk80]

Currently, I'm trying 2 Sower of Temptation as another answer to Tinker Colossus and help in the aggro department.

What do you think of the 4 color list that runs MMage and Swords?  I like how it opens up the sideboard and helps against tier 2 decks.  The proactive disruption of Mage vs the ability to Negate whatever comes your way is something that should be explored more, and VMP would certainly help in this department.

Sean 

Magus of the Unseen from Ice Age is a good consideration for a field heavy with Tinkers and Stax builds. 

[ErkBek]

What do you think of the 4 color list that runs MMage and Swords?  I like how it opens up the sideboard and helps against tier 2 decks.  The proactive disruption of Mage vs the ability to Negate whatever comes your way is something that should be explored more, and VMP would certainly help in this department.

Meddling Mage is in the Cursecatcher slot. I think I'd rather have Curse mostly because he comes down on every turn 1. 3 STP seems nice though. I tested Loam and wasn't a fan.

Thoughts on Mind Harness as a sideboard card?

U, Aura
Enchant red or green creature
Cumulative upkeep 1
You control enchanted creature.

For U, you can snag a Goyf, Welder, or Hellkite Overlord.  Emphasis is on the Goyf and Welder, which are probably the most pertinent targets.  As far as I can tell, the only relevant things you can't snag with this that Threads can are Bob and Dreadnought...maybe Jotun Grunt if he makes it into Ethersworn Canonist decks.

I'd rather have threads and keep it forever.

[misslehead3]

Eric, do you feel that even threads is better then control magic or even better then that sower of temptation. Sure both of those cards cost one more but they also can take DCS Oathed Creatures, Shop aggro guys, and they still can take all the same little doods that threads can

[Prometheon]

It depends on what you're concerned with. If you're terrified of Colossus (you shouldn't be) then obviously Sower/Control Magic is better, but the matchups where you really need creature advantage (other fish decks) make it very difficult to get to 4 mana, and even then a lot of lists are running Daze.

I'd stick with Threads for now.

[brianpk80]

It depends on what you're concerned with. If you're terrified of Colossus (you shouldn't be) then obviously Sower/Control Magic is better, but the matchups where you really need creature advantage (other fish decks) make it very difficult to get to 4 mana, and even then a lot of lists are running Daze.

I'd stick with Threads for now.

A good cheap answer to DSC is Weathered Wayfarer with a Maze of Ith somewhere in the maindeck.  It comes down on turn 1 and usually gets laughed at rather than countered and helps color fix (MVP in Stax/Fish matches).  If you've managed your mana base right and an opponent resolves Tinker, you don't have to worry about them countering your answer (which they usually can and will).  Instead, just tap W and the Wayfarer at EoT, tutor up the Maze.  You may get whacked once via Time Walk, but absent a Pithing Needle or double Time Walk, the threat is effectively neutralized for the whole game.   

That's nice, but this deck doesn't play White.

-Eric

[brianpk80]

That's nice, but this deck doesn't play White.
-Eric

Re: above on splashing white for sideboard options or the related list that runs Meddling Mage + Swords to Plowshares. 

[Moxlotus]

This deck is only going to get better with Shards.  Not that we gain anything, but that Null Rod becomes even more powerful than it was before.  Not to mention 2 power guys can simply kill Tezz after they search out their Vault.  With Oath and possibly Vaults running around, Krosan Grips get even better too.  Especially if Ichorid decides to take a break, you can free up around 4 slots of Crypt and jailer stuff for more Grips, Threads, and/or Trygons.

[timp]

does anyone play guttural response in the sideboard of BUG fish?

[waywreth]

I managed to Top 8, taking 5th at the recent ELD event.  If I have time I'll throw up a short report. 

The other player there playing the same deck (I played 2 annul's over stifle as the only main deck difference), took a spot in the top 4, losing to the same player in the top 8 that I did, mainly to Tinker > Sundering Titan.  In my 3-0 start, I beat a Tezz control/combo deck, beat Ichorid in two games, and beat a control Tezz deck, that sided out the Tezz combo for a variety of artifact destruction and Goyf's.  I lost in 3 games in the top 8 to this same deck and he ended up winning the tournament.

[maatn]

does anyone play guttural response in the sideboard of BUG fish?

Perhaps you could elaborate?
Which cards would you cut in the SB (what is your SB and local meta), in which m-u would you like to bring Gutteral Response to the table?
I'm not a fan of this card, it is obviously worse than REB (the destroy-part is missing), except it costs G. Could be some use in the MUC-matchup, but I don't think you are likely to win the counter-war against a deck that plays 14 counters.

@waywreth: congratulations on your finish! Nice to see you managed to cursh Ichorid.
On your choice to replace Stifle for Annul, I presume there isn't a lot of Oath in your meta? I wouldn't cut the stifles from the MD for that matchup alone. Besides that, Stifles add to you mana-denial plan, whereas Annul is i.m.h.o a more situational card than Stifle already is.I'm looking forward to your report!

[timp]

@maatn
it was just a general question
im a first time user of this deck and was just wondering if it was worth while since i have green in the deck

[maatn]

@maatn
it was just a general question
im a first time user of this deck and was just wondering if it was worth while since i have green in the deck

Ok, I understand. I thought you had a specific matchup you wanted to improve with Gutteral response, or something like that. I hope you don't get me wrong, I'm also a 'first time user' of this deck and I hope to learn as much as possible about the list (and improve the list if possible). Adding more counters changes the 'style' of the deck, in general it puts you more in the control-role. So if you had any experiences on a though matchup and found Gutteral Responses usefull, I wanted to learn more about it!

[waywreth]

@waywreth: congratulations on your finish! Nice to see you managed to cursh Ichorid.
On your choice to replace Stifle for Annul, I presume there isn't a lot of Oath in your meta? I wouldn't cut the stifles from the MD for that matchup alone. Besides that, Stifles add to you mana-denial plan, whereas Annul is i.m.h.o a more situational card than Stifle already is.I'm looking forward to your report!

Thanks!  And I think I threw my paper with the life totals away so I doubt I'll post a full report.  I've played the deck in 2 events so far, and in the first one, the stifles were mostly useless.  I think this is due to the metagame - we tend to have a ton of blue based control, and little combo.  I tried the annuls instead, expecting tons of artifacts.  There were a few artifact based decks (one took 2nd place overall), but I didn't play him.  I might actually try Extract in that slot next time to help me not lose to tinker since I have no real answer to that besides Echoing Truth.  There were two oath decks present, but I didn't play either of them.  I think with the Trygon Predators and the Krosan Grips in the board, the deck has a decent matchup.

Per my Ichorid matchup - I'm no expert on the deck, but typically don't you mull to bazaar?  If that's the case, he didn't do that in the first game, and never saw one.  The second game he didn't expect me to sideboard in Jailers, and I had two down and a hardcast Leyline by the 4th turn.

[FadeToBlack]

On your choice to replace Stifle for Annul, I presume there isn't a lot of Oath in your meta? I wouldn't cut the stifles from the MD for that matchup alone. Besides that, Stifles add to you mana-denial plan, whereas Annul is i.m.h.o a more situational card than Stifle already is.I'm looking forward to your report!

Wouldn't Annul be perhaps more optimal in the Oath matchup, as you can stop their Oaths period (rather than just a trigger)?

And for what its worth, I'm the above mentioned player that finished 4th in the same tourney. I went:

2-0 vs RG Aggro
2-1 vs Dredge
2-0 vs UW Canonist Control

Top 8 2-0 vs Tezzeret Control/Control Slaver??? (URB)
Top 4 1-2 vs Tinker --> Sundering Titan

[Sean Ryan]

So, I took this deck to the Lotus tourny in the Seattle area and suffered the deadly aggro pairing round one which sent me into the unfavorable losers bracket.  Round 2 I lost to Dredge, never being able to find one of my 4 Leylines.  I hate Dredge.  Unfortunately at least half the room was playing tier 2 or random.dec.

This version of Fish is excellent against the top tier, or any of the 'good' Vintage decks, but you simply don't have enough space in the board to have a decent match against the rest of the 2nd tier.  Ironically, I had a good match up against every single one of the decks in the top 8.  That's a risk you take playing Fish, but particularly more with this build.

This has led me to conclude that in a more diverse or less skilled meta the more traditional builds with access to white are the better choice.

On a positive note, my good friend and testing partner Pedro finally made it all the way to the finals taking home $425 in prizes. 

 

[FadeToBlack]

  Round 2 I lost to Dredge, never being able to find one of my 4 Leylines.  I hate Dredge.  Unfortunately at least half the room was playing tier 2 or random.dec.
 

Trying to take down dredge with 4 SB slots seems pretty loose.

[Moxlotus]

This version of Fish is excellent against the top tier, or any of the 'good' Vintage decks, but you simply don't have enough space in the board to have a decent match against the rest of the 2nd tier.  Ironically, I had a good match up against every single one of the decks in the top 8.  That's a risk you take playing Fish, but particularly more with this build.
 

I wouldn't say this version is more vulnerable to the 2nd tier.  Quite the opposite in my experience.  Goyf is a huge dude that can just blow through some random aggro.  Bob is a good draw engine that doesn't rely on getting through like Ninja.  I guess it depends on which pieces of disruption you chose (stifles, Trickbinds, annuls, spell snares, dazes, negates, leaks, etc.) and what exact build you are comparing it to.

If you're going to build to fight Ichorid, I'd say 6 slots are the minimum.  It's either 6-7 or 0 anti-ichorid slots for me.

[maatn]

@FadeToBlack: come to think about it, yes Annul is probably the better choice. However, would you play it over 2 Stifles main deck? It's worth testing...
Also, I would like to read more about your experiences playing BUG. For instance, you didn't seem to have much problems in the aggro/fish match up, whereas Sean Ryan posts he had some troubles with that mu.

@waywreth: That is an interesting idea. However, wouldn't Extracts in the Stifle slot just improve your match up against the tier1 decks, whereas the 2 stifles might be of more use against the (more random) tier2 decks? In the aggro match up, what are you going to extract that will make a difference?

@Sean Ryan: What a bummer! I do think playing a 'fishy' deck means you are willing to take the risk that you will lose to the more random or unexpected decks. Oh..many times I've played UW and UWB fish, that had really good mu's against tier1 decks, but lost horribly to a gobbo-deck...On many such an occasion I've sworn never to pick up those MtG cards again...
However, thanks to the fast Goyf clock (a.k.a. what Moxlotus says...), this list should have a better mu. But perhaps you could elaborate on your experiences playing BUG in Seattle? Which cards did you find useless in the aggro-match up, which cards did you board in and out G2?

[Sean Ryan]

Beyond the central cards I ran 3 negates, a single Thoughtseize, 2 Sower of Temptation, and 0 Stifle. 

Round 1 was against this random R/B/G Vial aggro build with the 5/3 jester Caping Goblin.  Game 1 we disrupt each others hand till the only relevant things left were my Confidants and his Fanatics.  Fanatic did 10 damage and I fell behind, while he accumulated more threats.  Game 2 I had the nuts: Thoughtseize, Null rod his Vial and Lotus, Bob, Darkblast, Goyf, REcall, Goyf, GG.  Game 3 I mulled to 6.  The game went long and even though I had Goyfs I ended up dying to my Bob in a close game.  This match could have gone either way, but I just felt extremely threat light compared to his deck, and needed early Goyfs to win.

4 cards against Dredge is certainly to little.  I totally wiffed on the predicting the meta as there were many Dredge decks in the room.

Here is the SB
4 Leylines
4 Kgrips
3 Threads
3 Energy Flux
1 Darkblast

How do you maintain game vs the first tier, and also Workshops/OAth/Aggro-Fish/Dredge?

 

[VsTheWorld]

So judging by the sideboards of the numerous Top 8 decks here, the consensus is that Leyline is a necessary SB inclusion? Based entirely on theory, I feel like Leyline backed up no real draw power outside of Bob, who takes until at least turn 2 to get active, forces aggressive mulligans that might put us in a tight spot if Leyline is answered. For those who have done real testing, have you found the combination of Jailer and Crypt/Relic/Extirpate to be inadequate?

[the boogie man]

I tend to like extirpate, because it can be used outside of graveyard-dependant matches, and it isn't so useless in multiples. it really can't be dealt with, and you can use it to removal integral parts of a deck, like thirst, drain, bazaar, or whatever else.