Ad Nauseam Tendrills (Spooky Nauseam) Fun with storm.

[Marske]

Little note to the mod's If this is in the wrong place please move it to the correct forum. Thanks

Intro
Looking into the list
Creating a new list
Match-ups
Conclusion

Intro

With the release of Shards of Alara, we as a vintage community get a lot of potentially cool new cards, only a few of which will prove to be powerful enough to make an impact in the vintage tournament scene.

One of the cards I think will be capable of making such an impact  is Ad Nauseam. This card enables some really wicked decks and is just made to be “broken” by us as a community. With Shards being around for a couple of weeks some people already are working on breaking this exciting new card.

So why am I writing about this? Because I too have been working on breaking Ad Nauseam; while not a “storm” player by trade I find this card to be so fun that it singlehandedly drew me into playing it at a 50 people event (The Dutch Vintage 5th   link). My poor results there can be attributed to a number of factors (which don’t belong here) but I did have a chance to form an opinion about the deck and play with it a lot, so it seemed to be the perfect ground for testing it and seeing what needed to be improved.

Looking into the list
I changed some things that seemed to fit better after goldfishing a couple of games. (added the original in italic after my changes) and made my own sideboard. The basis of the deck is that by ICBM member Jeremy Seroogy .

This is the deck I took to the tournament:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36665.new#new

ICBM-style Ad Nauseam Tendrils

4 polluted delta
1 bloodstained mire
3 underground sea
1 tropical island
1 bayou
1 swamp
1 tolarian academy
1 mox jet
1 mox emerald
1 mox sapphire
4 chrome mox
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
1 mana vault
1 lotus petal
1 black lotus
4 dark ritual
3 cabal ritual
4 ad nuaseam
1 necropotence
1 yawgmoth's will
1 brainstorm
1 chain of vapor
1 hurkyl's recall
4 pact of negation
4 duress
1 ancestral recall
1 merchant scroll
1 repeal
3 tendrils of agony
1 demonic tutor
1 demonic consultation
1 vampiric tutor
1 mystical tutor
1 time walk (Imperial Seal)
1 timetwister

// Sideboard
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Extirpate
1 Engineerd Explosives
1 Relic of Progenitus
3 Oxidize
1 Platinum Angel
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Tinker
1 Island

After playing the first two rounds I was up 4-2 in games with 2 turn 1 kills, this impressed the heck out of me and I didn’t even have to calculate anything (no critical mass calculations like with TPS or Grim). It was just as simple as casting Ad Nauseam and getting it to stick for the win.

I made some huge play errors which cost me the rest of the tournament, but this being my own event and a testing ground for this deck it was ok with me. It did, however, give me a good understanding about what worked and what didn’t work within the deck, something no amount of playtesting can provide because a tournament environment is so different.

Creating a new list
To create (or fine tune or tweak or whatever you call it) we must first look at what does and does not work in the current decklist and what we want to accomplish.

The goals of this deck are rather simple: get ±10 storm to kill the opponent.

It does this in a rather different way then “traditional” storm decks which have almost always relied on playing most of the restriction list and lots of draw7’s. This deck doesn’t play “broken unrestricted tutors” or loads of draw7’s to set up a lethal Tendrils; it just plays an instant speed “yawgmoth’s bargain” and sets up an insane number of spells without the randomness of draw7’s or the possible benefit an opponent could get from getting a fresh new 7 card hand. The only back-up plan you have is to rinse and repeat so it really is an all or nothing deck.

Let's have a look at the cards we want to play:

The Insane “Ad Nauseam”
This card is so insane that it’s an autoinclude 4-off in any version of this deck; to play less then 4 would be very wrong. It enables some very cool lines of play at the end of your opponent's turn. It’s just an instant speed yawgmoth’s bargain which wins you the game 9 out of ten times when it resolves.

Another insane card in this deck is Yawgmoth’s Will; although it isn’t as insane as in decks as TPS or Grim Long it’s still very strong. Just realize this is NOT a Yawgmoth’s Will deck; Leyline of the Void and friends don’t kill this deck. You don’t even need to waste a bounce spell on them because will is only in this deck for backup. I can also see it boarded out or even replaced with something else (sends a shock wave into the vintage community: omg a storm deck that doesn’t revolve around yawgmoth’s will !! Yay )

The Unrestricted “Chrome Mox”
This card is crucial when wanting to play Ad Nauseam and also for getting BB when playing tendrils or getting U for recall or whatever you need. It’s better then playing off color moxen because this is just your second Jet, Sapphire or Emerald if need be. The card disadvantage you get isn’t a problem at all because you are likely to have extras imprinted or otherwise “dead” cards for the current match-up that turn into not so dead cards. Playing less then four would be a mistake.

The Rituals
Because the main color of this deck is black we have access to Dark Ritual and Cabal Ritual. Chaining these together gets us a higher storm count and access to almost all the spells we need to play. These cards have been the backbone of many storm decks and are even better in this one. The correct number can be up for debate but I wouldn’t cut on the Dark Rituals. I could see some wanting to play 4 of each but I think 4 Dark Ritual and 3 Cabal Ritual is correct.

The other artifact mana
Like I said when we talked about Chrome Mox, this deck doesn’t need off color moxen or things like lion’s eye diamond. It does need the 3 on color moxen, Mana Vault, Mana crypt, Sol ring, Black Lotus and a Lotus petal to supply it with enough colorless mana and colorfixing to enable us to combo.

The Tutors and Restricted Cards
Like any combo deck (and vintage deck for that matter) we want to find the things we need ASAP without having to dig for them. Since Grim tutors are too huge a life loss when you flip them and when you play them they don’t belong in our list. I think running Mystical Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Merchant Scroll, Demonic Consultation and of course Demonic tutor is the best tutor package for this deck.

Sure we can run Imperial Seal but I don’t see the need for more then five tutors in this deck because the four Ad Nauseams themselves show you everything you would ever need. (if played right )

With this tutor package we get 4 tutors that can grab our Tendrils when going combo or Ad Nauseam and otherwise broken stuff  we need to setup the combo. Obviously Merchant scroll gets us Bounce, Draw (Ancestral,BS) and counters. Demonic Consultation is the tricky tutor to play and usually gets you Ad Nauseam, Dark Ritual or Tendrils of Agony. Naming something like Black Lotus can be done but it’s a risky play which can lose you the game (be aware of this when playing with DC).

This also means we are going to run Ancestral (DUH !) and a brainstorm for reasons I’m not going to explain because we all know them already. I can see some people wanting to add cards like Ponder, Strategic Planning, Impulse and so on but I don’t really see the need for more draw when your main goal is resolving a spell that grabs you 10+ cards.

The Protection
Now that we got playing Ad Nauseam out of the way we need a way to have it resolve to win us the game. To accomplish this I think we must run some protection to check if we can safely play Ad Nauseam and some protection against some shenanigans while going combo (people floating mana with a top active that kinda stuff). I suggest running no less then 10 “counters” in our Ad Nauseam list. While this number is highly debatable I think this should be enough.

So with this info I suggest we play Pact of Negation to protect our combo while we are comboing and supplement that with Duress and Thoughtseize to ensure we can  combo. Running less then four pacts seems wrong because it’s never dead (see Chrome mox) and you want to draw it. I do not suggest running more then two Thoughtseize because of the lifeloss which with could complicate the combo.

This leaves us with some pesky permanents in play (Thorn, Sphere, DSC, Platz, etc). With our protection aimed at getting our combo online we can’t counter threats our opponent plays so we need to deal with these in another way.

Chain of Vapor is great in this deck because you can always bounce your own moxen for storm and more mana and also get rid of any other opposing threat. Running this as a one of main (and possibly one in the sideboard but we will get to that later) is a good idea.

Now we don’t want to have just one spell to handle all this and we may be facing more than one permanent we want gone. For this situation I suggest we run Hurkyl’s recall because the threats we want gone are almost always going to be artifacts. The right number between maindeck and sideboard can be meta dependent but I do think you should run at least one (because bouncing your own artifacts for storm is also good). Rebuild does cycle but also gets you one extra point of damage when flipped with an Ad Nauseam so it’s not good enough to include.

Also I suggest we play Repeal maindeck; this card can bounce anything (except a colossus but even that’s possible and on the other hand that’s why we got chain / hurkyl’s right ?!) and it has synergies with our tutor package (Mystical,Vamp). While we combo this gives plus two storm and a card in the worst case, and plus four storm  (tap mox for topdeck tutor, repeal mox, draw tutored card play mox and  play tutored card) in the best case. This seems to be enough reason to include this in the maindeck. I don’t see this card being a four of but one or two should be main.

The Mana
Well we still are going to need mana to cast all these spells and twelve lands seem to be enough to run the deck. You want black and blue mana so you are going to run Underground seas and with our artifact count not running Tolarian academy would be a mistake so it’s also in. We also will need some green for our sideboard (or some red if you choose) so a Bayou and a Tropical are good. Finally, we need a basic swamp to avoid dying to wastelands immediately.

To help thin the deck and get this mana into play you want 5 fetchlands that grab you at least a swamp or an island -- so, Polluted delta and Bloodstained mire our the best choices.

The Fallen
During all this testing and tinkering and playing this deck a couple of cards didn’t live up to what I expected them to do. This doesn’t mean they are bad or don’t belong in the deck; it just means I don’t like them at the moment and wanted to play other things. Probably some of these things will make their way back into the deck or sideboard  but for now they have fallen.

Necropotence
Although this card is very good and will win you the game about 90% if the times you can resolve it turn one I decided to cut it. Without FoW to back up a turn one necro the chances of getting it into play are very small. When you get into turn 2/3 protecting and finding your Ad Nauseam are more important then playing Necro so you probably imprint it on a chrome mox. I would rather have another disruption spell in this spot.

Time Twister
This card was the only draw7 this deck played and I cut it because without Necro Time Twister becomes a bit less good. We don’t need draw7’s to combo and if you need a draw seven turn one to win it means you were better off taking a mulligan. I do see this coming back into the deck without necro because I had a real hard time cutting it from the deck, but for now it’s out.

Imperial Seal
I think running 5 tutors is enough so I decided to cut one of the two tutors that takes 2 life. Vampiric has the edge because it’s an instant so this went out. I never really missed having a tutor so I don’t see any reason to play this again in the near future.

The Sideboard
I think we would want to run at least some artifact destruction and some combo protection in the sideboard so you could splash Green, Red or White as our third color. Green gives us Xantid Swarm and Oxidizes and things like tarmogoyf for a backup plan while red gives us Reb and shattering spree. White gives us disenchant, STP and Orim’s Chant.

I think this is something that’s rather open and meta dependent I’ll let you guys figure the best sideboard out for yourselves. I’m running the green splash because I think Xantid Swarm is the best protection this combo can have together with Oxidize to handle artifacts.

So now we have talked over the entire deck and sideboard so I present you with my list.

Ad Nauseam Tendrils (Spooky Nauseam)

The Insane
4 Ad Nauseam
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

The Mana
4 polluted delta
1 bloodstained mire
3 underground sea
1 tropical island
1 bayou
1 swamp
1 tolarian academy

The Artifact mana
1 mox jet
1 mox emerald
1 mox sapphire
1 black lotus
4 chrome mox
1 mana crypt
1 sol ring
1 mana vault
1 lotus petal

The Rituals and Draw
4 dark ritual
3 cabal ritual
1 brainstorm
1 ancestral recall

The Disruption
4 pact of negation
4 duress
2 Thoughtseize
2 repeal
1 chain of vapor
1 hurkyl's recall

The tutors
1 merchant scroll
1 demonic tutor
1 demonic consultation
1 vampiric tutor
1 mystical tutor

The Kill
3 tendrils of agony

Match-ups
Let's handle some match-ups. This deck being rather new and not established. it could be some of this stuff is a bit off. My apologies in advance if something proves to be wrong. I’m going to handle match-up by “engine” and not by deck name because decks like Slaver / Painter play almost identical. So here we go:

Drain decks
Drain decks all have a great mid to late game and a poor early game. This means it’s good for us because we want to win within the first 2/3 turns of a game. Painter has a bit more of an edge against “traditional combo” because of the maindeck REB but against us they lose this because REB does nothing against us until painter hits. (we will want to be winning before that happens and probably are.) Depending on which hate they sideboard games 2 and possible 3 will be a bit more difficult but will still be in our advantage.

Decks like Drain Tendrils can be a real pain but we are faster and  you should always board in things like Swarm and Chant if you have them.

Fish
I say fish but as we all know this is a name for a very large variety of decks. “Traditional Combo” can have a hard time playing against these decks and so can we. We do have the advantage that cards like Null rod and Stifle don’t harm us as much as they do a TPS / Grim Long player because we can easy combo without artifact mana and we play more then one tendrils You should bring in cards like Engineered Explosives and Massacre (global creature removal) for this match-up or a backup plan involving big creatures (Goyf).

Workshop
Decks with workshops have always been the arch enemy of the combo player and we are no different. You have a chance but it’s not our best match-up. Your boarding plan should involve artifact destruction and/or bounce and if you play them goyfs. If you face a workshop combo or aggro deck your chances have improved because they don’t tend to play many “Sphere’s” and comboing out is easier.

Ichorid
We are faster with our combo and their normal hate (Leyline, Chalice at 0,etc) is useless against us because we don’t need the mana from our moxen or our graveyard to combo. After boarding you should certainly board in some graveyard removal and disruption. Pacts tend to be useless so they can be boarded out. I suggest boarding in some variation of Pithing needles, Tormod’s Crypts, Extirpates or Jailers if you run them.

Conclusion
This deck has a lot of potential and the list of possibilities is endless. I do hope we get to enjoy Ad Nauseam for a long time (no more restrictions please) because this is not too broken but still loads of fun to play with and against.

I’ll leave you guys with some questions and my view on them.

Is this the new standard in combo ?
I don’t know; what I do know is this deck is more consistent and resilient to the normal combo hate than TPS or Grim Long, which says a lot.

Does this mean that the community has broken Ad Nauseam ?
This could very well be the case. There is still lots of room for tweaking the deck but I do think we have found a “shell.”

It’s a real fun deck to play and I think vintage has gotten a new nut kicking card !

PS.
I would like to thank Jeremy Seroogy, Richard Shay and of course the rest of Team The Dutch for their information and discussions on this great new deck.

[breed]

Thanks for these long explanations of Ad Nauseam deck. Your final decklist seems well builded!

[Liam-K]

Discounting REB completely is an error because it can neutralize Pact of Negation.  It's pretty bad on its own but if you think they have force you might want to take the time to duress.  Seems obvious I know but when everything that matters is black it's easy to forget your protection is still vulnerable.

I had serious difficulties with 4 chrome mox.  Too often I needed the mana but couldn't spare a card to imprint.  Too often a colourless mana would have been fine.  2 came out and 2 off-colour mox went in.  I've been much happier with this configuration because I feel like the off-colour moxes help resolve Nauseam more than the Chromes by giving you access to another card.  The chromes are better once you're drawing cards with Naus but that phase of the game needs less help.

I would really not cut imperial seal.  The deck needs a fairly specific hand configuration to do absolutely anything and essentially needs to have that configuration by the second turn.  Tutors make an opener lacking one critical element keepers.  I'd cut a cabal ritual.  Count the times just having the ritual would have been better vs. the times you don't mull because it's not a ritual.  I think you'll agree.

I personally fell out of love with merchant scroll because I disliked the implied UU.  The_spooky_kid says he usually uses it to get Pact which kind of makes me want to try it again in a different mindset but really I think it just only finds one of three key components when you're trying to sculpt a hand (the other two being ritual/lotus and nauseam), the one with the highest count anyway and the one you're most likely to do without at that.  Scroll -> ancestral feels like a desperation play with this deck and while finding bounce is good I almost think if that's your arguement just add another Chain.

I feel like 0 ponder is a mistake.  Unlike scroll, it seeks whatever component you're missing and gets you several turns closer when you whiff.  I've liked ponder so much I've been testing an Impulse.

I personally like Twister, but I don't feel it is essential.  This deck is not so hot at setting up Yawgwill and I like being able to fall back on Twister when I've been dealt enough damage that I fear Nauseam will prove unreliable; having Twister in the deck can also be nice when you have a tutor and need to make a second attempt but have blown your one shot mana. 

Necro increases the bomb density which, considering Yawgwill is unreliably good in openers here, is really low.  However Pact is useless for protecting first turn Necro and also for defending against Duress once Necro hits, second turn necro always feels weak and baiting with it almost turns it into a glorified duress that costs a ritual and can backfire horribly.  So maybe it's a false sense of security.  However it keeps winning me games in testing.  It's also a decent tutor target when you've mulled down to a small hand and can't afford 5 mana.


edit: oh yeah, repeal.  This card seemed like the hotness in theory but I've just never found I have the mana to use it on anything that's not a mox, or found ramping storm with it to be relevant.  It has occasionally mana fixed for me, but Chain can do that too, as well as generate more mana and more storm if you're prepared to burn land and bounce anything for U, even both at once (I feel like such an ass chaining a mox, saccing a land to bounce another, then saccing a land to bounce a chalice).  The card draw has been relevant exactly once.  I'm not ready to condemn the card but I'd like to hear about others' experiences.

[Marske]

Discounting REB completely is an error because it can neutralize Pact of Negation.  It's pretty bad on its own but if you think they have force you might want to take the time to duress.  Seems obvious I know but when everything that matters is black it's easy to forget your protection is still vulnerable.

I don't see REB as such a big threat against this deck this doesn't mean you don't have too watch out for it. Sure it can stop your recall, Pact, Scroll, Mystical and what not. But it can't stop your bombs from hitting if it's the only counterspell they have.

I had serious difficulties with 4 chrome mox.  Too often I needed the mana but couldn't spare a card to imprint.  Too often a colourless mana would have been fine.  2 came out and 2 off-colour mox went in.  I've been much happier with this configuration because I feel like the off-colour moxes help resolve Nauseam more than the Chromes by giving you access to another card.  The chromes are better once you're drawing cards with Naus but that phase of the game needs less help.

I never had problems with the 4 chrome mox. Which spare cards don't you want to imprint ? If you have a tendrills (and don't have on in the grave or removed) you can imprint it for black. Same go's for pacts and so forth. I agree with you on the chrome moxen being better when the naus has resolved though.

I would really not cut imperial seal.  The deck needs a fairly specific hand configuration to do absolutely anything and essentially needs to have that configuration by the second turn.  Tutors make an opener lacking one critical element keepers.  I'd cut a cabal ritual.  Count the times just having the ritual would have been better vs. the times you don't mull because it's not a ritual.  I think you'll agree.

The deck does need a ritual some mana, protection and a tutor or ad nauseam to go. (this configuration isn't that hard) How does imperial seal help set this up ? It's a sorcery so other then playing it during your turn and waiting or playing a repeal, BS, recal (which is counterable) how do you get the benefit ? I cut the imperial seal during testing because to often I would find myself having a hand with the seal and wanting it to be something else (a vamp would have been fine because that's an instant) for 6 mana your could vamp a lotus and play ad nauseam in your opponents turn (to name a play) seal does nothing when trying these kinda things.

Regarding Merchant scroll and Ponder I could see Ponder coming into the deck replacing the scroll. For now I like the scroll because it grabs pacts, repeals and everything else you would want. Like I said there is still more room for tweaking. Also I like the twister but I didn't feel like it added that much more to this deck and I wanted to fit in some more disruption so I cut it, I could see it coming back in or somebody who would rather play the twister.

Necro increases the bomb density which, considering Yawgwill is unreliably good in openers here, is really low.  However Pact is useless for protecting first turn Necro and also for defending against Duress once Necro hits, second turn necro always feels weak and baiting with it almost turns it into a glorified duress that costs a ritual and can backfire horribly.  So maybe it's a false sense of security.  However it keeps winning me games in testing.  It's also a decent tutor target when you've mulled down to a small hand and can't afford 5 mana.

What you are saying here is exactly the reason why I cut necro. It's only good for fixing small hands after mulling or baiting a counter. In your testing would an Ad Nauseam have won you those games also ? Because if it would have it would mean necro wasn't needed. Don't get me wrong I respect the power of the skull but I don't see it as an auto include in every storm deck ever made. Certainly not in a storm deck that revolves around an instant speed bargain

[Liam-K]

I had serious difficulties with 4 chrome mox.  Too often I needed the mana but couldn't spare a card to imprint.  Too often a colourless mana would have been fine.  2 came out and 2 off-colour mox went in.  I've been much happier with this configuration because I feel like the off-colour moxes help resolve Nauseam more than the Chromes by giving you access to another card.  The chromes are better once you're drawing cards with Naus but that phase of the game needs less help.

I never had problems with the 4 chrome mox. Which spare cards don't you want to imprint ? If you have a tendrills (and don't have on in the grave or removed) you can imprint it for black. Same go's for pacts and so forth. I agree with you on the chrome moxen being better when the naus has resolved though.

It wasn't specific cards, it was more just I needed every black card in my hand and needed chrome mox to produce B or it wasn't better than pearl.  A problem greatly excaberated by having 2 chrome mox in hand, which can easily lead to 1 being totally unable to produce mana without shutting off your hand.

I would really not cut imperial seal.  The deck needs a fairly specific hand configuration to do absolutely anything and essentially needs to have that configuration by the second turn.  Tutors make an opener lacking one critical element keepers.  I'd cut a cabal ritual.  Count the times just having the ritual would have been better vs. the times you don't mull because it's not a ritual.  I think you'll agree.

The deck does need a ritual some mana, protection and a tutor or ad nauseam to go. (this configuration isn't that hard).

See that's not how I see it.  I look at it as you need nauseam, protection, and a ritual to go, but imperial seal can take the place of any of those 3 things.  If you have pact, nauseam, tendrils, land, mox, cabal ritual, your hand is awful.  If that cabal ritual is an imperial seal, you seal for lotus and cast nauseam with backup next turn.  You could similarly have seal instead of cabal ritual in a hand with no protection and wait a turn in order to not lose to fow.  In the instances where cabal ritual would have been fine, you're slowed by a turn, but certainly not shut out.  It's hard to sculpt your hand by ripping off the top and you want to try and win by turn 2, seal enables a lot of hands.

Necro increases the bomb density which, considering Yawgwill is unreliably good in openers here, is really low.  However Pact is useless for protecting first turn Necro and also for defending against Duress once Necro hits, second turn necro always feels weak and baiting with it almost turns it into a glorified duress that costs a ritual and can backfire horribly.  So maybe it's a false sense of security.  However it keeps winning me games in testing.  It's also a decent tutor target when you've mulled down to a small hand and can't afford 5 mana.

What you are saying here is exactly the reason why I cut necro. It's only good for fixing small hands after mulling or baiting a counter. In your testing would an Ad Nauseam have won you those games also ? Because if it would have it would mean necro wasn't needed. Don't get me wrong I respect the power of the skull but I don't see it as an auto include in every storm deck ever made. Certainly not in a storm deck that revolves around an instant speed bargain

Well minor nitpick but while Nauseam would likely have been fine in place of the skull most of the time when the skull wins for me, I can't cut it for a fifth nauseam.

[Marske]

See that's not how I see it.  I look at it as you need nauseam, protection, and a ritual to go, but imperial seal can take the place of any of those 3 things.  If you have pact, nauseam, tendrils, land, mox, cabal ritual, your hand is awful.  If that cabal ritual is an imperial seal, you seal for lotus and cast nauseam with backup next turn.  You could similarly have seal instead of cabal ritual in a hand with no protection and wait a turn in order to not lose to fow.  In the instances where cabal ritual would have been fine, you're slowed by a turn, but certainly not shut out.  It's hard to sculpt your hand by ripping off the top and you want to try and win by turn 2, seal enables a lot of hands.

If that cabal ritual is a seal and you play it you are risking getting it counterd and then you stall for a couple of turns I don't see how this is less risky then relying on a topdeck in this case if you only grab a second Cabal Ritual or Dark Ritual or even in the best case a lotus you can go the chances of topdecking something like this are not that small. But I do see your point.

Well minor nitpick but while Nauseam would likely have been fine in place of the skull most of the time when the skull wins for me, I can't cut it for a fifth nauseam.

To bad he no really wouldn't you rather have extra protection for the four Ad Nauseam you have then adding necro ?

[Liam-K]

See that's not how I see it.  I look at it as you need nauseam, protection, and a ritual to go, but imperial seal can take the place of any of those 3 things.  If you have pact, nauseam, tendrils, land, mox, cabal ritual, your hand is awful.  If that cabal ritual is an imperial seal, you seal for lotus and cast nauseam with backup next turn.  You could similarly have seal instead of cabal ritual in a hand with no protection and wait a turn in order to not lose to fow.  In the instances where cabal ritual would have been fine, you're slowed by a turn, but certainly not shut out.  It's hard to sculpt your hand by ripping off the top and you want to try and win by turn 2, seal enables a lot of hands.

If that cabal ritual is a seal and you play it you are risking getting it counterd and then you stall for a couple of turns I don't see how this is less risky then relying on a topdeck in this case if you only grab a second Cabal Ritual or Dark Ritual or even in the best case a lotus you can go the chances of topdecking something like this are not that small. But I do see your point.

Wait, tutoring is the same as topdeck + pray because the other guy might have counterspells?  Your arguement seems a bit of a stretch.

I toss back more hands for having no gas than for anything else, this is the major reason for my including both Seal and Necro.  Another thoughtseize or cabal in my hand doesn't help me cast a nauseam I don't have.  Seal is better than necro for being cheaper, more flexible, and less vulnerable.  Necro's debateable, I may test without it.

[Marske]

Wait, tutoring is the same as topdeck + pray because the other guy might have counterspells?  Your arguement seems a bit of a stretch.

Not exactly what I'm saying, I said I don't see why playing a topdeck tutor is less risky then waiting for the topdeck. The hand you gave as an example could also be just a mulligan if your so afraid of running out of gas. I have kept remarkable hands with this deck that turned into a turn 2 kill. (maybe it's just my dislike of Seal being a sorcery thats sparking this discussion) I'll test this some more.

Not to be the one that says: "try my deck it's the best" but have you goldfished or played on MWS with the list I suggested or is your response based on a logic I do not yet follow or grasp ?

[Nehptis]

Great mini-primer.  Questions:

1) If you had 1 free spot left in the deck which card would you add?

2) Why not a Chrome Mox / Mox Diamond split?  2/2 or 3/1? 

3) COTV @ 1. Is it a big issue?  If so, then what's the plan?  COV and Repeal are cut off.  And post board even Oxidize is nixed.  Is Hurkly's the only plan / best plan?

[Marske]

@Nehptis,
If I had one free spot in the deck I think I would add the Twister back into the deck this card I had some problem with cutting because it did help me out sometimes. This brings with it obv the problem of raising the manacost of the deck and making the thoughtseizes worse. So maybe I would just add a off-color mox.

Mox Diamond isn't that good in a deck with only 12 land and no way of recurring them. Chrome mox is better and if you want more mana you could also add the 2 off-color moxen before adding something like mox diamand.

COTV @ 1 can be an issue when it's played turn 1. But this means you still have all your 0 mana artifacts for mana so you can play around it. If you get turn 1 chalice at 0 you got all your rituals for playing around that. if you get turn 1 COTV on 0 and on 1 your basically screwed until you find the Hurkyls but this is the case with every storm deck I guess. The only problem is turn 1 Chalice on 0 and something like Sphere, Thorn. in this case we got Chain, Repeal, Recall and after sideboarding Oxidize and additional Hurkyls

I hope I answered your questions.

Marske

[Nehptis]

I "sleeved up" this version and the Meandeck version of AD to test them out.  I guess my expectations were much higher than they should have been.  They were two fold:

1) I thought AD combo was going to feel like the old Long variants.  It does not.  AD combo is good.  But, no where near as broken as the original Long decks were.  My fault for hyping AD combo in my own mind.

2) I was starting to believe some of the posts saying that AD is like an "instant version of Bargain".  I can definitively say, NOT EVEN CLOSE.  If you are at 15 life with Bargain in play you can pretty much blindly draw 10-12 cards without much of a concern about not being able to win or getting too low on life.  With AD, every draw must be carefully considered.  Your life falls fast and as that happens your avenues to victory become more constrained.

I'm happy to see that AD has sparked some renewed innovation in storm combo.  It seems that recently storm combo has leveled out and even been diluted in some ways.  (Meaning a lot of games 2 and 3 are won on the backs of Goyf.) Obviously I'm a purist!

[Marske]

1) I thought AD combo was going to feel like the old Long variants.  It does not.  AD combo is good.  But, no where near as broken as the original Long decks were.  My fault for hyping AD combo in my own mind.

I never played the "old long variants" so I can' t tell if this is as good or better. AD combo has some benefits over playing TPS or grim long imho.

2) I was starting to believe some of the posts saying that AD is like an "instant version of Bargain".  I can definitively say, NOT EVEN CLOSE.  If you are at 15 life with Bargain in play you can pretty much blindly draw 10-12 cards without much of a concern about not being able to win or getting too low on life.  With AD, every draw must be carefully considered.  Your life falls fast and as that happens your avenues to victory become more constrained.

Most of my draws with this deck tend to get me about 10-12 cards actually going down from 16-17 life to about 7/6 with Bargain this wouldn't have been a lot lower (16-17 minus 10-12 gets you around 7-5 life) so maybe it's because this deck plays rather different then the old long variants or it's just my playstyle with it. The advantage you have here is you can AD down to 5 life and still comfortable combo out (with grim tutors this is something of a risk I read somewhere 7 life is the preferred amount)

Now to get a bit back on the topic what did you miss most with this list compared to meandecks list ? (haven't sleeved theirs up yet) what would you change if anything ? I'm glad people are giving this list (and obv meandecks list too) a try because I really think AD has a lot of potential.

[nineisnoone]

The big debates seem to be:
1) # of Tendrils
2) # of Cabals
3) Repeal or Chain of Vapor?
4) Pact of Negation?

I think 1 and 2 are basically tied together.  If you want to run the 4th Tendrils, you want to run the 4th Cabal.  It's difficult to say which is better.  Running the 4th Tendrils makes it more likely to get a Tendrils than an Ad (4 versus 3 in the deck).  You basically don't want to draw into double Ad Nasueam without a Tendrils, you've taken a lot without drawing any business.  You don't really mind multiple Tendrils draws as its fairly unlikely that you won't be able to cast some worthwhile amount of storm, if not fatal.  Taken at that, I don't think the disadvantages outweigh the advantages of the 4th Tendrils.

However, your list also runs Repeal.  This gives you a way to draw into a Tendrils with your top deck tutors.  Not doing the math (but let's just assume what I say is right) but assuming that you are guaranteed to draw into at least one of your top deck tutors if you haven't drawn into Tendrils, you have 2 more pseudo-Tendrils in Repeal.  This weighs for Spooky.

However, Chain is better bounce than Repeal.  Notably it's better against Spheres, Cannonist, Teeg, and Pillar where you have to Repeal at 4-3 mana.  This is where it flips back to Meandeck. 

I don't have premium so I don't specifically know why there is no Pact in Meandeck.  I can see the reasoning for both.  Duress gives you the ability to know what you need out of your Ad Nauseam draw, whereas Pact you just have to go for the gusto.  Pact does get hit by Chalice @ 0, which is the more likely turn 1 play, and can be REB'd.

I would go with 4x Tendrils and the 2x/1x Chains/Hurkly's  configuration for bounce.  Chain is better than Repeal for bounce, generates storm just as well, and the loss of the Vamp-Repeal for Tendrils play isn't that bad with the 4th Tendrils in the deck.  And it isn't worth having to pay 4 to Repeal a Sphere off the board. 

Pact, I'm not sure about.  Storm is already great against counter spells.  You can protect your Ad Nauseum's sure.  But you can't protect them at instant speed (since you can't win at instant speed).  So, EoT Pact's are in both cases unprotected.  Post-Ad Nauseam, the mana cost to Duress/Thoughtseize is probably irrelevant.  Pre-Ad Nauseum, Duress let's you pass the turn if necessary while Pact forces you to win now, however Duress requires another mana.   I can see the arguments for both.  Personally, I lean more towards yes to Pact.

[The_spooky_kid]

It's nice to see all of the discussion that has risen from the new set shards of alara.  I agree with many that it is honestly the greatest set since mirrodin for vintage in the playable card pool it has given us.  I'd like to to thank steve on sharing his article on meandeck ad nauseam.  I would like to share my opinion on the emergence of this new combo deck. The above list was the poster's own version of the deck, not my own. Below is my list and I'll explain my given card choices.

ICBM Ad Nauseam Combo

4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Chrome Mox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
4 Dark Ritual
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Ad Nauseam
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's will
1 Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Pact of Negation
4 Duress
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Repeal
3 Tendrils of agony
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Timetwister


SB:
1 tropical island
4 xantid swarm
3 oxidize
1 engineered explosives
1 massacre
1 yixlid jailer
2 tormod's crypt
1 tinker
1 platinum angel

This is my current list.  I have been playing it quite a bit and I must say i have been pretty happy with how the deck has been performing.  Now I'll go through all of my card choices.  I currently have 12 lands in the deck. 1 basic swamp and 1 basic island, are definitely needed.  Although the blue count in my deck is lower than some, not having to worry about wastelands makes the deck much stronger.  I run 12 lands not 10 or 11 like some people have been suggesting through pms and such because in my area (midwest/ WI) there are a lot of fish and worshop decks. I at times would like to run a second swamp in the main over the bayou, but cannot fit the second land into the sideboard.  If shops are non existant in your area, it may be safe to cut it down to 11, but i wouldn't go any lower than that.  Secondly 4 chrome mox for me is not even a question.  Even before "going off" via ad nauseam or whichever path you choose chrome mox is excellent at fixing your mana.  At times it can clutter up your hand, but it makes the deck incredibly more consistant.  I run the emerald main because I have heavy green in my sideboard.  If you choose not to run the green, this can easily become the 4th cabal ritual.   

I choose not to run the off color moxen (pearl and ruby) because all they offer is the addition of 1 colorless mana at the cost of 1 card. With the exception of ad nauseam the deck doesn't have a whole lot of ways to draw cards, andI would much rather draw a ritual effect a lot of the time than an off color moxen.  I also choose not to run lion's eye diamond because this deck really isn't a graveyard deck. black lotus, sapphire, jet, mana crypt, mana vault and sol ring are auto includes.  I choose to run 3x copies of tendrils of agony and I strongly believe that 3 is the correct number. 9 times out of ten you only want to see one of this card.  With necropotence it doesn't hurt to see a second copy.  I think that running 4 of them is a little excessive in a build like this.  When going off via ad nauseam you almost always never want to see more than one copy of tendrils flip.  When running tendrils as a 4 of you will most likely hit 2 of them more often than once.

Necropotence, timetwister, imperial seal  are all great cards in this deck.  These cards were made for storm combo.  While necropotence doesn't always fit the cast ad nauseam and win linear path the deck can take, Its an extremely powerful card that I would auto include in any combo deck.  Its extremely easy to turn 1 or even turn 2 this card, fill your hand up and win the game the next turn or in a few turns.  Timetwister is an absolute power house.  It draws you seven cards and shuffles graveyards into libraries. shuffling an opponents graveyard into there library is great verse things like ichorid or a deck that abuses the graveyard.  Imperial seal while it is weaker than say vampiric tutor, it will find you one of your componenets you need to win, whether it be ad nauseam, mana, or protection.  It also helps find late game yawgmoth's will to help you recover if needed.

Pact of negation verse thoughtsieze has been another issue many people have been asking themselves.  I personally have been happy with pact of negation.  It offers free protection when attempting to going off, and it doesn't cost any life points.  I at first ran 4 thoughtsieze in the main, and after using one or 2 of them, the 2- 4 life points can mean not drawing anywhere from 2-5 cards on average.  I think the only time I would prefer to have thoughtsieze over pact of negation would be against U/W fish or any deck that runs eithersworn canonist/ meddling mage.  This is honestly one of the scariest matchups for the ad nauseam decks.  It locks you down like stax does, and puts you on a timely clock.  Each point of life lost makes ad nauseam weaker.  In matchups that feature such creatures etc thoughtsieze is better.   Mid game you can counter things and pay for pact of negation during your upkeep.

The inclusion of merchant scroll has been controvercial in this deck.  I think its important to be able to find your pact of negations when necessary , a bounce effect, mystical tutor,  or ancestral recall.  Tutoring for protection on turn 1 is a common play this deck does.  I have a few times I've found myself casting merchant scroll for mystical tutor then mystical tutored at upkeep to find ad nauseam or a dark ritual.   I currently have 1 chain of vapor, 1 repeal, 1 hurkyl's recall, and merchant scroll in my maindeck.  Merchant scroll wouldn't be included in the deck if I did not run the pact of negations.  It probably would just be the the 4th bounce spell. Is repeal worse than chain of vapor?  I honestly think that it is a coin toss.  Being able to cantrip the repeal has mattered at times.    In the meandeck version of the deck they have 4 maindeck chain of vapor.   Many times when going off you don't need to ever use a bounce spell.  Against stax being able to find your hurkyl's recall can be extremely important.  Hurkyl's recall will get you out of many situations that chain of vapor cannot, and at the cost of 1 extra mana.  It can enable as much storm by bouncing your own artifacts as chain of vapor. No matter the way you look at it, stax is a pretty hard matchup.   

In my sideboard i have an extra green source and xantid swarms.  This is an awesome sideboard card for the deck, and I often thought about maindecking it.  It is hands down been the mvp when testing online and in tournaments.  I also have less emphasis on Ichorid in my sideboard, because in my area very few ichorid decks show up to tournaments.  Myself and steve both agree that yixlid jailer and tormod's crypt are the decks best defenses against ichorid.  I have tinker and platinum angel in my sideboard.  These also would get boarded in against the ichorid match, and against many aggro decks.  Platinum angel also has great sinergy with pact of negations that I run in the maindeck.  The other sideboard slots are kind of up in the air depending on your metagame.  I include oxidize in my sb which is great at handling sphere of resistance, null rods, and ethersworn canonists.  I also have engineered explosives, which sounds strange, but is excellent at taking care of pesky artifacts and creatures, and I also have 1 massacre in the sideboard dedicated to the fish matchup, because meddling mages, and ethersworn cannonists have been bigger in my area.

I would not include time walk into the deck, unless you have some sort of man plan on your sideboard.  When testing this card it almost always was just a cantrip, or imprinted on a chrome mox.  Overall I hope that helped answer some of your questions, and I hope people give this new deck a try.  I have had some success with the deck, and I am sure you will to.


-Jeremy

[The Atog Lord]

Spooky,

Thanks for that great post. I learned quite a bit from it. I have a few questions, if you don't mind.

First, I noticed the lack of Bob in your sideboard. Did you decide against him? In my testing, I found him to be too slow to matter, but I wanted to hear your take on it.

Second, does having Xantid Swarm in the sideboard justify Time Walk in the maindeck? Given that the card immediately replaces itself for no mana, I find it difficult to justify its exclusion. It's basically like running one fewer card in the deck, while being amazingly powerful with a creature on the table.

Have you considered Force of Will in the sideboard? That would let you be able to stop early Canonists and Spheres.

[Marske]

@The Spooky kid (Jeremy)
I just gave credit to you in my original post because I based my deck on your list...  I'm with you on the Chrome Mox and Pact of Negation but you knew that already. I also find the 2 thoughtseize I've included in my list not to be a problem. As for Necro, Twister, Seal I think I made my opinion about them clear enough so I'm not going there again.

@nineisnoone
I guess you are right about the debate being
1) # of Tendrils
2) # of Cabals
3) Repeal or Chain of Vapor?
4) Pact of Negation?

Tendrils
I'm with Jeremy on three being the right number (also in testing this has proven not to be to much or to little)

The Cabals
Also if you don't run green in your sideboard you could swap the Mox Emerald for the fourth Ritual.

Repeal vs chain
I chose to run 2 repeal and 1 chain of vapor main (one in my sideboard) Together with 1 Hurkyl's recal main and side I think this deck has enough "gas" to take out threats. (6 "duress" effects and 4 bounce maindeck. Repeal is more expensive if you want something bounced true... but it does interact very well with your chrome moxen and topdeck tutors.

Pact of Negation
Also with Jeremy on this card. It's just a free counter which doesn't lose you life if you AD it. Sure it doesn't stop threats but with all the duress / thoughtseize bounce this should be aimed at protection tendrils from FoW / Stilfe and we should handle threats in a different way.

I must say this is turning out to be a great discussion about AD !

[Tha Gunslinga]

Second, does having Xantid Swarm in the sideboard justify Time Walk in the maindeck? Given that the card immediately replaces itself for no mana, I find it difficult to justify its exclusion. It's basically like running one fewer card in the deck, while being amazingly powerful with a creature on the table.

Have you considered Force of Will in the sideboard? That would let you be able to stop early Canonists and Spheres.

I would leave out Time Walk and Force of Will because they both suck when you hit them with Ad Nauseam.  Walk is irrelevant when you're comboing out, and Force is a huge life hit.  I'd rather run bounce to deal with Canonist and such than try to counter them.  Relying on bounce also means you can find the card when you need it; needing a Force AND blue card when they play the lock piece is a tough one.

Also, the maindeck runs 12 blue cards, so even if you bring in 4 Force and don't take out any blue cards, you're still running a fairly ugly blue-card count.

[bluemage55]

Has anyone considered Ad Nauseam as a transformational SB option?

Traditional Long builds have the resiliency needed against control decks.  But in games where you don't need to worry about 4 Force of Wills, 4 Mana Drains, and some Duresses (e.g. against Stax, Ichorid, random aggro), you could transform into a more combo-ish build with Ad Nauseams.

In doing so, you would improve Long's matches against the decks it has more trouble with, and not hinder yourself in matches Long is already strong againt (control).

Is it possible given 15 slots?

[nineisnoone]

I suppose there is also the Timetwister, Necro, and Seal arguments.

For my part, I disagree with the OP on Necro and Seal. 

I rarely think the Sorcery speed to Seal is that big of a drawback.  Tutors are almost always non-ideal (i.e. you'd rather draw the card you tutor for than the tutor),  but when you are light on answers against diverse threats due to running so many combo piece, the advantages I think are too strong.

Necro, I also think is too good not to run.  Even if they FoW it, it's a neutral play (2 cards for 2 cards).  I've run Necro without FoW and it's a fine play.  I've seen it cut from combo lists before, but I think it works well in this deck. 

Timetwister, I think it's a good card to run.  I suppose it interferes with you're own Will plan and since you run 3-4 Tendrils you never have to Timetwister them back to your library.  But I like it mostly because it works well with 4x Chrome Mox.  With more Moxen to open the match with, 2x Mox Twister is more likely and a good play.  I wonder if this has more to due the mana sources then the card itself.  Meandeck runs No Pacts, and thus have fewer U cards to Imprint on Chrome Mox.  Going Swamp, Chrome Mox imprinting Duress, Mox/Ritual won't let you cast a turn 1 Twister.  Whereas Pact gives you a more U imprint targets, giving you better chances on it.

I think the Repeal/Chain debate is debateable.  Vapor is the safer play since it can hit non-artifact board pieces better than Hurkyl's or Repeal.  I suppose if you don't expect non-artifact board disruption pieces it's a less relevant card choice.  The Repeal + Tutor trick is nice, but I've never seen the need for it in past storm decks, so I'm don't see the need for it to make the cut now.  Also I think Chain covers nicely the loss of Thoughtseize.

I'm in agreement on the Pact issue, I suppose especially since if you're running Chain you can bounce creatures so you don't need to counter/Thoughtseize them.  I'm not entirely sold though.

Honestly though, Xantid looks very good. While it makes the deck 3 color, I think there should be some discussion as to whether it should be worthy maindeck disruption rather than a SB option.  Stacks/Fish decks are going to be difficult for this deck anyways likely involving Hurklys/Massacre's cards that are SB only.  So why not run Xantid main?  They can bounce it sure, but you can just play your stuff in the 2nd main to see if they do that or not.  If they counter it, it's functionally the same as a Duress.  If they don't, it's even better.  It can even be useful against Aggro decks who will trying to Lightning Bolt you when you Ad Nauseam to 3.  Sure they could Bolt the Xantid, but that's the same effect. 

[Oath of Happy]

Why would you run merchant scroll in this deck over imperial seal? Merchant scroll gets ancestral a bounce spell or a pact of negation whereas seal gets you any card int he deck including the busted ad nauseam.  Also, why isn't ponder in this deck?  It seems like an auto include in any deck for pulling the right balance of mana to spells.  Ive also found that the off color moxen are better than the 3rd and 4th chrome mox.  Chrome mox is better after ad nauseam has resolved, but the way to win with the deck is to get the ad nauseam resolved in the first place, which giving up 2 cards for 1 mana didnt do.  Even if youve dropped your land and tapped out, once ad nauseam resolves, having 2 chrome mox, black lotus, lotus petal and mox jet has always been enough to get the colored mana needed for a ritual, and the off color moxen help in this situation as well to cast cabal ritual or tendrills.

[The_spooky_kid]

Spooky,

Thanks for that great post. I learned quite a bit from it. I have a few questions, if you don't mind.

First, I noticed the lack of Bob in your sideboard. Did you decide against him? In my testing, I found him to be too slow to matter, but I wanted to hear your take on it.

Second, does having Xantid Swarm in the sideboard justify Time Walk in the maindeck? Given that the card immediately replaces itself for no mana, I find it difficult to justify its exclusion. It's basically like running one fewer card in the deck, while being amazingly powerful with a creature on the table.

Have you considered Force of Will in the sideboard? That would let you be able to stop early Canonists and Spheres.

The original hybrid build of ad nauseam that I ran at the ICBM open had dark confidant in its sb.  I never really felt the need to board him in.  He honestly is really slow, and in a deck like this its not hard to achieve the 10 storm at any point, so he got the axe.  I dont run time walk in my list.  It almost always ends up a bad cantrip or imprinted on chrome mox.  I think the only way that I would include it is if i had some sort of man plan from the sideboard, which i dont think is a very good option with this deck.  As for force of will,  I don't think i run enough blue cards in the main to support fow.  I think that I would hate flipping it to ad nauseam, and i think that i would rather have thoughsiezes over the fows. 

[Liam-K]

Am I the only person who likes Time Walk?

First of all, it lets you duress for free.  Second of all, it gives you a land drop... which, even with 1 land in hand, is quite helpful if you're planning to cast Nauseam on your walk turn.  Third, it's good with topdeck tutors.  Fourth, it's good with the skull.  Fifth, it's very convenient to untap after a Twister.  And, while this should be a minor consideration, it's salvaged at least a couple otherwise-whiffed Nauseam draws for me.  I decided to keep it before I started considering a sideboard at all, let alone xantid swarms.  If it's just cantripping for you your hand is already going nowhere, and it's not like the deck is particularly tight for slots.

[nineisnoone]

If it's just cantripping for you your hand is already going nowhere, and it's not like the deck is particularly tight for slots.

So what would you cut for it?

[Liam-K]

out of which list?  scroll, from spooky's

[Marske]

Ok, First off all I want to thank you all for the discussion that my writing sparked up (whether you agree with me or not) This was my first real big post on TMD and I'm glad it brought with it such a discussion.

Well back on-topic:

We can safely say that adding cards like Force of Will and Bargain no matter how good they are is not the route this deck must take because of the high CMC and the low blue count. With that out of the way it leaves us with still some discussions going on namely:

The Chain vs Repeal vs Thoughtseize discussion.
Chain of Vapor is great and Repeal is great BUT neither of both should be in this deck as a four off imo. The right balance I think would be running 2 of each because the only real non-artifact threat you really want gone would be something like cursecatcher or a canonist

I think the Repeal/Chain debate is debateable.  Vapor is the safer play since it can hit non-artifact board pieces better than Hurkyl's or Repeal.  I suppose if you don't expect non-artifact board disruption pieces it's a less relevant card choice.  The Repeal + Tutor trick is nice, but I've never seen the need for it in past storm decks, so I'm don't see the need for it to make the cut now.  Also I think Chain covers nicely the loss of Thoughtseize.

If you look closer at my list you will see I suggested running 2 thoughtseize. I think 4 would be a bit to much because the only thing you really want to grab is a Canonist or cursecatcher the rest Duress can handle and the lifeloss IS a factor.

The Necro/Twister/Seal/Time Walk discussion
If you look at the average cmc of my list it's around 1.40 by adding both necro and twister you get up too around 1.48 while this is still below the preferred 1.5 it's a bit high (certainly if you still want room to sideboard cards with the same CMC or even higher) now this in no way means Necro or Twister doesn't have a place in this deck.

Lets first take a look at Necropotence:
Stating the obvious it's 3 Black mana to cast which can be done using Dark ritual or lotus on turn one. If it is countered you have just wasted two cards from your hand and from your opponents. I would rather play a turn 1 duress / seize because this gives you information about the hand your opponent has and probably what he is going to be doing for the next turn, this is crucial to our game plan because we need to know if we can combo safely on turn 2 or even turn 1.

Now lets for the sake of argument assume we cast a Necropotence turn one and it's resolved. I think the average amount of cards you would want to draw would be around 10-12 (same as a "good" ad nauseam) which would leave us at 8 life and still able to tutor for a Tendrills. During our discard step we go down back to 7 cards, while this is not a problem for "traditional storm" decks it can be for us. This would mean you would have to reach 10 storm with 7 cards in your hand without the possibility of going Ad Nauseam (probably VERY lethal at this point) we don't have tinker for jar or wheel of fortune or time spiral, all we could have is a twister. I think the chances of getting 10 plus storm after this kinda play are not that big at all not to mention whats going to happen if you "fizzle" and the chances that you have just drawn enough to cast 2 tendrills back to back doing lethal damage aren't that big either. Imo you have just played yourself out of the game.

Forgive me for this rather bold statement (could be my newbie-ness in playing with necro) but this doesn't seem like that great a deal in a ad nauseam combo deck.

Now lets take a look at Timetwister:
Being the only draw7 in our deck it isn't as good as it is in decks like TPS or Grim Long the chances of grabbing this while drawing cards with Necro while present are small. It does give you some "gas" when cast turn 1 or when your hand is almost empty but that's about it. I can see why people would want to play a this when Necro is in the deck, but like I just said without Necro this seems too bad to include on it's own.

Now lets take a look at Imperial Seal:
We have five "tutors" in my list and the only card I would swap to include this would be Merchant Scroll... But then again Merchant Scroll grabs your counters / bounce and puts it directly into your hand. I do see why some people would prefer to play six tutors but I guess this is just a matter of preference.

And Finally Time Walk:
This card helps out a lot when you play it with Twister and Necro in the deck, but it sucks big time without those other cards imo.

So maybe I'm completely wrong about everything I just posted and maybe I'm not. It doesn't matter because I'm glad the discussion about Ad Nauseam is going on out in the open. I do hope somebody does great with a list it doesn't matter if it's Spooky's, Meandecks or Mine as long as people realize what a fun new card we as a community have gotten.

[Liam-K]

How much actual testing did you do with necro?  If it sticks and you don't get duressed, you are going to win.  You won't get anywhere with nauseam after necro, sure, so you get yawgwill or bounce artifacts for storm.

[nineisnoone]

I could see Walk for Scroll.  I'm not big on Scroll either though, I don't have it in my list.

How much actual testing did you do with necro?  If it sticks and you don't get duressed, you are going to win.  You won't get anywhere with nauseam after necro, sure, so you get yawgwill or bounce artifacts for storm.

I did a little more testing and realized Chain of Vapor is a big help in this respect.  I had plenty of occasions where I needed to Chain of Vapor to double bounce Moxen (sac'ing a land) to generate storm/mana.  This might be a factor with his assessment on Necro since he runs Repeal over Chain.

I do agree that 4 of either is too much.

Maybe it's just me, but I actually view Necro/Twist to be conservative plays.  What you Necro for really depends on what you have in hand.  If you have a hand that's just shy of winning, then Necro aggressively to win next turn.  If you don't, then there's no need as bold.  Take a small Necro, maybe you don't win next turn, but your definitely in the drivers seat.

As for Twist, I think it's great with the 4x Chrome Mox.  Now more possibly on turn 1, and whenever you play it you are likely to draw another into your 8 relevant mana sources (4x Chrome, Mox Saph, Mox Jet, Petal, Lotus).

[The_spooky_kid]

You have to run necro and timetwister in this deck.  One thing you have to understand is there will be times where you are just in bad shape. Timetwister and necro are great at recovering from being in slumps.  Merchant scroll also fits into this catagory as well.  Granted the most linear plan this deck has is resolve ad nauseam and win, but there will be times that you have to win without ad nauseam.  These cards greatly assist in doing that.   What does timewalk do in this deck?  The card with the exception of playing turn 1 land, mox, walk is honestly quite terrible.   

[Marske]

How much actual testing did you do with necro?  If it sticks and you don't get duressed, you are going to win.  You won't get anywhere with nauseam after necro, sure, so you get yawgwill or bounce artifacts for storm.

I played about 30 games before a tournament (playtesting) and played in a 50 man tournament with Spooky's list (So with Necro and Twister included) and never needed either of those cards. Maybe this is not enough testing but I think it is. I didn't just write my initial post based on pure theory. Also the chances of being duressed after you necro are big enough (loads of decks run Duress effects) without you being able to stop this (pacting would be a bad idea and duress / seize do nothing) and winning with Necro / Yawg.will /bounce artifacts seems a lot harder to accomplish then just straight up winning without Will in the first place using ADN. So why is adding more support for your main game plan that bad ?

The only deck I have a trouble against (besides the obv being staxx) is BUG fish and that's only when a cursecatcher hits the table. This little card makes it impossible to fight a counter war and I don't see what Necro or Twister would do to help against this.

Maybe it's just me, but I actually view Necro/Twist to be conservative plays.  What you Necro for really depends on what you have in hand.  If you have a hand that's just shy of winning, then Necro aggressively to win next turn.  If you don't, then there's no need as bold.  Take a small Necro, maybe you don't win next turn, but your definitely in the drivers seat.

I've got the same feeling about Necro/Twister for being conservative plays which I don't like. Also if you take a small Necro and don't win the next turn you are NOT in the drivers seat IMO because every turn you give your opponent will mean you'll have a harder time winning without a draw (test against BUG fish and you will agree) I don't see where doing this helps you out instead why don't we just add more protection for your ADN which will win you the game 9 out of the 10 times during the same turn you cast it. (I tried to do that by adding thoughtseize in the place of Necro/Twister)

@The_Spooky_Kid
I do totally agree with you about time walk as I posted before. Twister and Necro do help you out a little when you are in bad shape, but if you are in bad shape doesn't this mean that you should have taken a mulligan ? I say this because everybody keeps saying "Necro is good because if you cast it turn 1 then you win on turn 2" well following your logic this would mean you kept a subpar hand just because it had Necro in it and are hoping to win if the Necro resolves (otherwise you are screwed) Because we aren't able to force it into play this is a bit risky imo.

Like I said before, Twister is something I could see bringing back into the deck but for now I'm happy with Thoughtseize taking it's place.

[nineisnoone]

But does Thoughtseize make your deck faster?  At a certain point in time, the deck hits its high-end of speed.  If you are playing more proactive disruption, aren't you just slowing the deck down all the same?  It's not like you're adding a FoW to the deck, Duress/Thoughtseize cost mana, cards, deck space, all of which slow the deck down.  So in a sense, we're both acknowledging the same limitations, but you choose to force the main plan whereas Necro and Twister give you alternate plans. 

And really, Thoughtseize on Cursecatcher?  I've never done that (maybe I'm wrong for that), but in the longview the mana you spent casting Thoughtseize could have just been spent on countering Cursecatcher.  And why wouldn't drawing more cards with Necro or Twister help you get more lands to make Cursecather irrelevant?  Or in the alternative, give it more targets to win an attrition.

If not running Necro means that you mulligan more, then yes, I would run Necro.  Entering play with 1 less card and no promise of a better hand is not better play than turn 1 Necro.  And I don't think trading Necro/Twister for disruption gives you better opening hands. 

On a side note, I like that you abbreviated Ad Nauseam "ADN", it's a rather irritating word to write out and using the first or second word doesn't really do it justice.