$400 1st Place at Batter Up Sportscards in Tewksbury, MA 12/20

[Newenglandmagicgroup]

**The Details**

Batter Up Sportscards
1875 Main St
Tewksbury, MA 01876
Phone: (978) 640-1586

NEMG's Home Base Tons of Soda, Chips, Candy and Pizza!


When- Saturday December 20 2008

Reg 10:15am - 11:15  am Start time @ 11:30

Decklist's Required 15 Proxy Limit ELD Proxies do not count towards your proxy limit.


Swiss rounds based on attendance
Entry Will Be 25$ With a Cut To Top 8 Prizes  Which Will Be

1st - $400.00 CASH!!
2nd - 4x Force Of Will
3rd/4th Underground Sea [Rev] Volcanic Island [Rev]
5th-8th Other Vintage Staples, Foils and More!

These Prizes Will be Given Away Regardless Of Attendance But Prizes Could Go Up To Top 16 Based On Attendance



Hope To See You All There! Very Happy

[Bill Copes]

*bump*

I'll have to ask the rest of team car if they want to go, but I'm looking forward to this.

[BC]

I'll have to ask the rest of team car if they want to go...

Almost certainly yes.

[sundering jerk]

Is anyone from RI going? Feel free to message me.

[Newenglandmagicgroup]

Hope to see you all this weekend

[Oath of Happy]

Is anyone within 1 hour of Waterbury CT going to this?  I need to hitch a ride and can either get dropped off where you are or if your passing by Waterbury on 84 you can pick me up.  Either way works for me, and I'll split gas.

[Demonic Attorney]

Weather permitting, I'm most certainly planning to go to this.  NEMG's prize support is, in my opinion, the best in New England in terms of regular events.  I know the player base has been drifting away from NE Vintage lately, but I really encourage everyone to try to make it out to this. 

[Harlequin]

Hopefully things will be cleaned up for the Saturday drive... At this point, there's a winter storm warning in effect until 3AM

[FadeToBlack]

As with most, I will be there, weather permitting.

[Oath of Happy]

Is this getting cancelled?  Can you give us all a note ahead of time?  I have a 3 hour drive, so mabey you can let us know tomorow morning and push back the start time a little bit to give people extra driving time if it isn't getting postponed

[Demonic Attorney]

Forecasts project the storm lasting through the night and well into tomorrow.  My plans are looking like they're cancelled, and I'd advise the TO to reschedule if possible.  I don't think there's anything scheduled next weekend, if you're willing to take a gamble on people not traveling abroad for the Christmas holiday.

[FadeToBlack]

Snow has completely stopped in my area, so I should be good to go...

[The Atog Lord]

The snow prevented me from going to this.

[Bill Copes]

The tournament ended up starting late, to make sure everybody could get there.  9 players showed up, so the entry fee was dropped to $10 and we played for $90 worth of credit . . . went 4 rounds, cut to top 2:

2 Painter
1 Slaver
1 Stax
1 Ad Nauseum
1 Oath
1 Tezzeret
1 Stasis/Standstill/Wtf was this thing.dec
1 BWG Teeg/Goyf/Confidant Fish

Oath (the nice ponytail guy that's friends with Zaigon) went undefeated and one of the painter decks (j.dizzle) was the highest 3-1 seed.

It was a good time, despite the low turnout.  And what a diverse meta!

[FadeToBlack]

I came in 2nd with Painter, though admittedly, all but one of the games I won were on the back of Tarmogoyfs.

Low turnout, but was still better than sitting home in the snow.

[Oath of Happy]

1st - $400.00 CASH!!
2nd - 4x Force Of Will
3rd/4th Underground Sea [Rev] Volcanic Island [Rev]
5th-8th Other Vintage Staples, Foils and More!

These Prizes Will be Given Away Regardless Of Attendance But Prizes Could Go Up To Top 16 Based On Attendance

[Demonic Attorney]

I just want to go on record and say that, for what it's worth, I have no problems whatsoever with the last-minute adjustment to the prize structure.  Most, if not all, TO's on this site have recognized a tacit exception to prize guarantees for inclement weather.  It's been a community practice for so long that it shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone.

[FadeToBlack]

1st - $400.00 CASH!!
2nd - 4x Force Of Will
3rd/4th Underground Sea [Rev] Volcanic Island [Rev]
5th-8th Other Vintage Staples, Foils and More!

These Prizes Will be Given Away Regardless Of Attendance But Prizes Could Go Up To Top 16 Based On Attendance

I'm pretty sure that no one in the room was going to give Hippy any crap about this. On top of that, once we realized what we were dealing with (a 9 man), he gave us free reign to do whatever we want. 3 Rounds cut to top 4, 4 rounds top 2, etc, etc. Whatever we wanted for entry and a compatible prize system. Considering the circumstances, I must say it was run quite well.

[ELD]

This is awkward, but I feel I have to clarify a few points.  I hope this is all taken in the right context, as I sincerely like Ben, and have worked with him to both get his new series of events started and running a table at his events.  The fact that he didn't have me help him with this event was was no way personal, and I wish him the utmost success as he continues to support out community.  I do hope to work with him again in the future to promote his events.  These points are made to be constructive, and I hope they are taken that way.  

I did not make it to this event due to family issues, but at one point, I was actually going to skip the family and go anyways.  I would not have been OK with a change of prizes after sacrificing such important time with my family.  I'm certain that people driving 3+ hours, or people who managed to get a rare Saturday off, would not be OK with it either.  

I just want to go on record and say that, for what it's worth, I have no problems whatsoever with the last-minute adjustment to the prize structure.  Most, if not all, TO's on this site have recognized a tacit exception to prize guarantees for inclement weather.  It's been a community practice for so long that it shouldn't have come as a surprise to anyone.

I refuse to be included in that assumption.  When I guarantee a Mox, I guarantee it.  If you schedule the day off from work, or make that 3+ hour drive, you can be certain that it will be worth it.  That's the point of a guarantee - people know for a fact that they will be able to play for something big if they make the effort to attend.  

If any TO's are going to change prizes due to weather, or any reason, they really can't use the word "guarantee."  It destroys the integrity of the promise given to the community.  I'm fine with TO's doing prizes just based on attendance, but once you give your word as a TO, you must stick to it.  If you don't, what is your word worth?  

To get to the heart of the matter, if only 9 players showed up, and it was due to the fact that the tournament was so close to the holidays, would the prizes still have been guaranteed?  How about if it was because of another tournament on the same day?  I see no reason why the "reason" for low attendance matters in this regard.  

I believe there are a few choices -

Add a * with an explanation of the exceptions
Scale prizes with attendance
Guarantee and stick to it

I hope these comments come across with the respect I hold for Ben and his efforts to help the community.  I look forward to attending and supporting his events in the future.  

[Oath of Happy]

1st - $400.00 CASH!!
2nd - 4x Force Of Will
3rd/4th Underground Sea [Rev] Volcanic Island [Rev]
5th-8th Other Vintage Staples, Foils and More!

These Prizes Will be Given Away Regardless Of Attendance But Prizes Could Go Up To Top 16 Based On Attendance

I'm pretty sure that no one in the room was going to give Hippy any crap about this. On top of that, once we realized what we were dealing with (a 9 man), he gave us free reign to do whatever we want. 3 Rounds cut to top 4, 4 rounds top 2, etc, etc. Whatever we wanted for entry and a compatible prize system. Considering the circumstances, I must say it was run quite well.

Yes, however if you scroll up in this thread you will see that I posted a request the night before the tourney for the TO to let us know if the tourney was on or not.  So, had there been a reply that the tournament was going happen, thats a minimum of one person that would have made the trip, therefore the turnout might have been enough to give away the GUARANTEED prize.  So, not only did the people there not get the prize that was promised, but some people missed out on a type 1 tournament that we were looking for and which are getting rare these days.  So yea, I'm upset that I missed out after looking forward to this.  Secondly, it must really suck to give out 400 cash, a playset of forces, plus more to a 9 person turnout, but thats your own fault if you post that the prizes are guaranteed no matter what, rather than guaranteed based on X amount of players.

[FadeToBlack]

And there lives the problem with guaranteed prizes I guess. You guarantee them, you asked to get screwed. You don't, and people don't want to show up. Taking a hit on prizes for one events heavily outweighs the absence of more vintage tournaments, though I definitely see the issue people have with "guaranteed" prizes.

And not to take shots at anyone, as I see you have valid points, but from what I can tell, its only people who did not attend that are complaining. Everyone yesterday seemed fairly content with how things worked out, all things considered.

[ELD]

And not to take shots at anyone, as I see you have valid points, but from what I can tell, its only people who did not attend that are complaining. Everyone yesterday seemed fairly content with how things worked out, all things considered.

The community is the community.  Regardless of if a person is attends any given event, that doesn't discredit the importance of their opinion when it comes to this particular issue.  This issue actually determines if people will come to a future event at all.  I literally almost blew off my family obligation to come to this event.  It turns out it was best that I did not go on several levels.  If someone had driven 3 hours for this event, your point would be completely void.  People who did not attend apparently exercised good judgment, as the prizes were not given out as promised.  When someone sacrifices time from their personal or professional life to support the community, they should get what they bargained for. 

Here's an example that is relevant to the discussion.

One of my events was held on a holiday weekend, which didn't draw a large crowd.  I had guaranteed a Time Walk for first, but that left very little money for the other prizes.  I decided to dig in and give out some great prizes for the rest of the Top 8, but it was still very top heavy.  Someone suggested to me that I do a vote, and see if anyone had objection to changing the prize structure.  I refused for a couple of reasons.

1) Once I give my word, I'm going to keep it
2) Even if no one objects, it may be because they would be uncomfortable objecting.  People showed up to play Magic for the prizes promised.  They didn't show up to be the one person publicly objecting to something everyone else wants.  That is an awkward role, and no one should be forced into it just because they want what was promised to them. 

The whole point here is to keep your word.  Promising to give out fabulous prizes is only has value if you keep your word.  It's an easy fix for future events, but it needs to be done. 

And there lives the problem with guaranteed prizes I guess. You guarantee them, you asked to get screwed. You don't, and people don't want to show up. Taking a hit on prizes for one events heavily outweighs the absence of more vintage tournaments, though I definitely see the issue people have with "guaranteed" prizes.

I've been guaranteeing my prizes since 2006.  I will be doing the same in 2009.  It's not the only way to do it though.  Myriad just gives 100% back to the players in store credit.  That is a totally acceptable way to run events too.  This middle ground of making promises you can't keep and breaking them is unacceptable. 

Issues like these illustrate why I do not believe cash prizes are the way to go.  They leave no room for anyone to make any profit, and obviously no one ever wants to lose money.  Here's an example using only a 1st place Guaranteed $400 prize:

With a $400 cash prize, if you only get $300 in entries, you lose money.  Keep doing this, and you're not going to survives as a TO.  If you get a ton of people, you have to scale up, or people complain.  They can see you took in $600 in entries, and made $200, which to them feels like losing $200, because it essentially is.  They do not feel like their getting a fair shake.  The money is taken out just for the service of running a tournament, but with less people, they would have not paid such a high premium.  If only $400 in entry had been collected, there would have been no premium.  The higher attendance is punished, not rewarded.

Now, if a TO gives out Power or other cards, they have some room to make profit, because they're providing an additional service.  They're tracking down hard to find, in demand cards, and distributing them to the community.  They're also providing a service of buying them back if the players want them too.  Both of these services are wanted, ie people are willing to pay for them.  The TO makes a little bit of a mark up on the cards, which gives the possibility for profit.  That profit is necessary for a TO to keep going, and pad against future losses.  Store credit works essentially the same way.  In this instance, the service provided is having tons of products the players want, all under one roof. 

[M.Solymossy]

I completely Agree, as I was at a tournament in September where Ben Carp promised two pieces of power (first and second), and with 22 people, he still gave those out, AND prizes for the rest of top 8 equaling about 50 for 3rd and 4th each, and 25 to 5th through 8th.

[Eastman]

To get to the heart of the matter, if only 9 players showed up, and it was due to the fact that the tournament was so close to the holidays, would the prizes still have been guaranteed?  How about if it was because of another tournament on the same day?  I see no reason why the "reason" for low attendance matters in this regard. 

The reason matters because some reasons are predictable, and some are not.  Other tournaments are posted well in advance, and holidays are generally scheduled several generations prior.  Severely inclement weather, on the other hand, can be predicted only a few days prior, and then only with middling accuracy.

Predictability matters for the following reason.  If a TO chooses to take into account a predictable attendance-reducing factor (old information) on the day of the tournament, but did NOT in announcing the prizes previously, then they have either engaged in poor (inconsistent) judgment, or they will have swindled their attendees.  The same is not true of a TO who takes into account new information (the weather) on the day of a tournament. 

Of course this is a question of degree - how inclement must it be to qualify as really unpredictable?  But there is a certain fairness in the tacit rule: if it is well known in the community, then individuals with good judgment and knowledge of the weather on the day of cannot really rely on a guarantee after all.  Seeing the weather they should realize that prizes may be reduced and factor that into their decision to make the trip. 


Not that I disagree overall about guaranteed prizes, I just wanted to point out the TO here is a lot more justified than you let on I think. 

[Harlequin]

'Guarantee' alone doesn't mean much to me.  Think about E-bay, you see "BETA MOX JET - GUARANTEED REAL!!"  If anything that Guarantee makes it more suspicious.  At this point ELD, Myriad, or Ray don't have to Guarentee ME anything.  I know that even if they don't put that little word on their post - they will hold true to thier structure.  They have earned my trust as TO's whether they say 'guarenteed' or not. 

On Friday afternoon I was considering wether I wanted to brave the weather and head up to mass - or just be content and snowed in.  I made a decision that even though it said "reguardless of attendance" This store just wasn't high enough on experiance/trust meter to risk it.

Obviously it wasn't a big deal to the people who showed up.  They didn't go to "make money" they went to play cards.  In the end everyone involved was happy, and for that its all fine.  But at the same time this store hasn't yet earned a slot in my 'trusted TO' book.  This in no way will prevent me from going to events here.  I know that I'm going to get a 'fair' tournement when I go to this store.  I just won't expect them to take a loss on 'our' behalf - like I might in other places.  The word choices they make in thier posts won't change this.

[ELD]

A guarantee is a guarantee.  It's winter in New England.  There's the chance for snow.  I'd call that entirely predictable.  A meteor hitting the building, forcing the tournament to cancel would be unexpected.  Bad weather in New England - not so much  If you're not going to give away your prizes when it snows, then you must make that announcement when you post your tournament.  Even announcing it in the preceding days isn't fair to people who have sacrificed to attend your event.  People rearrange their lives to attend events.  Getting days off from work, spending time away from family, coordinating car pools - there's a lot that goes into making our community work.  

There really isn't any degree to make it "unpredictable" as far as weather is concerned outside of natural disasters.  This isn't crazy unseasonable weather.  

I really want to stress that the prize support at my events, and Myriad's events are not impacted by weather.  We stick to our word regardless.  I'm certain that the easy fix of Batter Up either not guaranteeing prizes, or actually sticking to their word will resolve this issue in the future. 

[Oath of Happy]

The prize structure that was guarnteed is a small issue to me.  The big issue is that The TO never checked the site where he advertised (or checked and ignored questions).  I specifically asked: "Is this getting cancelled?  Can you give us all a note ahead of time?  I have a 3 hour drive, so mabey you can let us know tomorow morning and push back the start time a little bit to give people extra driving time if it isn't getting postponed."  That was the night before, and I woke up early to check, and saw no reply.  The fact that the prizes were advertised as guaranteed is a seperate issue.  Had the TO given proper attention to the community, he would have had a higher turnout.  Had I gone, and the prizes were adjusted, I still would have had a good time playing magic all day even for the adjusted prize structure.  But the fact is, I didn't go because I wasn't going to drive 3 hours in the snow to find out that no one was in the store since no one replied to the thread.  It was very dispointing, you work on your deck, and test it, and test it, and get it really good, but eventually you get sick of testing it and want to play it in a tournament.  I looked forward to this tournament and was let down.

[Demonic Attorney]

I agree that the better practice might have been to update the posting to notify everyone of the tournament's status.  But as you point out, you checked this thread yourself twice to see if the tournament was going to happen.  Included in the announcement was the phone number for the venue; you could have very easily called them to ask any questions you had about the status of the tournament.  I don't think that would have been too onerous.

Eric, I'll be PM'ing you about your posts.  I don't dispute anything you've said as factually untrue, but I want to go over some additional facts that make this TO's situation different than yours.

[FadeToBlack]

At this point, I'd rather stay out of this, but I feel I should share what my friend pointed out as its slightly humurous. For the record, a total of 0 people in the room were "registered" at 11:15 (I think there was 4 of us there). Thus, no tournament occured at 11:30 as there were 0 players registered, and thus, the store has every right to keep prizes. At around noon, we started a draft, followed by a "second" vintage tournament around 1, using a tournament system that was mutually agreed upon including prizes and structure. 

*Edit - As far as issues with the TO posting on here, as someone else pointed out, the phone number is there. I called around 9 and was told that the tournament was still on.

[Oath of Happy]

Yes, the phone number was posted.  However, as I pointed out, it takes me 3 hours to get there.  If registration ends around 11 that means I'd have to leave by 8 at the latest.  Does anyone know of Card stores that open at 7:30 on a Saterday?