Aggro & Control, the real meaning: Mr. Gaddock

[Guli]

Creatures (22):
4 Wild Nactal
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Dark Confidant
3 Gaddock Teeg

Sorceries (8):
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Demonic Tutor

Instants (8):
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Red Elemental Blast

I kinda like this, i wouldn't really run REB and Bolts but they do come in handy most of the time. I don't see vials. Why? What are your thoughts about Vial? I personally am so found of Vial, you get better in using the vial the more you play with it. I see a lot 2cc bears, vial would be very nice. I would replace REB with Vial (since it is anti counter/blue) and the bolts for M fanatic or lavamancer. Creature base looks very solid. All of the bears are good, solid.

What I have really learned until now is that there might not be a 'perfect' configuration and/or color. So my search might to find the ultimate creature base with the 'right' colors might be futile. More and more i think it is about taste and skill. I want to do something fun for a change. Fun but serious, quality is still required. Disregarding color give me your top 5 1cc drops in Vintage and top 5 2cc drops. Also try to give a little background info, in what archetype the creature might best work. I can't produce such a list yet but I will think about it and post it.

[Stormanimagus]

Creatures (22):
4 Wild Nactal
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Dark Confidant
3 Gaddock Teeg

Sorceries (8):
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Demonic Tutor

Instants (8):
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Red Elemental Blast

I kinda like this, i wouldn't really run REB and Bolts but they do come in handy most of the time. I don't see vials. Why? What are your thoughts about Vial? I personally am so found of Vial, you get better in using the vial the more you play with it. I see a lot 2cc bears, vial would be very nice. I would replace REB with Vial (since it is anti counter/blue) and the bolts for M fanatic or lavamancer. Creature base looks very solid. All of the bears are good, solid.

What I have really learned until now is that there might not be a 'perfect' configuration and/or color. So my search might to find the ultimate creature base with the 'right' colors might be futile. More and more i think it is about taste and skill. I want to do something fun for a change. Fun but serious, quality is still required. Disregarding color give me your top 5 1cc drops in Vintage and top 5 2cc drops. Also try to give a little background info, in what archetype the creature might best work. I can't produce such a list yet but I will think about it and post it.

To tell you the truth, I was considering Vial here as well, but I'm worried that the 'Aggro' approach might be offset by the fact that Vial Slows you down (I say this with a grain of salt as there are not really any TRUE aggro decks in type 1. They all need some disruption to stop Combo decks that can win on turn 1 or turn 2. This makes Type 1 a very unique format in that there are really no decks that are simply beatdown).

I think I may just include Vial as Tidehollow Sculler as an instant while an opponent is trying to combo out could be devastating. So could Canonist or Teeg now that I think of it. Aight, you've sold me on it 'for this deck.' hehehehe.

[Stormanimagus]

What I have really learned until now is that there might not be a 'perfect' configuration and/or color. So my search might to find the ultimate creature base with the 'right' colors might be futile. More and more i think it is about taste and skill. I want to do something fun for a change. Fun but serious, quality is still required. Disregarding color give me your top 5 1cc drops in Vintage and top 5 2cc drops. Also try to give a little background info, in what archetype the creature might best work. I can't produce such a list yet but I will think about it and post it.

Hmmm. . .

1-Drops

1. Goblin Welder
2. Gorilla Shaman
3. Cursecatcher (more just for the current metagame)
4. Stormscape Apprentice
5. Grim Lavamancer (This guy is questionable but I think he belongs). Also could be Mogg Fanatic.
Honorable Mention–> Wild Nactal (I really think this guy is good because it's so easy to make him a 3/3 by turn 2. He's kinda like Goyf, but quicker in the early game at beginning to bring home the damage.

Also remember Hidden Guerrillas. Against Stax it is a beating as you get a 5/3 trample for G.

2-Drops

1. Dark Confidant
2. Tarmogoyf
3. Meddling Mage
4. Ethersworn Canonist
5. Gaddock Teeg
Honorable Mention–> True Believer, Jotun Grunt.

There are probably more 2 Drops that I'm forgetting, but I think those be my top 5.

Hope this is helpful food for thought.

[brianpk80]

On a more serious note, the concern of having a less relevant Turn 1 play is offset by running Tormod's Crypt.

I didn't want to run Crypt because dredge runs chalice@0. But since I run shaman/welder/Vexing I should be able to play around a turn 1 chalice and get that crypt down.

Tormod's Crypt ruins Ichorid, especially with a deck that runs Welders to both evade Chalice @ 0 and recycle Crypts as often as possible.  Their Chalice (temporarily) turns off one of your hate pieces.  Your Crypt ends their game.  Crypt > Chalice.

But Ichorid is not the only or even the primary reason to run Tormod's Crypt.  If that were the case, it would be in the sideboard.  It has powerful uses against almost every deck out there, is cheap, comes down early, and is an artifact. 

[Guli]

On a more serious note, the concern of having a less relevant Turn 1 play is offset by running Tormod's Crypt.

I didn't want to run Crypt because dredge runs chalice@0. But since I run shaman/welder/Vexing I should be able to play around a turn 1 chalice and get that crypt down.

Tormod's Crypt ruins Ichorid, especially with a deck that runs Welders to both evade Chalice @ 0 and recycle Crypts as often as possible.  Their Chalice (temporarily) turns off one of your hate pieces.  Your Crypt ends their game.  Crypt > Chalice.

But Ichorid is not the only or even the primary reason to run Tormod's Crypt.  If that were the case, it would be in the sideboard.  It has powerful uses against almost every deck out there, is cheap, comes down early, and is an artifact. 

I think you are right. If there are ways to improve my first turn and keep the strong turn 2 play then the deck will become stronger. One more thing, It depends on the dice a bit, and the match up, whether i cast turb 1 vial or drop canonist right there with a mox. If I start i go for vial which is the stronger play in long terms. I also have very explosive hands regularly. I do draw that lotus sometimes and crazy things happened. Common turn 1 drops are land/vial, land/welder and land/mox/canon. To come back to my point, sure i think crypt will be good and very useful and i most likely will use it at will with welder BUT just 1 copy is random, adding 2 seems too much. I am not a fan of enlightened tutor because it is slow. How would you solve the problem of getting that crypt in play when it matters without burning too many slots for it? I am a bit skeptical and worried about the consistency. And another thing, if i would add artifact tutors i rather play with vault/key.
Key isn't restricted and interacts well with vial, maybe i didn't push that idea and dismissed it too soon. It is possible that 4xKey/1xVault/Tinker/Enlightened or maybe even gamble (with welder in my mind and without blue/tinker) could be an effective way to work the secondary win condition plan with vault in the list. While they are busy trying to work around your teeg/magus/canonist/believer you could do some tutoring/searching to close the game. I think this approach suits the deck because it doesn't play the heavy aggro-mana denial game but more the control-denial strategy and having control is nice but control usually finds a way to finish the game with a combo (making it control/combo). So if we just try to look past the bodies of teeg type creature and just play them for their effect you will see a different approach and realize that it is actually a control deck.(with creatures I know, not with instants and sorceries). There are advantages and disadvantages to implementing your control strategy inside your creatures. So to finish this reply, the vault combo was fundamentally a very good idea but I didn't pursue it accordingly. This is still good because I believe in exploring and taking a step or two back, reflecting, fantasizing and this spiral is endless, ideas are infinite. I won't have a lot of time the next couple of weeks because my exams are approaching. But I do will keep writing and contributing.

BTW:

1. Goblin Welder

I am only sure about Welder. He is the number one for sure and should be used more in fish decks.

1. Meddling Mage (Imagine how open minded i must be to cut blue and mage just for the cause of exploration)
2. Gaddock TeeG (Causes too many problems against established Vintage decks, he is strong)
3. Dark Confidant/Canonist (I find these 2 cute next to each other, they have different effects but they are close in power level)
4. True Believer (Not stronger than TeeG or Canonist in effect, but still very close, depending on match up he can be more useful)
5. Tarmogoyf (Big muscles for only the magic number 2, easy to cast)

These lists are just lists and personal. But they do have creatures that come back often and that for a reason.

[LordHomerCat]

On a more serious note, the concern of having a less relevant Turn 1 play is offset by running Tormod's Crypt.

I didn't want to run Crypt because dredge runs chalice@0. But since I run shaman/welder/Vexing I should be able to play around a turn 1 chalice and get that crypt down.

Tormod's Crypt ruins Ichorid, especially with a deck that runs Welders to both evade Chalice @ 0 and recycle Crypts as often as possible.  Their Chalice (temporarily) turns off one of your hate pieces.  Your Crypt ends their game.  Crypt > Chalice.

But Ichorid is not the only or even the primary reason to run Tormod's Crypt.  If that were the case, it would be in the sideboard.  It has powerful uses against almost every deck out there, is cheap, comes down early, and is an artifact. 

Could not be more wrong.  Crypt against ichorid slows them like 1-2 turns max, and thats only if they dont have chalice first or needle or chain or ingot chewer etc.  Even then, a crypt on its own is so far from game-winning.  You likely need at least 2 and probably 3.

[Guli]

On a more serious note, the concern of having a less relevant Turn 1 play is offset by running Tormod's Crypt.

I didn't want to run Crypt because dredge runs chalice@0. But since I run shaman/welder/Vexing I should be able to play around a turn 1 chalice and get that crypt down.

Tormod's Crypt ruins Ichorid, especially with a deck that runs Welders to both evade Chalice @ 0 and recycle Crypts as often as possible.  Their Chalice (temporarily) turns off one of your hate pieces.  Your Crypt ends their game.  Crypt > Chalice.

But Ichorid is not the only or even the primary reason to run Tormod's Crypt.  If that were the case, it would be in the sideboard.  It has powerful uses against almost every deck out there, is cheap, comes down early, and is an artifact. 

Could not be more wrong.  Crypt against ichorid slows them like 1-2 turns max, and thats only if they dont have chalice first or needle or chain or ingot chewer etc.  Even then, a crypt on its own is so far from game-winning.  You likely need at least 2 and probably 3.

With Welder you have 2-3 and most likely more.

[Guli]

After exploring with RWG there are some stuff I would like to share. Meddling Mage is narrow and specific but stays the most powerful 2/2 you can drop in Vintage in general in my book. Red is a color you want to run in the CONTROL-fish variants. It gives you access to Goblin Welder, Shaman and Magus of The Moon. After playing and playing game after game I have to say the next: I have been trying to cut safekeeper out and replace it with another card. But in a way I already did that. Goblin Welder and Vial are both good answers against spot removal or bounce. Bouncing canonist will not help because I will most likely vial it in. Countering it can be countered with welder. Thing is I really like the safekeeper but I just want more. The reasoning is to cast down strong enough multiple hosers that losing 1 to spot removal shouldn't be enough for the opponent to break you. Canonist is protected though and Mage/TeeG have the potential to protect your entire board. Rebuild is good but only works against canonist/vial. Trick is to keep up the pressure with your other bears not to try to stop rebuild, because you can't. You also can't stop Tinker or Y Will but you sure can stop whatever those cards get in play or do.

Another serious thing I was asking myself is should I lower the creature count a bit and play more focused. The comments about focus were due to the number of creatures with all sorts of abilities. Which one to play??? Well I think I finally am getting close to really get that correct creature base. When I look at the base I am using now I can go back to my original post and say; Yea this is it, they all (except Welder but he is worth it) have an immediate, game changing effect so it will add speed/tempo to the deck. This is why Vial isn't a bad card with this type of creatures. The instant effect compensates for the early loss of tempo which eventually results in tempo GAIN.

This is the creature base, it is in combination with tutors and vault/key. This way I have an out against aggro, while i keep them busy with my bears I go look for my combo in between. I think I can use the slots that normally consist out of creature control (bouncer,drake,stp,...) to add combo and tutors. I am guessing I can afford it against aggro decks because they usually can't really do anything about it.




Some notes on Magus: You can but usually don't vial it in. It is also logical not to. Magus and Vial work well together. You stop @2 to be able to vial in your other bears and are not affected by Magus. There are 2 basics present though. So you can always prepare your magus by fetching the plain/island the first turns. Mountains will not be a problem. I am running full complement of moxes. I will most likely try to cast canonist and magus early on (Turn 1-2) to slow you down and follow it up with teegs and mages. Magus is an answer to Bazaar, Strip/Waste. This is very relevant since those cards are used in my harder match ups. Ichorid and Stax. So now I have even more answers against shop/stax. Magus shuts down color and color is what you need to break these type of creatures.

The number went down from 28-30 to 22-24. I removed 1 clamp. I have tutors now, not that i want to tutor for it but sometimes you didn't get a Key and then there isn't any point to tutor for vault, I also have Crypt.

The list is in my signature. I think it is more easy to redirect you to my list so I don't have to post it here. It seems it will be harder to deal with Oath but I suspect Oath will have lots of problems against this deck even if they can get an oath in play. The SB is ready to deal with Oath.

Guli

[Stormanimagus]

After exploring with RWG there are some stuff I would like to share. Meddling Mage is narrow and specific but stays the most powerful 2/2 you can drop in Vintage in general in my book. Red is a color you want to run in the CONTROL-fish variants. It gives you access to Goblin Welder, Shaman and Magus of The Moon. After playing and playing game after game I have to say the next: I have been trying to cut safekeeper out and replace it with another card. But in a way I already did that. Goblin Welder and Vial are both good answers against spot removal or bounce. Bouncing canonist will not help because I will most likely vial it in. Countering it can be countered with welder. Thing is I really like the safekeeper but I just want more. The reasoning is to cast down strong enough multiple hosers that losing 1 to spot removal shouldn't be enough for the opponent to break you. Canonist is protected though and Mage/TeeG have the potential to protect your entire board. Rebuild is good but only works against canonist/vial. Trick is to keep up the pressure with your other bears not to try to stop rebuild, because you can't. You also can't stop Tinker or Y Will but you sure can stop whatever those cards get in play or do.

Another serious thing I was asking myself is should I lower the creature count a bit and play more focused. The comments about focus were due to the number of creatures with all sorts of abilities. Which one to play??? Well I think I finally am getting close to really get that correct creature base. When I look at the base I am using now I can go back to my original post and say; Yea this is it, they all (except Welder but he is worth it) have an immediate, game changing effect so it will add speed/tempo to the deck. This is why Vial isn't a bad card with this type of creatures. The instant effect compensates for the early loss of tempo which eventually results in tempo GAIN.

This is the creature base, it is in combination with tutors and vault/key. This way I have an out against aggro, while i keep them busy with my bears I go look for my combo in between. I think I can use the slots that normally consist out of creature control (bouncer,drake,stp,...) to add combo and tutors. I am guessing I can afford it against aggro decks because they usually can't really do anything about it.




Some notes on Magus: You can but usually don't vial it in. It is also logical not to. Magus and Vial work well together. You stop @2 to be able to vial in your other bears and are not affected by Magus. There are 2 basics present though. So you can always prepare your magus by fetching the plain/island the first turns. Mountains will not be a problem. I am running full complement of moxes. I will most likely try to cast canonist and magus early on (Turn 1-2) to slow you down and follow it up with teegs and mages. Magus is an answer to Bazaar, Strip/Waste. This is very relevant since those cards are used in my harder match ups. Ichorid and Stax. So now I have even more answers against shop/stax. Magus shuts down color and color is what you need to break these type of creatures.

The number went down from 28-30 to 22-24. I removed 1 clamp. I have tutors now, not that i want to tutor for it but sometimes you didn't get a Key and then there isn't any point to tutor for vault, I also have Crypt.

The list is in my signature. I think it is more easy to redirect you to my list so I don't have to post it here. It seems it will be harder to deal with Oath but I suspect Oath will have lots of problems against this deck even if they can get an oath in play. The SB is ready to deal with Oath.

Guli

Nicely Explained. I am forced to strongly disagree with one thing though. Magus of the Moon is not for a 4-color deck. PERIOD. I know you can vial other guys in to play with him out, but IF they destroy your vial you are probably done that game. putting a couple basics in does not solve the problem as you'll often want to fetch out duals to be able to cast all your dudes WHEN you want to early game. Magus is an extremely powerful card, but only in a mono-red or R/x deck. not a RGWU deck. He's also better in decks that can consistently cast him on turn 1-2. those decks usually run ssg and lots of moxen + Sol Ring + Mana Crypt. Turn 3 is usually gonna be too late for this guy to come down, by 1 turn. I like ALL the other creature choices, but I really think the magus slot could be better used on something else. Perhaps something that has some synergy with Goblin Welder? I'll give it some thought. What about Thorn Of Amethyst? With all the creatures in your deck it might be a good include?

[nineisnoone]

I am forced to strongly disagree with one thing though. Magus of the Moon is not for a 4-color deck. PERIOD.

Agree 100%.  2 Basics and 5 Fetchs is not nearly enough.  Null Rod, Chalice @ 1, artifact destruction, or even a bounce spell can make life miserable for Vial. 

[Guli]

Very nice observation, i guess i never got problems getting a vial in because I run 4 and welder can always resurrect a countered/destroyed vial. So I never really had a situation were i had problems getting my stuff in. So maybe your observation is more theoretical and doesn't really apply to practical situations. I think the reason for this is because you are describing a situation that is on its own very situational. Also i forgot to mention my moxes. I usually cast Magus with colored moxes (pearl/emerald/..)
Don't forget that I am still casting my usual stuff like canonist, mage, welders.. the Magus comes in in between (or first if i feel like i can play around his effect) and makes it that much hard to break the creature wall. Anyway thanks for bringing this up I kinda missed. Also Chalice is something to worry about again without shusher.

Ok, i will try to work on a solution for chalice and making Magus more appealing. Don't say it is impossible, I successfully am running 4 colors with the most powerful creatures around and I am making them work together. I can do this. I want Magus.

Cheers,

Guli

[Stormanimagus]

Very nice observation, i guess i never got problems getting a vial in because I run 4 and welder can always resurrect a countered/destroyed vial. So I never really had a situation were i had problems getting my stuff in. So maybe your observation is more theoretical and doesn't really apply to practical situations. I think the reason for this is because you are describing a situation that is on its own very situational. Also i forgot to mention my moxes. I usually cast Magus with colored moxes (pearl/emerald/..)
Don't forget that I am still casting my usual stuff like canonist, mage, welders.. the Magus comes in in between (or first if i feel like i can play around his effect) and makes it that much hard to break the creature wall. Anyway thanks for bringing this up I kinda missed. Also Chalice is something to worry about again without shusher.

Ok, i will try to work on a solution for chalice and making Magus more appealing. Don't say it is impossible, I successfully am running 4 colors with the most powerful creatures around and I am making them work together. I can do this. I want Magus.

Cheers,

Guli

I'm not 100% saying Magus couldn't work, but I am saying that there are better choices given your deck's aim. Magus fits better in a deck that can cast him any time without blinking. Your deck won't WANT to cast him if you are vialless and welderless and you don't have the basics you want to play your other guys. Believe me, play enough games and this will happen more than you think. Or what if you have your Welder but no vial and you want to play Magus. Relying on a 4-of to come up every game when you have little to no draw engine is foolhardy, and you are basing too many of your games on luck or a line of play that may not happen in the order you wish it to.

Magus is a powerful effect, but he does not belong in every deck, and I am respectfully saying to you that I don't think he belongs in this deck as you've constructed it. I really think his slot could better be used on something else. There are a lot of cards that can really stick a fork in him. The above Chalice @1 is just one. Artifact destruction will ALWAYS run rampant in Vintage so please don't assume that your moxen/vials are going to stick around very long. Then, between Fire//Ice, STP and other spot removal your Welder may not be around very long either. I'll admit that Welder is more rogue in this deck, so opponents may not WANT to target it first, but if they see a vial in the grave and they have the ability to lock you out of your mana, they are going to put 2 and 2 together and nab the welder first. Or they'll just win first.

Also, remember that a lot of the best decks can easily play through Magus these days. That's perhaps one of the best reasons NOT to play him unless he is not forcing you manipulate your games to get him in to play. R or RW or RB TMWA decks CAN play him because he's easy to cast and doesn't hamper that deck in the least. They also run a TON of mana denial to supplement the Magus in the form of Null Rod and Chalice, as well as Strip Mine and Wasteland so it's easy for him to actually have an effect on the game.

I'm sorry, I've agreed with you on many seemingly bizarre things to this point, but I can't agree with this. You can choose to take my word on this one or not. Best of luck constructing the deck.

[Guli]

The things Magus gives me makes me want to work hard to keep him in.

I like the fact that he shuts down Bazaar. Improves my match against dredged, dragon, stax, aggro-madness

I like the fact that he stops wasteland/strip. Improves my match against mana denial in general, will give my shaman the chance to get enough mana to eat a Null Rod. Improves my game against crucible/stax/shop

He also stops fetchlands, LoA, Mishras, ... a bunch of land cards.

In combination with Canonist/TeeG his effect is even more of a problem. You can't work around that many effects.

I will not give you the time to kill my vials. You are getting pounded with clamped 3/1's. There is a clock.

I went for more effects and cut the safekeeper. Less protection more aggression and more serious threats. Magus fits the profile.

In general I am prepared to survive under a Magus. To undermine my survival plan under Magus they will need to spend time taking out my vials/welder/moxes/basics. I will not give them the time to spend their resources on that. There is always the possibility of Key/Vault and game over. You see when the magus hits the board is on flame already. He just comes in and causes additional problems. I just want to create a very hot board situation with all kinds of effects while i go search my combo whenever I feel like I have a window. I realize I am giving up a portion of control by cutting safekeeper and bouncer but in return i have more serious threats that will work in any match up.

I am really putting a lot pressure on my mana base it seems, but if we turn it around we can also say, I am using vial with more effect. The catch is that I can get vial dependent and lose start losing games because I didn't get my vial in. I don't believe that it has come to that, still have to be careful.

I ll get back at this soon

Guli

[nineisnoone]

The things Magus gives me makes me want to work hard to keep him in.

I like the fact that he shuts down Bazaar. Improves my match against dredged, dragon, stax, aggro-madness

Shutting down the card is different than shutting down the deck.  Given your mana base, you really can't reliably hit a fast Magus.  And even if you could, like Storm said you'll need some way to play around his effect because your mana base can't handle it naturally. 

It's not going to help against Dragon or Dredge.  Both decks are too fast for a even a 2nd turn Magus of the Moon many times.  There's a reason why Leyline of the Void is such a good card against Dredge, it avoids their disruption and comes down fast.  This does neither.  And Dragon is faster and less Bazaar reliant then Dredge.   

The 4 color mana-base is going to get chewed alive by 4x Waste with Crucible recursion.  The effect really isn't even all that bad against Stax because they will lay down their best pieces early anyways and since it's mostly artifacts you can't color screw them. 

I'm with Storm here.  I can't agree to Magus.  If you sit back and ignore the fact that you run Magus and look through the opponent's eyes... and look at your mana base and the high color requirements on your spells...  Wouldn't you think that Magus would be a bomb against your deck? 

Magus is a very strong card... but it is not a card that you can force into a deck.

[Guli]

Ok, without even trying with 4 color/magus/vial I am going to take the advise. With 3 color i think it is less open to criticism. Don't give me the same arguments this time, I already failed to see your points in real game, i rarely had problems with the effect of Magus. And you don't need to cast down Magus very fast, Turn 2-3 is fine. I can go back to the 3 color variation without Meddling Mage and add Tarm. Also more gamble/key/vault and welder to combo out after your hand is empty. Some shusher is also nice vs chalice.

[The Atog Lord]

I just had the pleasure of playing against this deck on Magic Workstation. Having played only a few games against it, I'm fairly certain that there are some major obstacles to this deck becoming a viable contender. It didn't help that my opponent, whom I won't name, was unaware of how summoning sickness works. Beyond that, though, the real problem is that this deck seems to throw together a bunch of cards which, while perfectly fine cards on their own terms, lack the synergy required for a competitive deck.

Goblin Welder is a great card in any deck capable of cramming its graveyard full of large robots. This deck can't really leverage Goblin Welder in any broken way; sure, returning your slain Cannonist is fine, but isn't really worth eating one of your sixty slots for. This deck has Cannonist, but is as reliant on colored spells as anything. She's much more powerful in a deck that can make her restriction become almost asymmetric. She'll be great against Storm, but a Drain deck can leverage her ability nearly as well as this deck can. Finally, Gamble is a fine card in conjunction with Dredge spells, but in this deck it is just a bad Demonic Tutor.

I'd look in some of the RGBeatz threads or Mountains Wins Again threads for some more ideas, and really work at making the pieces in the deck work together better. Synergy is very important in this sort of deck.

[Guli]

I am working on more synergy, especially with

Welder/Gamble/Vault/Key

Read through the thread a lot of synergy is explained. There is one thing i must point out. A lot of things are being tried right now and the deck is unstable at its current state. At one point I had a very stable working list it is posted somewhere near 'Part 2 Aggro Control'. That list was the results of pages of brainstorming (thanks everyone) and a lot of work/test/tune. After that I decided to explore a bit more to try to improve. Right now it is actually worse but that is beside the point. I will soon post the evolution of this thread to create a bit more structure. I ll try to cover the lists so far and try to summarize everything.

Cheers

[Dayman]

Eastman and I came up with a very similar deck driven by the same idea during the snowy drive yesterday. The inspiration for our deck was the fact that he owns chains of mephistopheles, and I wanted to make a deck in which that card would be playable so I could use it to scrub out of a tournament while having slightly more fun.

Guli I think you have a very insightful deck idea. But I think that our version features some cards that are more in the spirit of the deck that you might also like to try out. What I think this version has that is in the spirit of your deck is chalice and chains and mindcensor. Chains = "can't play draw spells." Chalice (for 1 or 0) is obvious in the pure spirit of this deck, and helps with tempo. Mindcensor reads "can't play tutors, or maybe even fetches." So they all help you get the lock that you're trying for which is to keep them from playing the spells in their hand.

I made the sideboard without thinking, and clearly am fiddling with the right equipment to deal with aggro/goyf. I like the idea of an equipment that makes birds a tool that can kill goyf while it's chump blocking. Room for an answer to tinker besides mindcensor might be nice, Trygon is there for oath and artifact aggro. He also is a big man. But I am very loathe to add cards that don't help get the lock.

Pithing needle maindeck is huge, because it is an answer for those cards it is a meddling mage for. Duress is probably helpful to know what to name turn 2. I agree that this is an incredibly hard deck to play.

I also don't like the fish name, because there are no fish. Why not a cool name like "Can't be Played"? That explains the spirit of the deck that this thread has been playing with and is a triple entendre.

Can't be Played

Disruption (27)
3 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Trygon Predator
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Meddling Mage
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Duress
Removal/Beef? (2)
1 Sword of Fire & Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Draw (5)
4 Dark Confidant
1 Ancestral Recall
Lands (14)
4 City of Brass
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
Other Mana (9)
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lotus Petal
1 Black Lotus
3 Birds of Paradise
Tutor & Power (3)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
Sideboard
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Mana Crypt
2 Trygon Predator
2 Kami of Ancient Law
2 Yixlid Jailer

Having read through the engaged discussion Guli has got going, I think there might be some changes I'd make to my list. True Believer does fit into the overall idea, I'm just not sure it stops enough cards to be worth it maindeck. Magus might be a good answer to tinker. And also the mana base and some other stuff are still in development.

I would also make the comment that I don't like aether vial. First of all I would hate to rely on aether vial. Second I don't think we need to protect our creatures in this deck. Does Stax protect its lock tools? Welder can do some protection, but mostly Stax "protects" by just playing another lock tool.

But most importantly unless I understand it wrong vial plays a creature for you turn 3. That is too late to get the lock going I think. Turn 3! Birds gets you where you need to go on turn 2.

[Guli]

3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Trygon Predator
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Meddling Mage
3 Gaddock Teeg

I understand why this deck does not want to run Vial. It only has 15 creatures and none the overall casting cost is not vial friendly. This is no problem though. But if you don't run vial, then you better be running Null Rod and additional mana denial. Ok let's say you choose to run neither of them. The only reason my deck works is because of the advantages vial gives my creatures.

At first glance the creatures you selected are all good. You don't have a turn 1 drop though.  But you do have Chalice and you could set it @ 0 and 1 with this deck without hurting yourself (except duress but that is ok). You also have decent acceleration to drop turn 1 confidant/canonist.

I can't see any 'bad' cards to be honest. It looks solid. But I can see some problems against shop/prision/stax and ichorid game 1. When trygon hits you have game against shop but the problem is that you might not get the chance to cast him.

I stand my ground when it comes to welder. By running it my match up against shop improves drastically. I posted a lot of times what welder does. He does way too much for a 1 mana investment for not to be selected as a 1 drop. I am busy on making Welder even more functional by using Gamble and more acceleration. This way I can easily drop my hand and cast gamble to get my vault. Once he is in the hand/grave zone it is a matter of time to combo. I also use 4x Key. They come in handy when I have an off color mox and an on color mox. They fix mana and they untap Canonist and Vial's.

4x Welder
4x Gamble
4x Voltaic Key
1x Time Vault

That is the combo shell I am using. Next to this the core deck is still kicking.

So Dayman you tell me that vial is slow. But you don't have any turn 1 drop (BOP is a turn 1 drop but he is mana). You do have a more solid disruption in turn 1 with duress/chalice but those don't really cut it. If you don't draw a mox you will have a very slow game. If you do open with land/mox/confi you have good chances.

Not to flame you but this thread is about Vial/Control. So our themes are not the same just because you run a couple of the same cards.
Still it is nice to see a BWGU. Could you try to add more creatures and Vial and post a list? And how is BOP working out for you? Im curious. If does fix mana.

[d0rsal]

@ dayman - you're missing a card, you listed ancestral recall twice. 

[Stormanimagus]

Ok. Cards like birds are just not going to cut it. Replace them with tarmogoyf if you havn't already. Also, I think that the predator belongs in the side board. Killing moxen very slowly as a main deck threat is not a good enough reason to run him main. I'd find room for the fourth chalice and 4 null rod. Chains is a solid card, but with restricted brainstorm and gush it is significantly less effective. I'll try to come up with a good GWUb or GWU list later that answers some of the critiques I've been putting forth.

Peace,

Storm

[Eastman]

Ok. Cards like birds are just not going to cut it. Replace them with tarmogoyf if you havn't already. Also, I think that the predator belongs in the side board. Killing moxen very slowly as a main deck threat is not a good enough reason to run him main. I'd find room for the fourth chalice and 4 null rod. Chains is a solid card, but with restricted brainstorm and gush it is significantly less effective. I'll try to come up with a good GWUb or GWU list later that answers some of the critiques I've been putting forth.

Peace,

Storm

I thought the birds were a mana source - they fix colors for a deck running not just 4 colors, but three different 2-color spells.  If birds goes out, what comes in to help smooth the colors?    I can also see an added benefit to birds as a mana source, in that you can drop a SoFI on them and come in the air.

Speaking of which, SoFI >> Jitte in my opinion, especially in a deck with a goodly number of maindeck flyers.  SoFI protects your lock pieces by giving them +2/+2 and the pro colors, and Jitte just doesn't do that. 

[Guli]

@Stormanimagus
How do you feel about Gamble? I ll try to give some in game explanations.



I am trying out chrome mox to maximize the acceleration and try to empty your hand asap. You try to get welders/keys active and mess around with combo by using your canonists/teegs. Shaman will also help by sniping a couple of mox. With 4x gamble you are going to draw into them. You also use Vexing Shusher to have game against control. Also i figured with gamble tarm will get +2/+2 mostly. Idea is to gamble for vault and weld it in or in some case just gamble and take your chances.

So the creatures are:

Canonist/TeeG
Welder/Shaman
Vexing/Tarm

The Combo elements:

Key/Vault/Gamble

This way you become extremely dangerous against any deck. At any time the combo can come out and in best case (Vexing, Welder) it is unstoppable. I do realize there is no true Believer/Mage/Magus but that does not undermine the theme. Canonist and Tarm are good for several reasons but one of the important arguments is the mana cost. They are easy to cast and don't press weight on your mana base. We ll just go 3-4x each that gives us a total of 28-30 creatures.

Chrome Mox: Too much of the same card? Dump it chrome. With Gaddock or Vexing you can choose which color you want imprinted. Also you don't have to. If your welder needs additional artifacts use chrome.

What are the thoughts on this route?
Is Skullclamp still required/needed with the combo presence?
Would you happen to know other interesting cards that would help out here?

Ask away, give feedback

Guli

[d0rsal]

@ Eastman - birds are a summoning sick mana source, if you want a color fixer, you could try manamorphose & it draws a card.  as for SoFI, its a great card, i run 2 in my aggro workshop deck, but it is certainly no Jitte.  the benefits of the SoFI are well known, no need to re-hash them here, but the Jitte single-handedly controls the board in aggro wars; it IS that good.

[Guli]

I don't have any problem with a turn one BOP. Especially with Chalice and a possible turn 2 Teeg or Canonist. But the problem is that BOP will be a dead draw later on. I use lsecond Vials to weld in stuff that got countered or destroyed or to set at another CC. The instant speed and the fact you can't counter it and that vial isn't affected with spheres/blood moons all matter a lot when you are playing against different decks all day long. Vial is far more superior.

[bluemage55]

Why isn't this thread in the improvement forum?  It would seem that this deck has a long way to go before being a viable contender in competitive Vintage.

[brianpk80]

Could not be more wrong.  Crypt against ichorid slows them like 1-2 turns max, and thats only if they dont have chalice first or needle or chain or ingot chewer etc.  Even then, a crypt on its own is so far from game-winning.  You likely need at least 2 and probably 3.

I disagree.  While it may be trendy to imagine that Ichorid has somehow modernized and "evolved" to eschew the pitfalls of graveyard destruction, upending the graveyard will still always trump the Ichorid strategy in practice. 

It seems you may be considering Crypt in a vacuum or as a permanent on the board of a Drain/Stax player.  But in a Welder filled Fish list, we're looking at a very different context.  The Fish player doesn't mulligan to 1, lay Tormod's Crypt, and then never resolve another spell for the remainder of the game.   

[Mantis]

Why isn't this thread in the improvement forum?  It would seem that this deck has a long way to go before being a viable contender in competitive Vintage.

Are you kidding me? This is probably the best thread we got going on the whole TMD. Seriously name me one that is more insightful to any aspiring deckbuilder?
This came off as trolling to me, if you got problems with these kind of matters discuss it with a moderator instead of derailing a thread.

[Guli]

All right here is another long post, but nevertheless very interesting because it will cover the evolution and summarize most things said in this thread. From there we will go on with the contribution.

When I look to the original list and the list I am using now I have to say they don't really look similar. But the way it feels and plays out and the core is still there.

4x Meddling Mage
4x Gaddock Teeg
4x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Sylvan Safekeeper
3x Sower of Temptation
3x Trygon Predator

4x Orim's Chant
4x Æther Vial

Won't go into detailed lists, just essential parts. Up here you can see the early beginnings. That deck is still good btw and not necessarily worse than all the other versions. But the first thing that comes to my visor is the CC of the creatures and Vial. Back then I didn't really understood Vial the way I do now. I see Orim's Chant, that is a good card in Vial based decks. It can quickly get your vial @ 2 and work well with Canonist and is an answer to Rebuild outs. Orim is a card to consider at all times if you have room left. This list is solid, but not optimal. First thing we did is replace the sower and trygons with creatures that had 1 or 2 casting costs.

Also Tinker was a problem but that wasn't addressed with Welder immediately but with Magus of the Unseen. The core of the deck remained though

4x Meddling Mage
3x Gaddock Teeg
4x Ethersworn Canonist
4x Sylvan Safekeeper
3x Gilded drake
3x Magus of the unseen
3x Bouncer
3x Believer

The orims were cut to make room for more creatures. A lot of critics came about not adding Tarm. Also Believer worked his way in and stayed in for a very long time.

Then it came to me, Welders call. I already was a fan of Welder in fish because I know he is an asset. But in here? Adding red? Yes red was added just because of Welder. I made room by cutting Magus of the unseen. Here is the list that flowed of it and I am proud of it. It is really strong. But before that list came into existence things were experimented with charge counters and painters. That was all interesting but a bit complex. So here is the list after Welder

4x Meddling Mage
3x Gaddock TeeG
4x Ethersworn Canonist
3x True Believer
4x Sylvan Safekeeper
3x Goblin Welder
3x Gorilla Shaman
3x Gilded Drake
3x Waterfront Bouncer

By now skullclamps were being used and I discovered the power of clamp/vial in the mid game. This list is the 'Spartan Fish' version btw. And it is a rock solid one. It answers everything out there; artifacts, creatures, combo, control. But still I am not the type to sit on a list, I will look for variety and new ideas to improve. If I ever go back blue it will be to this list and work further from that point. Very Playable.

The idea of cutting blue didn't come easy. Meddling mage alone is a reason to run blue. But I was trying hard to make the deck flow better and also to cut safekeeper. Not because it is a bad card but to make the deck rely less on protection by making the threats more serious. Also the mana base was not super stable. Well that is not entirely true because it always backed 1-2 basics and vial but still it was on the edge. The pros outweigh the cons? I don't know my friends, but I do know I have to walk the road to tell you the story. I cut blue, added more acceleration. The rest is recent. But i ll mention it for the formality of the post.

Brian was one of the persons that worked with me on this Vial-Control theme. He was one of the first to start with this project. So prompts to him. Also to explain the latest version I ll just quote myself mailing Brian.

Hi Brian

What is your current list of Vial-Control?

Here is mine, I am toying around with Welder/Gamble/Vault. I also try to play with easy castable and strong creatures.
Canonist + Tarm is what I enjoy these days. They both require 1 color and do what they need to do. One slows down the game while the other speeds the clock. You know how I feel about Welder. They belong in fish (Tinker,Stax,Canonist). I found a way to make Welder more appealing and in short more effective with Gamble. I combo out very often now while I am putting pressure with teeg/tarm/canonist. I am also using Susher to prevent being controlled and get my lock pieces and combo through. Gamble is good with Tarm too. It nets him +2/+2 most of the times. I enjoy the deck a lot but I miss Meddling Mage. But that is just feelings that I am talking about. I don't think the deck really misses them. I also stabilized the mana base drastically. I play with 3 basics and it doesn't affect the deck at all. In fact it's even good for the flow the rainbow configuration. (when i have my 3 basics first 3 turns they shine like rainbow)
I believe I am more direct with this list.

3x Gaddock TeeG (Tendrils, Gifts, FoF, FoW, ichorid, stax, ad naus, chalice, explosives,...)
3x Shusher (Chalice, Mana Drain, FoW, Control,...)
4x Canonist (Combo, slows game down, great with vial,...)
4x Tarmogoyf (Less turns=less spells, aggro,...)

4x Welder (Tinker, Slaver, Shop, Aggro (canonist blocks), gamble+vault)
4x Gorilla Shaman (My walking null rod, kills everything with 0-1 cc and even 2 mana when you have the land count, with 3 basics this goal is not far away, +welder)

4x Gamble (experiment, +welder, +tarm,
3x Voltaic Key (I found them very useful with vials and canonist, + vault)
1x Time Vault
3x Skullclamp (This engine is worth it, once rolling you will combo out very easy, aggro, contro, stax)

4x Vial ( Smile )
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mox Sapphire
2x Chrome Mox
3x Mountain/Forest/Plains
6x Wooded/Windswept
2x Pleatuea
2x Taiga
2x Savannah

SB:
3x Wheel of Sun and Moon (this should be good vs oath and ichorid)
3x Pithing Needle
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Stingscourger
3x Viashino Heretic

The connection between main and sb is not optimal yet.

What are your thoughts? Also what do you think on cutting blue ...

I think I covered most parts of this 7 page long insightful thread. This thread is not about lists or a single deck, it is about a theme. So to the people who have nothing better to do than trolling, read the thread please and you will understand that you are not contributing.

The questions I asked Brian counts for everyone following this thread.

Thanks to everyone that helped out and shared their thoughts, keep it coming

Guli

[The Atog Lord]

My first concern would be to get some sort of draw engine into the deck. If the opponent is drawing more cards than you by a wide margin, you'll have a difficult time exploiting the openings that your deck creates. This means, first, going to a full four Clamps. That card is great. To supplement it, you may wish to consider Life from the Loam and Cycling cards. Countryside Crusher gets real big real fast if you do that. But then, before long you would just transform into another deck.

Without something like LftL, I'd cut Gamble. Believe me, I've played a lot of Welders in my day; and never once was Gamble good enough to consider, even with targets like Mindslaver. It's too situational. On its own, it doesn't do enough. You have no draw engine, and thus no way to recoup the cards lost.

Key is also too situational in your deck. Sometimes it'll be solid, sure. But most of the time it'll do nothing. It's a prime example of a card too situational to be worth including. Besides, in a blue deck, you have Tinker to find Time Vault for it, and Thirst to pitch it when you're not needing it. This has nothing of the sort.