Aggro & Control, the real meaning: Mr. Gaddock

[nineisnoone]

Clamp can be brutal, with 3x and 4x (answers not clamp) you will end up drawing at least 1 pretty soon. Especially with dual clamp on the 2/2's.

It's also 6 mana for only +1 cards, as it draws 4 cards but it takes 3 to play it.  Sure you get to keep the Skulclamps, but if you are clamping to draw they aren't really the cards you need.  I've never especially been a fan of Clamping just for card draw.  I do it sometimes, but I never consider it to be that strong of a play option.

[Guli]

Mostly I think you are diluting your deck by trying to address too many things with fairly narrow cards.  Welder/Shaman just seem out of place.  Welder has almost zero synergy with the deck.  The only thing that deals with artifacts is Shaman.  Shaman doesn't especially have any other support in the mana denial department.  In light of these additions, you cut Tarmogoyf (or I'm guessing you did), which to me makes Drake/Bouncer questionable.  Half of your creatures are 1/1's.  Can you really go into a UWB match-up and give them a 3/3 flyer?  Or can you just keep bouncing creatures when the best offense you have is a 2/2 bear?  I know about the Drake + Bouncer combo, but it's a 5 mana 2 card combo.  The deck just feels like its too many little synergies that simply plays not to lose and assumes it's going to win on the back of long-term inevitability, a concept which I do not believe in.  Even full-blown control decks are realizing they need to dedicate portions of their deck to winning.

I ll seperate:

1. Skullclamp: If you never used it for draw then you are missing the point of clamp. Clamp is your Bazaar if you have 28 creatures. It frigging cheap. Don't tell me how expensive you think it is, it is not especially with vials. The cards you get from it, the way he turns your 'useless' cards into 'useful cards is amazing. I truly wasn't aware of clamps potential. It nice vs aggro to trade cards or block and get fresh cards but that is not the real purpose of Clamp imo.

2. Tarmogoyf: I have tarmogoyfs in my deck, they just cost  . I can't start counting the number of times I exchanged drake with tarm or confidant.

3. Goblin Welder: This is the best 1 drop you can get. The anti-tinker is embedded in the card ... It generates mana, it disrupts mana, it can wipe out stax board with shaman, it can weld in canonist,vial or clamps, it can sac to clamp if he is truly useless in certain match ups. He lures out counters. Still not convinced?

4. Gorilla Shaman: Eating moxes is mana denial, agreed. I am not doing it for mana denial though. I like it when i go vial turn one and they play out a mox or two. Next turn Shaman gives me the potential to wipe out those moxes without a fight. Without Wastelands and Null Rod I can't really say I have a mana denial strategy, but I do have an effective surprise mox killer. And also things like Needle,Chalice, EE, Sol R, Mana Vault, Crypt, Chrome Mox, Vial can be taken out. It comes down to the cards who are played under a Canonist. So Shaman has synergy with Canonist. Imagine a Turn 1 Canonist. They could play out their moxes in response to the canonist. (I can still play artifact spells!) Shaman kicks in hard in those situations.

You need to stop and think out of the box mate, and ignore the colors and all the decks you have seen in the past. Look at the effects and what this deck really does. We tend to get used to certain cards and want to see them in the same lists or else its not 'right'. That is your internal modules speaking. Break it!

Take an established storm deck. Put down 2 land tapped, a vial@1, a teeg online while holding a safekeeper and a believer. Now take a good hand, nono take a godlike hand with the combo deck. I even dare to say, draw your entire deck. Try to win ...

Some indirect synergies;
Shaman+Canonist
Welder+Canonist
Bouncer+Canonist (they can't cast more than 1 creature)
Bouncer+Mage (name whatever you bounced, or rename in general or after bounce)
skullclamp+Bouncer (cards = more bounce)
...
I find it a bit disappointing after all the evolution that I have to rephrase a lot of things to remake my statements. This deck is full of synergy.

I don't need both drake and bouncer to do something about an annoying creature. They will both work fine alone. Every card works alone in this deck but the more cards that come together the more nasty things happen.

[v4ino]

Javelineer - Can't believe I forgot about this.  Gives you the edge in 'Goyf battles.  Hits Confidant and Welder (namely the two creatures who don't have to attack).  Blocks and trades with bears.  Removes bridges.  "Synergizes" with Skullclamp.

To forget something implies that you were reminded of this, what reminded you of how essential Javelineers are  aggro decks?

[nineisnoone]

I find it a bit disappointing after all the evolution that I have to rephrase a lot of things to remake my statements. This deck is full of synergy.

Well, I wasn't really trying to bring it up because I knew your reasons for your deck design.  I just mentioned it there 'cause I hadn't commented on your new list.  And then you asked.  I'm not especially convinced on your card choices, but I do understand them.  I just disagree with them.  It's mostly a question of design philosophy imo.  You are looking to play a creature based control deck, whereas I prefer a more tempo oriented approach.  This last deck steps further from making tempo plays, and that's why I think it's the step in the wrong direction.

To forget something implies that you were reminded of this, what reminded you of how essential Javelineers are  aggro decks?

Was tweaking my RGW aggro deck and noticed the Mogg Fanatics. 

[Mantis]

Have you considered Viashino Heretic? He basically does what you wanted to do with Shaman and Welder on it's own. With 4 Moxen and Lotus the 3 mana cost seems to be doable. Heretic is a beating against Stax, neuters Tinker (well except for Titan maybe, even DSC can be handled if there's no Time Walk involved) and eats up Null Rod. If you cut 3 Shaman and 3 Welder for 4 Heretic you free up 2 slots.

Also, has Lotus Petal been tested? It seems like a great manafixer and it allows for more turn 1 Cannonist/Teeg/True Believer against combo.

I find it a bit disappointing after all the evolution that I have to rephrase a lot of things to remake my statements. This deck is full of synergy.

Well, I wasn't really trying to bring it up because I knew your reasons for your deck design.  I just mentioned it there 'cause I hadn't commented on your new list.  And then you asked.  I'm not especially convinced on your card choices, but I do understand them.  I just disagree with them.  It's mostly a question of design philosophy imo.  You are looking to play a creature based control deck, whereas I prefer a more tempo oriented approach.  This last deck steps further from making tempo plays, and that's why I think it's the step in the wrong direction.

If you are looking to play a tempo deck then this is the opposite, from what I understand in this thread and the lists you don't run any cards that create tempo. You should see tempo as a Time Walk and most Fish decks use their mana denial to create more attack phases for their creatures to swing in. They don't care if they opponent would recover and rebuild in the long run because they are already dead by then. This deck is aiming for control of the game, it's creatures conviently also swing and are used both as lockpieces and win conditions.

To illustrate Mr. Gaddock would prefer both players to start at 50 life while most Fish builds prefer both players prefer starting at 10 life.

With that out of the way: if you are looking for a tempo orientated approach you should in fact move back to Null Rod, FoW and Chalice, those are really the best tempo tools available in the cardpool.

[Guli]

Well, I wasn't really trying to bring it up because I knew your reasons for your deck design.  I just mentioned it there 'cause I hadn't commented on your new list.  And then you asked.  I'm not especially convinced on your card choices, but I do understand them.  I just disagree with them.  It's mostly a question of design philosophy imo.  You are looking to play a creature based control deck, whereas I prefer a more tempo oriented approach.  This last deck steps further from making tempo plays, and that's why I think it's the step in the wrong direction.

No, it's good that you bring it up, it would be a shame if you didn't there would be no tension no discussion. Thanks

The word tempo can be interpreted in various ways depending on the context. In my design the context is spell denial. So the tempo must be searched in that domain. While I cast down a 2/2 beater I deny a spell in his hand. Or make other spells, that are there to make that 1 spell (tendrils) work useless. First that teeg has to go, then the combo can start. If you zoom in to this analysis you can translate it by saying, you are gaining a couple of turns by making them use their resource look for an answer. Wouldn't you classify this as a tempo play?
Now I am going to say something very subjective, and the title of this thread is  also connotes this. Aggro+Control should not be seperated in your deck slots. Every slot in the deck should be used for both elements at the same time unless it is absolutely impossible, exceptions can be made.
Do you really think there is a huge difference in impact on that moment in these situations:

1. turn 1 vial followed by turn two shaman with vial and eat 1-2 moxes
2. turn 1 land cursecatcher/duress followed by turn 2 null rod

Differences: Shaman can't be countered. Null rod can. I have an active vial and next turn real business cards will be hitting the board, cards that have the potential to nearly end the game. I can't use null rod because of Vial, but I can use a creature that can partly do what Null Rod does. So the aggro+control is in the creature not separated. And once the shaman did his job you can clamp him for other cards. These are real game situations, I play like this and it wins me games. I am comparing Shaman and Null Rod but only for a specific aspect, Null Rod is the better disruptor of course but not necessarily in this context.

By merging the aggro and control in 1 slot you are creating room.

You are looking to play a creature based control deck

This is kinda what I am trying yes, but how would you descrive aggro-control? Then you are not playing aggro-control but tempo-aggro or something like that.

illustration: Confidant & Believer

Why do you want to draw more cards? To have more threats and disruption. Not for the joy of it... there are people who do it for the thrill but that is another discussion.
You want to stop the cards of the opponent with those new cards while you beat down. True Believer does that instantly and doesn't rely on the next draw. Right there right now, speed = vintage. Add in a permanent anti-spot removal (safekeeper/mage/bouncer) and make them wish for their sideboard.

Another very important note is that when I am designing to crush combo/control I am not ignoring the other match ups! I will have a hard time against decks that go heavy on the aggro and use mana denial. But those decks won't get that far anyway in the meta. They designed a deck that have a good match (but not always, I have outplayed heavy aggro a lot with numbers and clamps) against this deck but they don't really have a chance against control/combo or any other match up for that matter. I don't think it is smart to go to a tourney with an fish-hate deck. You won't get far unless you really know it is going to be fish heavy. Plus it is really easy to hate that kind of decks back.
I am talking about decks that use Wild Nacatl, tarmp, kird ape, reb, pillars... it's not a bad match up but you they do have a slight edge over you. Still you have the means to control the game; clamps, drakes, bouncers, sheer numbers

The sheer numbers are relevant. And this is possible because of the merging I mentioned above. A matter of space and functionality.

The question still remains, rephrased a bit, is it better to dedicate separate slots for the control and aggro part of a deck? A perfect example is Force of Will. My Force has a 2/2 body.

Guli

[Stormanimagus]

 I think you're forgetting that a lot of important interaction against GOOD decks will happen in the first 2 turns of the game. You have very few good turn 1 plays and almost as few turn 2. Wastleand is going to be a cold reminder that your deck is 3 colors (or was it 4? I don't remember) and Stifle will similarly be a pain in the ass. I don't think you understand that decks like this that look good on paper rarely perform in practice. Aether Vial, while effective some of the time is really gonna be too slow against 80% of the decks out there or somewhat irrelevant (if they destroy it or cast Null Rod or what not). Spell Denial is a good approach, but you're too often gonna find yourself with the wrong answer for the situation, and then the combo deck will "just win" or the lock deck (stax, for example) will gain complete control of the game early. Goblin Welder could seem good on the surface, but if you are using it only to Weld Out the opponent's stuff than you are using it for the wrong reason. It is a great card in decks that are truly designed to abuse it. Otherwise it's kinda meh.

Also, there is power level to consider. If you are gonna be playing spell denial than I think you need Meddling Mage (I'm not sure if you were running blue) and if you have blue there are must includes like Ancestral and Time Walk, and, to a lesser extent FoW.

I'm just pointing out that your turn 1 interaction is almost non-existent and that is a problem.

Do these points of mine make some sense?

[AmbivalentDuck]

He has many excellent turn 1 plays, though.  He should be consistently plopping down *something* between his moxes and his 1 CC stuff.  Sure he fluffs against, say, Belcher and Ad Nauseam, but most decks will have to stop to deal with whatever he dropped.  His deck is one giant turn 2 play.  Barring idiotic mulliganing, turn 2 should almost always give him a must-answer nuisance.  His lack of selection is questionable (ie.  Why no Vamp, Consultation?), but his threats *are* pretty generic.

Honestly, he should be fine against Stax and other aggro, have some consistency issues with Oath (since he either can't target Empyrial Archangel or bouncing/taking Sharuum is irrelevent), and lose pretty consistently to Ad Nauseam (since he forgoes turn 0 and 1 answers).  I'd suspect a lukewarm Ichorid matchup, but he's plenty capable of messing up their Bridges.  And his Ad Nauseam and Ichorid matchups would improve greatly for the addition of turn 0 answers like Leyline in the sb.

Oh, and @Guli:
Cursecatchers eat Ichorid alive.  You sac them to counter any attempt to make zombies and take out their very needed disruption or reanimation.  Looking at your current build, I think the Cursecatchers would be far more meaningful as SB hate against Ichorid and Ad Nauseam than your Relics.  Relic is actually a turn 2 threat since it does nothing meaningful turn 1 and mulling into it means you aren't guaranteed a mox.  If Relic is against Yawg Will in general, there's no reason for it to even be in the SB: it should be main.

[Guli]

Isn't welder a decent answer against Sharuum/oath? Well Emp Arch is extremely annoying. No way to deal with that. Must target the oath i guess. Isn't the Arch more SB for oath?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Some of the versions I've seen online don't even care: they use the artifact during the upkeep and the game promptly ends.

Harl's version has no opportune time time break the loop, so you can still have infi zombie woes.  Plus you still have to choose between Sharuum himself and whatever he returns.

Arch is SB tech, but he'll be a major problem for you on the table...it would take...4+ of your guys to take him down?  And that's not the ones he blocks.

Heap Doll completely answers every Sharuum version I've seen, btw.  You can deal with the 5/5 flying...you're screwed against the combo.

[Stormanimagus]

Sharuum Oath is also a BAD deck, and hasn't proven itself AT ALL yet. You need to understand that magic is not a game of "Oh I hate this one deck strategy so I'm gonna snipe it." Even if a player IS playing that combo they will probably not walk in to you Welding it out. They'll find another way to win. You want cards that cut off a LOT of different strategies and routes to victory. That's the power of fishy decks. They have answers that overlap many different decks. I'll brainstorm a good fish list that isn't the stereotype and that takes in to account what I perceive to be the current meta and I'll post it in a bit. Hopefully it'll illustrate some of my points.

[AmbivalentDuck]

In other words, rather than building on the considerable testing already evidenced in this thread you're going to 'go it alone' in a few hours/days and do better?

I answered a question specifically about Oath.  It just so happens that Cursecatcher and Heap Doll *do* answer a variety of decks.  4+ cards of Ichi hate in the SB is typical of most decks.  The question is what can the hate can do splash damage to.


It doesn't need to prove itself to be good.  Just playing around on MWS, I've run into people playing a few different versions, some of which belong to major teams.  Some of the versions are very compelling.

[Guli]

Sharuum Oath is also a BAD deck, and hasn't proven itself AT ALL yet. You need to understand that magic is not a game of "Oh I hate this one deck strategy so I'm gonna snipe it." Even if a player IS playing that combo they will probably not walk in to you Welding it out. They'll find another way to win. You want cards that cut off a LOT of different strategies and routes to victory. That's the power of fishy decks. They have answers that overlap many different decks. I'll brainstorm a good fish list that isn't the stereotype and that takes in to account what I perceive to be the current meta and I'll post it in a bit. Hopefully it'll illustrate some of my points.

LoL what an attitude... Unbelievable. Still bring in the list. I ll dissect it in ways you never dreamed of.

[Stormanimagus]

Sharuum Oath is also a BAD deck, and hasn't proven itself AT ALL yet. You need to understand that magic is not a game of "Oh I hate this one deck strategy so I'm gonna snipe it." Even if a player IS playing that combo they will probably not walk in to you Welding it out. They'll find another way to win. You want cards that cut off a LOT of different strategies and routes to victory. That's the power of fishy decks. They have answers that overlap many different decks. I'll brainstorm a good fish list that isn't the stereotype and that takes in to account what I perceive to be the current meta and I'll post it in a bit. Hopefully it'll illustrate some of my points.

LoL what an attitude... Unbelievable. Still bring in the list. I ll dissect it in ways you never dreamed of.

I'm sorry if I sounded condescending. It just seemed like some of your explanations were not rooted enough in tournament Vintage experience, because my (though limited) experience at tournaments has taught me that decks that are going to be more 'reactive' need to be carefully constructed. They are exciting because there is more room for innovation and one doesn't need to really 'net-deck' quite the same way as would be more necessary with an estabished major archetype (TPS, for example), but the onus is then on the designer to not waste a single deck slot and to use all 15 SB slots very effectively. After looking back through some old fish lists of mine I found my "pony express" list and I've adapted it to something you might find intriguing. All right, tear away. Here's what I got:

GUW Fish

Land (18):
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
2 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (5):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald

Creatures (23):
4 Cursecatcher – Amazing at stopping combo, but also a good out against Ichorid. An important turn 1 play.
4 Meddling Mage ¬– This guy is still one of the best hosers in the game and provides a powerful effect against deck that rely too much on one path to victory.
4 Tarmogoyf (1G) – You need a finisher to battle other Fish decks and to provide a fast enough clock. This is, plain and simple the best one I can think of.
3 Gaddock Teeg (GW) – This guy is kinda iffy, but he does stop Tendrils, Dread Return and Tez from hitting the board. Though Gush is not around his effectiveness still seems relevant.
4 Ethersworn Canonist – Good at stopping unfair plays early in the game from Storm Decks. The problem is dropping him on the board in time. The coin flip will often determine whether this guy gets to actually DO anything against Storm decks.
4 Glowrider – This guy is amazing as a stall tactic against Storm decks and he is a 2/1 body that give you added clock. EXACTLY what this deck is looking for

Instants (9):
1 Ancestral Recall – Obvious.
4 Swords To Plowshares – This is a good answer to Fish and Oath. Also good against DSC.
4 Stifle – In conjunction with Wasteland this card is deadly to the opponent’s manabase. Also very good splash damage against Oath triggers and Storm triggers.

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk – Also Obvious.

Artifacts (4):
4 Skullclamp – This is actually somewhat questionable, but I think 23 creatures + warrants these.

SB
4 Thorn Of Amethyst (Storm)
4 Sun-and-Moon Wheel (Ichorid)
3 Oxidize (Stax)
4 ??

I even worry about THIS list not having enough turn 1 interactions but I suppose turn 1 Cursecatcher, or turn 1 Stifle will have to do for now. This is my draft including Green. I could also see a successful UWb list with Stormscape Apprentice and FoW in the mix.

[Dr.KnowMaD]

Very nice, I especially like the mana base and side board.  Though I have personal diffs with the creatures, not much just a few slots, I still find it to be solid.

[d0rsal]

@ Stormanimagus - just a cpl observations, but i'd say that you need to adjust your fetchlands to say 2 flooded & 3 heaths to avoid being "pithing needled".  i know thats probably being overly critical, but its an easy fix.  even minor tweaks can make a difference.  i also think that 4 clamps may be 1 too many; 3 just feels like the correct #.  anyways just a bit of perspective from an different view pt.   

[Guli]

Creatures (23):
4 Cursecatcher – Amazing at stopping combo, but also a good out against Ichorid. An important turn 1 play.
4 Meddling Mage ¬– This guy is still one of the best hosers in the game and provides a powerful effect against deck that rely too much on one path to victory.
4 Tarmogoyf (1G) – You need a finisher to battle other Fish decks and to provide a fast enough clock. This is, plain and simple the best one I can think of.
3 Gaddock Teeg (GW) – This guy is kinda iffy, but he does stop Tendrils, Dread Return and Tez from hitting the board. Though Gush is not around his effectiveness still seems relevant.
4 Ethersworn Canonist – Good at stopping unfair plays early in the game from Storm Decks. The problem is dropping him on the board in time. The coin flip will often determine whether this guy gets to actually DO anything against Storm decks.
4 Glowrider – This guy is amazing as a stall tactic against Storm decks and he is a 2/1 body that give you added clock. EXACTLY what this deck is looking for

How is this creature base going to save you from stax/prison? And on top of that I don't see any vial. A fish without Vial should have Null Rod and go for the mana denial strategy. Without vial you are giving the storm player way too much momentum to finish you turn 1 or 2. And against control you will walk into mana drain almost every game, you have no vial/welder to effectively get your canonist active. This list shows you have no idea how vial works. Vial is TEMPO and enables you to get down more threats down over the spread of turn 2-3-4 which is were the most action is. Turn 1 kills are not that common. If it was everybody should run Force of Will and Leylines and we would have a pretty boring meta.

Glowrider costs too much mana to have an effect. Cursecatcher is less effective without Null Rod. But I can see him helping out to fight against mana drain. Still absolutely no substitute. If they draw a sol ring, mana crypt or a mox your curse won't cut the deal mate. And T1 is filled with acceleration. Wasteland is not enough and stifle needs mana in the open. You don't have that mana you need to cast down threats. You see why vial is so important? It has a moment of weakness in turn 1 but after that it drastically changes the situation in your favor. If you call that moment of weakness turn 1 a gamble, then a lot of decks are gambling. Besides I often start with turn 1 canonist.

This deck is also completely out of place in this thread. It has no vials or believers. It is not the same theme. It packs the same cards but it will not perform in the same way. It will try to do 2 things at the same time and most likely fail at doing any of them in its full efficiency.

Overall I can not say this is a bad deck. If you really put it down in a couple of hours I must say nice work, but eventually you will have to choose a route. Mana denial (null rod) or spell denial approach with vials.

To end my feedback, I think your turn 1 is only slightly better than mine but at the cost of a weaker turn 2 - 3 - 4 with less threats and less answers to aggro, stax. Your match against ichorid is better with wastelands and cursecatcher. Against storm you have lots of answers and you will do fine. I would remove skullclamps and add Null rod in this list. But then you will have the problem of refilling your hand relying on a single recall. Clamps aren't going to do the job either because without vial they actually really do hurt your mana. And you also run wasteland which is even less mana to work with. One of the reasons I have so many 'pesky' 1/1 answers to specific problems is that they are easy to recycle. The bears that stay on board to attack and deny are all 2/2 (3/1). With Null Rod you might want to consider other colors. BUG works very nice with confidants and dures/force.

[Guli]

Another option is to cut blue and Meddling Mage, the drake/bouncer is replaceable but I am not sure about Mage. He won me many games but it is only 1 card he is hitting while TeeG, Believer and Canonist (yes canonist hits cards by delaying them, making them useless) are hitting a more wide range of cards. Do not misunderstand me people, I absolutely love Mage and I think he is a strong card in this deck but every possibility should be explored. And to really stay consequent in my theme there are still a lot of other powerful creatures to be explored. Why the sudden change of heart? It's not really sudden for me, I have been thinking about this for a while now but It felt like backstabbing Meddling Mage in a way. One of the arguments is that now I have an answer to Tinker with Welder. You know, there is no good argument. Mage is good. But I want to take a break from blue. If I see I am doing worse, I ll take a step back and reevaluate the situation.

I do get a more stable mana base again with 3 colors. I don't know why the blue is disappearing and red is coming in. Recall and Walk were always nice random draws. Drake/Bouncer were just a way to deal with aggro. If I ever go back to blue the reason would definitely be none other than Meddling Mage.

Cards to look into that have a global, immediate effect.

Magus of the Moon

Well I can see some nice interaction with Vial. And he does act as a spell denier. Yea powerful stuff.


Samurai of the Pale Curtain

This card is very nice to improve your game vs stax, ichorid and aggro. Since these were somewhat the match ups were improvement was in order this baby is an interesting choice. Cards like Welder and Tarm will be effected though. I don't think it is a big problem for me. A card worth the consideration. A question to Ambival: would this disrupt your oath/Sharuum?


Children of Korlis

Nice turn 1 drop against storm or vial@1 surprise! Also works against ichorid. Otherwise doesn't seem that great. Still earliest possible answer in form of a creature against storm, and that is what lures me. I like to secure the tendrils match before I move on to the rest because that is the earliest way to die in T1.


Aven Mindcensor

I don't think this is really helping out the match ups that need support. It would make a good match up even better, overkill?


Sulfur Elemental

It's funny, none of my bears would die with sulfur. They would all becomes 3/1. Can this be a finishing clock card? Synergy with Clamp? Or just a bad idea? Interesting at the least, still a bit dangerous i think. Won't work with aven and children.


Mirror Entity

Now this is better I think. I am planning on playing a full set of moxes to get more turn 1 Canonist and generally more acceleration. Without Rod this seems good. Mirror E can protect against pyroclasm and is of course a finisher. Seems Much better than Sulfur but yea it does require mana.


Duergar Hedge-Mage

I have zero play experience with this card. How does the 2 plain/mountain usually work out? Seems nice against oath and stax.


Eight-and-a-Half-Tails

Same idea as Safekeeper, but costs mana to use and is 2cc, but also beats for 2.


Saffi Eriksdotter

Another card that can provide protection. Seems a bit odd but you can always abuse this card with clamps. I think it is better than it looks but maybe not good enough. Should be tested.


Painter's Servant

Why not? With the red, REB idea comes to my mind. Problem is he doesn't deny spells, and eats up slots (you want to at least play a couple grindstone with him)


Kataki, War's Wage

Too many artifacts, can't work it in.


Canonist, TeeG, Believer, Welder, Shaman, Safekeeper are still in the list. That is about 20 creatures. Match ups that are good with these dudes are:
1. Combo (Teeg/Believer/Canonist/Safekeeper/Vial/...)
2. Control (Vial/Clamp/TeeG/Canonist/...)
3. Shop (Vial/Welder/Shaman/Clamps)

The dredge must be dealt with. I am promoting Samurai, Pale for that slot. In that match up welder isn't relevant anyway so the potential bad interaction between samurai/welder is irrelevant. In the shop MU it does matter i guess but this can be in our advantage if played correctly.  Its more of an answer to crucible and opposing welders tricks. I can't visualize how this would work out and that is exactly why I must try it out to give more insight here. Against bazaar/Welder variants I could most likely use both welder and samurai. Needs real time testing.

I also want to use Magus of the Moon. I know he is 3 mana but his effect appeals to me. This stops Bazaar based decks. Strip/Waste is also stopped. I think this guy has a lot potential with vial and fits the theme spell denial and at the same time mana denial. With Shaman alongside you can truly make it hard for the opponent finding his colors to cast spells.

I am no sure about Tarm actually, i rather have main deck answers to oath or something

I think with magus, the mana base should have 1x forest 1x plains. They will get teeg, canonist, tarm, keeper in play. And you always have vials. wooded/windswept of course

Are you guys a bit disconforted by me chaning the colors all the time? Or do you find it good to explore all kinds of colors for ths theme? Black is also possible, Yixlid Jailer and Confidant don't seem bad Maybe later we ll try black. At the end of all this I expect to find the correct colors with the correct creature base tho! Keep up the good feedback, thanks

Guli

[Guli]

Highly experimental list : 30 creatures WGr-Gaddock-Vial

    4 Sylvan Safekeeper (combo, control, fish)
    4 Ethersworn Canonist (combo, control, fish)
    3 True Believer -1 (combo, control, intu/gifts, dures/though, edict, hymn, grindstone, belcher,...)
    3 Gaddock Teeg (combo, control, stax, ichorid)
    3 Goblin Welder (tinker, stax, artifact.dec, slaver, control)
    3 Gorilla Shaman (moxes, needle, artflands, ring, crypt,..)
    4 Magus of the Moon +1 (bazaar, shop, combo, control, basically can be good against all multicolored decks)
    3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain -3 (ichorid, curicble, sharuum, aggro general,...) Maybe will try to work him in later, for now he is out, i liked him though
    2 Mirror Entity -1 (this is a much better clock than tarm in a deck with 30 creatures, in fact if timed right with vial it will end the game)
    2 Vexing Shusher +2
    2 Eladamri's Call +2

    8 clam/vial
    7 lotus/moxes/petal
    5 fetch
    2 plain/forest
    8 non-basic
(with vial maybe a couple land can be cut)

SB:
3x Shattering Spree (has been amazing)
3x Pithing Needle
3x Wheel of Sun and Moon (has been amazing)
3x Dead/Gone
3x Emerald Charm

Shoot me!
Guli

[Mantis]

If you are looking for a way to improve your Shop matchup:

Possibly for the sideboard though.

[chronatog]

Hello,

First of all, I think you are onto something with this deck.  Maybe this is just wishful thinking, but control-fish seems to score ok.  (Almost everything with 4 FOW scores well, but that's another debate.)   Anyway, here are my modest questions :

Jotun Grunt ~~  A 4/4 may not be fit into the overall game plan, but I wondered if he could help you do something against dredge or Belcher decks.  I say I am wondering : since I don't play enough I don't know if he's fast enough or if his ability provides enough resilience.

Icatian Javelineers ~~ Don't we all need to deal with one-toughness creatures ?  I did not re-read everything you said earlier, so I am not sure if you did not answered that already.  Maybe replaceable with Grim Lavamancer, though you already told us that you don't like to keep your mana busy.

Eladamri's Call ~~  I know it's a bit slow (ain't that always true), but with this and a vial, that could be a three mana response to absolutely most annoying things.  But maybe the crit tutor might help you create some free slots.

I should try something that looks like this soon enough.  So in any case, thanks again for your work.

[Guli]

After play testing several games I am really happy with the new color approach. It is not ready yet though. Some general and some specific notes:

The deck did not really change in the way it wins or operates now that Med Mage is taking a break.

Samurai is a really nasty card in some match ups but I am not entirely satisfied with him. I am still learning how to play him correctly with welders/shamans. The replacement effect really helps tho against ichorid, affinity, Ywill (petal,lotus,lion,moxes that died by shaman), stax it is a bit more tricky, you need to be careful how you play it out. But against bazaar/stax you really want both welder and Samurai. Against aggro he was ok but not game breaking.

Magus of the moon on the other hand was a hoser. I really enjoyed the forest/plain/pearl/emerald with magus and vials. It stops so many things you can't imagine. This guy is good and narrows down (denies spells) the resources of the opponent. A nice 'trick' is to tap vial and ask 'ok?' They don't break a fetch in response and once he hits it is too late. The combo destruction squad was doing their job as always while magus was amazing in between. Really hard to play against with control or combo. I have to admit Magus does more than meddling mage.

The mana acceleration with full moxes + petal was nice. I dropped more turn 1 teeg or canonist. Sometimes the dual white was a problem tho. Need to work on that. the saph and jet could be partly responsible for this. I will work on it. It is fixable.

My GOD, Mirror Entity is amazing. When he drops and you have all those moxes and lands lying around you basically end the game in 1-2 turns. Tarm is NOTHING clockwise compared to him. And I did some cute clam tricks with him. Truly the best clock I can wish in this heavy creature deck.

I can't say yet if this version WGR is better than the WGB version. But I do feel I am hurting more opponents in more match ups.

TeeG, Canonist, Believer, Magus Moon, Welder are cards I definitely want to keep in this theme. About Welder,... He is amazing. He is much more than you think in Vintage. He answers Tinker so effectively. He forces in a countered Canonist, Vial, Clamp. He outplays stax on his own (well thanks to my piloting of course). The only problem is that he needs a turn, but in his case it is really worth the summoning sickness. BTW I have been destroying affinity decks with shaman. It is not funny how he keeps eating shit all day. He truly is strong guys. He eats Key, Grindstone, Chalice, Speaking of CotV. I might try out Vexing Shusher in the near future. He is after all spell denial against control. I don't want to much of them just enough to act as a vial 5-6 against control. And as Welder too i guess when it comes to the artifacts.

I also think with all the mana and vials Eladamri's Call doesn't sound that bad at all. Thanks for reminding chronatog! I have noticed you don't want 2 Mirrors. You really want 1 though but never 2. I think Mirror is worth tutors. He is an extremely powerful win condition. You don't get to live more than 2 swings when he hits. I have a couple cards I want access to in this deck but I don't want them as 3 or 4 offs.

2x Vexing (chalice@1, mana drain, counterbalance, nethervoid, ...)
2x Mirror Entity (All your creatures become Tarms)
2x Eladamri's Call (He is practically a Demonic Tutor in this deck)

I will try without Samurai and add another Magus. The Sideboard is amazing against ichorid. I ll just crush them game 2 and game 3 if I can't find my teeg/magus/clamps game 1.

I marked the changes.

[Stormanimagus]

Ok, I'm not gonna be a kill-joy because it does seem like you are on to some interesting tech in a WGR variant of fish, but I'd like to know more about the decks you tested against and how good the pilots were. I have a fundamental disagreement with you about NOT including at least some major staples in the deck (i.e- no black or blue). Your opening game locks seem more like 'soft locks' and your card draw seems very shaky (Skullclamp aside). Skullclamp IS a good draw engine, but it should rarely be the ONLY one. I worry about this deck frequently 'fizzling' by virtue of playing out all it's early game threats, having them answered or circumvented, and then just getting completely overrun by Card Advantage. I think you can perhaps get away with the early lock pieces going most all the way against Combo, but you are seriously asking for trouble against TeZ or Mana Drain control decks. Or even Tyrant Blue or Tyrant Oath. You're going to have serious problems with those decks as far as I can tell right now, and Mana Drain decks seem to be making up a lot of the field. without Duress, or Thoughtseize you are NOT attacking their hand, and, against a control deck, that is a big priority.

Some good ideas man, just pointing out a bigish weak spot.

And no, vial does NOT solve all your problems. If it did then vials would be played in every fish or RG beats or TMWA deck in existence and it is not.

[brianpk80]

And no, vial does NOT solve all your problems. If it did then vials would be played in every fish or RG beats or TMWA deck in existence and it is not.

But you're mistaken: vial solves all of our problems.      Most of its unpopularity stems from its conflict with Null Rod and the fact that other lists don't have a high enough creature count to justify it.

On a more serious note, the concern of having a less relevant Turn 1 play is offset by running Tormod's Crypt.  I run 2 copies and some in the sideboard.  I have a decent Ichorid match-up.  They help against Will, Dragon, certain Oath, Slaver, Combo, Prison, and more.  Crypt can be used to keep Glimmervoid alive in a pinch (in dozens of games, I've still only lost Glimmervoid from "natural" causes but once).  There are times where Welding Tormod's Crypts into play over and over is critical.  I always liked having something to throw out on Turn 1 and Crypt fits the bill. 

[Guli]

On a more serious note, the concern of having a less relevant Turn 1 play is offset by running Tormod's Crypt.

I didn't want to run Crypt because dredge runs chalice@0. But since I run shaman/welder/Vexing I should be able to play around a turn 1 chalice and get that crypt down.

@Stormanimagus  I really appreciate your skepticism and criticism. That is what makes a thread a good constructive discussion. I will try to answer your control match up question.

Control/Drain/Tez/Tinker is a strong deck. It can always win no matter how many hate you run against them. It would be foolish to make your deck overabundant with anti-control elements. Now let's just look at the cards SB included that have good play against control.

Vial is not a joke. A must counter for very very obvious reasons.
Welder is a serious threat because it will disrupt your gifts/tinker plan and weld in canonists even if you drain them
Vexing is your nightmare, especially if he gets in teeg.
Shaman will be able to eat your mana base you are setting up between your card advantage drawing. And it can easily get rid of Volt Key.
TeeG will stop your important key cards, gifts,fof, tezz, force which will force you do go tinker route but that is also a problem because of welder.
Magus is very very annoying, stops LoA, shuts down access to black. Less efficient if red was a main color though.
True believer is not that much of a threat i guess, sure it stops your gifts and intuitions and thoughtseize. But he won't really make it that hard, just be annoying.
3x Shattering Spree will rape your board
3x Pithing Needle will make your combo useless
3x Dead/Gone will answer DC/Plats
Remember if you somehow manage to get in TeZ, you should be able to protect it as well, with so many creatures you will have to combine it with time walk.
Clamp is also a serious threat because of the card advantage it generates and if a mass removal hits you can vial in the next wave.

Ok I explained the card pool against control. Wouldn't you feel comfortable with all those cards at your disposal against control? You will have a great match up believe me, it is not just on paper it is real. Even against good control pilots the match will be favorable and 1 mistake from the control player and he can pack.

Duress and thoughtseize? I am running them. They have a body thought.

I also think that the Eladamri's Call/Vial is an unexplored but very promising route. I run 2 of them and whenever I casted them I wanted more of these tutors. It can grab you mirror if you sense pyroclasm (and his friends) is coming. Or if you don't have a vial but you really need to get down something you can get vexing. This can happen if they have a chalice@1 or holding mana drain/force. You can easily cast it at end of their combat phase to avoid a good drain on their part. This way you don't need to run multiples cards you really want in there for specific match ups.

[Troy_Costisick]

I didn't want to run Crypt because dredge runs chalice@0.

You can always run Relic of Progenitus instead.

[nineisnoone]

there's been a lot of action on this thread since i last checked it... will give my thoughts eventually....

but if you are going RGW, Wild Nactal is crazy good. 
there's a thread in the improvement forum covering some ideas
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=36972.0
different deck ideas (more aggro/temp), but just something to look at.

[Guli]

Ye i saw that, and the idea packs similar cards but the origin is different. I would never pack Wild Nactal even if I find him good especially with mana denial. I won't just drop a 3/3 and pass the turn that would make me very vulnerable without mana denial. I can't afford to drop just beaters, every creature that hits the board must have such an effect that it draws attention in a way it can not be ignored or at least have a very solid ability. Examples are believers and canonist. I don't have the room basically.
A note: Needle is a great card right now, I side him all the time. Why not play him main deck?
Bazaar,fetchlands, Vault, Grind, TeZ, GrimLava, Opposing Shaman/Welder, Wasteland, sensei, scroll rack,triskelon I know it is not a creature and a specific card but it really hits many cards in different match ups. Great SB card but why not play it main if it is sided in so much. I have found that you can easily stop tez and tinker but as you all know these days things like transmute artifact or just  a random quick key/vault is possible. Meddling Mage did help but wasn't a permanent solution either. I find Shaman and Welder very effective in dealing with the key and moxes still needles would help. There are things like hooligan and kami. Hooligan would be nice to kill artifact and then attack or sac for clamp. Takes care of Chalice@1 and Null Rod which can be crucial. I don't like that he can't be vialed in and destroy though, sets me back.

Guli

[Stormanimagus]

Just in case people were interested in a more Zooey approach, I came up with this more aggroey list last night. I'm not sure how it'd do in practice, but I found a more linear aggro deck idea kinda intriguing. Here's the list I came up with. I'm really interested to know what people think of Tidehollow Sculler. I think he could be great in UWb fish lists as well as more TMWA lists with RWB. Here's the list:

Vintage Zoo

Land (17):
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
3 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Plains

Artifacts (5):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet

Creatures (22):
4 Wild Nactal
4 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Dark Confidant
3 Gaddock Teeg

Sorceries (8):
4 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Demonic Tutor

Instants (8):
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Red Elemental Blast

SB
2 Kataki, War’s Wage
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
4 Sun-And-Moon Wheel
1 Artifact Mutation
3 Oxidize
3 Tormod’s Crypt

[chronatog]

Hello again,

After a few simulations (I am still learning how to play with MWS, Apprentice and Mindless Automaton), here are some of my observations :

Mirror Entity.   It rocks.  If it is a clock, it's an atomic clock -- two turns suffice most of the time.  But it needs a wall of bears to be efficient.  Skullclamp does not help that.  The Gargadon might be of some help, at least vs Oath decks.

Skullclamp.  I don't like it when I have it in my starting hand.  The first creature that hits the table must soft lock the spells of the opponent.  If opponent removes that creature, I have problems.  I tried to replace one Skullclamp with a Sword of Fire and Ice, as a MTWA's successful version did.  A 4/4 bear that draw cards while staying on the table is quite neat.  Maybe too slow.  In mirror matches, either the Sword or Mirror Entity becomes the game breaker.    The lack of a drawing engine will be a problem against versatile deck.

Magus of the Moon.  It hurts.  I don't know if it hurts me more than opponent.  Opponent does not need much colors to come out of the soft lock.  If an opposing Mox Monkey comes out and destroys the AEther Vial, it spells doom.  I tried to replace one or two with Aven Mindcensor ; I like the fact that he's a flyer.  I never felt that 3cc was too expensive.  The problem would be that Vial is less effective (2cc and 3cc instead of mostly 2cc's), but it's been good to me yet.  Pithing Needle might replace the Magus, in a way, too.  Since hindering the manabase can win games all by itself, it might be that wastelands and strip mine could be added.  Anywho, the deck seems to need blue or black.  Isn't that always true?

Maybe I just don't know how to play.  Even if I did, I insist that I did not seriously test those ideas.