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Author Topic: Oath of ghouls reformed  (Read 6697 times)
Guli
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« on: January 09, 2009, 07:20:51 am »

Hi everybody

I know there are a few people on TMD that experimented with the black Oath and some threads were dedicated to the card. I am one of them. However I think that those lists and threads are out of date and to respect forum guidelines I decided to open a fresh and new thread about this underused card that has a lot of potential in decks that fundamentally want to use creature as their disruption, tempo play and win condition.

1.  The card itself

Oath of ghouls is not a win condition. The card is an engine in early mid game and its strength grows the longer the game goes on. This sounds on paper a very good card for fish decks. However it is not easy to successfully implement this engine card into a deck. From my gaddock thread i refer to the importance of choosing the correct creature base to get an optimal effect when it comes to performance and goals of a deck.

To maximize the effect of Oath, creatures with the next abilities are first in the candidate lists.

1. Sacrifice abilities with a relevant effect in our meta (example: Mogg Fanatic)
2. Discard abilities (example: Wild mongrel)
3. When comes into play (example: Stingscourger*)
*Combined with echo it is more powerful
4. The new mechanic evoke (is a bit a mix of the latter)
5. Cards that are non-creature but work well with oath like Cabal Therapy

To make it work in a meta were turn 1 and turn 2 kills are not uncommon you need to make your 1 drop creatures answer those match ups and support them further with your other spells. To make this concrete:

4x Cursecatcher
4x Children of Korlis

to support cursecatcher and children:

4x Duress (remeber you don't really want thoughtseize because of Oath of Ghouls)
4x Null Rod

And there is a new card (if i look back at my old list) from the new sets that will greatly help out:

4x Faerie Macabre



Why this card?

1. He is not affected by countermagic
2. He is free (turn 0-1)
3. The grave hate is very relevant (Y will, dredge, dragon,...)
4. In a mirror (fish) he will make the difference when the oath battle begins
5. He is good vs Tarm

I was kinda surprised when I saw this card for the first time. I was using Withered Wretch but he costs 2 mana and put more pressure on my mana base for the duration of the game. Well a wretch is better when he is online and you have mana but in real game you appreciate the fact that Macabre is free and interacts so nice with the black Oath.

Curse+Children+Macabre are cheap and strong disruption cards. With Null rod and Duress on their side you have a good match against combo and control/combo. The Oath is very good against control heavy decks.

To have more board control against aggro and to dead cards in grave or pitch creatures in grave to be able to oath waterfront bouncer is a good card in the deck. But he won't be enough and to support him Sword to plows are required.

A specific problem is the green counterpart. There is not reason not to add a main deck answer to druids. Kami of Ancient Law will also help when you want to be the one oathing in mirror. Also cards like Leyline and planar void should be dealt with as well. Random Moat's or Abys appear from time to time. He sounds like more SB card but that is up to the pilot. I use him main deck.

The purpose of this thread is to share thoughts and ideas about the card Oath of Ghouls and to criticize my selected cards.

There is always room for improvement in any deck. But some pilots have gone a long way with specific ideas and have certain insights about the mechanics of certain archetypes. I consider myself as someone who used the black oath a lot and have lots of experience on it. I believe my approach is very strong and with me as the pilot this list will do just fine. But that does not mean that I am closed to feedback. If I was I would not post my thoughts and deck to receive and interact. In other words, this deck does not need a lot improvement. However the lack of tournament play and tournament results forced me to post this one in the improvement section. I would like to hear YOUR thoughts about the idea though.

Oath of Ghouls by Kadir aka 'Guli'

1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Pearl
1x Swamp
1x Island
4x Polluted delta
3x Flooded strand
4x Underground Sea
3x Tundra
1x Scrubland

4x Dark Confidant
4x Cursecatcher
4x Children of Korlis
4x Faerie Macabre
3x Waterfront Bouncer
3x Kami of Ancient Law

4x Oath of Ghouls
1x Time Walk
1x Ancestral Recall
4x Duress
3x Swords to plowshares
4x Null Rod

SB:
3x Pithing Needle
3x Tormod's Crypt
4x Orim's Chant
1x Swords to Plowshares
4x Anull

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KingHeavy
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« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2009, 12:53:17 pm »

whats your plan on winning, I mean your kill condition?

I was working on a deck using oath of ghouls and oversold cemetery(basically the same thing) to get a soft lock going with faearie mcabre, fulminator mage, shriekmaw, and pardic miner in a legacy shell, but have wanted to bring it toward vintage, however we both still need a kill condition.  If there is a "sac to destroy target artifact" creature in red out there let me know!
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Bill Copes
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« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2009, 01:04:29 pm »

Here are two:

Hearth Kami:  http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=30590

Goblin Tinkerer:  http://sales.starcitygames.com//carddisplay.php?product=31687

(The Tinkerer doesn't necessarily "sack", depending on your target)
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BruiZar
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« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2009, 02:06:32 pm »

I'd go with ingot chewer myself.

The deck doesnt go broken nor does it have any counters besides 4 duress theres not much there to just go broken with tendrils and ignore your whole gameplan. Also, magus of the moon hoses your entire deck if you don't respond with a quick fetch for island. The idea looks good but it definately needs some more impressive creature abilities
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Guli
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« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2009, 05:26:20 am »

Thanks for the feedback. Red is definitive a viable color pick, it has some interesting sac creatures. How would you configure the creature base if you would go with red and what other colors would you choose and what will be the general strategy. I opted for black, white and blue because of the strong 1 drops i get vs storm and i can use confidant and oath as draw engines. Maybe white can be replaced with red to have more artifact hate and maybe even mogg fanatic. It is an option.

I can see the problem when an early magus of the moon resolves. I do have some basics/moxes and a good number of fetches. The mana base can support more basic lands i think but I wonder if it is really crucial. Is TMWA heavily present in your meta?

Quote
whats your plan on winning, I mean your kill condition?
Establishing control with your oath and creatures and beat with numbers. I think you are asking where the clock is? I never found it crucial in this deck. Your creatures keep coming back with oath. You are generating a lot of card advantage with oath/confidant. Rod/Curse/Macabre/Duress is hard to deal with when you are trying to combo with Will/Rituals. It is quite an effective disruption. Negator sounds interesting though, you can sac some creatures and get them back. Do you think Negator would be an ok clock these days? There is bouncer/stp to deal with big blockers.

Good feedback! I like it and keep it coming...

Thanks

Guli
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Relwarbeht
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« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2009, 10:55:40 am »

I don't have much to say here, but it seems like you might want to use offalsnout (I have no idea how to spell that), the 2B Flash Creature that removes a card in a players' graveyard with B Evoke in the board for Ichorid rather than crypt, just based on synergy.
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Guli
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« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2009, 12:58:46 pm »

That is interesting, i was thinking about Heap Doll to have additional grave hate and another 1 drop and try to work in Ninja's for more draw. Also with more blue Force of Will can be added. The problem with Heap Doll is Null Rod. Suppose the white is removed and we stick to 2 colors, the mana base would become more stable and waste/strip can be added to have a very solid mana denial strategy with the shell rod/curse/strip. Combined with main deck grave hate that can not be countered and is at instant speed I see a strong shell. Dredge will have a hard time with all the sac abilities and grave hate. Any deck based on setting up mana and casting will will also have a hard time breaking through that kind of disruption. Welder based decks won't do much harm either (Slaver). Any form of aggro that can't get rid of the black oath will lose the attrition war. It is hard to win with creatures if the opponent can just get back it's blockers with Oath.

Shop can be problematic. Blue and black aren't that good colors to include artifact hate. I guess it is a matter of drawing a the right cards at the right time. You won't go in a strip lock though with the grave hate. Oath can help against smokestacks. But there are no real silver bullets and well that is the match i have to grab to the SB. Maybe i could try out Annul in main deck. With the vault combo dancing around and with white out Kami Ancient Law goes out and it doesn't sound bad to have something against oath as well.

« Last Edit: January 10, 2009, 03:08:08 pm by Guli » Logged

nineisnoone
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« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2009, 01:25:35 pm »

I second the Negator suggestion.
You could also play Bitterblossom, which is a decent win condition, great aggainst aggro, and pretty good against most shop strategies (despite not touching artifacts specifically).

Against shop in blue you have Hurkyll's Recall, Rebuild, and Magus of the Unseen.

If you keep white you have Serenity and Kataki. 

If you run White, I would just add in Serenity in the SB.

If you cut White, I would consider Bittblossom in the main.

Going with a tutor package of Mystical/Demonic/Vampiric would also let you just run a singleton Recall/Rebuild in case of either.
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Guli
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« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2009, 05:35:02 am »

Negator is 3 mana, without rituals it becomes rather slowish in my experience. White could give grunt as a bigger body and also have some grave hate and can get back with oath. I experimented with bazaar/oath builds in the past with some degree of success.

Bitter blossom doesn't give a clock. And to be honest 1 game plan involving an enchantment is enough if you want to make it work. How about stifle/trick and dreads as a clock and additional mana disruption.

 
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BruiZar
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« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2009, 08:04:02 am »

Maybe you could twist the deck up a bit and do this:
Cut blue all together.

4x Hide // Seek (Removes tezz,tinker,dsc,timevault, // bounces DSC, Time Vault, Mox Diamond, Leyline of the Void, gain life making children somewhat redundant.)
Faerie Macabre (Hates Ichorid, Yawgmoth's Will, Dragon, anything with welders and so much more)
Ingot Chewer (Improves WSAggro and Stax matchup through recurring cheap artifact hate as well as hating on so much else..)

Creatures:
Confidant (Draw, painful with )
Magus of the Moon (Silver bullet vs decks like storm or other drain based decks, works nice in conjunction with ingot chewer)
Syg Rivercutthroat? (Ingot Chewer+Hide/Seek can hurt under confidant) doesn't work under this build

Other considerations:
Kataki (Further improves workshop based matches)
Jotun Grunt (Clock, maybe redundant due to faerie macabre... Don't think I'd run it)
Goblin Welder (Further improves workshop based matches + slaver)
Goblin Legionaire (Improves matchup against fish or goblins through recurring shocks)
Dunerider Outlaw - vs Tarmogoyf heavy metas?

« Last Edit: January 11, 2009, 08:13:41 am by BruiZar » Logged
nineisnoone
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« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2009, 05:42:58 pm »

I've found Negator being 3 to be irrelevant in my experience.  Most of the time I'm playing things on the early turns like Cursecatcher, Rod, Duress, i.e. disruption cards before I would want to play my Negator anyways. 

I have a personal dislike for Jotun. I would never run him in, basically, any deck.  I've just never found him to stay on the board or disrupt enough to be worthwhile.  But that's a personal distaste I guess.

Bitterblossom is a fine clock.  It deals 21 damage in 8 turns (or turn you play + 7 attack steps).  That's on-par with a 3 power 2 drop and damage-wise better than your average bear.  It isn't quite 'Goyf, but it has resilience to many forms of removal and has plenty of other uses.  The main drawback is it's not as good as Dark Confidant and you don't want that many forms of self-damage.  I would run it over Negator if not for that fact.

And to be honest 1 game plan involving an enchantment is enough if you want to make it work.

I don't know what that means.

I used to be huge on Dreadnaught + Stifle, but whenever I ran it I also ran Illusionary Mask which is precluded by Null Rod's presence.  It's certainly an option to look into (and giving me ideas...)
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« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2009, 04:40:30 am »

seriously, since when is a 7 turn clock considered a clock? Bitterblossom does nothing in the form of tech whatsoever. Also, when blossom is removed it can't be recurred by oath of ghouls. The card just doesn't fit in the deck imo
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« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2009, 05:37:51 am »

Jotun Grunt (Clock, maybe redundant due to faerie macabre... Don't think I'd run it)
Awesome suggestions. This is exactly what the deck needs. Grunt is awesome with Oath of Ghouls out and it's a strong clock. It also disrupts your opponent, what more could you want?
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Guli
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« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2009, 11:11:43 am »

Bitterbossom is a good card in many match up's but I have to agree with Bruizar here. I don't see bitterblossom increasing the deck's strenght. I have been very surprised by the disruptive power of this pile. I will elaborate.

I changed the original list btw:

5x Strip/Wasteland
3x Null Rod
4x Cursecatcher
4x Stifle
4x Force of Will
4x Duress
3x Faerie Macabre

This disruption base packs mana denial, spell denial and grave hate and I think it is nicely tuned. (maybe you can make little changes if you prefer)

4x Confidant
3x Oath of Ghouls
1x Ancestral Recall

These give the pilot card advantage and mid game strength.

You have the draw, the disruption and the mana base. Maybe trickbind/Stifle/dread is just what the deck needs to keep it simple and strong. I am using bouncers which are great for control and with oath but that is perhaps a too passive approach after such great disruption. there is another interesting card that is new and non heard of. The funny part is that he is also a Phyrexian.

Phyrexian Soulgorger, he is not trample though and that could make the difference in many situations. I say dread or negator but I opt for dread and stifles though they take up slots. Or maybe just both? To have more firepower.
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nineisnoone
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« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2009, 01:57:36 pm »

seriously, since when is a 7 turn clock considered a clock? Bitterblossom does nothing in the form of tech whatsoever. Also, when blossom is removed it can't be recurred by oath of ghouls. The card just doesn't fit in the deck imo.

Anything that is 2 power, imo, serves as a clock.  2 power is just the bare minimum.  It gets stronger as it goes up obviously, but if you've played Wild Nacatl (3 power 1 drop), you'll see that that that 3rd point of power makes it very strong. 

You could always go Bitterblossom + Cabal Therapy, which would go well with your Oath of Ghouls.  An early Bitterblossom breaks aggro stalemates on it's own, does great things against any Shop deck, and pretty much ignores removal spells and is very resilient to bounce spells.  I don't consider it mandatory by any means but it's certainly something you shouldn't presumptively dismiss.

You seem a bit light on blue to run FoW, but that's just me.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2009, 02:01:28 pm by nineisnoone » Logged

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Guli
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« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2009, 03:19:49 pm »

Maybe this list will catch more attention. The dreads are always good to win the oath battle btw against mirror. Does matter!

// Lands
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Wasteland
    4  Underground Sea
    4  Polluted Delta
    2  Flooded Strand
    2  Island
    2  Swamp

// Creatures
    4  Dark Confidant
    4  Cursecatcher
    3  Faerie Macabre
    4  Phyrexian Dreadnought

// Spells
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Time Walk
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Sapphire
    4  Force of Will
    3   Duress
    4  Null Rod
    4  Stifle
    3  Oath of Ghouls
    2  Trickbind

This is a very straight forward list and very strong in disrupting anything out there. Oath is your big chair were you sit in when the game goes on longer. I see 16 blue cards, isn't that enough to support force of will. I would like more acceleration though but am worried about rod.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2009, 03:43:05 pm by Guli » Logged

nineisnoone
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« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2009, 03:35:01 pm »

Usually, I like to be closer to 16 + 4 FoW.  You can get by with less though.  I think I mistook what you were cutting/adding as I thought it was a little less than that though.
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« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2009, 06:49:43 pm »

in your latest build the oaths look very redundant. Only faerie macabre serves as the toolboxright now. I don't think you want to go with nought if youre looking to maximize oaths potential. As I mentioned before, ingot chewer is a card you want to play. There's always something to shoot, be it moxen, null rods or chalices. It would make bitterblossom redundant even more so for its ability to trump workshop coupled with wastelands and stripmines. Hell you could even use life from the loam to recurr strips she dredge creatures in the grave for oath, green gives Goyf to, a real clock.
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Guli
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« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2009, 03:39:45 am »

The cursecatchers are one of the best reasons to run oath. Oath is a strange card, you can try to play with lots of sac creatures and try to really build the deck around oath. Even though I think that is a worthy attempt you still need to be able to cast your stuff and effect the game. So I think when you are using oath you have to choose 2 at max 3 abilities that you want to reuse. I picked mana denial with curse and grave hate with Macabre. Dread can help me win the number of creatures in grave battle when playing aggro (alongside macabre) when I am waiting for that stifle/trick.

Hope I made it clear that my view of oath.It is not about playing lots of creatures it is about playing the ones that you need and the ones that are relevant in this meta and let the oath do its job and not rely heavily on Oath at the same time. Remember you can oath once with 1 oath, it is physically impossible anyway to get back all those abilities or effects.

Sticking with only 2 colors gives me a smooth mana base and gives me the option to run waste/strip without disrupting myself. Adding another color is possible but I want to see how you work out the mana base then. The list I posted is very similar to the UBG Rod version in the open section. But instead of Tarm and Negate I run Dread/Stifle. The Oath and grave hate are additional control elements that I use.

When my oath is up the macabre/curse become crazy good and I can get back the confidants/dreads to finish up. Also occasionally you have the luck of a turn 1-2 dread/stifle with or w/o force backup and a lot of decks just can't deal with it. It feels almost like the early vault/key win but a bit more vulnerable I guess.

I am curious on how you would work out a UBr version. Please make an attempt and post a list so we can talk about it.

Guli
« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 03:52:55 am by Guli » Logged

Guli
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« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2009, 05:09:30 am »

iHell you could even use life from the loam to recurr strips she dredge creatures in the grave for oath, green gives Goyf to, a real clock.

Ye this is good I think it would work. But you will need the loams and the oaths and the strips. However it is rather slowish and would require green. The time and mana you spend on Loam is not to be underestimated. Wouldn't a quick 12/12 trample be better when you have momentum?
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« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2009, 09:11:52 am »

I don't have the time to think out a complete list right now, but I was thinking along these lines:

Creatures:
3x Ingot Chewer (Always something to do for the chewer)
3x Faerie Macabre (Makes sure you have more creatures in your yard, plus hates the usual)
4x Tarmogoyf (Faerie Macabre may look counterintuitive, but it's not because it should be used against threats and creatures)
4x Dark Confidant (Card Draw)

Card Advantage:
4x Oath of Ghouls (Allows you to choose what you draw with LftL)
2x Life from the Loam (Puts creatures and lands in your grave and gets lands out)

Disruption:
4x Duress  (Proactive counter)
2x Thoughtseize (Proactive counter)
3x Wasteland (Striplock coupled with chewer eating moxen everyturn)
1x Stripmine (Striplock coupled with chewer eating moxen everyturn)

Mana:
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Emerald
4x Mox Diamond (Makes goyf bigger, LftL can get your land back. Allows for double duress, first turn ghoul followed up by Faerie Macabre, First turn confidant and Goyf meaning basically the entire deck can be played in the first turn.)

I'm not sure if stifle nought is a bad decision, because I do see the value of cursecatcher.

Fire away at these thoughts
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« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2009, 10:28:28 am »

How many lands are you planning to run to support Mox Diamond?  I've never really liked it that much except for in some shop builds (and I guess that Parfait deck).

If you are running LFTL and black, you should be running Raven's Crime.
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« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2009, 04:48:18 am »

I don't have the time to think out a complete list right now, but I was thinking along these lines:

Creatures:
3x Ingot Chewer (Always something to do for the chewer)
3x Faerie Macabre (Makes sure you have more creatures in your yard, plus hates the usual)
4x Tarmogoyf (Faerie Macabre may look counterintuitive, but it's not because it should be used against threats and creatures)
4x Dark Confidant (Card Draw)

Card Advantage:
4x Oath of Ghouls (Allows you to choose what you draw with LftL)
2x Life from the Loam (Puts creatures and lands in your grave and gets lands out)

Disruption:
4x Duress  (Proactive counter)
2x Thoughtseize (Proactive counter)
3x Wasteland (Striplock coupled with chewer eating moxen everyturn)
1x Stripmine (Striplock coupled with chewer eating moxen everyturn)

Mana:
1x Mox Ruby
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Emerald
4x Mox Diamond (Makes goyf bigger, LftL can get your land back. Allows for double duress, first turn ghoul followed up by Faerie Macabre, First turn confidant and Goyf meaning basically the entire deck can be played in the first turn.)

I'm not sure if stifle nought is a bad decision, because I do see the value of cursecatcher.

Fire away at these thoughts
I have done many different colors and approaches with all kinds of different abilities and strategies. Being able to destroy artifacts does seem relevant and Ingot fits in with the oath of ghouls theme. I would not waste time on things like mox diamond. Sure use it if you think it is worth it but it is not a crucial or essential topic.

In the perspective of colors, you suggest next to the main color black to add RED and GREEN. This version asks for tarms and ingots for sure. Without blue you won't be able to force/stifle/curse though and these cards are solid cards in T1 and you will have to give us a very solid reason to drop them.

4 Oath of Ghouls
4 Dark Confidant
4 Faerie Macabre

This seems to be the part of the deck that you want to start with in all cases. Alongside this shell you want clock, more disruption, board control etc

Tarm as a clock does seem an okey choice. However Macabre does not only remove creatures, in fact most of the time it gets rid of other stuff to make Y will less powerful and with AC and DA being used he comes in handy. He also is great against aggro because aggro means Tarm in most cases and he can effectively control Tarm with an Oath. Still there will be times that you won't reuse macabre and just beat with Tarm. I can definitely see past the dis synergy here but still it is not optimal and tarm does not help you to Oath while dread has that potential. Thing with dread is he is an extreme clock, when he hits and there is no good way for the opponent to do something about it he will really come in with a shock effect and he is fast and can compete with those angels against oath of druids.

He also is nice against stax or prison because of the speed he provides you can quickly end the game while they try to prison/lock you.

I don't recall any creature that has a stifle effect with sac ability. Would be nice to have a 1 drop with stifle effect or something like that.

Life from the loam is the other green card that is worth a look. I think it is very nice with Oath/Bazaar versions. I would add crop rotation in that kind of approach. Without Bazaar I personally wouldn't go for loam engine. You need more than loam/strip or loam/oath to get the job done. I prefer the solid curse/rod/duress/force packet with stifles/tricks as acting both as disruption and get dread in.

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« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2009, 05:07:45 am »

Well if I was going to play Oath of Ghouls of the top of my head I would play with the Street Wraith over Dark Confidant.  You'll lose more life but also gain way more cards.  And they are uncounterable, faster, better beater in the end game. 

I actually liked the Bitterblossom idea except not in this.  I want BRx with Goblin Assault ( think Guli had something going?) But thats a dif. subject


go,go re playable curscatchers,
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« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2009, 06:03:06 am »

Dark confidant always will get you card advantage and with Oath he can always swing without fear because I can get him back. I want to suggest to play both confidant and streets but i am worried about the life loss. Maybe with white (children of korlis) you can keep the draw engine on line in mid game. With streets Vampiric/Mystical/Seal become luring as well.
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BruiZar
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« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2009, 06:57:33 am »

I think I'm going to have to agree with you on Dreadnought. Not just because it's an insane clock that is stronger than DSC, but also because running stifles combines very well with street wraith, which is why I definately  agree on Street Wraith too, it's a one-sided howling mine for 2 life per turn. The thing about street wraith is that you can cast a vampiric tutor for FoW, Misdirection or Stifle and draw it with Streetwraith in response to someone's win-condition (stifle for tendrils, grindstone activation, tezzeret activation) (FoW for whatever seems necessary) Or take a Misdirection for a Recall or something. Also, don't forget that street wraith has swampwalk, which occasionally could come in handy. I'm not sure if this is the right path, my first thought says no, but maybe a Jitte can give you some life gain. Faerie Macabre, Street Wraith hardcast both have evasion.

3x Faerie Macabre (Makes sure you have more creatures in your yard, plus hates the usual)
3x Dark Confidant (Card Draw)
4x Street Wraith
4x CurseCatcher
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought

Plus a whole boat load of counters and duresses/seizes
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Dr.KnowMaD
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« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2009, 07:37:25 am »

I was actually thinking of a package more like this.

4-street wraith
4-cursecatcher
3-faerie macabre
2-Phyrexian Drednought
2-trinket mage

This would up my blue count and allow a small trinket package to go in(like the jitte, or another one of ? skullclamp ,pithing, explosives, something useful), though this could be all wrong it was just a quick thought/possibility.

Also the idea of red could be real hot.  I'm going to think a bit more about this one more.


Dr.KnowMad

Transmute/cycling creatures?

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Guli
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« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2009, 08:14:26 am »

I think the suggestion of streets is good. I also think it should be combined with  and tutors. Sure a lot of life will be lost but you will get cards in return. I think the best way to handle the life loss is to use the cards you get from tutor/street to make your opponent lose even more life with the gotten cards. This translates into getting a dread on the board and protect it. With tutors and streets this is possible. The question of using time vault/key as well comes to my mind if a lot of tutors are used. It can not be ignored it is out there. I think even if it is 2 cards they should be left out to keep focus in the deck and dread doesn't care about null rod.

5x demonic tutor/vamp/imp Seal/mystical/Dem Consultation (tutor)
4x Faerie Macabre (grave hate)
4x Cursecatcher (mana denial)
4x Street Wraith (draw)
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought (clock)
4x Oath of Ghouls (draw)

4x Null Rod (mana denial)
4x Stifle (mana denial)

3 lotus/saph/jet
5 strip (mana denial)
2 island
2 swamp
6 fetch
4 U sea

Dark Confidant is great but you need slots. With all the great ideas flying around you have to make choices. I do feel that we are going into a direction were Oath of G becomes more centralized and more important. The problem with this is that you really need to get down Oath. I guess with all the tutors you can get away with a countered oath by getting a second one.

Trinket is not a bad idea at all. I am thinking Cabal Therapy with him. Still there is the problem of space. I think personally I would play the instant/sorcery tutors.

I want some hard counters in the deck. Macabre is free, street is free, curse is cheap. Mana leak sounds pretty strong here. And Force of course.
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the boogie man
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« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2009, 11:24:36 am »

I don't think that the imperial seal is crazy good at all. It telegraphs your moves and is really slow and card disadvantage. demonic consultation, on the other hand, sounds great.

I also think that 4 naughts might be a little much, You almost never need to see 2, especially in a deck that recurs them.

I also think that you need confidant or trinket mage. for beaters right now, you have naughts, cursecatcher, and faerie macabre. either of those creatures will add card advantage and beats to the deck. Your 3 mana spot seems pretty open, and you are already killing yourself with street wraith, but confidant gets you cards every turn without eating up your activation.
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« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2009, 11:37:20 am »

I find it difficult to believe that there isn't a white creature with either a sac or cycle ability that would mitigate the life loss of the streetwraith draw engine.  Were I to use that engine I would look for such a card.
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