[Premium Article] Insider Trading - Are Proxies Hurting Vintage Tournament Atten

[oneofchaos]

Before the rise of proxies, Mox prizes were actually sought after so that people could trade and use them.  Nowadays, Black Lotus goes straight to ebay.   When 9 times out of 10 people just sell the Mox prize even when they don't own a Mox, that is a problem. 

Another way of putting it, and perhaps the best way, is this:

Assume you have no power, and you win a piece of power in a tournament.  Should you sell it or keep it?

With 10 proxies, the system strongly incentivizes you to sell it.    If you have only a couple of pieces of power, it's unlikely, even if you are a particularly good player, in the near term that you will win the rest.   Unless its the last or among the last of the pieces of power, the system incentives immediate sale.

With a lower proxy system (say 5 or less), it's worth keeping the first couple pieces of power.   

When people have less power, they are less likely to test, let alone play in tournaments.  if you own power, you are more likely to be interested in playing the format.  the more people play, the better they will get, and the more Tournaments will happen, since more players will be better and more interested in playing.   

Owning power is like owning a share in Vintage.   It not only has value and makes you concerned about it's health, it also makes you more interested in it and connected to it. 

I want a system where winning a Mox is a prize that Vintage players will want to keep and not sell off immediately. 

Yes, with 10 proxy events odds are quite high that you would sell a mox that you won.  However, Travis had a nice tournament about two years ago for 4 workshops (about that long?).  Everyone is tired of moxes being prizes.  We need more tournaments that offer imperial seals, grim tutors, mana drains, bazaars, workshops, etc.  This will lower the entry fee to 10-15 dollars, and it would only encourage newer players into the format.  The prize is something they'd keep due to needing it to play in a 10 proxy metagame, not something like power that you would part with.  The alternative is what I'm trying to convince my store owner, only allow proxies for power 9. 

[Tha Gunslinga]

The reason players sell prizes is that they'd rather be playing for cash in the first place, and selling the prize just turns it into cash.

[Enrik]

Well it has been a long time since I last posted anywhere about magic maybe 4 to 5 years and about as long for my tournament attendance aswell. I do try to read about vintage and also I try very hard to "corrupt" the newbies into playing older cards to open their eyes to what is out there.  So Vintage is at a bit of a crossroads right now and we as a community are trying to figure out how to fix it. Proxies seem to kinda hurt / help the cause depending on where you are at, Wizards doesn't seem to care about tournament support, and everyone is bummed about lower turnouts.

The most interesting time I can remember was around the 8th edition release before mirrodin. Alot of rumors were circulating along with artwork for a lotus and a mox. People in my area were going insane because they thought the power cards were getting reprinted with new artwork and now there would be foil versions. We are talking people who had been playing forever and had multiple sets of power and who were excited about buying new cards to nab "the new versions of power". Sadly the 10th anniversay of magic wasn't that awsome lol, but it raises an interesting point, why not reprint some of the old cards?

This may solve several issues really
1. New reprints at some rarity in new magic sets. I and most people would probably buy new magic products if such a thing happened.
2. people unpowered will now have a chance to grab power cards and bring fresh players to the format. Maybe even sanctioned tournaments.
3. Like any magic card price rarly drops that much upon reprinting as long as its not reprinted to death. 1 reprinting wouldn't kill prices.

Logically this would have to happen eventually if Wizards gave any thought toward vintage. After all we are fightiing to nab cards that were printed 14 to 15 years ago that were in limited printings by todays standards and have by luck survived natural disasters, ex- girlfriends and soda spills.

[rilegard]

Reducing the prize to the players that use proxies was just an idea.
Obviously it cannot be done when the reward is a card.
I don't know a tournament that applies it and it probably will never exist.

But think about this situation.
If you eventually could invest a lot of money and build a no proxy deck then: would you find normal
that people with a fewer investment (who uses proxies) had "the same chances"?
You could answer: yes, the main reason of allowing the use of proxies is bla bla bla ... bla.
But there is a group of players that don't like the inclusion of proxies.
This is about having everyone happy (which is very difficult).

Really I don't know if this kind of reward adaptation would make proxy players more or less interested on
getting the power cards.

[d0rsal]

Vintage should be a sanctioned Proxy format.  Rules could easily be rendered that would not conflict with Wizards promotion of their sealed packs.  Let's face it, sanctioned tournaments are all about Standard, Draft and Extended.  There is much less interest in Sanctioned Legacy and the almost non-existent Sanctioned Vintage scene.  So, a simple ubiquitous ruling would be something like: Proxy cards are allowed in ALL Magic formats.  Proxies cannot be used for any set that is currently legal in Extended.

i think that Nehptis may be on to something here.  if this were done in conjunction w/ FNM it is my belief that we would see an increase in T1 players.  competing to win alternate art cards would appeal to T1 players, just as it does for T2 players.

[The Wolf]

Before the rise of proxies, Mox prizes were actually sought after so that people could trade and use them.  Nowadays, Black Lotus goes straight to ebay.   When 9 times out of 10 people just sell the Mox prize even when they don't own a Mox, that is a problem. 

Another way of putting it, and perhaps the best way, is this:

Assume you have no power, and you win a piece of power in a tournament.  Should you sell it or keep it?

With 10 proxies, the system strongly incentivizes you to sell it.    If you have only a couple of pieces of power, it's unlikely, even if you are a particularly good player, in the near term that you will win the rest.   Unless its the last or among the last of the pieces of power, the system incentives immediate sale.

With a lower proxy system (say 5 or less), it's worth keeping the first couple pieces of power.   

When people have less power, they are less likely to test, let alone play in tournaments.  if you own power, you are more likely to be interested in playing the format.  the more people play, the better they will get, and the more Tournaments will happen, since more players will be better and more interested in playing.   

Owning power is like owning a share in Vintage.   It not only has value and makes you concerned about it's health, it also makes you more interested in it and connected to it. 

I want a system where winning a Mox is a prize that Vintage players will want to keep and not sell off immediately. 

So if the first place people put prizes is on ebay, doesn't that mean that people on ebay are Buying Them?  That being said I feel like i should agree with you about this, but the fact that limited is by far the most popular format in magic says something.  There is no sort of card connection in limited.  Also, type 2 cycles constantly and people still play that a ton more the vintage. 
From the way you are describing it, it seems we have to trick people into playing vintage.  People aren't moving to other formats cause they feel more of a connection to their Cryptics.  If you like a format you should not care at all what the cards cost.  There just pieces of paper either way.  If your a collector fine, but this is a thread about tournament health.  The value of the cards your playing with should have nothing to do with what format you play, unless its a barrier to entry.

@Smmenen:  I feel that your devotion to this format warps your opinion of this a little bit.  No other format needs to have a prize that people feel special about winning.  The issue for most magic players is just the game and the cards are tools, (keep in mind im talking about tournements.)  There is something else wrong with vintage.  I feel its the lack of any community building over the last few years, but again, that brings up the question, Why do we need to community build for vintage?

Lastly, There is no such thing as having the prizes "worth more."  You have x people in a tournament, and the payout is Y.  The fact that for a while the payout happened to be a mox was just what the TOs have been doing.  The reason was, the TO made more money.  This is why starcity liked there P9 tourneys.  They got to rip people off for cards and give them out as prize when people were paying for entry as if the cards cost their value and make there money on top.  The P9 tourneys are a cash cow.  Im not bashing them for this cause they are a business, but using proxies does not reduce the ratio of money put into a tournament by the players vs money given back

[jamestosetti]

This will probrably be disorganized but I'll give it a shot. Proxies probrably do hurt the price of p9. Proxies probrably do hurt attendance. I dont like like proxies and here is why. I'd rather play with the real cards. I think Magic cards should have little to no value.It's a peice of paper meant to play with. Vintage is definitly the rich mans game. Wizards of the Coast would be smart to reprint the power 9 and ban them all the way to Vintage and here is why. They'd be able to have sanctioned Vintage all over the place again. Who cares if it devalues the cards anyway. Its not like buying power is going to help you to retire. If you need to spend 2,500 hundred on a paper investment get some life insurance or an IRA. On tournament attendance. I'd say it hurts the attendance because if you need proxies still you probrably can't afford to travel to the tournament in the first place. The price of power is ridiculous in the first place. At the price there at now it nearly elimintates most of the potential new Vintage players from ever playing in a sancioned tournment wich says vintage is meant only for people with higher wages. Arguing this topic though is like pulling teeth because nothing will ever be done about it. Wizards is going to look out for the people who own power not for those who want to aquire it. They have done an awesome job with printing new fun cards for the 2 formats though. I play on the workstation so I can always play Vintage. I own different Vintage decks to about 6 proxy And will continue to fork over money untill I own the other 7 power cards which will drain my money until I get them. And then when I get them It will be like wow that was an incredible investment that will have such a minimal impact in my life. I'd venture to guess that alot of people who own power did not pay for it themselves or they aquired it when it cost around 400 for a lotus. That in itself is unfair because it says the only people who can play sanctioned type 1 are the players who got in early or the ones who have alot of money. These cards are basically game peices. They are not diamonds. They should be readily available. Think about this Wizards. If you reprinted the power nine in a future set how many packs do you think you would sell? You would probrably have a record year is what you would have and a giant increase in interest in the game. Now for the people who are about to cry about the price drop. If you cared that much about money you would have invested your money. Thats like crying over spilled milk. Those people are far out numbered by the people who need power so they can play. Another thing, Vintage isnt as popular as it should be because it isnt played for fun in the magic stores because noone has power to be slinging or to be showing new people how to play.

[Stormanimagus]

@Stephen- Is there any way to get this discussion seen by the folks at Wizards? They need to know this is an issue within the Vintage community so they can see the ideas people have come up with and try to come to a solution that benefits the most peopl and promotes the format.

    Peace,

       Noah

[jamestosetti]

Here are a few more facts I'd like to point out.I'm not trying to be a jerk when I say these things I'd just like to share what I've noticed while following Magic.Wizards employee's are somewhat freinds with top ranked Magic players and to some extent do what those players  would like done. The dci....judges... are also friends with top ranked Magic players.WOTC listens to dci judges. What I've noticed is a sort of unproffesionalism. I've also noticed most of the arguments that take place among Magic players are on the 3rd grade level and never result in anything but attention seeking. I think to much room is left for non Wizards employees to decide the fate of this game. Alot of the people getting the say in whats done are the ones taking home the rewards. Take this for an example. Star City games is the largest distributer of magic cards in the world. They take it upon themselves to employ top ranked Magic players and to publisize the game and share there experiences with the Magic community wich is great to an extent. I've read from there columns that Wizards employees ask what it would take for them to play in a certain format. That is catering to a certain crowd. Wizards may as well sponsor these players. It seems to be like a sort of high society club and what that does is give players a false hope of being one of these people. Magic comes down to a few things. It's a certain type of game meant for people with certain interest and at most for the the everyday player will never be anything more than a fun thing to do with other people. There are a select few with the money to travel to grand prixs and qualifiers let alone the cost of playing type 2, a format that rotates every 3 months. The average highschool grad earns 12,000 dollar a year. Playing a format that rotates every 3 months with the hope of becoming a pro player seems a bit cruel in the first place. Wizards should be more supportive of all formats. In supporting all the formats at the pro level and the grand prix level the magic community will find the best of the best players. Also who cares If these people make there living off a card game? The rest of the community goes to work. I think what they do is pretty cool but they are far the minority.If Wizards is concerened with the price of a Mox why dont they print them again and ban the new ones and say only old ones are legal.  I think these things are the way they are because Wizards is listening to the wrong people about what needs to be done for the majority to be happy. No offense to anyone I just like to say what  I find to be true and I don't like to just be a follower and say that I'm happy when I'm not.

[jamestosetti]

Here is another perspective to this topic.Wizards not printing new power for the community is like watching an injured animal and doing nothing. Technically it doesnt matter if I help this animal or not. I find it ridiculous that they let these topics go on for years and years when they have the power to print new peices of paper so that everyone can have there fun. When it comes down to it, it is pretty insulting. They call it power 9. Power? Ive seen some pretty powerful things in my life but taking an extra turn or drawing three cards or being a mox just doesnt impress me to the point of calling it power. What it is is an important peice of a game. This is pretty ridiculous to deprive players of what they need to drive up the price causing people to practically worship this flimsy peice of colored cardboard gamepeice. This is like not making anymore kings in chess and saying you cant play with us anymore unless you buy a 5,000 dollar king. But this king must be an original from a certain company. I'm just pointing out that the real power lies in the ability to easily print these 9 cards Instead of watching the dog die from a cold.

[AmbivalentDuck]

@Stephen- Is there any way to get this discussion seen by the folks at Wizards? They need to know this is an issue within the Vintage community so they can see the ideas people have come up with and try to come to a solution that benefits the most peopl and promotes the format.

The view seems to be that it sucks, but there's little they can do.  Also, reprinting the power 9 is possible, but only if they give it away.  They can't sell it.  So no ultra-premium, ultra-rare power bundled in with new sets.

[Troy_Costisick]

@Stephen- Is there any way to get this discussion seen by the folks at Wizards? They need to know this is an issue within the Vintage community so they can see the ideas people have come up with and try to come to a solution that benefits the most peopl and promotes the format.

The view seems to be that it sucks, but there's little they can do.  Also, reprinting the power 9 is possible, but only if they give it away.  They can't sell it.  So no ultra-premium, ultra-rare power bundled in with new sets.

A "From the Vault: Vintage" would work.  But I just don't see this as something that would be viable in WotC's eyes.

[jamestosetti]

You want to talk about mythic rares, lets talk about about mythic rares and that extra land you get in the back of the booster pack. How about making mythic rares comprised of 9 certain cards in the place of the land cards? WoTC is twisting your arm saying there is little they can do. In reality there twisting your arm saying there is little you can do about it. Making these cards foil or non foil also has benefits. Printing them devalues the old p9 but who set that value in the first place? Printing them  and foiling them is like killing 2 birds with 1 stone.It compensates for the lost value forcing the old and new to settle at a decent price in old and new players eyes alike.

[jamestosetti]

I'd also like to talk about what smemmen wrote. Owning power 9 is like owning a share in Vintage. I want a format where winning a mox is worth keeping.  I am not so fond of that staement and here is why. There are no shares to be bought in vintage but only in the company wizards of the coast itself. Ive already touched on the subject in the other posts I made when I said an investment should be made in the form of an ira or life insurance. Another reason people sell power when they win it is because the same people winning the power already have the power and really just enjoy playing so why not print some more power and let more people play so we can find out who the best players in the world are and not just who had had the money to play and won today?

[Smmenen]

The reason players sell prizes is that they'd rather be playing for cash in the first place

Exactly.  The 10 proxy structure makes it silly not to want cash instead.

[Sean Ryan]

Good topic, but I think you are way off on your interpretation that by eliminating proxies in the U.S. you will grow the Vintage community. Their is certainly a relationship between the U.S. and European markets, but I don't think it follows that if we did not have proxies here we would have attendance comparable to Europe or even higher than we do now. Other posts have already highlighted some places where your argument breaks down, but here are some of my thoughts.

I think you are really discounting how important population distribution and infrastructure can be, which are really part of a culture that tends to foster high attendance at events such as GPs or soccer matches Wink Another question that guides this discussion is what does Vintage have to offer that is unique and different from other formats? It is not nor will ever be something that has significance to the pro tour, nor should it. The limited supply of the essential cards is the primary reason for this which is exasperated by time and increased demand. Legacy is much more suited to sanctioned tournament play, and with one GP a year it fills a nice niche without excessive demand pricing people out of the market.

You are, however, correct that proxies are affecting the market value of power, and their is definitely an incentive to for Americans to sell their power on to the European market. As someone who is a player first and not as concerned with maximizing financial profit from cards I value access to proxies much more than the worth of my power. As a dealer I can see how you might differ.

Ultimately, you need the demand to really drive price and the demand before proxies were allowed was much lower because the player base was smaller. This historical view is essential to understanding our current situation. Without a representation of the American Vintage scene before larger proxy events were present you have a hard time making your argument. I played back then and let me tell you it wasn't pretty.

If you didn't have power you couldn't consistently compete, which gave no incentive to truly innovate. It was a stagnate incoherent format that rewarded those who were able to secure the cards, whether by getting grandfathered in or through economic means, but it did not reward design or play skill. Remember, this was before Null Rod Fish was discovered as the poor mans anecdote, which ironically came into existence once the format was able to mature through the development of a coherent metagame based upon proxy events).

A couple ideas:

1) We need another Sanctioned Vintage tournament to rival the Championships at Gencon that pays out large prizes, perhaps something the SCG "Vintage Proxy PtQs" could lead up to. The Gencon Championship just doesn't pay out enough to motivate attendance.

2) Think about allowing CE, something we do here in the Northwest. The argument that they are marked cards has never stood up to me. They can be altered, played in tougher sleeves, or you can just shuffle your opponents deck if you are concerned. You could do this in conjunction instead of proxies, or with pay for proxies in addition to CE. From a dealers point this is gravy because you just pumped up the demand for power and CE while most likely not significantly lowering the player base.

3) If power is not being valued highly by the American players market the events with Cash payouts that tilt toward the top rather than being so evenly distributed through the T8. For example you could do a $2500 payout at $30 dollars a head and profit with 100 participants. I think you would draw more people by tilting it toward the top and paying cash. Here is a conservative example:
1st $1000
2nd $500
3rd/4th $250
5th-8th $100

4) Reward players/decks that don't use power with real prize support to create an incentive to play. This would have to be more than just a door prize for the best unpowered list. I would recommend altering the pay out so the best unpowered deck gets at least the same as 2nd place in the top 8, even if that means lowering your T8 payout.

In conclusion, I would like to caution against trivializing the significance that the SCG proxy events have had on the development, and subsequently demand for the Vintage format. That being said, you are right to challenge the status quo as something needs to be done to stimulate further growth. I just wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Thanks
Sean

PS One can hope
Printing or reprinting the power 9/ect. with alternate art for a Eternal only play is the only real long term answer to the problem of Vintage. People, especially dealers, who have a large investment in power would scream the sky is falling, and the price of power would probably drop, but not as much as one might think. However, the increased demand for the format in general with access to these cards, in conjunction with the elimination of proxy tournaments and a sanctioned Vintage GP would ultimately increase the value of Vintage cards in general to such a degree that it would make up for losses in the aggregate. Imagine if their was an eternal reprinting of alternate art power at Mythic rarity in conjunction with a G.P. or PtQ circuit. The player base would explode increasing demand for all of the Vintage staples. Wizards commitment to collectors not to reprint the power is akin to government granting unions excess power, benefiting union workers at the expense of the consumer and economy at large, and this is coming from an Obama delegate Wink

This was my initial reaction to Ben's article on SCG, and I've been following the discussion since.  Regardless of where you stand we should all thank Ben for stimulating this much needed debate as it indicates the community is in need of a change.

After taking some time to consider some of the more intelligent responses I am becoming more persuaded that something fundamental needs to change.  While bracketing Ben's faulty logic from his otherwise sound observation that while proxies helped to give birth to a developed Vintage metagame they are now contributing to its current decline in the U.S.

Here are some of my conclusion:

1)  If you are going to allow 10+ proxies you must accept that power will be devalued and must subsequently restructure your prize structure with cash, tiered toward the top.

2) While smaller local venues may or may not keep the 10+ proxy rule, SCG should move to reducing proxies down to 5 in a PTQ style string of venues that gives away power, leading up to a SCG Sanctioned Vintage championship that pays in Ca$h.

3) CE needs to become accepted as tournament legal every where.  This will help to relieve some of the pressure on price.

4) Every tournament from your 20 man local event to the world champs needs to start giving power to the best unpowered decks.

Thoughts?

Sean

 

[hauntedechos]

I am very glad to see this thread taking place.  Congratulations Ben for striking a chord across the field.

I do not own power.  When I started to attend Toronto (401 Convienence), Vintage tournaments, they were non-proxy events.  This forced me into a narrow selection of cards that I could afford to build something viable.  I have 2 children and very real responsibilities to take care of and this, of course leads to a very restrictive ability to construct decks to play with.  So I played Fish and became quite the advocate for it.

When the store owner decided that he was "catering" to the locals who owned power, he elected to allow 5 free proxies $1 per proxy after that.  I was now able to compete with decks that I actually WANTED to play and the attendance increased in terms of new players. Had he not done this, I was on the verge of letting Vintage (and Magic in general as I have no interest in other formats) go!  The trade off was that the locals started selling thier power and quitting Vintage, so there is a trade off to whom you are catering too as the proxy rules stand...in short you're going to offend someone as it stands.

In reference to Menendian's point about attatchment through investment, I think there is something to be said about that and would be inclinced to agree to it..to an extent.  His offering of 5 proxies is falling just shy of the mark IMO.  I would think that offering proxy of cards $100-$200 and out of print, up might be a better target.  My reasoning for this is that, we are looking at making all decks available to players, yet forcing them to still make some financial commitment and thusly creating the attachment through investment.

Personaly I proxy 5 moxen, black lotus, walk and Ancestral... I play TPS.  My friend selected Ichorid so he only needed to proxy 4 Bazarrs and invest $200 into the rest of the deck, Shop players would have a tough time with needing 4 shops, 5 moxen, lotus under a 5 proxy restriction...god help the Staxx players with the additional 4 Bazarrs!  I've forced myself to hunt down any card that wasn't $100-$200 and up, if I was serious to play with it.  The result is an investment that I am very well aware of, yet I am able to compete comfortably in tournaments and have not hurt my financial obligations in life.

There is a need for a possible new thread here, that deals with "how do we structure prize support, to give players the cards that they need and cash to others"?  TO's have a tonne of responsibilities as it is, and Vintage on TMD should put focused effort into giving them possibilities, or a solution outright.

Are proxies hurting Vintage?  in some ways it seems like they are, yes and in others they continue to make Vintage accessable to people like me.  w/o them I would just stop playing, because as the format speeds up and slows down, some decks become impossible to compete with.  An example of this is the resurgence of Gush vs Flash wars..Fish was NOT an option.  Christ even Drain lovers had to take a seat.  There is an acceptance in Europe with concerns to no proxies and how to get to the power.  In U.S. I suspect that players would not be as accepting to this mindset, if they were, then the proxy thing would not have been tried in the first place yeah?

Here in Canada, (at least in GTA) Vintage seems like a dying dog, even with proxies.  I will echo what another poster said (from the UK asking for a green card in exchange for marriage), U.S. and Europe should NEVER take it's Vintage health for granted, because many of us from other countries would love to attend tournaments on a weekly or monthly level for ANY friggin' prize being doled out.

To finish, and reiterate:  we need to focus on serious efforts to solve the prize support issue, both to increase the collectors card pool and reduce the dependancy on proxies; and to offer prizes to the player who does not want power (for whatever reason), thusly staving off e-bay auctioning.  Social comparisons, with regards to motivations to win tournaments may yield some starting point.  Ponder this:  why would someone who does not own power, sell power he/she wins? then solve the prize structure that would keep this player from doing that.  Further:  A player does not own 4 duals that he/she needs and the 4 Goyfs that he/she needs.  Do you give them the Sapphire that they don't have, or do you offer a package deal; that includes all the other cards they DO need, plus the balance of worth (if any) against the worth of the sapphire?

Just my thoughts.

Haunted.

[Stormanimagus]

This was my initial reaction to Ben's article on SCG, and I've been following the discussion since.  Regardless of where you stand we should all thank Ben for stimulating this much needed debate as it indicates the community is in need of a change.

After taking some time to consider some of the more intelligent responses I am becoming more persuaded that something fundamental needs to change.  While bracketing Ben's faulty logic from his otherwise sound observation that while proxies helped to give birth to a developed Vintage metagame they are now contributing to its current decline in the U.S.

Here are some of my conclusion:

1)  If you are going to allow 10+ proxies you must accept that power will be devalued and must subsequently restructure your prize structure with cash, tiered toward the top.

2) While smaller local venues may or may not keep the 10+ proxy rule, SCG should move to reducing proxies down to 5 in a PTQ style string of venues that gives away power, leading up to a SCG Sanctioned Vintage championship that pays in Ca$h.

3) CE needs to become accepted as tournament legal every where.  This will help to relieve some of the pressure on price.

4) Every tournament from your 20 man local event to the world champs needs to start giving power to the best unpowered decks.

Thoughts?

Sean

 

I think we are all missing one fundamental problem as well here. The loyal player base of Vintage right now in the U.S consists of about 50-80 people in the North East Kingdom who've gone to Waterburys and Gen Cons for the past 10-15 years. Stephen, ELD, Troy, Jeff, Jeremiah etc. The way things are right now, that player base will never change because all the power ownership is there and all the interest and understanding of the format is there. Heck, I like Vintage, but because I don't attend events frequently I would never classify myself as skilled in the matchups.

If WOTC is serious about expanding this player base from the 50-80 guys who show up all the time then Vintage needs a shot in the arm, and this means some drastic. The problem is, I don't think WOTC *IS* serious about getting a larger player base for Vintage. All they care about is money because let's face it:

Financially speaking it is no secret that WOTC got bought out by Hasbro and that right now it is the worst performer for the gaming giant. Essentially WOTC is the armpit of Hasbro and really isn't making them any money. The money that's made by Hasbro is in EA games and in other Video gaming devices, not in Magic cards.

WOTC feels a lot of pressure to perform as a result and is trying to gear Magic as a money maker and, in doing so, has lost a sense of its roots. I saw the first sign of this when they felt it necessary to change the look of magic after Onslaught block. Remember all the card borders changing? Was there a NEED for that other than to try to cater to a younger audience?

Now WOTC doesn't want to promote Vintage anymore than it has to because it has the image of being an archaic format with a consistent fanbase in America of no more than 100-200 people. Starcity, naturally follows the economic prioritization of Wizards, and so has the same half-assed approach to paying attention to the growth of Vintage as a format.

Unfortunately, if nothing is done, and soon, Vintage, as a format, will become as rare and archaic as its mythical power 9 and will only be enjoyed by a select few who have the

a)cards
b)local tourneys and testing partners
c)playskill

to play Vintage. This truly saddens me because I think Vintage really *IS* the only format I could tolerate making time for in my hectic non-magic life as an aspiring actor. Unfortunately I'll probably end up on the outside looking in if things keep going the way they are.

Because Vintage is on such shakey ground right now as it is the ONLY way I see it making a comeback is with proxied sanctioned events or limited reprints of power 9. This would increase the bubble and get Vintage out of its shell. If TOs had a real incentive to have Vintage included in their FNM gauntlet then Vintage would certainly expand its popularity twenty-fold. And instead of offering FNM Foils (which you could still do) you could have a special Vintage cardpool rare that winners and runners up could choose from: (Trinisphere, Null Rod, Fetches, or even Duals if attendance was good enough to warrant such a prize). Magic players like to be able to play in somewhat smaller venues as well as larger venues. Trust me, I know because I tried it for a time. When I went to play at Neutral Ground (which I am happy to say I haven't done in almost a year because I got fed up with the 3rd grade maturity of many players there) from FNM the number of entries in to the tourney was usually between 10-25. That is a good number for a local tourney or FNM and Vintage needs to be in on that scene if it wants to make a comeback. This means sanctioning it with some sort of proxy/reprint/CE legal setup.

Ok. That's pretty much it. Let me re-iterate. I think many ideas put forth here are fantastic. Allowing proxies at sanctioned events but only non-extended legal ones is a great compromise and forces people to only proxy power or old cards but not to proxy the x4 Tarmogoyf they don't have if they already have power. This would certainly keep newer cards selling and, more importantly, selling to Vintage players.

Please, Stephen, Rich, Shockwave, Troy, ELD, Moxlotus, Jeff, Jeremiah, Nephitis, or any other long time TMDers get the word about this thread to higher powers so real change can be affected soon!. Perhaps if some sort of suggestion comes from seasoned Vintage pros then they'll listen.

These are my thoughts on the matter for now. Feel welcome to disagree or comment.

[Sean Ryan]

I think we are all missing one fundamental problem as well here. The loyal player base of Vintage right now in the U.S consists of about 50-80 people in the North East Kingdom who've gone to Waterburys and Gen Cons for the past 10-15 years. Stephen, ELD, Troy, Jeff, Jeremiah etc. The way things are right now, that player base will never change because all the power ownership is there and all the interest and understanding of the format is there.

Not to take anything away from the people you have mentioned, but that statement is just hyperbole.  Are the North East and Mid East Vintage Centers?  Most certainly, they are also centers of Magic in general, but there are pockets of Vintage all over the country.  I am in Seattle and while the Northwest doesn't have a major tournament like SCG there has been a steady Vintage scene here for a long time.  Northern California also has a great Vintage community with LSV contributing now and then.  Just because you are not a regular poster on the Mana Drain or happen to live near one of the urban areas where SCG hosts tournaments does not mean there you can't have a thriving community that plays the eternal formats of Vintage and Legacy.

Concerning the interests of WOTC, Magic is actually quite profitable for them, its there other attempts at failed games that have put pressure on them from Hasbero, such as Hero Clicks.  While there are those in power at WotC who care about the formats health and viability, it exists more as a historical novelty for collectors and old school players than anything else.  The emergence of Legacy on the Pro Tour and as a GP have solidified this fact even more.  I for one have no problem with this and don't see any reason to believe it will change in the foreseeable future.  However, the recommendations I posted above or some variation are desperately needed to even maintain what we already have now.   

     

[jamestosetti]

Now that I've gone through and read most of these threads I'd like to say a few more things. Ive seen comments like 5 proxy will make it better it will give you incentive to keep your first few peices of power. Thats going to open a whole new can of worms. If this format is made accessible the real men of the format will be out in force and its not going to matter who has 5 proxies the good people are still going to be taking home the power which solves nothing. That would probrably actually  raise the price of power 9 cards because the demand will grow. Here is where i see Vintage today. When brainstorm became restricted Menendian was quick to jump on the format and keep us posted. I started playing type 1 about a month before the restriction. Menendian and the dci must have been talking to Wizards and I'd say they made this an awesomely fun and interesting format. So interesting everyone is now trying to figure out to make more tournaments and get more players and what not.The hard truth is these cards must be printed again probrably every 8 to ten years because the other ones are getting so dang beat up. Whoever said FNM style vintage had a killer idea right there. If there was say 1 nce or twice monthly type 1 FNM or even Saturday night Magic for eternal, say type 1 for now with the prize being some eternal promo, just some random eternal card nothing fancy, that would be absolutly huge for this format. Even if these tournaments were allowed only at big stores in the city or something I would definitly be willing to attend every one of them.  Heres the truth of this matter. Power 9 cards have built up some signifigant value. All we can do is sit and look at what is going on and then try to think what will be going on in the future. Yes this black lotus is worth a ton. how much did I pay for this card. Why did I buy this card. Do I actually put this card in a sleeve and play with this card? If the answer to that question is no then you wont mind if the power 9 get reprinted because in essence its like you threw that card away.It boils down to some selfishness. If the power 9 are reprinted your card will one day be at the same price its at today because it is the original and old things are worth money. Your actually lucky the card is worth that much money to say the truth.  It comes down to Wizards will you repint the Power 9 and hook us eternal players.....let me say PLAYERS.....not card holders up with what we need  and at the same time what you need.

[moxpearl]

I'll just say I also suspect that proxies could have led to the drop in attendance, and I think it's worth it to try to lower the number of proxies.  Probably the strongest argument for me is that I think proxies has lead to a "sense of detachment".  Just some comments:

1.  If you do allow proxies, I would limit it to something like the Legacy Banned list.  I think proxying cards that you have to buy in any other format is a bit odd.  The people who have purchased moxes will argue they shouldn't be punished for buying the expensive cards and they should be allowed to proxy a Tezerret (or even worse, Executioner's Capsule), but I think the purpose of proxies is to mitigate an issue of low supply of expensive cards.  Also, proxying cards that you can buy in the store only hurts the TO's, and buying cards from them is the least we can do for supporting the format.   It seems most TO's barely break even on prizes, so card sales is a way they can make a well deserved profit.

2.  I don't buy the complaint of not being able to play the optimal deck.  Every other format has to live within that constraint.  I understand having to spend $3000 is different than having to spend $500, but that's why I think a 5 proxy event and prizes for un-powered decks is a reasonable suggestion.

3.  Financial prize incentives are not what is going to revive Vintage.  It's always been about the community and love of the format.   Playing for some type of vintage card (mox or drain) is worth more than making a profit from winning the event.  Any increase in attendance from great prize support is merely a short term fix on the issue, and the TO usually loses.

4.  Wizards is not going to reprint power or sanction proxy events.  There's much more for them to lose than gain by doing that.

5.  Instead, what Wizards can do is print more cards such as Chalice of the Void.  For example, if they printed something like "G - sorcery - remove all non-land cards with 0 cc from the opponent's library" or "remove all 1cc instants from the opponent's library", that would sure shake things up.  People who own the P9 could still play their super decks, but nonpowered decks would become a lot more viable.   And players without power will want to obtain power, but know that they can still play a competitive deck without power.

6.  Steve, keep up the writing, including budget decks.  Thank you.  It's crazy that some have suggested you're a negative influence on the format.  You're one of the strongest voices we have.  Other writers such as Josh Silvestri, please keep writing about Vintage too.  

[Tha Gunslinga]

Just to help folks out, here's a list of things that AREN'T going to happen:

Sanctioned proxy tournies
CE being legalized
"From the Vault: Vintage"
Power Reprints of any sort (no chance, folks)
Vintage Pro Tour
any serious increase in sanctioned Vintage
other things replacing power 9 as tournament prizes
prize adjustment based on your proxy count
"best unpowered deck" prizes in the US
unpowered decks being in any way seriously competitive


Also, here's a list of things we really DON'T need to bring up:
the card face change (seriously?)
SCG raking in money on their P9 events (wasn't everyone claiming that they were losing their shirts?)
the coming death of vintage (once again, the sky is falling)
Stephen Menendian and people's obsession with him (specifically that guy on page 2)


What I find interesting is how everyone on here has their own idea about how to solve things, but no one is posting what they're actually DOING for the format.

When's the last time you brought a new player to a tournament?  Taught someone how to play Vintage?  Gave someone a ride so they could play?  Loaned someone an entire deck.  Ran a tournament?  Emailed the DCI?  I bet half the people posting on this thread haven't even BEEN to a Vintage tournament in the last month.  Put your money where your mouth is.  If Vintage is dying (which is most explicitly IS NOT), then you people are the reason it's dead.

[jamestosetti]

I'm not about to personally attack someone with  strong feelings about what they believe but what you wrote gunslinga did seem proportionate to what has been written. I have not attended a type 1 tournament this month. Why you might ask? Because there won't be another in my area until around october.October you say. Yes 1 per year. But I play on the workstation every day until I feel I have a strong grasp of the format and its metagame changes and until I am confidant I could play against the pros and win. Loaning someone a whole deck would be very generous depending on who is out there to trust with a whole deck then there is the fact of who has 2 entire type 1 decks? I'd take a van load of people to any tournament. In fact I wish I could but I don't play type 2. Then you gave a list of things Wizards will not do. Did Wizards say they will not? If so why is this thread going on? I'd like your personal opinion on reprinting the power 9. If Wizards said would you like us to reprint the Power 9 what would you say?

[Tha Gunslinga]

If Wizards said would you like us to reprint the Power 9 what would you say?

If Jesus came up to me and said "Ben, is this a good time for Armageddon?" what would I say?

There's about the same likelihood.  This will NOT happen; there is no point debating reprinting Power 9 when it will not happen.  Wizards will not fuck with the secondary market like that; it's not worth jeopardizing the brand.  Wizards doesn't even do the "you make the card" or "choosing xth edition" anymore.

If so why is this thread going on?

Because the internet makes you stupid.

[jamestosetti]

Heres something. Ive noticed there is big money in getting people hooked on magic then beating them horribly and them quitting. They trade sell or give there cards away for next to nothing the present community grows from this. Id love an argument that says this is not true. I've seen it firsthand. I'm all about the healthy growth and fun of magic but I'm wise to what is taking place and I love to let other people know about it. It's almost comical how these articles and postings manipulate the world of magic on a weekly basis. A certain article creates waves in this community causing price changes and people selling there cards or trading them in. It's funny this article was started by a card selling company card price specialist. I just want to let people know what is going on because most people dont catch on to this stuff they just play into it. I don't beleive this article was ever intended to help the  format but to create some type of instability in card prices or to get people to react to it a certain way. You can say whatever you want to me be as harsh as you want to me because im not stupid and I dont just go with the flow.I'll just keep saying what I beleive to be true.

You refering to people saying the format is dying.......I used an analogy that used the word die but I do not beleive the format is dying I think it is growing and has great potential for growth. When they restricted brainstorm and ponder they did an awesome thing for this format. Im kind of shot out about the state of vintage tournaments not the format,the format is insanely cool. I live between St. Louis Mo and Springfeild Ill. I don't know about St. Louis but theres nothing happening for type 1 in central Illinois besides a few people who always have there decks on them. We don't have tournaments.

[Smmenen]

Just to help folks out, here's a list of things that AREN'T going to happen:

"best unpowered deck" prizes in the US

Why?   Why can't SCG award the 9th piece of power to the highest placing unpowered deck? Seems like a simple thing to do.

unpowered decks being in any way seriously competitive

Ichorid.  Nuff said. 

[Stormanimagus]

All right everyone. Let's try to keep this debate civil.

Here's a question I'd like to pose to all the power-owning anti-proxy people out there:

So you've played for a long time. So you love vintage and don't like the fact that people who didn't pay for a card that cost you a lot can play with a fake copy of that card. So, if we take away proxies in Vintage, WHO exactly are you going to play *with*?

You see? Magic, while being a collectible card game is really only about collection insofar as you can make a better deck to PLAY with. This is the beauty of magic and what makes it so much better than any other CCG every conceived of in my mind. It is a great game as well as a great sell to a collector.

So I return to my question. Without competition Vintage will die. Without new players replacing some of the old the competition will begin to peter out. This is a problem. How can WOTC exact some sort of meaniful change without doing something radical like sanctioning proxies or reprinting power? Answer me that.

[Tha Gunslinga]

unpowered decks being in any way seriously competitive

Ichorid.  Nuff said. 

While I could seriously debate Ichorid's competitiveness, I'll just point out that most of the Ichorid I see is Mana Ichorid, which runs Lotus, Recall, and Sapphire, and I'll point out that 4 Bazaars costs more than an Unlimited Lotus now.

As far as offering the Twister for the highest ranking unpowered deck, sure they *could* do it, but what's the point?  You either do proxies or you don't.  If you don't, you won't get squat for attendance.  Therefore you offer proxies.  Therefore there's no point in offering a prize for something that won't exist.

[M.Solymossy]

Proxies will continue to do well in the states.  Once big events (ones that really encourage people to drive 6+ Hours... ) start running full circle again, we'll see that vintage is alive.

And yes, Travis' events are worth driving to, I went to the first one (And top4ed day two, which made it even better) but holding an event in the winter was most-likely not a swell Idea, plus the fact that most people I know who play vintage are students, made the second trip less appealing.

[The Atog Lord]

James,

Your enthusiasm is certainly appreciated. This is a topic about which many people hold strong views. In order to get across your points better on this matter, please utilize paragraphs to separate distinct thoughts, rather than entire new posts. Should you wish to add additional content to the discussion before anyone else has posted after you, please edit your prior post rather than double posting, which is not allowed by the rules of the website.

Also, I must note that your posts are often rather difficult to read. Please be mindful of the rules of proper grammar when writing. Paragraphs may be used to divide different concepts from one another and help the reader to view your thoughts in a more organized way. Contractions require apostrophes. Please check that your submissions are spelled properly, and devoid of any serious grammatical errors.

It is not the case, James, that I am saying this to be condescending or to drag your prose through the mud. Rather, it is clear that you intend to add constructively to the dialogue, and yet your current manner of writing makes reading your contribution rather difficult. By writing in such a way that your audience is not stymied, your points will get across more clearly and you will better convey your message. Best of all, agree with you or not, your readers will be much happier having read your post.

-- Rich Shay