Progenitus Oath

[Troy_Costisick]

There may be some scenarios, too, when you need your life total to become 10.

But if you hit it second, it makes the first Oath activation for Hellkite Overlord or Akroma pointless.

maybe.  I guess it depends.  If you hit Helkite first, and knock your opponent down to twelve, then Oath this guy into play, your opponent's life becomes 10.  Then after you attack it would be 2 (given that he's not used any fetch lands, FoW, or Vamp Tutor).  The problem would be when you got in 2 attacks with Akroma or Helkite before he was Oathed out.  Then again, you can always make your own life 10 and attack for the win.

[policehq]

There may be some scenarios, too, when you need your life total to become 10.

But if you hit it second, it makes the first Oath activation for Hellkite Overlord or Akroma pointless.

maybe.  I guess it depends.  If you hit Helkite first, and knock your opponent down to twelve, then Oath this guy into play, your opponent's life becomes 10.  Then after you attack it would be 2 (given that he's not used any fetch lands, FoW, or Vamp Tutor).  The problem would be when you got in 2 attacks with Akroma or Helkite before he was Oathed out.  Then again, you can always make your own life 10 and attack for the win.

For the bolded text to be relevant, they would have to play Vampiric Tutor or activate fetch lands after Magister Sphinx has come into play. All fetch land activations, Vampiric Tutor, Grim Tutor, etcetera are "free" until he comes into play, IF he comes into play after Hellkite Overlord or Akroma.

One scenario would be that you Oath Hellkite Overlord, attack for 8, and the opponent is at 12. Then you Oath Magister Sphinx, and in response your opponent cracks a fetch land and plays Vampiric Tutor. They're still at 10 anyway.

I don't think that Long Term Plans is worth the deck space since its only use would be to reduce the chances of using Oath of Druids to play Magister Sphinx after Hellkite Overlord, at three mana. The other possible use, to tutor for Oath of Druids, is very slow for Vintage, unfortunately.

[Tha Gunslinga]

There may be some scenarios, too, when you need your life total to become 10.

But if you hit it second, it makes the first Oath activation for Hellkite Overlord or Akroma pointless.

long term plans?

Playing bad cards to make other bad cards less bad is never good.

[nineisnoone]

There may be some scenarios, too, when you need your life total to become 10.

But if you hit it second, it makes the first Oath activation for Hellkite Overlord or Akroma pointless.

Yeah, I will be likely testing it first as a straight 4 of with no other Oath creatures.  It is only 1 turn slower than Akroma/Hellkite, so it's not that much of a drawback.  Plus since you will only need the last Sphinx trigger on your opponent, you can use the first 2 to keep yourself at 10 life which can be useful if they are beating you down.

[honestabe]

Eh, I can see him being playable with another creature, but i don't like the idea of only him....

[the_lord_shaper]

Hidetsugu's Second Rite?

[honestabe]

Hidetsugu's Second Rite?

WOW

Good call, there man


What a combo

[sWoRdFiSh`]

Hidetsugu's Second Rite?

I would really think a million times before I run such a marginal card to make another bad card playable.

To reiterate:

Playing bad cards to make other bad cards less bad is never good.

[chrissss]

There may be some scenarios, too, when you need your life total to become 10.

But if you hit it second, it makes the first Oath activation for Hellkite Overlord or Akroma pointless.

.  It is only 1 turn slower than Akroma/Hellkite, so it's not that much of a drawback. 

1 turn in Vintage isn't a drawback? Half the time when I play oath I lose the game because my opponent is on 2 life. Now with hellkite that happens less, but vs ichorid for example, they don't hurt themselves which means 18 damage wasn't enough. plus if your opponent plays with any cards which ask life to draw cards, this creature can actually gain him life.

[Nehptis]

I mean, seriously, it's not like Oath has that much trouble right now as far as creature quality goes.  Oath has problems, yes, but they're more due to a lack of a good draw engine and lack of Brainstorm (and the fact that there are better decks out there) than lack of good Oath targets.

Please re-read the above.

None of these creatures that people are suggesting from Conflux solve Oath's issues nor are they improvements over Oath's current creature package.  The bar is Hellkite Oath for an Aggro build and the Old Tyrant Oath for a non-Aggro build.

If your suggestions can't win faster than Hellkite Oath or can't "lock out" your opponent as fast and as much as the old Tyrant Oath did, then keep trying.

[nineisnoone]

1 turn in Vintage isn't a drawback? Half the time when I play oath I lose the game because my opponent is on 2 life. Now with hellkite that happens less, but vs ichorid for example, they don't hurt themselves which means 18 damage wasn't enough. plus if your opponent plays with any cards which ask life to draw cards, this creature can actually gain him life.

Why would you have 18 damage?  Akroma + Hellkite should always do over at least 22.  Also, against Ichorid decks that run Ancestor's Chosen (which is a solid choice) Sphinx can undo the massive life gain which is something that Akroma/Hellkite can't do.

And do the other half of losses involving them beating you to death with creatures and Oath tokens?  Personally, I've found that being simply out raced by aggro decks to be a notable problem.  An early unanswered Oath pretty much wins regardless of what you run, but a mid game-reset to 10 endurance can be useful more useful if they put you low on life.

Basically, I think of Sphinx as being the mid-way point between Archangel and Hellkite.  It's faster than Archangel, but not as fast as Hellkite.  But it gives you a defense against aggro, but possibly not as much as Archangel.

And obviously you never give them endurance if they are below ten endurance.  Mostly this isn't much of a problem.  With Dark Confidant in an aggro deck, I've found they won't really be able to swing 10 endurance in a single attack unless they get multiple Tarmogoyf's, which is usually a win anyways.  Unless if they are really going to die soon due to a Mana Crypt, I wouldn't really count on them dying to it before you Oath does the trick.  The most difficult situation would be a Necro in a TPS deck (since if they Bargain you probably lose regardless).  Hellkite would have been a much better card in this case, but they probably won't walk into it anyways.

[honestabe]

Hidetsugu's Second Rite?

I would really think a million times before I run such a marginal card to make another bad card playable.

To reiterate:

Playing bad cards to make other bad cards less bad is never good.

Yeah, second rite costs too much

If it was for 3 mana, maybe a different story

[Stormanimagus]

I'm very surprised at how little excitement there is over progenitus. It is a totally new type of animal for oath in that it is IMPOSSIBLE to kill except through untargeted bounce. And even then you could Thirst it away. Here is a list of cards off the top of my head that used to give oath headaches that progenitus laughs at:

Swords to plowshares
Diabolic edict
Chain of vapor (any targeted bounce)
Any mass removal (you just oath again)

I'm sure there are more but those are the ones that got me interested in him in the first place.

When you combine him with magister sphinx you should have a 2 turn kill 50% of the time and a 3 turn kill 50% of the time. Essentially you're as fast as the hellkite version half the time but with far more inevitability and security. Why this would make him sub-par is beyond me. With 4 FoW, 4 Chalice, 4 Duress, and 3 Negate backing you up I don't see a problem in lasting that extra turn needs ftw.

[VorpalBunnyDuby]

If you have those cards backing you up then why wait the extra turn?

[Stormanimagus]

If you have those cards backing you up then why wait the extra turn?

Because Akroma can be Chained, STPed, Echoing Truthed and all sorts of other shenanigans and so can Hellkite. If they have one of those cards you are in a tough spot. With Progenitus they just have to try to beat you faster than the extra turn. It's easier to use your FoW or Duress to buy yourself the turn you need than use it to stop a STP and then try to win before they beat you.

And the fact remains that 50% of the time the Progenitus kill with Magister Sphinx will be exactly as fast as the Hellkite/Akroma Kill.

[Tha Gunslinga]

When I go to attack Oath, I bust out Blood Moon, Engineered Explosives, and Ray of Revelation.  I don't attack their creatures, I attack the Oath.

[LordHomerCat]

I don't attack their creatures, I attack the Oath.

100% Agreed.

[zeus-online]

Why is progenitus supposedly immune to edict anyway? It dosn't target him...You do get to shuffle him in, but that would make Edict = Time walk...Time walk is good. Have i missed something?

/Zeus

[chrissss]

Why is progenitus supposedly immune to edict anyway? It dosn't target him...You do get to shuffle him in, but that would make Edict = Time walk...Time walk is good. Have i missed something?

/Zeus

it isn`t, but can you name one creature which is ? Creatures used in oat that is

[zeus-online]

progenitus laughs at:

Swords to plowshares
Diabolic edict
Chain of vapor (any targeted bounce)
Any mass removal (you just oath again)

That's what i was referring to.

[wjcuttler]

I must have missed this thread...
I had a blast playing this Oath variant recently in a 30 player Tournament.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37345.0

The Sphinx is not optimal me thinks. Hellkite Ovelord and Progenitus is probably the best combination of Oath targets. I am considering that Magister Sphinx can be Stifled and Red Blasted. Although, he can also be pitched to Thirst for Knowledge which was handy in many games.

[Troy_Costisick]

I must have missed this thread...
Although, he can also be pitched to Thirst for Knowledge which was handy in many games.

And to FoW, which is nice if he somehow ends up in your hand. 

Peace,

-Troy

[honestabe]

Here's my theory.

Better safe than sorry.


When playing vintage, anything can happen.  I'd MUCH rather take the 50% chance of extending the game 1 turn, and feel safer.  Believe me, the worst feeling ever is when you get to cast Oath, just to have your game winner STP'd.  Why not run this guy?

[Tha Gunslinga]

Because you'll lose games when you can't clock your opponent fast enough, or you'll get swarmed by guys because you can't attack AND block at the same time.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I must have missed this thread...
Although, he can also be pitched to Thirst for Knowledge which was handy in many games.

And to FoW, which is nice if he somehow ends up in your hand. 

Peace,

-Troy

one progenitus kills at the same speed as 2, so you you'll only want to run one (extract is a bad card). I'd probably not want to pitch it to fow because that will make oath a bad card, especialy with how easy it is to get back in your library.

[Troy_Costisick]

I must have missed this thread...
Although, he can also be pitched to Thirst for Knowledge which was handy in many games.

And to FoW, which is nice if he somehow ends up in your hand. 

Peace,

-Troy

one progenitus kills at the same speed as 2, so you you'll only want to run one (extract is a bad card). I'd probably not want to pitch it to fow because that will make oath a bad card, especialy with how easy it is to get back in your library.

If you examine the context of my post, you will see that I was refering to Magister Sphinx not Progenitus.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

Magister Sphinx is probably the worst consideration of an oath target i've seen for a long time. Ensuring you get him out first is a coinflip at best unless your running really suboptimal cards to ensure it happens with any consistency. Its much slower than akroma/overlord, and it gets killed be more things.
I've oathed out artifact creatures befor, and its really terrible when people sb in cards to deal with challicde of the void.
blowing up ur dude is actually very relivant with out brainstorm as a 4 of

[policehq]

Magister Sphinx is probably the worst consideration of an oath target i've seen for a long time. Ensuring you get him out first is a coinflip at best unless your running really suboptimal cards to ensure it happens with any consistency. Its much slower than akroma/overlord, and it gets killed be more things.
I've oathed out artifact creatures befor, and its really terrible when people sb in cards to deal with challicde of the void.
blowing up ur dude is actually very relivant with out brainstorm as a 4 of

The reason they were discussing Sphinx is probably that a deck with it and Progenitus just one a tournament. Given, the player recommended afterward that Hellkite Overlord be used instead, but still he performed very well with these two Oath targets. He never had to attack, so it didn't matter if he was destroyed. Lim-Dul's Vault helped to ensure that Progenitus would come first.

[Stormanimagus]

I must have missed this thread...
I had a blast playing this Oath variant recently in a 30 player Tournament.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37345.0

The Sphinx is not optimal me thinks. Hellkite Ovelord and Progenitus is probably the best combination of Oath targets. I am considering that Magister Sphinx can be Stifled and Red Blasted. Although, he can also be pitched to Thirst for Knowledge which was handy in many games.

That actually seems like a really good idea. This way you'll have minimum of 18 damage on the board the turn after you oath and probably 20 if you have Forbidden available and they've fetched or FoW or something. I forgot that you can use Hellkite's Firebreathing ability if you have Orchard out. Heck, the deck could probably even support Volcanic Island to facilitate that. I guess I'll be going Hellkite in my new builds then.

I do, however, think that Hellkite + Progenitus >>> Hellkite + Akroma. Progenitus can't really be dealt with and will win the game for you through STP or other removal where Hellkite will not.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I guess I don't see how 18, maybe 20 is better than garanteed 20 minimum, no assembly required. Also the guy apparently said it was sub optimal