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Author Topic: Noble Fish: GUW variants here!  (Read 108044 times)
Stormanimagus
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« on: January 26, 2009, 07:19:43 pm »

This thread needs to be updated! Yikes it has been too long. I'm going to provide the community with my most up-to-date Noble Fish list with a match-up analysis and card choice explanations to follow soon. Here we go:

Noble Fish 2K12
(Stone-Cold Edition)


Land (18):
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (7):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
3 Stony Silence

Creatures (17):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Trygon Predator
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Instants (16):
4 Force Of Will
3 Daze
3 Steel Sabotage
3 Mental Misstep
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (2):
1 Time Walk
1 Green Sun’s Zenith


Sideboard
4 Ravenous Trap
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Trygon Predator
3 Flusterstorm
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
1 Swords To Plowshares







BELOW  HERE  IS  PRE-2011  CONTENT  ABOUT  NOBLE  FISH


Hey Vintage Community. So I'm going to try to update this first post a bit to make it more reflective of the current list while still discussing the evolution of this deck I love so much. I want to preface this by saying that this deck originally came into my mind as a spin-off an earlier deck I stole/innovated on called "Pony Express" and that deck was a response to the masses of Tyrant Oath and Gush-Bond Gro decks that existed before the restriction of Brainstorm, Ponder, Merchant Scroll, Flash, and Gush. That deck looked a little something like this:

"Pony Express"
Land (18):
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
3 Tundra
2 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
2 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (5):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald

Creatures (23):
4 Meddling Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Ronom Unicorn
4 Glowrider
4 Aven Mindcensor
3 Gaddock Teeg

Instants (9):
4 Swords To Plowshares
4 Stifle
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

Artifacts (4):
4 Skullclamp

SB
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
3 Oxidize
3 Kami Of Ancient Law
2 Runed Halo
3 Wheel Of Sun And Moon


When one examines this deck is clear that it was appropriate for the time I considered playing it. It ran plenty of answers for Oath between the MD and SB. Gaddock Teeg was an ideal answer to Gush Decks overall and 8 Sphere effects that do nothing to your creatures between MD and SB was another huge boon to the deck. What frustrated me about this deck and ultimately why I never brought it to a tournament was a lack of draw engine. I could have run 4 Brainstorm at the time, and that might, indeed, have fitted better into the deck than the list I have here, but I was determined to have a real "draw engine" and Skullclamp seemed like the best choice as Null Rod was not nearly as big at the time. Still, Skullclamp was underwhelming for me and it was often too slow to be effective. Also, I didn't WANT to nuke my creatures so Skullclamp really started to seem like a bad idea. The more I look at this list, the more I realize that Skullclamp is a really poor choice, but, at the time, it seemed like the only one I could think of. Then along came Shards of Alara and Fish's god-send:

Noble Hierarch

This little Birds Of Paradise on steroids offered me a way to break a card I had wanted to break for some time in Vintage: Cold-Eyed Selkie. I had tried to build little UG beats decks with Selkie + Rancor ever since its printing, but the decks ran a lot of dead cards that didn't work by themselves without the combo out. Now I saw my opportunity. Cold-Eyed Selkie + Noble Hierarch meant +2 Cards against any deck running Islands. When Noble was printed just over a year ago it took me a little while to see this card's potential with my beloved Selkie, but when I chatted a bit more about it with Jeff Carpenter of team RnD I quickly realized that this was the synergy Fish had been looking for for a long time. Jeff told me of his old "Curiosity + Flying Men" lists of long ago and how they always fell prey to crazy 2-for-1's as well as a lack of raw attack power. Noble Hierarch seems to solve both these problems at once. In a simple 2 card combo you are getting:

1. more than +1 Card Advantage in one turn of keeping the combo online
2. more than +1 Damage in 1 turn of Keeping the combo online
3. +1 Mana of any relevant color for turns where the combo is or isn't online.

Noble Hierarch allows a beat-down deck to run a card advantage engine without wasting slots on sub-optimal cards like Brainstorm or Ponder. It allows the deck to streamline its game plan and never waste a turn on idle cantrips. What it really allowed, was a deck that could support a robust mana-denial package because now it had other roles filled by only a couple 4-ofs that were pulling double-duty. I must credit Jeff (Harlequin for those of you who know him as such on the Drain) for waking me up to the usefulness of Daze in the deck. When I placed 6th at the TMD open with the deck last March I credit most of my wins to the power of this effective free counterspell. The synergies of Daze with Noble Hierarch and the Mana-Denial plan as a whole were just astounding. It seems that most every deck in Vintage (save Ichorid) has problems with 5 Waste/Strip + 4 Null Rod + 4 Stifle + 4 Daze. Who knew that mana-denial was so universally effective right *sarcasm intended* Wink?  Heck, in that earlier iteration of the deck I even ran 3 Cursecatcher.

When Wizards printed Qasali Pride-mage in the next expansion of Shards Block I had to ask myself: Are they just trying to make this deck that much better? It was another god-send to the deck as it gave it x4 more ways to enable Selkie's exalted synergy while being a walking Seal Of Primordium to boot. This where I will leave you with what I consider to be the most updated, and probably close to best, version of the deck. If you are just joining the discussion on this deck I highly recommend that you read all of this post and the most recent page or so. There is important information about how the deck plays out here + there. I also encourage you to ask Harlequin questions on the deck as he is a pretty smart Vintage Adept I hear. So, anyway, without further ado. I give you:




Noble Fish    a.k.a      Selkie-Strike

Land (17):
4 Misty Rainforest                  {U}/ {G} Fetch Land
1 Flooded Strand                   {U}/ {W} Fetch Land
3 Tropical Island                    {U}/ {G}  Dual  Land
2 Tundra                              {U}/ {W} Dual  Land
1 Island                                  {U}
1 Forest                                  {G}
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus                           {0}
1 Mox Emerald                         {0}
1 Mox Sapphire                        {0}
1 Mox Pearl                              {0}
4 Null Rod                                {2}

Creatures (18):
4 Noble Hierarch                      {G}
4 Meddling Mage                   {U} {W}
4 Qasali Pridemage                {G} {W}
3 Tarmogoyf                          {1} {G}
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie           {1}[ {G}/ {U}][{G}/ {U}]

Instants (15):
4 Force Of Will                      {3} {U} {U}
3 Daze                                   {1} {U}
3 Spell Pierce                             {U}
4 Stifle                                      {U}
1 Ancestral Recall                      {U}

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk                          {1} {U}

Side Board
3 Wheel Of Sun And Moon  [ {G}/ {W}][ {G}/ {W}]
2 Ravenous Trap                  {2} {B} {B}
3 Pithing Needle                       {1}
3 Trygon Predator                 {1} {G} {U}
4 Swords To Plowshares            {W}

I think this SB still might need some work, but I'm trying to address as many match-ups as possible with it. I'm also never going to underestimate Dredge again after my loss to it in the top 8 of the TMD open so I consider the 7 SB slots here the bare minimum to devote to it and I'd almost consider upping the hate to 8 total. I'd say that STP can probably come in in that match-up as well as it can be important to remove Ichorids and such.

If you have any questions or comments on this list you can post them in this thread or PM me. I also have AIM and my SN is maestrosmith55.

Hope you enjoy this deck as much as I have.



All Right! So I have some statistical analysis for y'all! It's 2010 and it's been quite the inaugural year for Noble Fish/Selkie-Strike. Here's some interesting data about the deck lists that have Top 8ed over the past year. Enjoy!



NOTE: Here's the original post to give you all perspective of where this deck has been in its evolution.


Hey guys. I couldn't find a recent forum discussing possible GUW fish variants so I figured I'd give it a stab. My interest in making a good GUW fish deck has really come from a new card spoiled from Conflux:

Noble Hierarch     {G}

Creature-Human Druid

Exalted
 {Tap}Add  {G}, {W} or  {U} to your mana pool.

This guys seems like he could be great with Cold-Eyed Selkie as you can draw 2 cards and swing for 2 with just one Hierarch out and then draw 3 cards and swing for 3 with 2 Hierarch out. Hierarch can also wield a Jitte and that is a nice perk in case you are in a bind and only have Hierarch on the table. Exalted may seem like an inconsequential ability, but slapped on top of the birds of paradise ability of Hierarch Exalted makes him playable I think.


I could be totally off on this guys, but I always like trying to innovate on existing strategies with some new tech so here it is. I give you:

Selkie-Strike

Land (18):
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library Of Alexandria

Artifacts (12):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Chalice of The Void
3 Umezawa’s Jitte

Creatures (20):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Cursecatcher
4 Meddling Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Instants (9):
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force Of Will
4 Stifle

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

SB
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
3 Cephalid Constable
4 Wheel Of Sun And Moon
4 Swords To Plowshares

It seems like this deck will have serious problems with Oath. STP and Constable out of the SB are supposed to help a bit, but I'm still not sure that's enough.

Thoughts?Comments?

Should The Selkie be Constable in the MD
?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 03:18:38 am by Stormanimagus » Logged

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theLastGnu
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« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2009, 12:47:39 am »

Neat card, I like the deck, but I think 4 null rod is just all around better than 3 jitte + 1 petal, even with selkies or constables in play. Especially considering you're running 5 waste effects and cursecatchers. It would also give you a tempo boost, because your acceleration is in the Hierarch more than it is in moxen.

Also, I think the thorns in the side would probably better as Canonists.
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Guli
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« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2009, 04:55:44 am »

How often will you get the following play order:

Turn 1:

a.Land (Here is the first problem. Will you play with basic forest or will you start with tropical?)
b.Tap land for green
c.Cast Noble Hierarch
d. Pass the turn


Turn 2: assuming your land didn't get stripped/wasted (with tropical this is not unreal)

a. Tap 3 mana sources
b. Cast Cold-Eyed Selkie

That is 2 turns that you are investing in order to get in your draw engine. Right there you can only rely on Force of will and that is if you have a blue card and if it doesn't get duressed.

Now that concern is out of the way, you don't have to play that sequence it is not necessary to be able to win games. It is just in there. But that does also mean that you should not use it so explicitly to back up your innovative idea of a new card.

I think the package of Curse/Wasteland/Null Rod/Stifle belongs in blue based fish that is opting for mana denial. Use the rod especially with Noble!

There are strong cards in this deck, it should be solid even without Noble. What will Noble add to this deck? Are there better choices for that slot? I am not sure about that and I am interested on how this topic will turn out. Waiting for the feedbacks.

Guli

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BruiZar
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« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2009, 07:21:01 am »

In a fish mirror, the first person with a beatstick and a hierarch is going to survive the other player's beatsticks. I think that Hierarch does have an important role to play in either legacy or vintage. This card seems like a very strong play in Landstill. Hierarch with Selkie allows you to draw 2 cards every turn. If you have a Standstill down, you're forcing your opponent to crack it. If you don't have a Selkie you can use Factories to beat down. Factories have synergie with Hierarch because they can pump assembly workers so you can send out a 4/4 or bigger beast at your opponent's throat, outlasting most of vintage's creatures except for those cheated by tinker/oath or trikes.
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Stormanimagus
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« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2009, 11:35:19 am »

In a fish mirror, the first person with a beatstick and a hierarch is going to survive the other player's beatsticks. I think that Hierarch does have an important role to play in either legacy or vintage. This card seems like a very strong play in Landstill. Hierarch with Selkie allows you to draw 2 cards every turn. If you have a Standstill down, you're forcing your opponent to crack it. If you don't have a Selkie you can use Factories to beat down. Factories have synergie with Hierarch because they can pump assembly workers so you can send out a 4/4 or bigger beast at your opponent's throat, outlasting most of vintage's creatures except for those cheated by tinker/oath or trikes.

I'm not sure Standstill would work in this deck though as you do have a pro-active strategy of playing threats. However, I do agree that Null Rod might be a good idea and that the Jitte might be a more "Win More" card. I think perhaps that I'll put the Jitte as a 2-3 of in the SB though as a good answer to opposing Fish, Platz and other randomness. Aight, here's my new list with some of all your critiques taken in to account.

Selkie-Strike

Land (18):
3 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
1 Tundra
1 Forest
2 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (12):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Chalice of The Void
4 Null Rod

Creatures (20):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Cursecatcher
4 Meddling Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Instants (9):
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force Of Will
4 Stifle

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

SB
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
3 Cephalid Constable
4 Wheel Of Sun And Moon
4 Swords To Plowshares

One Thing I'm really not sure on is including White just to splash Meddling Mage. Granted I do get STP out of the SB, but I really feel there are other cards that can do the job I need those to do. I'm gonna work on a GU list and see what it turns out being because I do think it could be far more consistent and streamlined and accomplish the things I need it to accomplish.


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« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2009, 11:51:54 am »

Quote
One Thing I'm really not sure on is including White just to splash Meddling Mage. Granted I do get STP out of the SB, but I really feel there are other cards that can do the job I need those to do. I'm gonna work on a GU list and see what it turns out being because I do think it could be far more consistent and streamlined and accomplish the things I need it to accomplish.
Keep an eye on the blue count in order to support Force of Will.
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« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2009, 12:01:04 pm »

Quote
One Thing I'm really not sure on is including White just to splash Meddling Mage. Granted I do get STP out of the SB, but I really feel there are other cards that can do the job I need those to do. I'm gonna work on a GU list and see what it turns out being because I do think it could be far more consistent and streamlined and accomplish the things I need it to accomplish.
Keep an eye on the blue count in order to support Force of Will.

Yeah, While Meddling Mage IS a bomb of a card I'm not sure I'd include him in a build that is also running FoW and Green fatties. To me, a deck like THAT would want to be more proactive and run a bunch of creatures that could serve as lock pieces. That deck would also want to run Gaddock Teeg I think and obviously he doesn't agree with FoW.

No, I think this deck could take a different direction of Mana-Denial + Protection of Key threats like Selkie or Tarmogoyf. I think I can now see an obvious way in which the deck could translate to UG. Here's my list.

Swamp Thing

Land (19):
4 Flooded Strand
1 Windswept Heath
4 Tropical Island
1 Forest
4 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (11):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Chalice of The Void
4 Null Rod

Creatures (16):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Cursecatcher
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Instants (13):
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force Of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

SB
3 Cephalid Constable
4 Wheel Of Sun And Moon
2 Umezawa’s Jitte
3 Trygon Predator
3 Echoing Truth

Once you've wasted some lands or stifled some fetches then Daze should pretty much always be a hard counter. Daze is a card that I can't believe I forgot about. It is great at protecting Selkies and Tarmogoyfs from a premature departure and can counter opposing Rituals or random draw spells even.

So, thoughts on this new build? I'm especially curious to see what people think of the SB. Trygon predator is a 3-drop and thus might not be efficient enough to combat Oath, but surely it is fast enough for Stax no?

Oath seems like it is the major problem for this deck. Should I just accept that that will be a poor percentage matchup?
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« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2009, 12:35:29 pm »

Quote
Oath seems like it is the major problem for this deck. Should I just accept that that will be a poor percentage matchup?


If you're willing to run Cephalid Constable, why not run Wipe Away instead?  Matched with your ET's, you should be able to bounce Akroma, Helkite, or Tyrant easily.  If not that card, what about Seal of Primordium, Krosan Grip, or Deglamer?

Peace,

-Troy
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« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2009, 12:42:02 pm »

Quote
Oath seems like it is the major problem for this deck. Should I just accept that that will be a poor percentage matchup?


If you're willing to run Cephalid Constable, why not run Wipe Away instead?  Matched with your ET's, you should be able to bounce Akroma, Helkite, or Tyrant easily.  If not that card, what about Seal of Primordium, Krosan Grip, or Deglamer?

Peace,

-Troy

I suppose Seal would be the more logical choice over Constable. Seal would be my choice of the cards you chose as it can be consistently played in time to actually stop them from triggering Oath. Krosan Grip, while more resistant to countermagic might not hit the board in time. I'm relatively confident that I can get a Seal to resolve as I have 4 FoW and 4 Daze as well as 4 Cursecatcher. Good Idea, I think it'll def. be at least SB. The thing that is so painful about losing Constable though is that he is essentially a hard lock when Exalted. Bouncing 2 Perms a turn against the right deck can be game over. I guess I might have to accept that he is a "Win More" class of card and perhaps still isn't Vintage Playable (even with Exalted Pumping him).
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« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2009, 12:49:36 pm »

Just wondering, but if your gonna use Cold-Eyed Selkie as your main draw, why even run blue?  The 1-3 cards u get (assuming jitte) isn't going to guarantee the 4 FoW at all.  If I were you I would go more of a R/G route and skip blue altogether.  Why?  Because it gives you a more aggressive approach, gives you ways to handle smaller critter matches such as fish, gobos, and ichorid even with red.  Also gives you options to other better green beats.  Something along the lines of:

4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
4 Rancor (better than jitte for an agrro deck IMO)
-tarmogoyf
-Mogg Fanatic
-Fire/Ice
-Lightning Bolt
-Main Deck Null Rod
-More artifact hate (naturalize, shatter, mox monkey, goblin vandals etc etc)
-Blood Moon/Bloodmoon dude
-River Boa
-Untargetable Troll
- REB/Pyroblast
Also making it 2 colors instead of 3 gives you easier access to the 5 strips.  Imagine this new opening hand:

1) land mana elf
2) Cold-Eyed Selkie
3) rancor on Cold-Eyed Selkie. swing, draw 3, waste land a target, drop null rod.

This puts quite a clock on the opponent, not even counting other creatures/rancors/burn/blood moon effects.

Also 90% of Vintage players use Islands in some form, making Boa and Cold-Eyed Selkie amazing good.

Just an idea to throw out there.  Null Rod and Blood Moon guy will stop ALOT more than any meddling mage or an StP in the SB.  What to do about oath? Probably LOSE.  Sometimes you just can't win them all.
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« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2009, 01:19:09 pm »

I'm strongly feeling *main* Thorn of Amethysts and Constables.  In a meta this fast, I'd say 'disruption first' is a good policy. 

Edit: And remember that you can run Ninja over Selkie.  Selkie is really just gravy.  You have a bunch of 1 CC creatures, and Hierarch will help Ninja connect.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 01:29:09 pm by AmbivalentDuck » Logged

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Stormanimagus
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« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2009, 01:36:37 pm »

Just wondering, but if your gonna use Cold-Eyed Selkie as your main draw, why even run blue?  The 1-3 cards u get (assuming jitte) isn't going to guarantee the 4 FoW at all.  If I were you I would go more of a R/G route and skip blue altogether.  Why?  Because it gives you a more aggressive approach, gives you ways to handle smaller critter matches such as fish, gobos, and ichorid even with red.  Also gives you options to other better green beats.  Something along the lines of:

4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
4 Rancor (better than jitte for an agrro deck IMO)
-tarmogoyf
-Mogg Fanatic
-Fire/Ice
-Lightning Bolt
-Main Deck Null Rod
-More artifact hate (naturalize, shatter, mox monkey, goblin vandals etc etc)
-Blood Moon/Bloodmoon dude
-River Boa
-Untargetable Troll
- REB/Pyroblast
Also making it 2 colors instead of 3 gives you easier access to the 5 strips.  Imagine this new opening hand:

1) land mana elf
2) Cold-Eyed Selkie
3) rancor on Cold-Eyed Selkie. swing, draw 3, waste land a target, drop null rod.

This puts quite a clock on the opponent, not even counting other creatures/rancors/burn/blood moon effects.

Also 90% of Vintage players use Islands in some form, making Boa and Cold-Eyed Selkie amazing good.

Just an idea to throw out there.  Null Rod and Blood Moon guy will stop ALOT more than any meddling mage or an StP in the SB.  What to do about oath? Probably LOSE.  Sometimes you just can't win them all.

I don't know when you last played Vintage, but there are some seriously sub-par options you proposed.

1. Mana Elves. Any creature that JUST produces mana is gonna be sub-optimal. Noble Hierarch's Exalted Ability is key.

2. Rancor. Jitte is much better as you can use it as removal as well and it pumps for 4 after the first swing. I'd only use rancor in a specific mono-green beats deck that was trying to win as quickly as possible.

3. Boa is just a 2/1 Unblockable. Big Whoop. Vintage is not Extended. That's just not gonna cut it. Creatures that don't change tempo in a significant way have no place in Vintage decks (create CA or put such a fast clock on the opponent that their whole game plan has to revolve around getting rid of them i.e Tarmogoyf). 2 Damage a turn doesn't mean a whole lot to any deck anymore. Not even Control because most lists run the combo Finish with Time Vault.

Not all decks need the HUGE draw package to guarantee FOW. Remember, I also run 4x Daze now so if I'm not FoWing then perhaps I'm dazing. It's not like FoW has been on the downswing with the restriction of BS and Gush. It's such a good card on it's own and doesn't need a deck specifically designed to abuse it to be effective. It is "the glue" of Vintage and I don't buy your argument that I don't have enough ways to draw in to it.

And I DO think my Blue count is high enough to warrant it. Right now I run 22 Blue cards. Seems good enough to me.

And I don't run Blue because of Selkie. I run it for FoW, Stifle, and Cursecatcher.

I'm not saying a G/R list COULDN'T work, but I'd need to restructure the entire purpose of the deck and transform the gameplan. I'm not sure I'd come up with anything more effective than Menendian's RG beats list. Or, it might be like that list but with Selkies thrown in somehow.

I think that using the fact that Selkie is also blue and can be pitched to FoW could be useful. It's a draw engine that can also be tossed when you get it in multiples when needed.

Anyway, I'll consider a RG list, but then there's also GW or GB that could also work. Hmmmmm. . .

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AmbivalentDuck
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« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2009, 01:49:48 pm »

Actually, Root Maze + Back to Basics is a very hard lock against a wide swath of the format...  Especially if you throw in Thorns.

Lands
    1 Strip Mine
    8 Forest
    8 Island

Creatures
    3 Cephalid Constable
    4 Cursecatcher
    4 Tarmogoyf
    3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
    4 Noble Hierarch

Spells
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Sapphire
    4 Thorn of Amethyst
    1 Time Walk
    1 Ancestral Recall
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Root Maze
    4 Back to Basics
    4 Force of Will

 Sideboard
SB: 3 Trygon Predator
SB: 4 Seal of Primordium
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 2 AEther Spellbomb
SB: 2 Cold-Eyed Selkie

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Trygon Predator
SB: 4  Seal of Primordium
SB: 4  Leyline of the Void
SB: 2  AEther Spellbomb
SB: 2  Cold-Eyed Selkie
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« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2009, 02:02:05 pm »

I Think that the point of the selkie is that with hierarch, you draw multiple cards and it is practically unblockable. Ninja forces you to bounce a guy (cursecatcher, constable, tarmogoyf?), will only draw 1 card, and gets significantly worse the turn after it comes into play. I do really like the root maze, though.

Is the thorn of amethyst worth it? I might like daze better, its very good with the hierarch, and comes online a turn earlier.
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« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2009, 02:23:33 pm »

I Think that the point of the selkie is that with hierarch, you draw multiple cards and it is practically unblockable. Ninja forces you to bounce a guy (cursecatcher, constable, tarmogoyf?), will only draw 1 card, and gets significantly worse the turn after it comes into play. I do really like the root maze, though.

Is the thorn of amethyst worth it? I might like daze better, its very good with the hierarch, and comes online a turn earlier.

Yeah, Root Maze is pretty awesome, but would definitely force you away from Fetches. I don't see how that'd be a problem though with a 2-color deck. Ninja = pretty terrible IMO, and really isn't up to par in Vintage unless you design a deck to specifically abuse its Ninjitsu ability. I'm in total agreement with you here.

Daze >> Thorn in this deck because it's quicker and forces your opponent to fear playing in to it once they've seen the first one. It protects Selkie and Goyf better than Thorn. Thorn is more anti-combo oriented, but I don't see that this deck should have a ton of combo issues with 4 FoW, 4 Stifle, 4 Null, 4 Chalice, 4 Cursecatcher and 4 Daze. I think Combo should actually be a very good matchup.

Question. Can you sac Catcher sans a legal target in order to remove Bridges?
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« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2009, 02:35:53 pm »

Now, that I think of it, I'd only use Root Maze in a deck where the mana-denial plan was not already really good. I mean, Stifle + Waste is awesome, and Stifle + Waste + Null Rod is just unfair. I think Root Maze might be kinda Overkill here.

Where I could see Root Maze being solid is in a non GU build that can't abuse Stifle, Cursecatcher, and Daze. Perhaps GB?

Here's yet another list for ya.

Swamp Thing

Land (18):
4 Bayou
5 Swamp
4 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (10):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
4 Chalice of The Void
3 Umezawa’s Jitte

Creatures (16):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Enchantments (8):
4 Seal Of Primordium
4 Root Maze

Sorceries (8):
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy

SB
4 Wheel Of Sun And Moon
4 Extirpate
4 Null Rod
???


Here Root Maze shines because the deck needs the added mana denial. I elected to not run Null Rod MD because the 8 discard spells should be able to help enough vs. Combo and Tezz. After SB you can Side out Jitte + a seal for them, but they just don't seem necessary MD. Thoughts on this avenue?
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« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2009, 05:47:00 pm »

Why not run Thoughtseize over Cabal Therapy? The Flashback is neat, but I'd rather get what I was looking for on the first try. Also, you're only really running 12 creatures, since you'll rarely cast the Elvish Spirit Guides. Also, Null Rod has many uses other than versus Tez and Combo. And considering how good Tez decks are, you should probably be running the rod regardless.
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AmbivalentDuck
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« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2009, 06:09:01 pm »

The entire point of Root Maze/Thorn/Back to Basics is that they make Constable's bounce ability brutal *and* combo well together without the need for Constable.
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« Reply #18 on: January 27, 2009, 11:18:59 pm »

It's janky as hell, but Pendelhaven might be worth it to maximize Selkie.
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Stormanimagus
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« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2009, 02:58:11 am »

The entire point of Root Maze/Thorn/Back to Basics is that they make Constable's bounce ability brutal *and* combo well together without the need for Constable.

I understand that. But whether you're talking about Root Maze, Thorn, B2B, Null Rod, Stifle, Wasteland, etc., it's ALL mana denial and there is BEST mana denial right now. B2B is not gonna be as effective right now as many players are running basic islands, and it won't necessarily cut them off. And trust me. If you are getting Constable through for 1-2 damage a turn you'll be winning with WHATEVER lock pieces you've set up. Bouncing multiple permanents a turn will give you that advantage. The trick is keeping him on the board. That's why Daze + FoW seem like a good idea. They protect your bomb and stop your opponents threats and both are potentially 0 CMC. I still think that Selkie is better MD as drawing 1 off it is more acceptable than bouncing 1 permanent a turn against combo and control and I'd argue that combo and control make up most of the field in Vintage right now. It is also not irrelevant that Selkie has Islandwalk and should be unblockable vs. many decks.

Constable is a good card and could fit in this deck, but I'd need some more convincing to make a deck that really abuses him.
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« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2009, 11:27:56 am »

This deck should run 1-2 giant growth. With a selkie, it is basicly a recall + Lighting bolt and with constable it is just unfair.
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« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2009, 07:18:31 pm »

I think that rancor would be better. He would give both trample, making sure that they got through. Multiple rancor on either would be nuts.
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« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2009, 12:36:54 am »

I think that rancor would be better. He would give both trample, making sure that they got through. Multiple rancor on either would be nuts.

Agreed, but I don't think either is good enough. Vintage is all about cards that either generate card advantage or lock the opponent out of their game (which is another way of expressing card advantage). Pump Spells do niether. Sure they are good on a Selkie, but my objective is to keep that selkie on the board so he can continue drawing me 1-2 cards a turn so I can continue to find answers to my opponents threats through my Card Advantage. Vintage is not about "Winning Big" It's about winning the little CA wars until you can finally develop a strangle-hold on the opponent. Heck, even Combo decks can play that role if they truly have to, matching the opponents answers to the combo card for card until it can finally "combo out."

I just don't think it's worth having a card that doesn't serve multiple purposes. Here's the thing one should expect of a typical Vintage playable card:

1. It Wins the game/ you base a deck around it. . . Tendrils, Mindslaver, Darksteel Colossus, Tezzeret, Tarmogoyf, Oath Of Druids

2. It's an Engine/ Produces unfair mana. . . Mana Drain, Yawgmoth's Will, Dark Ritual, Mishra's Workshop, Solomoxen, Land Tax

3. It draws more than 1 card or helps you to find what you need. . . Ancestral, Brainstorm, Demonic Tutor, Other Tutors, Impulse, Thirst, Gifts, Fact, Night's Whisper

4. It is a card that locks a strategy of the opponent's out. . . Null Rod, Chalice, Trinisphere, Tangle Wire, Ethersworn Canonist, Meddling Mage, Pithing Needle, Root Maze, Gaddock Teeg, True Believer, Energy Flux,

5. It's pure disruption. . . Duress, Thoughtseize, FoW, Unmask, Daze, Wasteland

NOW, there are exceptions in Vintage to these rules I'm sure (helper cards like Sword Of Fire And Ice), but even those cards could probably be categorized in to one of these 5 categories.

Ok, given these categories, I submit that any card that is not a staple and can stand on its own in a single category (FoW, Dark Ritual, Null Rod, Ancestral, Tendrils Of Agony are ones from different categories that come to mind) and still wants to be Vintage playable must fit the bill for at least 2 of these categories to be Vintage playable.

I cannot re-iterate this enough. And, getting back to the question from before, this is a main reason I would NOT run Rancor or Giant Growth. For all the games I'd top-deck them and over-run my opponent with CA I'll have a majority of other games where it is a poor draw and I'd wished I could have drawn something to save my Selkie or something to stop my opponent from winning

The games where I win after casting either spell are probably games I would have taken anyway.

Let me put it this way. Was Ophidian ever playable? Yes. Selkie drawing 1 extra card for you a turn IS something the opponent will have to deal with. With Noble Hierarch making him deal 2 a turn then that's just synergystic gravy

One does not need to kick a dead horse. He/she simply needs to make sure it dies.

People truly need to understand a bit of game theory here. "Win more" is glorious to think about, but any card that is "overkill" in a lot of games will end up costing you a lot of games as well when it is not the card you need. Hence, "Win more" cards are actually "Lose more" cards.

Vintage is a tightly woven fabric of the most powerful raw decks creatable in magic coupled with the most precise and subtle hate the game has to offer. The sooner new Vintage players understand this truth, the faster their learning curve to becoming great Vintage players will be.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 12:41:23 am by Stormanimagus » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2009, 02:12:31 am »

That is a very essentialistic vision Storm. I agree with most things you said but keep in mind nothing is absolute. Sometimes a card doesn't directly show what it does in essence. We have see 1 mana investments that deliver 2 damage/turn in the past that top 8'. Savannah Lions and Isamaru for example. Rancor could be seen in a similar way. It speeds up the clock hence making less time available for the opponent. The trample is also not bad these days with bitterblossoms and other chumb blockers. There are a lot of situations were rancor would be good. (tarm+rancor is also strong)

Back in the days I use to run rancor all the time. It was great on River Boa :p

In the present it is questionable though. But I think it could be a good card in the right deck. Whether this is the right deck is also questionable.

Don't dismiss ideas too quickly but stay critical at the same time, but I think you did just that by replying to the post. Nice
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« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2009, 11:48:46 am »

That is a very essentialistic vision Storm. I agree with most things you said but keep in mind nothing is absolute. Sometimes a card doesn't directly show what it does in essence. We have see 1 mana investments that deliver 2 damage/turn in the past that top 8'. Savannah Lions and Isamaru for example. Rancor could be seen in a similar way. It speeds up the clock hence making less time available for the opponent. The trample is also not bad these days with bitterblossoms and other chumb blockers. There are a lot of situations were rancor would be good. (tarm+rancor is also strong)

Back in the days I use to run rancor all the time. It was great on River Boa :p

In the present it is questionable though. But I think it could be a good card in the right deck. Whether this is the right deck is also questionable.

Don't dismiss ideas too quickly but stay critical at the same time, but I think you did just that by replying to the post. Nice

You're right. Dismissing ideas too quickly is definitely not my style and I always like innovative ways to abuse cards. And don't get me wrong, the combination of Selkie + Rancor + a swing is pretty sick CA and may win you games but the problem lies in the fact that that is a 3-action combo.

You need 3 things to happen for that to succeed. The Selkie, A Rancor and a successful Swing. If an opponent is allowing that to happen then you're probably going to beat them anyway. That's all I was saying. Now Rancor has some added advantages as an Aura. If they try to bounce or Kill The Selkie you do get it back.

I would say that it is THE STRONGEST pump spell I could think of, but I'm just not sure the deck needs pump as much as disruption. I will reconsider, but I just don't know what slots I'd cut to make room.

Testing, as always = tech so I will not pass final judgements until I do.

My previous post was just to illustrate a general point about potential Vintage playables. It is not a hard-and-fast rule and if you can break a card that doesn't SEEM to fit those criteria at first I'm open to ideas like that. The funny thing is, ONCE a card is broken like that it'll probably end up moving to one of the categories I proposed. heehee Smile.
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« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2009, 12:00:52 pm »


 And don't get me wrong, the combination of Selkie + Rancor + a swing is pretty sick CA and may win you games but the problem lies in the fact that that is a 3-action combo.

You know how many actions you need to win with storm?
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« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2009, 12:03:21 pm »

The deck could easily go mono-green as has been recommended before, with a lot of answers and permanent-based disruption. Selkie, with or without the extra damage from Exalted, will power out your mana base and let you play through your own disruption.

Choke should be amazing in this current meta! Combined with Root Maze and/or Tangle Wire, Islands will be locked out. It can be played turn 1 or 2 with Elvish Spirit Guides and power.

River Boa and/or Troll Ascetic help to beat Fish and hold down Tarmogoyf while your island-walking Selkie gets through for the win.

Deglamer can come out of the side to answer Darksteel Colossus, and likewise you can play Seal of Primordium/Krosan Grip for Oath of Druids.

4 Choke
4 Root Maze
1 Trinisphere
4 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Null Rod
4 Tangle Wire

4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Noble Heirarch
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
4 River Boa
4 Vexing Shusher

12 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald

EDIT: SB
4 Pithing Needle
4 Deglamer
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 ___

Something like that as a draft?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 12:18:44 pm by policehq » Logged
bluemage55
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« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2009, 04:24:43 pm »

You know how many actions you need to win with storm?

Note that it wasn't 3 actions to win with Selkie, but to gain card advantge.  Storm normally pulls it off with 2 actions (one accelerant, one mid-high CC spell to gain significant CA).
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« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2009, 05:45:40 pm »

All Right guys. Because I try to give everything its fair shot I've come up with a Mono-Green Selkie deck, as promised. The main question I have are "how does this deal with Tinker + Colossus?" Should I put Deglamer in the SB just for that? Also, because this is mono-green are there better finishers out there than Tarmogoyf? I have Hidden Gibbons in there, but is there a creature you'd replace tarmogoyf with as well? Aight, here it is.

Mono-Green Swamp Thing

Land (18):
1 Pendelhaven
11 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library Of Alexandria

Artifacts (11):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Null Rod

Creatures (16):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Cold-Eyed Selkie
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Enchantments (15):
4 Seal Of Primordium
4 Root Maze
3 Hidden Gibbons
4 Rancor

SB
4 Wheel Of Sun And Moon
3 Relic Of Progenitus
4 Choke
4 Thorn Of Amethyst

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« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2009, 08:48:57 pm »

Tarmogoyf is really bad with all the permanents maindeck. After several tests, he showed himself to be a 2/3 or 3/4 vanilla creature far too often for the space required.

Chalice of the Void is a good replacement for River Boa; the synnergy is good with Vexing Shusher, and it gives you an additional lock piece to play turn 1.

There's nothing wrong really with locking your opponent out and beating with Spirit Guides, Shushers, Selkies, etc.
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