With Tezzeret dominating, what would it be safe to unrestrict?

[M.Solymossy]

Key Vault decks are no different than the TPS deck, and nobody complained about them.  It's also no different than the gush decks.   Cast X amount of fair cards (Thirst, Gush, Brainstorm), Tutor for one card (Yawgmoth's Will, Fastbond, Bargain, etc), then randomly have another stupid card in play or in hand, or just tutor for that too.        They play out the same way.   I have had WAY more turn 1 kills with Yawmoth's Will than I have had with Tezzeret.dec.  Actually, I've only had ONE turn 1 "kill" with tezzeret.

Key / Vault is very efficient, but is in no way more broken than anything else We've had in this format.  

And you can argue that gushdecks were restricted, but lets be honest, they were MUCH more broken than anything in this current format...

[Smmenen]

You miss the point.   There is no single Gush deck that ever perform as well as Tez is right now in terms of 1) tournament wins out of possible wins and 2) % of top 8s.   Mana Drain decks are wiping the format, and are far more dominant than Gush decks ever were.    Ever.   

And you can argue that gushdecks were restricted, but lets be honest, they were MUCH more broken than anything in this current format...

 Flash is more "broken" than the Gush decks were, and it wasn't nearly as good.   We don't care if things are "broken," necessarily, but we definitely care if they are dominating the format.  Gush decks weren't.   Mana Drain decks are. 

[M.Solymossy]

IDK how you can claim that gush decks weren't dominating the format.  Sure, less people were playing them,  but I'd like some results data.   


Doesn't anyone remember Star City Games Indianapolis, where the top 8 was 7 gush decks and 1 dredge deck?  Or Vintage Champs 2k7, where there was a Gush Finals.  Or the two or three Waterburies that Rich top8ed with Gush decks (and won).   I won events with gush decks, and so did EVERYONE else.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Key Vault decks are no different than the TPS deck, and nobody complained about them.  It's also no different than the gush decks.   Cast X amount of fair cards (Thirst, Gush, Brainstorm), Tutor for one card (Yawgmoth's Will, Fastbond, Bargain, etc), then randomly have another stupid card in play or in hand, or just tutor for that too.        They play out the same way.   I have had WAY more turn 1 kills with Yawmoth's Will than I have had with Tezzeret.dec.  Actually, I've only had ONE turn 1 "kill" with tezzeret.

Key / Vault is very efficient, but is in no way more broken than anything else We've had in this format.  

And you can argue that gushdecks were restricted, but lets be honest, they were MUCH more broken than anything in this current format...

Well thats because Tezzeret.deck isn't built to win fast its built as a control deck with a combo finish. I seriously think that a pure combo deck with key/vault would be more consistant if not also faster than TPS simply because you can run 10+straight tutors for either combo piece and 15+digging cards. The combo itself costs 2/2/1 mana that can be split throughout multiple turns. Suddenly burning a dark ritual to grim tutor on turn 1 becomes a consistant play that doesn't seem as bad as before where every mana counts if you want to just go broken with Will or draw-7. I mean advantages to running it in a pure combo engine vs draw-7sare:

-Its all colorless so theres no risk in fetching a dual land against mana denial decks or not having the right mana source.
-Theres no fizzling since its essentially a cheaper mana cost Yawgmoth's Bargain that costs no life.
-You can share the total mana cost among multiple turns.
-It automatically wins by itself unlike draw-7s which can still require Yawgmoth's Will.
-Doesn't give your opponent 7 cards.
-Once both pieces are down you don't have to pass the turn.

Disadvantages:
-Gets shut down by Null Rod and Pithing Needle. (Only one of which actually does something if you just go for a win with Will)
-Costs only 2 more mana than a draw-7.

In all honesty this deck would more or less function like WGD except less vulnerable to hate, can support Will (which we can all agree is a plus), doesn't depend on the graveyard or creatures, is only a 2-card combo to win unlike WGD which gets a draw with 2 cards and needs 3 to actually draw its deck. Very scary in my opionion.

[Troy_Costisick]

IDK how you can claim that gush decks weren't dominating the format.  Sure, less people were playing them,  but I'd like some results data.   

The first page of this thread: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37195.0 will give you all the links and data you need regarding Gush's (lack of) complete dominance in its second era. 

[Akuma]

Doesn't anyone remember Star City Games Indianapolis, where the top 8 was 7 gush decks and 1 dredge deck?  Or Vintage Champs 2k7, where there was a Gush Finals.  Or the two or three Waterburies that Rich top8ed with Gush decks (and won).   I won events with gush decks, and so did EVERYONE else.

I don't know about EVERYONE else winning with Gush decks, that is reaching a little. It is clear that skill was what was winning. The 2k7 Vintage Champs was a Gush on Gush finals, but it was a Shay vs. Menendian final, two of the most well-known and respected Vintage players. There is no way we should be complaining about that. A problem would have been if unknown vs. unknown faced off in the finals with hideously broken decks. That was not the case.

Bringing Rich up does not help your point, he played Gush decks almost exclusively, he is an expert. It only makes sense that he would do well. Another thing to remember is that Vintage is filled with the flavor of the week players, and that is something to take into account when seeing isolated results like SCG Indy.

[Eastman]

Anyway with across-the-board improvements in matchups, one deck that's already good would get a lot better.  So that's worrisome.  And who knows what else people would concoct?  I don't think there are many criteria for unrestriction that would counsel in favor of it for a card with (1) low cost, (2) a broken effect, (3) an obvious home for it in an already competitive deck.

What's the point of unrestricting something with a high cost, non-broken effect, and no obvious home in competitive decks?

The point is you'd like to have a smaller restricted list.  You'd unrestrict a lousy card (like grim monolith) simply because it doesn't belong there, and the default should be non-restricted.

In the situations that you list, you there are still the basic defenses like FoW and various counterspells.

  You can still cast Force of Will against it.  You can still Drain it.  You can still Duress or Thoughtseize it out of their hand since it is sorcery speed.

You prove too much.  This argument can be applied to every spell on the restricted list (except to some extent Mind's Desire). 

[nineisnoone]

Anyway with across-the-board improvements in matchups, one deck that's already good would get a lot better.  So that's worrisome.  And who knows what else people would concoct?  I don't think there are many criteria for unrestriction that would counsel in favor of it for a card with (1) low cost, (2) a broken effect, (3) an obvious home for it in an already competitive deck.

What's the point of unrestricting something with a high cost, non-broken effect, and no obvious home in competitive decks?

The point is you'd like to have a smaller restricted list.  You'd unrestrict a lousy card (like grim monolith) simply because it doesn't belong there, and the default should be non-restricted.

In the situations that you list, you there are still the basic defenses like FoW and various counterspells.

  You can still cast Force of Will against it.  You can still Drain it.  You can still Duress or Thoughtseize it out of their hand since it is sorcery speed.

You prove too much.  This argument can be applied to every spell on the restricted list (except to some extent Mind's Desire). 

If the default is non-restriction, then how come you are making a presumptive restriction on Balance? 

In your own way, you prove too much as well.  Low cost. Broken effect. Home for it in an already competitive deck.  We can immediately look at the pillars of Vintage and give them those attributes.  Mana Drain.  Force of Will.  Dark Ritual.  Mishra's Workshop.  Depending on how we define "broken", there is probably a long list of cards we can name. 

We could hypothetically assume a Vintage format where Force of Will is restricted and make the decision to keep it unrestricted based on it having those qualities.  So then on what basis do is it unrestricted?  Because it certainly isn't because it lacks any one of those qualities.  We could say it is given a special exception because it is necessary (which I personally don't buy), but we can't say the same thing for Workshop or Ritual. 

Because it's like you said, the default is non-restricted.  Everybody admits that Balance is a phenomenally powerful card.  And everybody (if asked specifically I feel) would admit that effective Balance requires more on just inserting it into a deck that runs white. And yet, we presumptively assume that this new deck with Balance would be a problem.  I didn't list ways it can be answered to show how it is uniquely vulnerable.  I listed them to show how it is not uniquely vulnerable.  If there are adequate ways to deal with it, then presumptively it should be playable because regardless of how the deck is realized, there are still adequate ways to deal with it. 

Certainly, there should be cards that remain restricted.  But those cards are either ridiculously efficient resource generators (Recall, Moxen, etc) or ridiculously efficient force multipliers (Tutors).  Balance is neither of those things.  Balance is a narrow, but extremely powerful, disruption card.  And has more in common with cards that are left unrestricted, than the defining set of restricted cards.



As far as my proving too much goes, that assumes that I wouldn't be against the restriction of every spell on the restricted list.  I probably have a much broader range of within the world of things I'd like to see unrestricted than most.  Going into the ones that are commonly arguable, I wouldn't mind seeing Ponder, Balance, Merchant Scroll, Burning Wish, Gush, Flash, Crop Rotation, Gifts Ungiven, Fact or Fiction, and Trinisphere coming off the list.  I would cut the line at Brainstorm, Enlightened Tutor, and Strip Mine. 

[M.Solymossy]

I wouldn't mind seeing Ponder, Balance, Merchant Scroll, Burning Wish, Gush, Flash, Crop Rotation, Gifts Ungiven, Fact or Fiction, and Trinisphere coming off the list.  I would cut the line at Brainstorm, Enlightened Tutor, and Strip Mine. 

Wait wait wait, so you're going to let me play Fastbond, 4 Ponders, 4 Merchant Scrolls, 4 Gush, and 4 Fact in the same deck?!!?!?!??!?!!?!?!?!?

INSANE!  I'm all for this!

[jamestosetti]

To the person who asked If I am from Italy. No My name is Italian but I am from Illinois. I play type 1 on magic workstation where I win about 90 percent of the time. If your ever in mwsplay and see the name james with a join note of  type 1 vintage vintage vintage thats me.

[LordHomerCat]

Illinois?  Most of IL is within range of a lot of tournaments around Chicago and Milwaukee.  Also, winning on workstation is pretty meaningless =/

[Smmenen]

IDK how you can claim that gush decks weren't dominating the format.  Sure, less people were playing them,  but I'd like some results data.   

Have you read my bimonthly metagame reports, where I breakdown each and every single reported top 8 and aggregate the numbers?

Look at my bimonthly metagame reports, the first covered June 20-August, 2007, the second covered September-October, 2007.  The third covered Nov/Dec, 2007.   The Fourth covered Jan/Feb, 2008, and so on through June 20.    All of those articles are now free and can be easily accessed.  

Gush decks NEVER made up more than 25% of Top 8s, and no single archetype usually made up more than 18% of top 8s.    Compare that to Mana Drain decks which are now 45% of top 8s, and Tezzeret decks, which are already 24% of top 8s.  

There are AS MANY Tezzeret decks in Top 8s right now as there were Gush decks PERIOD -- not simply specific popular Gush archtypes -- in the Gush era.


As I said, Gush decks never dominated the way that Mana Drain decks, and Tez in particular, are dominating now.   Not even in the same league.    The proof is in the pudding, not your factually incorrect claims.

[nineisnoone]

I wouldn't mind seeing Ponder, Balance, Merchant Scroll, Burning Wish, Gush, Flash, Crop Rotation, Gifts Ungiven, Fact or Fiction, and Trinisphere coming off the list.  I would cut the line at Brainstorm, Enlightened Tutor, and Strip Mine. 

Wait wait wait, so you're going to let me play Fastbond, 4 Ponders, 4 Merchant Scrolls, 4 Gush, and 4 Fact in the same deck?!!?!?!??!?!!?!?!?!?

INSANE!  I'm all for this!

I would keep Fastbond restricted (though re-reading, I think you weren't suggesting otherwise). 

But otherwise, yes.  Brainstorm > Fact in my opinion, at the very least in most Gush decks.  And I didn't really have that many issues with Gush as it was.

[jamestosetti]

Homer that made a whole lot of sense considering Chicago is at the northernmost part of illinois and it would only take me 5 hours to drive there. Why is winning on workstation meaningless? I don't think it matters if you know how to play your deck  and why the pot shots at me? I'd be glad to play you sometime if you think I suck. If you go to alot of type 1 you'll see me one day because I'll eventually start going to tournaments.

[M.Solymossy]

I am from Illinois. I play type 1 on magic workstation where I win about 90 percent of the time.

Wow, so you're the magic equivalent of a practice hero? Nice job!

If you're in Illinois, why don't you come play magic with the big boys?  I play magic in Illinois from time to time, and top8 events and have won several in that state, too...

[jamestosetti]

Hey it sounds great. I like that-"the big boys". What state are you from? I can go to anything in the mid to southern part of the state pretty easily and Missouri but Chicago is a bit far for this year. Also Ive never been to anything bigger than a 12 person type 1 tourny but I'm sure I could hold my own. We have the workstation right now though I   don't see why we couldn't play there? Would it be a blow to your confidence if you lost to a less experienced person?

[LordHomerCat]

Soly and I are both in the Milwaukee area.  I was suggesting you could attend some events because you complained earlier about never getting to play in person and it seemed like a reasonable suggestion that you could attend something in your state.  I try to make it to most of the Chicago area stuff myself.  Workstation testing doesn't compare to actual tournament data because the competition level and the intensity of it just doesn't compare.  The atmosphere of a tournament is another added element, especially in the top 8 with people watching, which Workstation is unable to duplicate.  And, a lot of people on workstation are not playing the deck they would use for a tournament.  People use it to test all sorts of off-the-wall and untuned ideas which they would never bring to a real tournament.

[jamestosetti]

I would suggest that you and your friend Soly attend the once a year tournament in my location since I do. I mean the chicago area is mutch closer to you, its 5 hours from me. Even if it is my state other states are closer to me. It would cost me hundreds of dollars to come up there. And the way I see it you have declined a challenge that would cost you nothing. If the heat of the top 8 is to much for you why not enjoy a distraction free enviroment? Any deck  I play you with I own to at least 6 proxy. I mean apart from saying I'll play a match or 2 with you any more words are beating around the bush of I 'm afraid I might lose or have a good time lol.

[M.Solymossy]

your friend Soly

* this is me, btw.

I can't stand Magic Workstation, for the record.  Any Computer Science student, or anyone in the field, will tell you the "random shuffler" cannot actually be random.   Being behind a computer screen also eliminates all play skill, as the game becomes more like Poker.   You don't get to read your opponent, and make them make mistakes.   

That said,  I guarentee you ANY day of the week, Jimmy McCarthy (LordHomerCat) and myself will place higher than you.   This isn't as much arrogance as fact. 
Jimmy and I top8 every event we play in, give or take maybe one in every five.

[Godder]

This thread, while interesting in parts, has well and truly fallen of the rails. If Jamestosetti and M.Solymossy have anything else they'd like to add to their current discussion, do it by PM, which is where it should have been in the first place.

Locked.

[Demonic Attorney]

To add to the above:  The Advanced Vintage Forum is now the only place to discuss otherwise "banned" topics.  So, threads about B/R list modifications, deck tiers, etc. will not be allowed in Open anymore.  No exceptions.