Optimizing Tezzeret

[M.Solymossy]

AK/Intuition is kind of clumsy now when Brainstorm has been restricted and also a risky strategy with Extirpate lurking in each and every sideboard.

Look up my Vintage Championship deck.  More people played extirpate then, than they do now.   I didn't have any problems.

[Purple Hat]

1) I find in general that the primary strategy for Tezzeret (by this I really mean Vault/Key combo- thanks Soly)

when I read this something clicked.  I think tezz is much more of a combo deck than a control deck.  Even more so than Gifts ever was.  it is able to take over the control role vs combo but I think that's mostly because without brainstorm most of our traditional combo approaches can't produce the high density of threats necessary to overwhelm its control base.  I've found in testing that the best way to attack tezz is just to be hyper aggressive and keep throwing things out there, which is somewhat different from what many of us are accustomed to when playing against drains.

[zeus-online]

1) I find in general that the primary strategy for Tezzeret (by this I really mean Vault/Key combo- thanks Soly)

when I read this something clicked.  I think tezz is much more of a combo deck than a control deck.  Even more so than Gifts ever was.  it is able to take over the control role vs combo but I think that's mostly because without brainstorm most of our traditional combo approaches can't produce the high density of threats necessary to overwhelm its control base.  I've found in testing that the best way to attack tezz is just to be hyper aggressive and keep throwing things out there, which is somewhat different from what many of us are accustomed to when playing against drains.

Hmm? Depends on the list and playstyle....For me it's more of a control deck then gifts was, although i tend to play these combo-control deck very controllish.
Oh and for those who think tezzeret is better then gifts was....No way, Gifts was way stronger imo, and faster.

/Zeus

[tito del monte]

Also I'd love to run Tarmogoyf but without splashing a third color. What on-color beatstick options are possibly viable? Sea Drake anyone? Phyrexian Negator?

Hi Reaperbong,

You might like desolutionist's list featureing Esperzoa in this thread:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37229.30

[Grand Inquisitor]

I think tezz is much more of a combo deck than a control deck

Depends on the list and playstyle....For me it's more of a control deck then gifts was

Somewhere in between these.  What vault/key allows is for the other cards to be extremely customizable.  I'd agree with zues to a certain extent and say that Tezzeret lists tend to run more controlling elements than Gifts did.  Tezzeret is also much better able to play the role that its cards give it.  By this I mean, that it can play control very easily because it runs lots of controlling cards, but if it has a few tutors and a pitch counter it can go for the turn 2 win.  Gifts, particularly later in its development would win more frequently with Tendrils which requires a higher concentration of broken tutors, draw and mana AND it needed to continue to sculpt its hand towards this end over the early turns in order to achieve the requirements for a Tendrils kill.

[Blue Lotus]

5) *warning, I've been pissing into the wind for years on this, intuition/AK is SO much better than Thirst For Knowledge.  Depending on the list, I've run both, but I'd never just go with 4x Thirst for Knowledge and crappy artifacts.

This is so true.  The fact is the intuition itself is so versatile.  Just look at GI's tourney reports to see just how.  I think many have trouble wrapping their head around this because Thirst is just that broken, but 2-4x INT 4x Ak is worth the slots.  I mean you don't NEED duress. AK is pure card draw, and when you don't need it, INT is a tutor.  Don't get wrapped up in cumulative mana cost, the net effect is drawing lots of cards, or stacking your graveyard with stuff like ancient grudge.  Baller.  And don't even worry about graveyard hate.  If, for example, someone extirpates in response to an AK, then they are out an card and you aren't, so they are foolish.  Honestly, Intuition/AK is money.

[reaperbong]

I decided I'm going to splash White for Ethersworn Canonist, at least for the sideboard. Are there any other White cards to consider besides StP and Path to Exile? yea I doubt it but can't hurt to ask.

Also going to test Esperzoas, will pick a playset up at the shop tomorrow.. props Tito Del Monte! Hadn't even seen this card yet. 
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wow are people really so bored with Tezzeret already?

Well I picked up a playset of Esperzoas and re-vamped my list with the blue Mage's new Tarmogoyf:

4x Esperzoa
1x Tezzeret the Seeker
1x Voltaic Key
1x Time Vault
1x Tinker
1x DSC

4x Force of Will
4x Mana Drain
4x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Brainstorm
1x Time Walk
1x Echoing Truth
1x Hurkyll's Recall
1x Misdirection
3x Tutor (MT, VT, DT)
1x Merchant Scroll
3x Thoughtseize
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Gifts Ungiven
1x Fact or Fiction

3x Island
1x Snow-covered Island
4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Tolarian Academy
1x Strip Mine
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
1x Sol Ring
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault

Sideboard:
3x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Tundra
4x Tormod's Crypt
2x Hydroblast
2x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Hurkyll's Recall
1x Echoing Truth
1x Tezzeret the Seeker

I need more artifacts I know, trying to save up to buy the off-color Moxen i need but it's going to take a while, those are certainly neccessary.

I can't make up my mind between 3x Esperzoa and 2x Tezzeret or 4x Esperzoa and 1x Tezzeret so I'm keeping 1 Tez in the board now.

Loving the Esperzoa btw, even the small synergy with bouncing Crypt and Vault is pretty damn cool I think. This guy is waiting to be broken, perhaps with a card that will be printed in the future who knows. Even with no artifacts and bouncing every turn he's a great chump blocker that can eat Bobs and Goyfs with no problem, the drawback means nothing when all you need is to defend Tezzeret for 1 turn.

[CHOZO]

Here's the list I am playing with. Currently I am trying to figure out how to fit the Tarmogoyfs in the main deck. I also want to cut something for Vampiric Tutor but I have no idea what. What do you think I should cut for the Goyfs and Tutor?

4 Force of Will
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Repeal
3 Mana Drain
3 Mind Twist
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Dark Confidant
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Regrowth
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Gifts Ungiven
2 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Sundering Titan
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault
1 Academy Ruins
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
3 Island
1 Swamp

SB:
2 Extirpate
1 Volcanic Island
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Krosan Grip
4 Tarmogoyf

[reaperbong]

I don't know man not feeling the heavy black in this last, I cannot co-sign Dark Confidant as your draw engine. Care to elaborate on how you concluded this as your best option? Have you tested this alot? TfK is strictly better IMO.

You're light on counterspells which I see as a problem, discard doesn't really equal counterspells so you're not exactly compensating by using 4x Duress and 3x Mind Twist. Cut 1 Mind Twist at least for a 4th Drain and Mana Crypt is an auto-include if you're running Mind Twist (it's probably an auto-include anyway).

Repeal is nice but I'd go for some variety. Instead of 3x Repeal, 1x Chain of Vapor how about 2x Repeal, 1x Echoing Truth and 1x Hurkyll's Recall? Chain of Vapor can be completely uncastable in certain situations, Echoing Truth can save your ass against Ichorid and Hurkyll's Recall is just the best all around bounce spell you can ask for.

If nothing else you could do to drop the Academy Ruins for Vampric Tutor and - 1 Sensei's - 2 Mind Twist - 1 Chain of Vapor for the Goyfs.

Also Sundering Titan kinda sucks. He really needs to be backed up with a denial strategy (at least a Strip Mine???). He'll get chump blocked or eaten by an opposing DSC more times then you'd like to think.

[CHOZO]

I don't know man not feeling the heavy black in this last, I cannot co-sign Dark Confidant as your draw engine. Care to elaborate on how you concluded this as your best option? Have you tested this alot? TfK is strictly better IMO.

I've tested it quite a bit and have found that Dark Confidant is an excellent draw engine. Maybe it's just personal preference, but I would rather be drawing an extra card each turn over the length of a game then drawing three cards once. Not to mention he is a creature so I can get a little extra damage in each turn. That's made a difference in a few games. I haven't actually tested Thirst For Knowledge though, so I am definitely going to do that.

You're light on counterspells which I see as a problem, discard doesn't really equal counterspells so you're not exactly compensating by using 4x Duress and 3x Mind Twist. Cut 1 Mind Twist at least for a 4th Drain and Mana Crypt is an auto-include if you're running Mind Twist (it's probably an auto-include anyway).

I agree with you on the counterspell issue, but the problem is, I only own three Mana Drains. What if I ran a lone Pyroblast in it's place? As for Mana Crypt, I am reluctant to include it in the deck because what if I go infinite and the flips kill me? Has that ever been a problem for you?

Repeal is nice but I'd go for some variety. Instead of 3x Repeal, 1x Chain of Vapor how about 2x Repeal, 1x Echoing Truth and 1x Hurkyll's Recall? Chain of Vapor can be completely uncastable in certain situations, Echoing Truth can save your ass against Ichorid and Hurkyll's Recall is just the best all around bounce spell you can ask for.

Again, I am reluctant to lower the number of repeals. I need those to bounce my Dark Confidant, in case I go infinite. Although I do like the idea of replacing Chain of Vapor with Echoing Truth. That could probably help me in a lot of matchups.

If nothing else you could do to drop the Academy Ruins for Vampric Tutor and - 1 Sensei's - 2 Mind Twist - 1 Chain of Vapor for the Goyfs.

Thanks for the advice!

Also Sundering Titan kinda sucks. He really needs to be backed up with a denial strategy (at least a Strip Mine???). He'll get chump blocked or eaten by an opposing DSC more times then you'd like to think.

Yeah, I don't run Sundering Titan in the deck anymore. Lately I've been using Inkwell Leviathan. I just forgot to update the list

Thanks again for all the great criticism!

[neotrophy]

I don't know man not feeling the heavy black in this last, I cannot co-sign Dark Confidant as your draw engine. Care to elaborate on how you concluded this as your best option? Have you tested this alot? TfK is strictly better IMO.

I've tested it quite a bit and have found that Dark Confidant is an excellent draw engine. Maybe it's just personal preference, but I would rather be drawing an extra card each turn over the length of a game then drawing three cards once. Not to mention he is a creature so I can get a little extra damage in each turn. That's made a difference in a few games. I haven't actually tested Thirst For Knowledge though, so I am definitely going to do that.

Firstly reaperbong, I'd debate your use of "strictly" better here, only because slower, continuous draw, I believe is better for control decks.  But the loss of life, particularly with 7 cards with CMC >= 5 strikes me as too much of a disadvantage to make it worth the risk.  Thirst is a very good card, and Tezz decks lend themselves to a high concentration of artifacts.

I still really like the European (I think it's mostly Italy) approach to the Tezzeret deck.  Lots of really low casting cost artifacts, including Seat of the Synod, lots of mana acceleration, and Thoughtcast (as well as TfK).  The idea of treating Tezzeret as a combo deck, rather than a combo finish in a control deck is definitely interesting, and I think it has some merit.

You're light on counterspells which I see as a problem, discard doesn't really equal counterspells so you're not exactly compensating by using 4x Duress and 3x Mind Twist. Cut 1 Mind Twist at least for a 4th Drain and Mana Crypt is an auto-include if you're running Mind Twist (it's probably an auto-include anyway).

I agree with you on the counterspell issue, but the problem is, I only own three Mana Drains. What if I ran a lone Pyroblast in it's place? As for Mana Crypt, I am reluctant to include it in the deck because what if I go infinite and the flips kill me? Has that ever been a problem for you?

Um... You run Confidant, which deals about the same damage on average in your deck, only in less predictable chunks. 

Edit: Oops, missed a close on a quote level there.

[CHOZO]

neotrophy, do you have an example European list? It does sound interesting.

[Grand Inquisitor]

***recommendation on posting:

Don't include your own comments in the quote (darker shaded area).  It confuses people and no, bolding your remarks doesn't really help***


Back to topic...

Quote from: CHOZO on Today at 06:51:15 AM
Quote from: reaperbong on Today at 03:20:56 AM
I don't know man not feeling the heavy black in this last, I cannot co-sign Dark Confidant as your draw engine. Care to elaborate on how you concluded this as your best option? Have you tested this alot? TfK is strictly better IMO.

I've tested it quite a bit and have found that Dark Confidant is an excellent draw engine. Maybe it's just personal preference, but I would rather be drawing an extra card each turn over the length of a game then drawing three cards once. Not to mention he is a creature so I can get a little extra damage in each turn. That's made a difference in a few games. I haven't actually tested Thirst For Knowledge though, so I am definitely going to do that.

Firstly reaperbong, I'd debate your use of "strictly" better here, only because slower, continuous draw, I believe is better for control decks.  But the loss of life, particularly with 7 cards with CMC >= 5 strikes me as too much of a disadvantage to make it worth the risk.  Thirst is a very good card, and Tezz decks lend themselves to a high concentration of artifacts.

Regarding Dark Confidant, it's a real departure in playstyle from the versions that use some blue instant form of card draw.  Dark Confidant trades a higher mana threshold for a much slower return on investment of card advantage.  As a consequence these versions are much less explosive but much more resilient to mana denial strategies.  This is an intuitive conclusion that I'm drawing here, but the last few years seem to teach us that the more aggressive a control deck, the better.  There are exceptions in metagames that are dominated by fish and stax, but usually the 'best deck' is some form of engine + restricted blue and black cards with combo control dealing with the fish/shop matchups with its sideboard.

More minor points are that (1) since Vault/Key is the win condition, having a permanent source of life loss (regardless of how many repeals you run) is risky and (2) Dark Confidant activates what would have been dead creature removal in other decks.

European (I think it's mostly Italy) approach to the Tezzeret deck.  Lots of really low casting cost artifacts, including Seat of the Synod, lots of mana acceleration, and Thoughtcast (as well as TfK).  The idea of treating Tezzeret as a combo deck, rather than a combo finish in a control deck is definitely interesting, and I think it has some merit.

I think these builds are really innovative and a ton of fun to play.  However, they push you even further into trouble against mana denial strategies with only a slight benefit to speed and threat density.

[Wollblad]

We can compare Dark Confidant (DC) and Night's Whisper (NW). They both cost  at sourcery speed. It will take DC two turns to draw the same amount of cards that NW draws you immediately. The difference will be that in the mean time DC can inflict some damage on your opponent. A Tezzeret deck does however not (primarily) win by inflicting damage and the real difference is hence that it takes two extra rounds to draw the cards. In rare cases, DC draws more than two cards and that can win you the match, but it will happen more often that you lose the match because the two extra turns it takes you to get the cards. The only conclusion can hence be that DC is strictly inferior to NW in Tezzeret decks.

I have also tested the approach with Thoughtcast but I'm not satisfied with the results. In early game, the result is most often that you must pay 3 mana on turn two or three to draw two cards. It's nice in midgame but too weak in lategame. Once again, we can compare this to NW which is good both in early game and midgame. The Thoughtcast approach also makes you more vulnerable to Null Rod and Gorilla Shaman which both already are huge speedbumps.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Confidant can also randomly kill you *after* Vault-Key is up and running.

[sundering jerk]

If you were going to splash white (which I don't think is the right idea) what do you guys think of the following cards?

Balance

Enlightened tutor

[neotrophy]

Balance, without a doubt.  It's a great card, and a very good Wrath versus well, pretty much anything, with other application, too.  Enlightened Tutor, I'm not so sold on for most Tezzeret builds that you might try to add white to.  Other than your win conditions, there really isn't much that it can find for you.  I think that the test of a tutor, particularly one in what tries to be a control deck is that it finds you answers.  If it finds questions too, that's a big bonus.  Merchant Scroll is a pretty good example, it finds counters, bounce and other tutors, it also happens to find Ancestral Recall and Gifts Ungiven (note that I'm talking about now, not in a Gush/Scroll engine).  I tend to think of cards in Vintage decks as "I'm staring down a loss next turn and have minimal resources; how does this help me pull myself out of the fire?".  Decent vintage decks are well and truly powerful enough for winning to take care of itself, all you have to do is make sure your opponent doesn't win first; I don't see how Enlightened Tutor really helps with that.

But I'm inclined to agree with your assessment, jerk (heh).  I don't think that adding white is a very good idea.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Well if you add white you can also run Jotun Grunt instead of goyf which not only protects your key/vault from welder and random graveyard RFG if you discard a piece but is also always bigger than opposing goyfs. I only mention this because some tezz lists splash green and white is just as good.

Oh and Enlightened Tutor can fetch key/vault/EE/lotus/tormod's/pithing/etc. so it can definitely help you both win and stop your opponent from winning since I assume cheap and colorless falls under "minimal resources". You can even run stuff like remora or top and boom ET becomes card draw or Aether Spellbomb and it becomes bounce. There is a very good reason Enlightened Tutor is restricted and I would definitely run it if I was splashing white lol.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Well if you add white you can also run Jotun Grunt instead of goyf which not only protects your key/vault from welder and random graveyard RFG if you discard a piece but is also always bigger than opposing goyfs. I only mention this because some tezz lists splash green and white is just as good.

And then you go for Yawgmoth's Will, and you've got no graveyard!  Nice tech.

There is a very good reason Enlightened Tutor is restricted

I beg to differ.

[zeus-online]

Here's the white cards i might play with:

Balance - SB or main, depends on meta and deck space...

Seal of cleansing - probably SB, it's a turn 1 defense against oath, a proactive answer to anything shops can throw at you...oh and it's decent against U/W fish

Swords to plowshares - Probably not, but i could see it in the SB

Path to exile - Similar to StP except that life dosn't matter for Tez as infi turns equals alot of damage...So it's basicly StP 5-8....but who wants to run that amount of StP's anyway?

Æthersworn cannonist - One of the very best white cards in vintage...Best SB card against combo EVER

Aven mindcensor - Well, probably not, but it is very good!

Meddling mage is also an option, but i fail to see where it would be game-breaking and worthy of much needed SB space.
If both green and white are splashed Ray of revelation is a very decent anti-oath card (if such a card should be necessary)
Exalted angel is simply too expensive...otherwise it would be a nice SB card against Aggro-control.

I'd probably never play E. Tutor....It's waay too limited. Grunt also seems misplaced.

I think that's about it...unless i find some super secret tech in my binders

/Zeus

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Well if you add white you can also run Jotun Grunt instead of goyf which not only protects your key/vault from welder and random graveyard RFG if you discard a piece but is also always bigger than opposing goyfs. I only mention this because some tezz lists splash green and white is just as good.

And then you go for Yawgmoth's Will, and you've got no graveyard!  Nice tech.

There is a very good reason Enlightened Tutor is restricted

I beg to differ.

Well I think that key/vault is significantly more powerful than Will but there is no point in dragging this across again. I only mentioned Grunt because people are splashing for goyf as a 3rd win condition that is also good against aggro and Grunt stops 2/3 of goyf tezz win conditions while also being good against aggro/welders/ichorid. I don't think tezz needs white I was just pointing out that it isn't as bad as just balance and ET. Zues raises a good point about it being a nice sideboard color.

Also maybe it is just me but I like ET despite it being a slightly worse mystical(instead of grabbing tinker and ancestral it grabs key/vault and lotus/top). The only thing it doesn't dig up is draw spells and if you're running Top/remora it can almost do that also. Oh and I guess post-board it grabs seal of cleansing/tormod's/pithing for more SB goodness to shore up bad matches. I suppose I should be more specific in saying that I would run ET in a more aggressive tezz list than in a more controling tezz list.

[Diakonov]

A lot of these cards are sounding more like, "Well, if I had to play white, I would play..." as opposed to a good reason TO play white.  Balance is very powerful and would be great against Fish, and I could see some good arguments being made for Enlightened Tutor, if not only for getting the other piece of the combo faster.  Personally, I don't think these two cards are important enough on their own to warrant adding white.

Æthersworn cannonist - One of the very best white cards in vintage...Best SB card against combo EVER

Cannonist is great against combo, but really if you want an effect like that you would be much better off with Arcane Lab anyway.  Combo can still play their moxen through Cannonist, and being an artifact himself makes him vulnerable to more than half of their bounce.

Well I think that key/vault is significantly more powerful than Will but there is no point in dragging this across again. I only mentioned Grunt because people are splashing for goyf as a 3rd win condition that is also good against aggro and Grunt stops 2/3 of goyf tezz win conditions while also being good against aggro/welders/ichorid. I don't think tezz needs white I was just pointing out that it isn't as bad as just balance and ET. Zues raises a good point about it being a nice sideboard color.

Again, Grunt is a poor man's Tarmogoyf in a color that is less useful (IMO).  There are certain circumstances where he might be better, but more often than not most would prefer Goyf.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

A lot of these cards are sounding more like, "Well, if I had to play white, I would play..." as opposed to a good reason TO play white.  Balance is very powerful and would be great against Fish, and I could see some good arguments being made for Enlightened Tutor, if not only for getting the other piece of the combo faster.  Personally, I don't think these two cards are important enough on their own to warrant adding white.

Æthersworn cannonist - One of the very best white cards in vintage...Best SB card against combo EVER

Cannonist is great against combo, but really if you want an effect like that you would be much better off with Arcane Lab anyway.  Combo can still play their moxen through Cannonist, and being an artifact himself makes him vulnerable to more than half of their bounce.

Well I think that key/vault is significantly more powerful than Will but there is no point in dragging this across again. I only mentioned Grunt because people are splashing for goyf as a 3rd win condition that is also good against aggro and Grunt stops 2/3 of goyf tezz win conditions while also being good against aggro/welders/ichorid. I don't think tezz needs white I was just pointing out that it isn't as bad as just balance and ET. Zues raises a good point about it being a nice sideboard color.

Again, Grunt is a poor man's Tarmogoyf in a color that is less useful (IMO).  There are certain circumstances where he might be better, but more often than not most would prefer Goyf.

I agree that tezz probably shouldn't splash white because if you're running white you will eventually arrive at some bomberman variant which best abuses white+blue+drains. I disagree that Grunt is just a poor man's goyf since they're very different cards. Tarmogoyf is just a huge stupid beater while Grunt is a big smart beater. Grunt kills opposing goyfs(makes future goyfs smaller also), saves you against opposing Welders (since with any artifact in your graveyard you lose 3/4 of your win conditions[tinker, tezz, key/vault, will]), can slow down Ichorid (possibly enough to turn around their game 1 bye against you), proactively stops opposing Welders (remove their discarded/countered fat), recycles your bombs (Ancestral+Tutors becomes a reusable draw engine in the control matchup), takes the edge off your opponent's Will, etc. The only time I would prefer goyf instead of Grunt is if my opponent doesn't run goyf or Welder or Bazaar and I have a hand lacking in tutors so I can't spam Ancestral/Walk and I can't assemble anything faster than a 4-5 turn clock goyf. To me it seems that running goyf instead of Grunt is much more situational than the other way around as you present it. Maybe it is just me but if I was making a deck that wanted to run drains+have an aggro strategy I would just play bomberman (which is probably one of the best decks ever at combining combo+control+aggro all in one) than tossing a random playset of goyfs into tezz.

[M.Solymossy]

which is probably one of the best decks ever at combining combo+control+aggro all in one

4Gush GAT wants to speak with you outside

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

which is probably one of the best decks ever at combining combo+control+aggro all in one

4Gush GAT wants to speak with you outside

That is why I said one of. Obviously I have to use bomberman as an example because 4-gush GAT doesn't exist at the moment.

Oh and since I've had some time to think more about goyf I've come to the conclusion that it is horrible in tezz. I would much rather run 4xPersonal Tutors since DSC is always as fast as goyf is at the very best (AKA 6 power goyf with your opponent casting vamp/thoughtsieze/2fetches=4 turns while PT->tinker->2colossus swings=4turns) and worst case scenario the 2 creatures have the same amount of raw hate that gets rid of them (goyf can be "destroyed"/gets small against Grunts/can be blocked/threads/etc. while DSC gets hit by artifact hate). In addition to that PT can dig you out of bad situations by finding the right sorcery (aka Will) while goyf forces a color splash and opens you up to wasteland if you want to cast it. Oh and I suppose PT can always let you grab ancestral off a tutor chain or if you have key or vault in hand it grabs the other allowing you to win instantly compared to the 4-5 turns it takes goyf. Personal Tutor is seriously looking way better lol. :/

[Tha Gunslinga]

Oh and since I've had some time to think more about goyf I've come to the conclusion that it is horrible in tezz. I would much rather run 4xPersonal Tutors since DSC is always as fast as goyf is at the very best

Personal Tutor is card disadvantage, which you probably don't want.

As far as DSC vs Goyf, Personal Tutor for Tinker for DSC (or Inkwell, which I would run over DSC as it, you know, can't be targeted), it's certainly a better play to draw and play a Tarmogoyf (card parity) than to Personal Tutor for Tinker (-1 card), then Tinker out a guy (-1 card).  DSC can just be bounced or Plowed, and while I love Inkwell, it's barely faster than Tarmogoyf.  Yes, Tarmogoyf can be bounced or Plowed as well, but you'll have 4 of them, so you can find more easily, and you can recast it if it's bounced.

[Diakonov]

Oh and since I've had some time to think more about goyf I've come to the conclusion that it is horrible in tezz. I would much rather run 4xPersonal Tutors since DSC is always as fast as goyf is at the very best (AKA 6 power goyf with your opponent casting vamp/thoughtsieze/2fetches=4 turns while PT->tinker->2colossus swings=4turns) and worst case scenario the 2 creatures have the same amount of raw hate that gets rid of them (goyf can be "destroyed"/gets small against Grunts/can be blocked/threads/etc. while DSC gets hit by artifact hate). In addition to that PT can dig you out of bad situations by finding the right sorcery (aka Will) while goyf forces a color splash and opens you up to wasteland if you want to cast it. Oh and I suppose PT can always let you grab ancestral off a tutor chain or if you have key or vault in hand it grabs the other allowing you to win instantly compared to the 4-5 turns it takes goyf. Personal Tutor is seriously looking way better lol. :/

Goyf is not horrible in Tezz.  I'm not about to declare that it is the best board option, either, but it certainly is not horrible.  Keep in mind, its primary function in the Tezz board is to block fishies (at least the way I would design the board), and it would be tough to argue that it doesn't do a good job at that.  Whether or not a Fish deck would decide to board in creature hate against you is questionable, and in any case it wouldn't make much of a difference what type of creature you have (unless they use threads, I suppose).  Realistically, Goyf doesn't force a color splash.  Most people are running a minimum of 3 colors in Tezz these days, and many choose green for other reasons. 

Grunt can sometimes be good against opposing Goyfs, but overall he is still a somewhat unreliable permanent.  If the graves run low, he just dies.  That sucks.  In Fish he is alright because you plan on ending the game before that happens, or the opponent will be forced to act somehow which means playing spells, filling the grave.

Addressing the recent post, 4x Personal Tutor?  I'm not so sure about that man....  sorceries?  On top of your library?  At sorcery speed?

I can't get behind that

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Oh and since I've had some time to think more about goyf I've come to the conclusion that it is horrible in tezz. I would much rather run 4xPersonal Tutors since DSC is always as fast as goyf is at the very best (AKA 6 power goyf with your opponent casting vamp/thoughtsieze/2fetches=4 turns while PT->tinker->2colossus swings=4turns) and worst case scenario the 2 creatures have the same amount of raw hate that gets rid of them (goyf can be "destroyed"/gets small against Grunts/can be blocked/threads/etc. while DSC gets hit by artifact hate). In addition to that PT can dig you out of bad situations by finding the right sorcery (aka Will) while goyf forces a color splash and opens you up to wasteland if you want to cast it. Oh and I suppose PT can always let you grab ancestral off a tutor chain or if you have key or vault in hand it grabs the other allowing you to win instantly compared to the 4-5 turns it takes goyf. Personal Tutor is seriously looking way better lol. :/

Goyf is not horrible in Tezz.  I'm not about to declare that it is the best board option, either, but it certainly is not horrible.  Keep in mind, its primary function in the Tezz board is to block fishies (at least the way I would design the board), and it would be tough to argue that it doesn't do a good job at that.  Whether or not a Fish deck would decide to board in creature hate against you is questionable, and in any case it wouldn't make much of a difference what type of creature you have (unless they use threads, I suppose).  Realistically, Goyf doesn't force a color splash.  Most people are running a minimum of 3 colors in Tezz these days, and many choose green for other reasons. 

Grunt can sometimes be good against opposing Goyfs, but overall he is still a somewhat unreliable permanent.  If the graves run low, he just dies.  That sucks.  In Fish he is alright because you plan on ending the game before that happens, or the opponent will be forced to act somehow which means playing spells, filling the grave.

Addressing the recent post, 4x Personal Tutor?  I'm not so sure about that man....  sorceries?  On top of your library?  At sorcery speed?

I can't get behind that

Personal->tinker->DSC beats is just as fast as goyf when goyf is at maximum size with your opponent hurting himself and it doesn't depend on the graveyard. If you want a raw beater DSC beats goyf in almost every respect overall and personal tutor can also find you Will late game and give you an insane comeback or dig for a second combo piece. Tarmogoyf does none of that so there is almost no reason to run 4xgoyf instead of 4xPersonal Tutor in tezz. In addition to that yes goyf does force a color splash since if you want to run goyf you have to run green. I'm not saying you don't run other things but you can't take a random tezz list and slam in 4xgoyf you need to rework the mana base as well. Finally on Grunt I know that if the grave dies he dies which is why I don't think tezz should be running just any random fat. I was just saying that I would rather see a Grunt in my hand than a goyf 9/10 times especially in this increasingly fast format where casting ancestral twice or stalling ichorid an extra 2 turns is more significant than a random dude.

[zeus-online]

Æthersworn cannonist - One of the very best white cards in vintage...Best SB card against combo EVER

Cannonist is great against combo, but really if you want an effect like that you would be much better off with Arcane Lab anyway.  Combo can still play their moxen through Cannonist, and being an artifact himself makes him vulnerable to more than half of their bounce.

I think you are very much mistaken.... is just so much better then  against combo...If i where to board anything in against combo i'd make dead sure that i can actually cast it in time (turn 1 is preferable...turn 2 is rather slow)

If i where to board a card in against combo, and i was playing white, i'd definetly add cannonist.

The only exception to this rule is the "General usefullness" of say duress over cannonist...since duress works against control aswell.

You ARE right that my suggestions where more "if i had to"...i did try the white splash, but came to the conclusion that the green one was better.

/Zeus

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Oh and since I've had some time to think more about goyf I've come to the conclusion that it is horrible in tezz. I would much rather run 4xPersonal Tutors since DSC is always as fast as goyf is at the very best

Personal Tutor is card disadvantage, which you probably don't want.

As far as DSC vs Goyf, Personal Tutor for Tinker for DSC (or Inkwell, which I would run over DSC as it, you know, can't be targeted), it's certainly a better play to draw and play a Tarmogoyf (card parity) than to Personal Tutor for Tinker (-1 card), then Tinker out a guy (-1 card).  DSC can just be bounced or Plowed, and while I love Inkwell, it's barely faster than Tarmogoyf.  Yes, Tarmogoyf can be bounced or Plowed as well, but you'll have 4 of them, so you can find more easily, and you can recast it if it's bounced.

Well early game Inkwell will likely be much bigger and late game personal->will is likely stronger than goyf. I wouldn't run personal tutor in tezz any more than I'd run goyf but if I was forced between the 2 I would likely opt for Personal simply because it is never a dead card and worst case scenario pitches to FoW. Should I run fat just for the sake of being fat tinker is the best bang for my buck. I wouldn't find it unlikely that in the first 2-3 turns goyf would be a 3/4 or 4/5 in a deck like tezz unless your opponent is really diverse and running out stuff into his GY or something. The only matchup where the card disadvantage should be a huge tradeoff is in the drain mirror and in that case you're not obligated to cast it early or you can PT->Merchant/Demonic->Ancestral to fill your GY with Will goodness for when you topdeck another PT or will or other tutor. Rather than just throw goyfs in I would rather have a bigger creature+Will+combo piece+answer. Note that I'm not advocating running PT since I think niether card is worth running.