Optimizing Tezzeret

[Bongo]

Most of the Tezzeret talk revolves around restrictions and unrestrictions, but not around the deck itself.
I'd like to have a discussion about card choices, color splashes and sideboard strategies, no B&R stuff please.


1. What splash colours do you use in you Tezzeret build? Green? Red? White? All of them?

2. What's the reason you chose your particular colour configuration? What advantages do you see over other configurations?

3. What's your sideboard?

4. What's your SB plan? What cards were you happy with, what cards are you going to replace? Basically any in-depth information about the SB would be appreciated.

5. If you have unusual choices (IntuAK, Welder main, etc) that distinguishes your deck from the "composite Tezzeret list", why did you run those cards? How did they perform?

[reaperbong]

Good thread, I've been waiting for some positive discussion on Tez.

For my deck I keep it mostly blue with a splash of black for Yawg's will, DT, VT and 3x Thoughtsieze. Wastelands run rampant where I play and are maindecked more then not so I need to be able to play the entire game off basic lands (I usually fetch for a basic the first 2 or even 3 Fetch plays). Also I play no proxies (Europe) and so am missing the off color Moxes as I don't own them. I've actually found it to be an ideal manabase just replacing the extra moxen with 3 powerful lands with extra abilities and running a Lotus Petal. it looks like this:

4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
3x Island
1x Swamp
1x Flooded Strand
1x Tolarian Academy
1x Academy Ruins
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Strip Mine
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring

Red decks in my meta game are a huge headache for me. Goblins everywhere and also R/G beats (probably soon to be Christmas Beats) and even Burn decks. Also TPS, Grim Long, Painter's and Ichorid are not uncommon as well as Oath can be a real bitch. My current sideboard looks something like this:

4x Hydroblast
2x Blue Elemental Blast
3x Tormod's Crypt
1x Hurkyll's Recall
1x Extirpate
4x Spell Snare

The first 3 cards are obvious given the above stated. I run 1 Tormod's Crypt maindecked, also I run 1 Hurkyll's Recall maindecked along with a Echoing Truth so i need 1 extra sometimes for Chalice, Rod and Pithing Needle. I would like to Sideboard more Extirpates and occasionally add 1 or 2. Such a great card for any occasion. Spell Snare is for Oath, Null Rod and Painter's as well as it grabs a Mana Drain on the occasional mirror match. Well this is just a brief, you can pretty much guess the rest of my deck, I run two Tezzeret's and the rest is the standard package. Tez players let's discuss 

P.S. EDIT: I really wanted to try Jester's Cap in my sideboard for a while but found it too slow due to the 6 colorless needed. Also I frequently was testing 2x Maze of Ith, 1 maindecked in place of the Crypt. It's a wonderful card to protect Tez and for pure pwnage against DSC, Wasteland is a big problem for it though especially since it can't be countered there is not a way to protect the Maze.

[zeus-online]

Well, might aswell post my list:

Mana: (25)
9 Artifact mana (vault, crypt, solomoxen)
1 LoA
1 Academy
2 Underground sea
2 Tropical island
6 Fetch
4 Island

Disruption: (12)
4 Force of will
4 Mana drain
3 Negate
1 Misdirection

Draw/Search: (13)
4 Thirst for knowledge
2 Sensei's top
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral recall
1 Merchant scroll
1 Vampiric tutor
1 Demonic tutor
1 Fact or fiction
1 Deep analysis

Broken stuff that dosn't fit into the other categories: (4)
1 Yawgmoth's will
1 Time walk
1 Tinker
1 Regrowth

Win: (4)
1 Darksteel collosus
1 Tezzeret, the seeker
1 Voltaic key
1 Time vault

Utility: (2)
1 Engineered explosives
1 Echoing truth

Sideboard: (15)
3 Yixlid jailer
3 Pithing needle
3 Duress
3 Seal of primordium
2 Threads of disloyality
1 The abyss

Notes on the maindeck:
Green for regrowth and sideboard options - Regrowth has won me atleast 2 games all by itself...one where it got me demonic back which allowed me to go infinite....And i was dead the next turn to akroma and hellkite...lucky me!
The other game was one where my academy got wasted, so i regrowted it and my hand was stacked with card-draw..i won easily after that.
For the sideboard the only green cards are the seal's atm...But i'm considering Goyf's as fish is quite strong imo.

Engineered explosives has also been amazing, i've even won a few games versus combo by blowing up their acceleration, and against oath just by having it set at two (seemed to slow the deck down quite a bit).

I changed around a few cards a little while ago:
-1 Gifts
-1 Ponder
-1 Mystical tutor
I added:
+1 Sensei's top
+1 Deep analysis
+1 Regrowth

I made these changes after i noticed how i never got around to actually using the mystical tutor or the gifts...There always seemed to be a better play. And the ponder was cut for the top 'cause of the synergi with thirsts and it's all over quite usefull...i've had top/key a few times (cute trick)
Deep analysis was added because of thirst...but in actual games i've almost always hardcast it instead, that said i've won almost every single game where i hardcasted it.
Mystical tutor was pretty bad, atleast for me...it can't find the combo and finding ancestral seems a bit weak (-2 cards, +3 cards...waste of time, might aswell cast thirst.)

Negate/Misdirection:
I feel that negate's works better for the deck then duress does, don't get my wrong i love duress (See my sideboard) But i just feel that for game1's i'd rather have the negates since they're good against shops, combo and control mirrors...And they don't open me up to wastelands.

Tez himself:
Haven't actually used him much, but i like the fact that if my dsc is somehow removed i can just use tez when i'm going infinite.

Now...for the sideboard:
I've mostly got cards that are useful against multiple decks...pithing needle is mostly for ichorid but it's also useful for shutting down welders and gorilla shamans (and ofcourse a ton of other cards)
Duress is mostly for combo, which would up my disruption count to 14 (MisD goes out) but it can also be usefull against control decks, although i haven't felt the need yet.
Seal of primordium is really good right now imo...U/W fish runs null rod's and cannonist's (well maybe not after sideboard..but still)
Oath runs...oath...Shops have too many targets to name...Control decks wins with artifacts - Generally speaking, it's usefull against almost everything, but i obv. don't SB it in against everything.
Threads/The abyss...For the fish match-up, I used to run old men, but they're incapable of dealing with tarmogoyf and jotun grunt so i switched for threads...and the abyss was mostly because it's been lying around in my binder, so i thought that i might aswell test it out.
Jailers - Ichorid.

I've really considered going for a red splash instead since gorilla shaman is just amazing, i've also considered re-adding gifts since it really should be amazing...but other then that i'm pretty happy with the build.

/Zeus

[reaperbong]

^^^^^
to compare/contrast the above list...

Gifts is definately an auto-include for me. Every time i've been able to cast i've won the game next turn. How can you run Fact over Gifts?? I don't run Sensei's, I tested one but it was always a dead draw or too mana intensive to use correctly. I like the trick with Key though, might reconsider 1.

I also cut Deep Analyis for a Ponder, I like Ponder better because at 1 blue mana it's faster and with two blue i can cast it and still keep a Hydroblast/BEB or Spell Snare open.

Mystical Tutor is another essential auto-include for me, it's won me a fair share of games grabbing Tinker. I'm surprised you don't mention grabbing Tinker with it as I would rarely go for Ancestral over Tinker.

I run 1 Misdirection and 3 Thoughtsieze instead of the Negates you have. Zeus-online, I'm interested more on why you don't run Duress effects instead of Negate. Are you cutting the Negates for the Duress' in your sideboard? If so in what situation? And why Negate over Spell Snare or Mana Leak? And why Duress over Thoughtsieze? Creatures tend to cause my biggest problems nowadays..

To anyone else, if I want to splash green for 1 Regrowth and Seal of Primordium in the Sideboard, how should i adjust the Mana base? Just 1 Tropical Island instead of a Sea I would guess but isn't that too vulnerable? I'm trying to figure a way to run Regrowth but I'm not seeing it...

If I could name one card I would like to fit into the maindeck it would be Street Wraith...

My full maindeck list btw:

Mana:

4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
3x Island
1x Swamp
1x Flooded Strand
1x Tolarian Academy
1x Academy Ruins
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Strip Mine
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Jet
1x Black Lotus
1x Lotus Petal
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring

Win:

2x Tezzeret the Seeker
1x Time Vault
1x Voltaic Key
1x Tinker
1x DSC

Support/Disrupt:

4x Force of Will
4x Mana Drain
1x Misdirection
3x Thoughtsieze
1x Ancestral Recall
4x Thirst for Knowledge
1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
1x Gifts Ungiven
1x Fact or Fiction
3x Tutor (MT, VT, DT)
1x Time Walk
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Echoing Truth
1x Hurkyll's Recall

I can't think of the last card right now lol...

[Troy_Costisick]

I can't think of the last card right now lol...

Just to throw out an idea, have you considered Wipe Away or Extirpate?  They'd both be good in a mirror match, and each hoses a particular deck that you would likely see at a large tournament.  I don't know.  I'm jus a really big fan of Split-second, though.

Peace,

-Troy

[reaperbong]

I love Split-Second as well. I run 3x Trickbind in my Stifle-Noughts build and it's killer, people actually wait to counter the Stifle when I have 1U open, it's hilarious. Extirpate is a favorite of mine and I keep one in the sideboard, just might start running a 1-off in my Main.

Also for Zues-Online, any reason you don't run Hurkyll's Recall? Seems optimal for me in your deck.

[zeus-online]

I haven't missed mystical tutor at all, this may be because i've played an endless amount of control mirrors lately.

Your list is missing merchant scroll? To me that's an auto-include..It fetches Fow vs. combo and ancestral versus almost anything else.

Against combo i'd never cut negates...they're really good....Allows me to do Land, mox, negate.

Lets compare them to the other options:
Duress/Thoughtseize - Good against some control decks, awesome against combo, sucks versus fish (Thoughtseize is a little better) and shops.
Mana leak - Great early game, but not that good later on...It's decent versus fish though (Negate isn't, just another counter for null rod)
Spell snare - Urh, too limited for my taste...It's great in legacy, but this is vintage.
Negate - Good versus combo and control...Sucks versus fish...Decent against shops (Not too great against juggernaut or the like, but against lock-components)

Against combo i'd go (depends on which combo deck. obv)
-1 Tezzeret
-1 Misdirection
-1 Engineered explosives
+3 Duress

This way i got:
4 FoW
4 Drain
3 Negate
3 Duress

Gives me a fair chance of casting 1 disrupt spell every turn for the first 3-4 turns. (After the first 4 turns the combo deck should have won or lost anyway)

Sensei's top has been pretty good, but i'm not really sure if the 2nd one is better then ponder would be. Sensei's top allows me to continue to make land drops, every fetch land becomes a "ponder" and it generally digs pretty fast through the deck. It's card-quality not quantity though.

Fact is better at generating card-advantage then gifts is, but as i said, i'm seriously considering adding it again.

I'm surprised to see that you're running 2 Tezzeret's? I almost never play the card since it's so expensive and it's sorcery speed.

Maybe it's about play style...i just play control until i get the combo, am forced to do something or see an opening...i never go for the quick win if i get a choice. (obv. i go for the combo if i got both pieces, but this has only happened once in the first turns)

Most of my games go:
Island, mox go
Fetch, go

Etc. Only doing something when i'm forced to or when i see an opening for one of my spells, always presenting counter-magic and never opening myself up to it. Sensei's top helps me continuing my land drops and digs for the counters...While my draw engine keeps my hand full (hopefully). I also try only to play islands until i need colored mana or have run out of fetchs and islands.
That is so easy to discover that it suggests conspicuousness or little need for perspicacity in the observer. after sideboard if i know my opponent isn't playing with nonbasic hate, i fetch duals first and islands later.

Why do you wish to play streetwraith by the way? Seems awful, i'd rather run a confidant or a skeletal scrying or something rather then pay 2 life, do nothing.

You are a bit short on islands, i'm guessing that your area is light on workshops and fish...I almost consider it suicide to run less then four islands main. Although the maindeck hurkyl's recall would indicate that your meta-game got a fair share of shop decks.

How often do you fetch a swamp? I've tried it in other drain decks and it always got in the way and never helped.
You're running (correct me if i'm wrong) 6 black spells, each costing a single black mana...why would you need a swamp for that?
Academy ruins also seems bad, since it dosn't produce   and i'm questioning how often you use it's ability...seems "cute" rather then good.

If you're interested in splashing you could cut 1 sea and the swamp for 2 volcanics or trops.
I tried running white for balance and sideboard options, but found neither of them to be worth it btw.
Red would be awesome for Gorilla shaman's main and red is in my opinion THE best SB color in Type1.
Green, well i already covered my opinion in my other post.

I know alot of people are running tormod's crypt main, but i have trouble seeing exactly what it's for since Will isn't as relevant as it was during the gifts or GAT era...The only deck it would do serious damage to would be ichorid, and 1 crypt is hardly enough.

I love Split-Second as well. I run 3x Trickbind in my Stifle-Noughts build and it's killer, people actually wait to counter the Stifle when I have 1U open, it's hilarious. Extirpate is a favorite of mine and I keep one in the sideboard, just might start running a 1-off in my Main.

Love extirpate aswell, just not sure if this is the time for it to shine...I loved it with cunning wish, since people would let it resolve and then their jaw would drop when i found extirpate.

Also for Zeus-Online, any reason you don't run Hurkyll's Recall? Seems optimal for me in your deck.

Lack of space mostly, i really like it though..I need further testing versus shops to decide if it's worth it. 4 islands and 6 fetch's along with 11 counterspells could be enough without needing additional bounce. One question though, why not rebuild instead? It cycles.

I hope i covered everything

/Zeus

[reaperbong]

haha you sure did. Indeed I forgot Merchant Scroll, it is in fact an auto-include for me.

I have a lot of mana hate in my meta and usually if I need 1 black mana I can't afford sacrificing a fetchland + Underground Sea only to cast a Thoughtseize and have the Sea get sacked by a Wasteland. I really need to keep my 1 land drop per turn and build tempo.

2x Tez works for me because the first one I draw usually gets pitched to FOW or TFK, and then It's easier to draw in to the one I need later or tutor it up rather then rely on Yawgmoth's Will. If I had just one I could see pitching it early game and then regretting it later.. You say though that you haven't actually played the Tezzeret much but for me I've been hardcasting it a lot. Having 2 makes it easier to be in the right place at the right time, I see it as kind of redundant if you have to tutor for it. I've had games like this:

turn: Island, tap: Mana Vault - go (holding FOW)
turn: fetch: Island tap tap tap: Tezzeret (holding FOW)

Funny how true some of your comments are though, i haven't even seen a Fish deck in a long while and Shops is virtually non-existant.

Might cut the Academy Ruins for another Island you might be right. For me it is my Regrowth, and you already stated how great Regrowth is. Admittadly though I haven't even played a game with it, just got mine last week so we'll see how it goes at our local Tourney tomorrow.

Spell Snare has saved my ass plenty of times. the casting cost alone makes it essential for me, but obvously it comes down to the local meta.

Last but not least, Street Wraith is the only card i can think of that is free card draw. Seems fantastic for me, I'm playing 4 in my Sui-black deck and lovin it. I couldn't care less about 2 life.

[Mith]

I've messed around with lists running both red and white splashes...and have yet to be impressed. Jimmy's list from the latest Xtreme Games tourney (http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37437.0) is pretty close to what I've found to be optimal. Here's the list for reference:

4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Regrowth
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Echoing Truth
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Brainstorm
1 Misdirection
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Pithing Needle
1 Voltaic Key
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Time Vault
1 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
3 Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus

The mana base is solid, the maindeck is pretty optimized, and the only real splash pre-board is for Regrowth...which is a must-have to combo out with Gifts. Green gives you Goyf and Krosan Grip for the board, which rounds out your capabilities quite well. While I've liked how streamlined the U/B version is...the Green splash is just too good not to include.

I agree that only one Tez is needed...he's slow, and comes out quite often.

If I were to splash Red in as well, I'd get Blasts as well as Grudges...which would be nice, but leave me with a much-less-stable mana base. With the amount of Wastes running around (not to mention Magus of the Moon), I prefer to have enough basic islands to float the deck.

Hurkyl's in the board is good stuff...and makes sure you can combo out when facing multiple chalice/rod/etc.

Jimmy runs Annul...which is an interesting choice. I'm still testing that one out.

[reaperbong]

I've been pretty happy with my Gifts Ungiven piles without Regrowth. I usually do Tez, Key, Yawgmoth's and Tinker. Sometimes I switch it up with Demonic Tutor which can be nasty... Is Regrowth really that essential? I definately don't see it as an auto-include because of Gifts. Academy Ruins is an on-color Regrowth, all you need is a card draw in which this deck isn't short on.

4 Duress effects is what is inspiring to me from the above list, I could surely cut the maindecked Tormod's for a 4th Thoughtsieze.

[Mith]

Considering how often I cut Tez...I wouldn't count on him for a Gifts target. I've won with Gifts quite often, and Regrowth has incredible applications in this deck.

[M.Solymossy]

Honestly, the most optimized builds I've played are UWG (McCarthy's build) or UWR (My ICBM Open build).

Jimmy's list was posted, but here's mine..


1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Black Lotus
1 Misdirection
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Thoughtseize
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
4 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Trinket Mage
1 Tinker
1 Sundering Titan
1 Echoing Truth
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
1 Snow-Covered Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Tolarian Academy

SB:
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Duress
1 Trinisphere
1 Rack and Ruin
1 Viashino Heretic
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Firespout
2 Sower of Temptation
2 Propaganda

[Bongo]

Thanks for all the lists.
After reading the replies, I've got a few questions:


1. Is Pithing Needle maindeck material? What are the most common targets G1?

2. Are Duress effects a must-play maindeck? Against decks running Wasteland, fetching out a dual seems risky.

3. What are your opinions on Libary of Alexandria in Tezzeret?

4. What's the best SB card against Oath (aside from Krosan Grip)?

5. Why Firespout over Pyroclasm?

6. What advantages does the green version have over the red version (and vice versa)?

[M.Solymossy]

Thanks for all the lists.
After reading the replies, I've got a few questions:


1. Is Pithing Needle maindeck material? What are the most common targets G1?

2. Are Duress effects a must-play maindeck? Against decks running Wasteland, fetching out a dual seems risky.

3. What are your opinions on Libary of Alexandria in Tezzeret?

4. What's the best SB card against Oath (aside from Krosan Grip)?

5. Why Firespout over Pyroclasm?

6. What advantages does the green version have over the red version (and vice versa)?

1)  I never liked Pithing Needle.  You will have to talk to Jimmy McCarthy about it.
2) I think they're metagame dependant.  I played a list without duresses, and won a sapphire.  However, thoughtseize/duress are the best cards right now against the mirror.
3) I never like Library in decks that run proactive control (duress)
4)  Your maindeck should be REALLY nuts against Oath.  If you're running Annul, you can board that in, but it's pretty narrow. 
5)  The off chance that you can get goyfs early, because of Wild Nacatl, and because of things like Esperzoa if it see's play.     And yes, I did blow up TWO 2/3 goyfs at the ICBM Open.

[LordHomerCat]

I've tried Explosives and Tormod's Crypt and stuff in the Needle slot and they were both pretty terrible.  So far I've like needle fine so it has stayed.  It is best against things like Goblin Welder, Bazaar, Karn/Mox Monkey and Wasteland.  I've named Voltaic Key before against the Reconstruction deck since they are so all-in on comboing, I've named aether vial, I've named all manner of random stuff.  Feel free to play something else there, same with the MisD slot, those are just what I've been happiest with lately.

Duress is insane and I have been adding more rather than less (the 4th maindeck was new this weekend).  It is really good in most of the hard matches (not Dredge).  I like Grip against Oath but you can't rely on Only grip, because if they hit Oath and Chalice zero early you won't be able to get grip active fast enough.  The annuls are new and were suggested by Demars, I have liked them a lot so far and they are actually really versatile (they come in against shops, oath, can come in against the mirror particularly on the play, etc.).  I board them in as much as anything else in my board actually.

I think Library is slow and awkward and win-more on the rare occasion it works.  I think Vintage has passed this card by, everyone has duress effects or wastelands or plays things that force you to interact like dudes and lock pieces, or they just win before it matters (like the mirror and TPS).  My manabase is tight as it is, I would like a 4th basic but am not comfortable cutting anything for it, so there's no way I would try to find a spot for a crappy colorless nonbasic.

Also, I like green more than red because I like the cards you get better.  Goyf is much better than Pyroclasm/Firespout and much more versatile, Grip is worse than grudge most of the time except against stupid Oath (which is really popular here), and REB isn't really necessary for anything.  Grudge is ridiculous for sure, but you have to go 4color for it, and it's the only Red card I actually want to play, vs. Grip and Goyf for green cards.  This makes it pretty much a no-brainer for me.

[Relique]

I have been playing Control Slaver for years and now switching over to Tezz since it seems to be my play style and a touch quicker.

I also like Negate, however, with Countersquall out there, I have been throwing around the idea of tossing it in.  Same effect with -2 life for a black instead of a colorless.  While the loss of life is negligible and in T-1... I have had the capability to throw a black out there in place of the colorless every time.  Is it worth it?  Obviously a poor choice if you are doing a tri-color build but for UB... would make sense IMO.

[LordHomerCat]

I have been playing Control Slaver for years and now switching over to Tezz since it seems to be my play style and a touch quicker.

I also like Negate, however, with Countersquall out there, I have been throwing around the idea of tossing it in.  Same effect with -2 life for a black instead of a colorless.  While the loss of life is negligible and in T-1... I have had the capability to throw a black out there in place of the colorless every time.  Is it worth it?  Obviously a poor choice if you are doing a tri-color build but for UB... would make sense IMO.

I would never ever do that.  2 Life doesn't matter, you win with either infinite turns or an 11/11.  You will never cast this card turn 1, whereas one of the biggest incentives to run negate is you can lead Land, Mox, Go and have a counter up.  There are literally zero advantages to running that card over Negate in this deck.

[Bongo]

I've tried Explosives and Tormod's Crypt and stuff in the Needle slot and they were both pretty terrible. 

But isn't Crypt crucial in the mirror and TPS to cut off Will in the lategame?
Explosives I can understand. Would you run Explosives in the SB in the future or cut it completely?

I'm definitely going to test Needle.


Why do you think that you don't need REB? I practically board it in against any base-blue deck.

[Relique]

I have been playing Control Slaver for years and now switching over to Tezz since it seems to be my play style and a touch quicker.

I also like Negate, however, with Countersquall out there, I have been throwing around the idea of tossing it in. Same effect with -2 life for a black instead of a colorless. While the loss of life is negligible and in T-1... I have had the capability to throw a black out there in place of the colorless every time.  Is it worth it?  Obviously a poor choice if you are doing a tri-color build but for UB... would make sense IMO.

I would never ever do that.  2 Life doesn't matter, you win with either infinite turns or an 11/11.  You will never cast this card turn 1, whereas one of the biggest incentives to run negate is you can lead Land, Mox, Go and have a counter up.  There are literally zero advantages to running that card over Negate in this deck.

Well, in the  build reaperbong mentioned only a mox Jet and a mox Sapphire was used. your lands are 4 deltas, 4 Underground Seas, 4 basics.  So... unless you get a basic land with same color Mox you would be fine in the situation you mentioned. I guess my thought process is -- in a build where producing the two colors needed for the card is producible with almost all mana combinations: why wouldn't you run it?  Does the difficulty producing a color vs colorless out weigh the chances for the slim victory?  I would think definitely run it if you are running Dark Confidants or some other utility/little beat stick.  I have found (course this is with my  deck) I was beating on opponents with mox monkeys and the like during control fights... 2-8 additional damage would have won me a few games.  Obviously if you are running Tri color or the like it would be a poor choice, or in Reaperbong's meta with the mana hate fetching a basic could pose an issue... of-course you would just fetch the opposing land to your mox.  The second drawback would be a lack of ability to play Manadrain on turn one as well if you only have two opposing mana sources.  Was just a thought, I will try it out at some point and see how it works.

[LordHomerCat]

I mean, its a fine card and I would play them if I played red.  But it's not like it really affects the matchup very heavily.  Grip and Tarmogoyf (in particular) are huge in the matchups they are intended for.  Goyf literally wins the game on his own against Shops and stuff a lot of the time.  REB is good but it doesnt really do anything you can't do already.  I haven't found myself losing a bunch of mirrors to the red version of the deck or anything, and I wouldn't want them very much against TPS anyway, so it's not like I really think you are missing much not playing REB.  Extra duresses are just as good.

[Bongo]

Sound argumentation. I'll try out the green splash.

What's your SB strategy against Fish, Goblins and similar aggro-control strategies? I've been having a lot of difficulties, and I don't think Goyf alone is enough.

[LordHomerCat]

Goblins can't really do anything that you care about.  You can just combo them out without much trouble, although they might have REB to annoy you.  Goyf there is just a huge wall that keeps them from actually killing you while you dig for your combo.

Against Fish, I'll bring in the goyfs and maybe a couple disenchant effects depending on how artifact heavy they are. I also have an EE in the board which comes in, but that card is pretty undershelming.  If you can keep Null Rod off the board, it isn't hard to just overpower them, so I might bring in some annuls on the play as well given how important Rod is.  Goyf actually can kill them here.  In null rod matchups, I often find myself just playing Goyf/Tinker aggrocontrol, trying to get some huge dude out and just protect him, because people have this tendency to bring in like a thousand pithing needles and grips and grudges and disenchants and crap like that.  Often playing a goyf and countering a couple spells is more than enough to kill them.

They can be tough matches, basically if the Fish deck is super-hateful and has like maindeck cursecatchers and trash like that which is awful against everyone but you, it is hard.  Luckily, those decks rarely are very successful because they are full of narrow junk and get reamed by everyone else.  If they are more generalized, your spells are a lot more powerful so as long as you dont get blown out by Null Rod it shouldn't be a big deal to just cast tinker or combo them out.

[zeus-online]

Thanks for all the lists.
After reading the replies, I've got a few questions:


1. Is Pithing Needle maindeck material? What are the most common targets G1?

2. Are Duress effects a must-play maindeck? Against decks running Wasteland, fetching out a dual seems risky.

3. What are your opinions on Libary of Alexandria in Tezzeret?

4. What's the best SB card against Oath (aside from Krosan Grip)?

5. Why Firespout over Pyroclasm?

6. What advantages does the green version have over the red version (and vice versa)?

1. I don't like needle main, i find it much better after board when you know what you're up against (Eventhough i almost always know what i'm playing against turn 2 or sooner)

2. Not a must play imo...They're good, but as i said earlier, i like negates better for various reasons.

3. I love LoA in almost all control decks, it has won me too many matches to cut it. I didn't want to go into this debate previously, and still feel that it's best to leave it alone: LoA has been argued over forever and ever...If you like it, run it! if you don't...well then don't use it.

4. Not sure what the best is...I like seal's 'cause they can be cast turn 1 a decent amount of the time...Although krosan grip's are obv. good aswell.

5. No idea, i'd rather run pyroclasm Although neither make the cut right now for me, because of the goyf and grunt (mostly Goyf) I'd much rather have threads, goyf's or something like that...Although against something like goblins pyroclasm would obv. be better.

6. Lets see...Gorilla shaman, superior artifact destruction, REBs vs. Better enchantment hate, Tarmogoyf, regrowth.
Gorilla shaman would be my primary reason to run red right now...Imo they're awesome right now.

/Zeus

[Grand Inquisitor]

1. What splash colours do you use in you Tezzeret build? Green? Red? White? All of them?

2. What's the reason you chose your particular colour configuration? What advantages do you see over other configurations?

3. What's your sideboard?

4. What's your SB plan? What cards were you happy with, what cards are you going to replace? Basically any in-depth information about the SB would be appreciated.

5. If you have unusual choices (IntuAK, Welder main, etc) that distinguishes your deck from the "composite Tezzeret list", why did you run those cards? How did they perform?
...

6. Is Pithing Needle maindeck material? What are the most common targets G1?

7. Are Duress effects a must-play maindeck? Against decks running Wasteland, fetching out a dual seems risky.

8. What are your opinions on Libary of Alexandria in Tezzeret?

9. What's the best SB card against Oath (aside from Krosan Grip)?

10. Why Firespout over Pyroclasm?

Caveat emptor, this is a minority opinion.

1) I find in general that the primary strategy for Tezzeret (by this I really mean Vault/Key combo- thanks Soly) is so monochromatic, that the list usually benefits from the power of lots of other colors.  I.e., unless your metagame is choco-block full of wastelands, null rods and magus, let the options fly.

2) I usually end up with a primarily Ub or Ur maindeck with a few tropicals on top to splash for the SB.  I've been tempted by white a few times, but so far I haven't seen a metagame that needed the services of canonist, revelation, mindcensor, swords, meddling mage compared with REB, heretic, grudge, tarmogoyf, root maze, etc.

3) Really depends and changes all the time.  My approach is to use excel to create a 75 card list with changes for all the decks I plan to see.  It's an optimization problem from there (including color selection).

4) This is really a long conversation.  Here are the ones I'm always considering first, depending on meta:

Tez- duress, reb
Combo- duress, commandeer
fish- darkblast, tarmogoyf, reb, dark confidant
shops- energy flux, heretic, oxidize, krosan grip

5) *warning, I've been pissing into the wind for years on this, intuition/AK is SO much better than Thirst For Knowledge.  Depending on the list, I've run both, but I'd never just go with 4x Thirst for Knowledge and crappy artifacts.

6) Only if you're running trinket mage.  Don't just run it as general utility or to fetch with Tez.  However, I've run trinket lists with and without needle, and right now I'd run a needle MD.

7) Outside Fow and 2x mana drain, nothing is required disruption maindeck.  That being said, most people eventually move past those 6 slots and I'd argue that duress/thoughtseize are almost always better than rebs/negate/etc.  They're pro-active, powerful and cheap.

8) Here's the dirty secret about LoA (noobs, tattoo this on your box of Wheaties): it beats good players.  There are the 25% of games where their hand is too good anyway, or they'll make you use your FoW.  The rest, LoA offers a unique line of play from the opening hand or by tutoring that often just forces good people to make bad decisions.  It's a no brainer for 1 slot and a land that still casts sol ring (which is f'n borken, btw).

9) If you're worried about Oath while playing Tez, you're really playing your deck wrong.  If they go 'fish' style with rods, etc, then they're playing into your hands and you should beat them control style.  If they're going ballz, you're more broken and faster in a race.  That being said, I don't mind packing a krosan grip just for S&G's.

10) I have no idea wtf you're talking about.  Mass removal vs fish hasn't been relevant since tarmogoyf was printed.  Get with the tinker/sower/threads/FTK/Oath/Swords or get your goddamn shine box.

[reaperbong]

I would just like to co-sign for LoA as well. The one time I've drawn into it early it was practically a zero costing Ancestral Recall that won me the game against Combo. If you own this card and play Control, I can't see how this isn't an auto-include. LoA is pure class.

Does anybody else run Academy Ruins? I swear I've seen this card in some decklists. Like I said this card for me is an on-color Regrowth, I can even see it as being part of a Gifts pile in certain situations. I will test it tonight (Friday Night Vintage Prague  ) and will inform. Of course for me running a third color is tough because of the heavy Wasteland meta so maybe it's only viable if you're running mono-blue or blue with a 1 color splash.

[Wollblad]

5) *warning, I've been pissing into the wind for years on this, intuition/AK is SO much better than Thirst For Knowledge.  Depending on the list, I've run both, but I'd never just go with 4x Thirst for Knowledge and crappy artifacts.

Finally someone that puts the finger on the main problem with Tezzeret decks: the card drawing engine. Many list packs random artifacts just to be able to use thirst for Knowledge. However AK/Intuition is kind of clumsy now when Brainstorm has been restricted and also a risky strategy with Extirpate lurking in each and every sideboard. I have still not found a suitable card drawing engine. I haven't however tested Night's Whisper or Skeletal Scrying which both could be complement to Fact or Fiction and Gifts Ungiven.

[reaperbong]

I think a heavier Black splash has some real potential. I have tested Night's Whisper,, I took out the Ponder and 1 Thoughtsieze for 2 Night's Whisper and I really liked it but ended up reversing the change when my Underground Seas kept getting Wastelanded. If only Wastelands would go away I'd probably run them again. I will probably need to start running Pithing Needle just to counter Wastelands.

Skeletal Scrying I haven't tested but this looks like a good possibility. True you have to pay 1 extra mana for the same effect as Night's Whisper but this card looks like a great way to dump extra artifact mana or Drain mana for some serious card draw like an Instant Necropotence at a colorless cost!

Also I'd love to run Tarmogoyf but without splashing a third color. What on-color beatstick options are possibly viable? Sea Drake anyone? Phyrexian Negator?

[zeus-online]

5) *warning, I've been pissing into the wind for years on this, intuition/AK is SO much better than Thirst For Knowledge.  Depending on the list, I've run both, but I'd never just go with 4x Thirst for Knowledge and crappy artifacts.

Finally someone that puts the finger on the main problem with Tezzeret decks: the card drawing engine. Many list packs random artifacts just to be able to use thirst for Knowledge. However AK/Intuition is kind of clumsy now when Brainstorm has been restricted and also a risky strategy with Extirpate lurking in each and every sideboard. I have still not found a suitable card drawing engine. I haven't however tested Night's Whisper or Skeletal Scrying which both could be complement to Fact or Fiction and Gifts Ungiven.

I've tried skeletal scrying, but was not satisfied with it in this deck....I simply couldn't grow my 'Yard quick enough.
As for intu/AK...I like that engine, but it takes waaay too many slots...and i'd probably wish to run a few more DA's if i did.

Here's the draw engine i used in the control deck i played before tez:
3 Intuition
3 Deep analysis
4 Accumulated knowledge
1 Ancestral recall
1 Demonic tutor
1 Mystical tutor
1 Merchant scroll

That's 14 slots, and i haven't even got Fact, gifts or vampiric in it.
I also played 3 cunning wish, but that's a different story.
My point being: It takes waaaay too many slots, but it IS quite powerfull.
I've considered Dark confidant, the problem being that if i go infinite, it might kill me :/

/Zeus

[BruiZar]

PLay confidant, use tez to tutor up top and win

[BruiZar]

I don't see how intuition / AK is going to win you the game. It's just too mana intensive and slow. You'll run into more relics/crypts/extirpates than you would care to see. If you're going to be so dependant on your graveyard, you might as well play ichorid