TPS players

[Marske]

I've been fairly comfortable with having some spot removal and sweepers against various fish builds for their creatures. The only thing you have to realize is what matters most in that matchup. Most fish builds want to stop you from developing your mana (Wastes, Strip, Null rod, Stifle and what not) so you have to fight that as best as possible (bring in the basics). You must not have the delusion that you'll be able to stop them from implementing this plan. They will do this eventually (because thats what the deck is made for) you can only delay them untill you're able to win.

I'm not sure if Seize is good against this matchup because the 2 life you take mean 2 less cards of Necro / Bargain if you can get them in play and could mean 2 less beats necessary for your opponent to win. Most creatures Fish plays are pests at best and only some deserve your attention (MM, True believer and the like) and you can't reliably grab them unless you run 4 seize (in your board it's a waste of space and maindeck Duress is almost always going to be better) Keeping in Hurkyls / rebuild or even upping artifact bounce can be a good plan when you expect them to have boarded in Canonists.

Going in quickly as stated above is a ok idea some times as long as fish doesn't run stuff like Daze, Cursecatcher, Force Spike or something because going to early could mean you don't have any mana open to pay for any possible additional costs, just beware of this.

Regarding Desire
As against any deck Desire is a Game win when you are able to cast it with +4 storm, same goes against Fish. They can't counter it and letting you pay 1 extra for the original copy is just stupid so it's a bomb I would not sideboard out.

My boarding plan would look something like this:

-2 off color mox /  1 Dual and 1 Off color Mox (depending on your splash if any and if they run Null rod) + 2 basics
-2 Cabal Ritual +2 spot removal
-1 Merchant Scroll +1 Sweeper

and possible additionaly:
-1 Jar (if they run Null rod) / Mystical (card disadvantage can be bad) / Grim tutor (life loss) / Misdirection  (possibly nothing to misdirect) +1 artifact Bounce

But as we don't know your decklist I'm just assuming you have all these cards in your deck / sideboard.

[XxtSundaybxX]

Desire is a great bomb, but to say that its so good against fish that you wouldnt sideboard it out is a little out of reach. We all know that desire is an all in bomb, otherwise there is no point in playing it. and personally when I am playing against fish and they have U up, i wouldnt throw desire out there assuming its uncounterable because a single stifle equals game over for you. Leaving Force of Will as protection for that stifle only weakens the desire because that two less cards to feed your desire. Minds Desire in this deck is not as strong as desire in straight long, where you can desire for 3 and flip the nuts.  This deck fizzles to desire far more than other long lists. All that being said, desire is insane. but anywhere after turn 2 it gets far weaker because theyre going to be tapping out to playing things like meddling mage or dark confidant, etc in the first few turns.

I agree with your sideboarding plan, although i strongly dislike memory jar in the deck even if null rod isnt in the format at all. Draw 7s are so hit or miss in this deck. I prefer thrashing wumpus mostly because it kills everything but grunt and goyf, and its a win condition. I usually avoid the tendirls plan against fish type decks because all the hate they bring in is directed towards tendrils as well as all of the maindeck hate they already have. boarding in creatures is the way to go, ie goyf or wumpus.

[hitman]

I agree with your sideboarding plan, although i strongly dislike memory jar in the deck even if null rod isnt in the format at all. Draw 7s are so hit or miss in this deck.

Memory Jar is the best draw 7 ever printed and is much more abusable than the other draw 7s.  When played correctly, it's rarely random and rarely is there parity.  Any tutor and Jar is usually a win.  A Duress that's followed up with a popped Jar without passing priority means you can go off unmolested.  Even a card like Ponder responded by with Jar equals you seeing 10 cards to your opponent's seven.  Jar is one of the best bombs in the deck and hardly comparable to the other draw 7s. 

[XxtSundaybxX]

Jar is the best draw 7 in the deck in the sense that your opponent doesnt get to keep the 7 cards he/she sees, I will agree with you there. I dont think any draw 7s belong in the deck other than twister only because its a reset. Its insane when you go turn 1 twister on the play, putting you way ahead in resources. And any tutor and jar is not always a win. Also the best time to pop jar is on your upkeep so you get to see an extra card along with all of the extra cards you will see from draw spells. Sure jar is awsome when you crack it on the stack with grim tutor, but your saying your going to wait till you draw a tutor or a duress just to pop jar?? Of course your not.  Also other than the card you tutor for when jar is on the stack, how is it not random? You arent going to know what those 7 cards are...you might have to explain this one to me

[hitman]

Jar is the best draw 7 in the deck in the sense that your opponent doesnt get to keep the 7 cards he/she sees, I will agree with you there. I dont think any draw 7s belong in the deck other than twister only because its a reset. Its insane when you go turn 1 twister on the play, putting you way ahead in resources. And any tutor and jar is not always a win. Also the best time to pop jar is on your upkeep so you get to see an extra card along with all of the extra cards you will see from draw spells. Sure jar is awsome when you crack it on the stack with grim tutor, but your saying your going to wait till you draw a tutor or a duress just to pop jar?? Of course your not.  Also other than the card you tutor for when jar is on the stack, how is it not random? You arent going to know what those 7 cards are...you might have to explain this one to me

There is no "best" time to pop Jar.  That's completely dependent on what resources you have available.  Popping Jar on your upkeep is a very generic play and only sees you one more card than your opponent.  There are several more powerful plays in TPS for Memory Jar than that.  I guess you can't have any Duress, Ponder/Brainstorm/Recall, tutor or similar effect with Jar on a regular basis in a deck chock full of them.  The card is exceptional in TPS in the early game to set up your mana and subsequent plays and exceptional in the later parts of a game to win.  There aren't that many cards in the deck with a more powerful effect in the context of Storm combo.

If by random, you're saying that the cards you net off a Memory Jar are unknown then how are any of the other bombs, outside of tutors, any less random?  Are you talking about flipping cards to Mind's Desire being less random?  Or cards gained off Bargain/Necro?  Without comboing with tutors, the TPS engines are random in a sense.  You're making calculated decisions based on likelihood of drawing what you need in any given situation.  That doesn't mean that you're just throwing your hands up in the air and hoping for the best.  Every line of play in TPS take calculated risks.  I would hardly call that random.  A resolved Memory Jar is a stronger effect than Ancestral Recall, Fact or Fiction, Ponder or Brainstorm offer. 

[XxtSundaybxX]

I already agreed with you that there are more powerful plays than popping jar on your upkeep. But if by "chock full of them" you mean 4 duress and 1-2 grim tutors, then yes the deck is chock full of them. Comparing the "randomness" of draw 7's(jar) compared to the "randomness" of bargain or necro is slightly different and I'm pretty sure you know that. Bargain and necro let you see X cards(yes at random) but the likleyhood of a path to victory is significantly larger than with memory jar. If you sit here and tell me that you have popped jar and never fizzled with it, then you A) havent been playing the deck very long or B) are the luckiest TPS player around. Majority of the time memory jar sees play will be through tinker. And I really dont think its worth it to use a tutor to find tinker, sacrafice a mox, and then the actual jar to "hopefully" win the game. Dont get me wrong when I won a Lotus with the deck I played jar, but it was the single worst bomb in the deck and I cut it after that tournament. Did I win games because of Jar? sure I did. But I also could have tinkered for DSC and won just the same(on a will turn so opponent couldnt weld out,no cards in hand, and i had force back up). And using jar to get ahead in resources and set up for a later win with you graveyard just seems suboptimal, there are better ways to do that. With so many decks packing so many draw spells and tutors, finding a bounce spell for the jar was fairly easy to do so letting it sit on the table till your next turn to go off is very risky.

[Ruven]

@ marske: thanks for the help. But one thing I don't quite get: Why do you board out Cabal Rituals when you know you're up against mana denial? Wouldn't they help a lot (especially asuming you don't have that much mana available anyway) to get something bigger into play (like Bargain/Necro or even to pay for Gifts or something)?

btw my list looks like this for the moment

4Mox
1 Lotus
1 Petal
1 Mana Cryot
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Island
2 Swamp

--
22

4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual

--
5

4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
4 Duress

--
9

1 Timetwister
1 Yawgmoths Will
1 Necro
1 Bargain
1 Mind's Desire
1 Tendrils
1 Tinker
1 Jar
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Time Walk

---
10

1 Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
3 Telling Time
1 Mystical
1 Vampiric
1 Demonic
1 Imperial Seal
1 Grim Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Rebuild
1 Chain of Vapor

---
15

SB
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Tormods Crypt
3 Jailer
2 Needle
1 Extirpate
2 Hurkyls
3 Fishslots (still havent decided but probably go with 1 Infest, 1-2 Slaughter Pact, 0-1 Chain of Echoing Truth)

[Marske]

@Ruven,
Good question, I'll try to explain my logic in doing so.

Cabal Ritual, is a great card but your weakest ritual in that match up. If you don't expect them to have boarded in Canonist (which all fish decks probably should be doing if they run white) then boarding out Hurkyl's instead of a C. Rit is fine too. I've been pretty content with the board plan I mentioned above because I don't want to cut down on bombs (they only run so many counters that actually work against us) and cutting down on tutors seems even more silly.

I choose to cut the imo weakest parts of the deck against that match up in favor of possible solutions against them, this may or may not be "right" but I've had success with this strategy in the past and during testing.

Leaving Force of Will as protection for that stifle only weakens the desire because that two less cards to feed your desire.

I'm not sure what you mean here, lets see if I got this right. Sure the FoW + random blue card could mean the random blue card could have been played instead of held back for FoW backup in fear of stilfe and potentially up the storm count. But like all bombs in TPS, Desire requires some setup (likely the most of all bombs) and I don't mean only getting the mana.

If I play against a fish deck and my plan would be playing desire for the win and they have U up it would mean I would have to Duress them before throwing that desire out there (which ups the storm counts and still lets you have FoW backup or that random blue card being played to up the storm) If I'm not able to do that Desire probably isn't the right path to victory at that point and still needs some setup.

I haven't lost to my opponent having stifle in ages, because fighting over a duress only ups the storm count more and likely means they also need to FoW (Thus requiring a blue card, FoW and stifle) remember you're probably planning this desire for more then a single turn, it's not like you rip it of the top and just decide to throw it on the stack. Same goes for Tendrils getting stifled... both things just mean poor preparation from the TPS player (a misplay in my book)

[XxtSundaybxX]

Personally when Im playing against fish, Desire is never my path to victory. There are so many better bombs that will get you there with out needing all the protection due to fish playing annoying cards. IE cannonist,stifle,daze etc. Sure Desire takes setting up much like tendrils but if your going to go all the work to set it up why not just set up a better win, like say yawgwill? or  bargain?  I havent lost to a stifle in ages either but that doesnt mean that your game plan should be desire just because you havent lost to a stifle. There are alot of things that determine the fish matchup. I feel that meddling mage is the biggest misplay by fish players. Most do not name the correct card, they will  name tendrils or yawgmoths will. Also our board plan is much different, I run the man plan. So my bomb density doesnt need to be as high but regardless I still think Desire is a weak bomb against fish. Desire is most useful against decks packing alot of counters because we all know it gets around those counters. But you said yourself fish doesnt play that many counters that affect us anyway.

[Marske]

@XxtSundaybxX,
I never said my gameplan against fish was Desire, I only said it was still a viable path to victory and one that can be effective if need be. I think you misunderstood what I meant to say. I usually don't sideboard out bombs, why would you throw away possible lines of play because they are difficult to achieve in a certain match up ? Like I said desire is probably the most difficult bomb to setup effectively in TPS, so you could make an argument for cutting it entirely if you follow the logic you purpose.

There are so many better bombs that will get you there with out needing all the protection due to fish playing annoying cards. IE cannonist,stifle,daze etc.

The only card that affects desire in the list you mentioned is going to be stifle. Canonist effectively shuts down your entire deck barring Tinker - Robot and cards like Daze and Cursecatcher are pests at best but when you know how to play around them it's nothing more then that. As stated before, stifle is truly a non-issue as far as I'm concerned because you should be prepared and able to play around it against fish anyway because your main kill can be stifled.

I feel that meddling mage is the biggest misplay by fish players. Most do not name the correct card, they will  name tendrils or yawgmoths will. Also our board plan is much different, I run the man plan. So my bomb density doesnt need to be as high but regardless I still think Desire is a weak bomb against fish. Desire is most useful against decks packing alot of counters because we all know it gets around those counters. But you said yourself fish doesnt play that many counters that affect us anyway.

Besides running imho sub-par cards like Wumpus, no man plan effectively deals with fish since the printing of Tarmogoyf and Jotun Grunt. They will be better equipped to deal with the few guys you'll bring in then you and you'll do nothing to negate the threads that really matter (the mana denial they bring to the table) by boarding in dudes. You are right that Desire is a weak bomb, but it's still a bomb.

Oh there is one sentence in your reply I actually wanted to ask you a question about:

Also our board plan is much different, I run the man plan. So my bomb density doesnt need to be as high

What category do you rank your "manplan" or your dudes then ? Solutions ?

By boarding out stuff like Desire and replacing them for solutions you're breaking a ratio few players even consider when boarding with TPS namely the Bomb, Solution, Tutor balance TPS needs to really function like you want it to. Your boarding to a "bad" aggro deck against a deck thats created to deal with light manabases (you still run 12-14 lands post board) and already is in great shape to take out your deck game one (stopping storm is something Fish is good at) and they will only amplify their hate cards targeted at you. Lets say that in a worst case scenario you lose game 1 vs them and board in your dudes and win game 2 then game three they'll just board some creature hate back in (if they boarded it out in the first place) and take care of you then.

I've really done countless hours of testing with this deck and dedicated a lot of time in learning how to master it and create a board which feels suited enough to deal with the threats you'd most likely face during a tournament and I still review it every time I play this deck at a event. I've even placed in a top 8 with a man plan sideboard. I've come to dislike the strategy a lot because really TPS isn't capable of supporting it the way you need it to work most of the time.

[XxtSundaybxX]

By man plan i mean i play:
3x Tarmogoyf
2-3x Thrashing Wumpus

You say thrashing wumpus is sub par but its a massacre on a stick, how is that subpar? Now if you think the whole man plan deal is subpar then okay I can see why you think its subpar. But other than goyf I dont think theres  better choice, considering he can be cast off rituals. I just dont understand, you are telling me this sideboarding strategy is weak and your talking to me like I have never done well with the deck. Ive top 8d several times and I also won a huge lotus tourney with the deck. Im not sure if Ive ever top 8d without the man plan and that mostly because my meta is filled with fish style decks and since thats tps' worst matchup, why not just beat it.

I also use this same board plan for shops, works every time. Goyf>Juggs All day.

[Marske]

I just dont understand, you are telling me this sideboarding strategy is weak and your talking to me like I have never done well with the deck. Ive top 8d several times and I also won a huge lotus tourney with the deck. Im not sure if Ive ever top 8d without the man plan and that mostly because my meta is filled with fish style decks and since thats tps' worst matchup, why not just beat it.

I know for a fact that other people also abandoned the man plan for the same reasons I did and Steve even wrote about it in one of his TPS articles, I'm not trying to tell you what you need to do nor do I doubt any claims you make in doing well with the deck. I have no way of knowing this, I'm not doing a background check on every TMD poster and as far as I know I have no indication to who you actually are IRL.

I'm just trying to explain what my opinion is and what my experiences with the deck are. I'm European (as you could have read like everywhere on these boards) and the European meta is packed with "fish" style decks and shops and I've found out that the strategy I apply seems to work well or even better then when I had the manplan. Now you can choose to believe me or not I don't really care about that I'm merely stating an opinion and my findings which you can ignore if you like. We apparently have 2 different views and aproaches to playing and building TPS, which is fine by me.

For the record; I think Staxx (the European 9sphere.dec) is TPS actuall "worst" matchup and Ichorid / Fish the second worst matchups.

PS: If you don't believe me you're obviously free to ignore me and the qoute I'm posting next but I do think this is one of the better articles I've ever read about TPS.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/17250_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Mastering_The_Perfect_Storm_HighLevel_Tips_for_Winning_With_TPS.html

This is also the reason why most TPS players do not understand how to sideboard. I, too, fell into the trap of sideboarding in cards like Tarmogoyf/Phyrexian Negator and stuff like Dark Confidant for Workshop matches, and the like. Too many TPS pilots get caught up in tactical fights instead of taking the broader view. They, as I once did, look at Tarmogoyf and think that that is a trump to Workshop prison strategies, especially those with Thorn of Amethyst. They also see that as a way to beat Fish decks. Alternatively, some TPS pilots brings in more creature removal or run cards like Rack ad Ruin. This is a focus on tactics, and not on what is important.

[XxtSundaybxX]

You are absolutely correct that you are entitled to your opinion, and Im not trying to tell you that you arent. We do obviously see differently on the sideboarding subject.

As far as ignoring you goes, I dont need to ignore you because you are showing me a quote from steve that says that tps players with the man plan are sideboarding wrong. Im not going to go back and reread all of my posts so dont quote me but I dont think I said my sideboard was better than yours, I just think it makes those bad matchups easier to win and it worked for me. Were just exchanging opinions on our thoughts on the deck, I am not trying to insult you as a player. I am always open to learn from others and I hope others can learn from me. I can admit that the "man plan" is maybe not the most optimal plan, and that it does in fact side track the actual goal of the deck. All that being said, If it works, then it really doesnt matter who thinks its right or wrong. I have played the deck with sideboards with extra hurkyls and rebuilds and chain of vapors, and yes Ive won that way as well. But IMO tapping 1G to play a goyf is slightly less involved than playing around 3 threats that a fish player has on the table. It doesnt mean Im incapable of comboing out against hate decks because even with the creatures in the deck I still find myself going off. And your going to say, well why not just do that all of the time? Sure i could, but like i said attacking with goyf is just plain simple.

[Marske]

@XxtSundaybxX,
I agree with you regarding your last post and I wasn't trying to insult you either with all my previous posts. By all means if your sideboard plan has worked for you in your meta then go with it. As far as I read in all the posts neither of us is telling the other which sideboard is better and both of us are just advocating their strategy. With that out of the way lets get back to discussion shall we.

But IMO tapping 1G to play a goyf is slightly less involved than playing around 3 threats that a fish player has on the table. It doesnt mean Im incapable of comboing out against hate decks because even with the creatures in the deck I still find myself going off. And your going to say, well why not just do that all of the time? Sure i could, but like i said attacking with goyf is just plain simple.

If fish can get 3 threats on the board vs your main storm plan it should also be very capable of dealing with the 2/3 guys your bringing in. Most play maindeck STP or something like that. Sure goyf is the "easier" way compared to trying to storm against multiple hate pieces. But storming trough multiple hate pieces is just what TPS is made for (The original TPS list was created to battle trough 4x Trinisphere.dec)

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

My problem with, say, Desire vs Fish is that it costs 6 mana (2 of it being your non-ritual color), and at least 4 spells. I've always thought that Desire is the worst bomb in TPS until it resolves, and that is the biggest problem against Fish. I'd rather go for Necro/Bargain early game and Will late game. I agree that siding out off-color moxen is a viable option and I'd definitely take out Grim Tutors and Misdirections if you run them as well since Grims eat a ton of mana+life and Misdirection isn't as good as Duress. In my opinion this is what should come out:

-1 Misdirection
-1 Mind's Desire
-1 Grim Tutor
-1 Gifts Ungiven

for your 3xFish slots+1xHurkyl's Recall. You can also side out off-color Moxen for basic lands if you think their mana denial is strong enough. I would just do -1xMox, -1xTolarian Academy (less moxen+non-basics are bad business), +1xSwamp, +1xIsland. If you don't like some other card I would bring in the last Hurkyl's.

The reason the man plan fails is because they can run more big guys than you do and should be leaving in stuff like Diabolic Edicts to take down Inkwell anyways. On top of all that it also ridiculously dilutes your sideboard and post-sb deck without actually solving the Fish problem. I mean if I'm dedicating 7 sb slots (which is what it takes unless you're going to tutor for creatures instead of bombs[lol])on a particular deck I had better be beating it 80%+ of the time post-sb which the man plan doesn't do. Not to mention as marske said they can just bring back in a few extra creature kill cards. Worst case scenario StP on your own big guy can fizzle a Tendrils. I'd rather run some kind of transformational Oath SB than the man plan since it takes up only a few more slots and is infinitely more consistant. On top of all that it forces you to run green lands maindeck which just weaken your pre-board games against those prison decks that you're trying to sb against with creatures.

That doesn't mean don't run it if it works. I just think any good Fish player would laugh at it. As marske said TPS is designed to fight through hate with consistancy. This isn't Grim Long or ANT.

[Marske]

@FlyFlySideOfFry,
Ok, correct me if I'm wrong in interpreting your boardplan here. You take out Misdirection because likely there will be nothing worth misdirecting (which is also my idea) and you take out Grim because of the lifeloss (also something I've mentioned) and you take out Desire and Gifts because of the CMC (at least It looks like that)....So you expect them to deny you enough mana so you can't reach 4 or 5 to actually play gifts or desire but you don't bring in extra basics for moxen and keep your bombs.

Like I said before and Steve has also said in his article I think you're missing what's really important in that match up. Cutting bombs out of the deck and thus cutting yourself out of possible lines of play is a very bad idea in every match up and fish is no exception.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

@FlyFlySideOfFry,
Ok, correct me if I'm wrong in interpreting your boardplan here. You take out Misdirection because likely there will be nothing worth misdirecting (which is also my idea) and you take out Grim because of the lifeloss (also something I've mentioned) and you take out Desire and Gifts because of the CMC (at least It looks like that)....So you expect them to deny you enough mana so you can't reach 4 or 5 to actually play gifts or desire but you don't bring in extra basics for moxen and keep your bombs.

Like I said before and Steve has also said in his article I think you're missing what's really important in that match up. Cutting bombs out of the deck and thus cutting yourself out of possible lines of play is a very bad idea in every match up and fish is no exception.

Well the problem with Gifts is that it costs 4 mana and doesn't do anything that turn. You can't even fetch a creature kill spell. It is essentially a bad Grim Tutor against Fish. I would take out Gifts before anything else against Fish even Misdirection. I would definitely bring in basics but looking back my wording isn't clear. If their mana denial is super strong I would take out weak mana sources like moxen, but if their mana denial is weaker I would opt to take out Cabal Ritual and an additional slot depending on what I've seen already. Essentially if they aren't overloaded on mana denial they'll likely have more answers to your actual combo (in other words making Cabal weaker) so I would prefer focusing on my strengths and just beating them in the long game with lands and bombs.

My problem with Desire against Fish is that it just doesn't cut it. If you're casting 5 spells and a 6 mana Stifleable sorcery that can fizzle something has gone horribly wrong for the Fish player. I don't want to run a card that just happens to be good if I'm miles ahead I would rather run a card that takes me into that good position. Trust me, I love Desire more than any other bomb in TPS. I get giddy every time it comes down with a decent storm, even if I fizzle. However, my experience has shown me that Fish forces the best of the best out of combo and anything less is just 1 more window of opportunity for them to capitalize and punish you. Essentially I have no problem winning with Ancestral, Will, Tinker, draw-7s, Necro, and Bargain because they all either win now, are cheap, or fizzle with benefit. Desire does none of those 3 things and I can't afford sitting on a dead card just because if I get super lucky+my opponent gets super unlucky it might win me the game. I can see leaving in Desire if you try to just beat Fish with speed or you don't have anything in your SB slots but other than that it comes out.

Side note: However, I agree with you that cutting bombs in general is a bad strategy and I would never cut a bomb other than Desire. (unless you count Gifts as a bomb rather than a tutor) It is just an exception to an otherwise very sound rule and I can definitely understand where you're coming from. It is also why Desire is the last on my list of cards viable to sideboard out. I just prefer playing a tight and super consistant game as opposed to relying heavily on any random bomb that topdecks. It is also why I prefer tutors to draw spells in TPS.

[XxtSundaybxX]

I will say that depending on the build of fish(any white version), I will keep misdirection in. There are alot of cards that can be misdirected, obviously recall,chant,stp, and it's an offensive counterspell.

I feel that sideboarding gifts out is a huge mistake, most of the time if gifts resolved you have won the game. Even sideboarding grim tutor out is iffy IMO. This thread is stuck on leaving as many ways to victory as possible in the deck but you want to board out GT? Yeah it's 3 life, but often enough when it's cast your going to be winning the game.

I find myself boarding out cards like imp seal, off color moxen, even mystical tutor as long as your blue count is high enough.

I think one of the better cards to name with Mage is dark ritual and if the fish player names it, you might have a hard time going off without cabal ritual. But that depends on the meta and player. Alot of players here will name tendrils instantly because they're scared of it, so you just do your think and bounce it before you play tendrils.

[Marske]

@XXtSundaybxX,
Why would you want to misdirect Chant or STP ? Chances are you're more likely to win (barring your tendrils being gone) with 11 extra life if you play DSC and it's textless against Inkwell. Sure it's an offensive counterspell vs their Fow's but so are your FoW's. Don't get me wrong I can see where misdirecting STP could be good and all but it's just to narrow a card imo. Unless you're certain they run STP (seen it game 1) then I would keep it in.

This thread is stuck on leaving as many ways to victory as possible in the deck but you want to board out GT?

TPS benefits from having as many paths to victory as possible this means the TPS players has great flexibility and can handle almost any situation or turn any card you topdeck into a win. Regarding boarding out GT, I run 2 in my list and no Seal so I would indeed cut 1 GT.

I think one of the better cards to name with Mage is dark ritual and if the fish player names it, you might have a hard time going off without cabal ritual. But that depends on the meta and player. Alot of players here will name tendrils instantly because they're scared of it, so you just do your think and bounce it before you play tendrils.

Any decent fish player will tell you there are 2 cards in TPS they worry about the most because when they resolve they lose. Yawg. Win and Tinker. what's the use in naming Dark ritual if the TPS player is still able to bounce all moxen, Lotus (Chain Hurkyl's) Replay then followed by Yawg. Win and replay some draw spells / tutors to seal the deal or just plain Tinker - Robot and win ? Sure attacking Rituals is a great way to slow down any storm deck I'll agree with you on that but shutting down engine cards like Jar, Desire, Will and to a degree tinker (which can also be counted as a setup card) is likely better for them combined with attacking your mana base (moxen, lands) instead of shutting down your setup cards (tutors, Rituals, Gift, Fact) although note that gifts is a case in itself and should send alarm bells ringing when they can't stop it.

@FlyFlySideOfFry,
Gifts is an insane card against any deck and I can't recall the last time I lost when it resolved. Even against fish if it doesn't bring you the game this turn (which is possible) it will the next. Since fish isn't a deck that's going to go apeshit on you when you give it an extra turn. Does beating you with that MM and goyf again for 5 sound so dangerous? Unless you're already down at 5 off course but in that case you're probably losing with every other card too that doesn't win you the game that turn.

[XxtSundaybxX]

If my opponent named tinker or yawgmoths will, mostly tinker, I will be more than happy at them for doing so. I'm not saying that dark ritual is the correct card to name but when your digging for an answer or bounce spell to go off against a deck that is playing cards like null rod, wasteland, and daze, dark fits help cast your set up spells like grim tutor or gifts.

I have never been disappointed to see misdirection in my hand when I'm going off. Your are correct that if I haven't seen stp it might not be worth it. I haven't played the deck with inkwell since I haven't played the deck since before inkwell came out. 

I'm pretty sure I played 2 GTs so I could understand sbing one out

I also played a 2nd CoV in the sideboard for shops and fish. Not only does it bounce threats but it fuels desire as well.

[patat]

Any decent fish player will tell you there are 2 cards in TPS they worry about the most because when they resolve they lose. Yawg. Win and Tinker. what's the use in naming Dark ritual if the TPS player is still able to bounce all moxen, Lotus (Chain Hurkyl's) Replay then followed by Yawg. Win and replay some draw spells / tutors to seal the deal or just plain Tinker - Robot and win ? Sure attacking Rituals is a great way to slow down any storm deck I'll agree with you on that but shutting down engine cards like Jar, Desire, Will and to a degree tinker (which can also be counted as a setup card) is likely better for them combined with attacking your mana base (moxen, lands) instead of shutting down your setup cards (tutors, Rituals, Gift, Fact) although note that gifts is a case in itself and should send alarm bells ringing when they can't stop it.

I don't know if I agree with this statement..  Being a fish player who has played a decent amount against TPS, I can reasonably say I wouldn't name Yawg will off Mage (every situation has it's circumstance of course, but in general...)  Yawg will, although generally protected by the TPS player, is a simple FoW away from being shut down.  Naming Yawg will only creates slightly less diversity in the TPS player's path to victory, creating a more concise gameplan, which is hardly a hindrance.  Effectively, by naming Yawg, you're just casting a FoW that beats a little..  Naming Tendrils however is like casting a Stifle, which you have less of than actual counters, saving those nice FoW's and other counters for protecting your Mage or avoiding a Tinker. Also, with beats like Goyf/Mindcensor, Tinker isn't too hard to prevent/race anymore.. Of course, this depends on your hand/draw/game state, but generally, I see Mage hitting Tendrils much more often than Tinker or Yawg.  Naming Ritual seems just silly...  It slows, but it doesn't stop much of anything.

Effectively, a TPS player has two ways to win. 1) Tendrils, and 2) Tinker.  Stopping the path leading up to those just creates hiccups, not game wins.  Creating a lock on the final piece means forcing the TPS player to deal with that lock before an ultimate plan can be made into a win.  Fish has only so much counter magic; nowhere near enough to try to stop rituals, or even Yawg will at times, but a key Stifle with FoW backup can be gamebreaking.

Also as a side note, cards like Desire, Twister and Jar scare the ever loving crap out of me as a fish player (Gifts does as well, but that's a Given.. ).  Sure, I may hit a Force or a Daze with a new hand, but I could also hit a 4 land 3 fish hand. In that respect, Mage naming a card like that is much too situational.  A good TPS player knows that even though those engines are all strong plays, they can all fizzle.  The main goal of a fish player must be to beat down while protecting their life total, and cards like Yawg, Desire, Jar, and Twister have to be taken in stride rather than wholly prepared for. As the wise John Madden would say "At the end of the game, the team with the most points on the scoreboard wins." If your life drops below 0, you're dead.  Until then, you can still Force/Stifle.

Sorry for the hypothetical Fish PoV.  Hope it helps the discussion though.

[Harlequin]

As a fish player myself, I don't agree with almost anything Patat has outlined.  Infact I think he has most things backwards. 

First of all, Mage naming Tendrils is I think possibly the worst card they run to name ... maybe outside of Darksteel collosus.  Why would you ever name the LAST card of thier combo?  If TPS (or any other storm deck) starts comboing and has access to a major bomb like Yawg, Desire, or Bargin.  They will have no trouble steamrolling over Mage nameing Tendrils and/or stifle with counter back-up.  If they start thier combo un-molested its 'GG' dispite how many "late stream" answers you have.  They are going to amass a ton of advantage and just bounce your Mage, duress your stifle, and cast tendrils. 

If nothing has happened in the game, I would likely name Dark Rit with Meddling mage.  Dark rit is backbone of thier deck, and without it they will have trouble executing Yawg, Bargin, Desire, or an "out of hand" storm-9-tendrils kill.  Even cards like Trashing Wumpass and Necropotence are suddenly much more difficult to cast when Dark Ritual becomes unavailable.  You've effectively neuter the FIRST card they want to play when they begin to combo, not the LAST. 

If we've already had a 'good fight' (and I'm still alive) then Yawg is an excelent choice for Mage.  We;ve both depleated our hands but now thier graveyard is full of meat.  They are like one tutor away from recouping all this cards they lost.  This again leaves tinker as thier likely choice when they find a tutor - which is certainly a less dangerous card than will.  I can technically still beat a resolved Tinker; where a resolved will is going to end the game right now.

If they only run Duress or only Thoughsieze I might even consider naming that card.  It means I can keep them guessing about what is in my hand.  And now Stifle actually  -IS- an efftive "got'cha" card, rather than them just needing 1 extra duress/counter.

I acknowledge that every Mage naming needs to take into consideration the suroundings.  Like what they run, what your run, and what you have in hand.  But I think naming Rit is more often correct than "silly" for a typical WUx deck that run Mage.  Unless you've, I dunno, resolved a chalice @1 or something... 

[XxtSundaybxX]

The reason I mentioned naming Dark Rit with meddling mage is because I know the impact it makes on the deck when it resolves. I have had to play around it and yes while it only "slows" down my actions, it also prevents me from playing certain cards faster like harelequin mentioned. This in the long run gives the fish player more time to beat down and build a defense.

[Marske]

@Harlequin,
Nice to see a fish players input into this thread. I've always been under de impression most fish players would try and shut down will and tinker, now indeed you are right that naming Dark ritual with MM is a strong play if nothing happend and it would mean the TPS player must find a different way to win (most likely tinker) or get rid of the Mage before starting their combo turn. Granted it takes a bit more effort to find a bounce spell before your combo step begins without rituals then finding one at the end of your combo step when you've played them all and got one of your major engines online, but the impact of this is hardly noticeable I think.

First of all, Mage naming Tendrils is I think possibly the worst card they run to name ... maybe outside of Darksteel collosus.  Why would you ever name the LAST card of thier combo?  If TPS (or any other storm deck) starts comboing and has access to a major bomb like Yawg, Desire, or Bargin.  They will have no trouble steamrolling over Mage nameing Tendrils and/or stifle with counter back-up.  If they start thier combo un-molested its 'GG' dispite how many "late stream" answers you have.  They are going to amass a ton of advantage and just bounce your Mage, duress your stifle, and cast tendrils.

What you say here is a great example about how fish looks at TPS and what they actually care about. The bombs you describe here are all shutdown by mana denial and creatures like MM and how "easy" it appears to them TPS players can steamroll them if they don't shut down TPS acces to those bombs.

Now as I'm not a fish player myself, I think it's strange to hear you actually attack the enabler and not the bomb itself, one chain of vapor with FoW backup or duress on your mage set on Dark rit can easily start the TPS players critical turn, just as easy as bounce on a mage set on Will would do. It doesn't really matter to me that I need to bounce your Guy before playing my rituals or after I played them. Now obviously I understand it's not the only thread fish should be laying down.

Small sidenote I  want to highlight the fact that 2 fish players just stated Minds Desire as a bomb they are afraid of, which imo validates my claim that desire should not be boarded out but should be kept in the deck because it's still a viable path to victory in that matchup.

[XxtSundaybxX]

Haha Im sure you would like to point that out, Marske. Its not like Desire is the first card to search for when boarding cards out, I just feel it doesnt NEED to stay in the main if I need to make room. To each his own, what ever does it for you is all that matters in the end.

On a whole different subject, has anyone tried Thirst for Knowledge or any other draw spells in the deck? A friend of mine came up with a thirst tps list but I never did get to talk to him about his thoughts.

[Marske]

@XxtSundaybxX,
Obviously to each his own but I really just had to point that out

Don't we run Dark Ritual so we don't have to run slow cards like Thirst for Knowledge ? 3 mana is a lot and the pitching of 2 cards or possibly your acceleration is not something I would do. If you want to draw tons of cards TPS (unless you have Necro / Bargain or count draw7's) isn't the deck for you. It doesn't play a lot of conventional draw (oh I miss brainstorm) and I've never had problems running out of gas. Now not to dismiss the idea entirely, I've got one question for you. What problem are you solving (and which cards are you cutting) by fitting in TFK?

[Harlequin]

Now as I'm not a fish player myself, I think it's strange to hear you actually attack the enabler and not the bomb itself, one chain of vapor with FoW backup or duress on your mage set on Dark rit can easily start the TPS players critical turn, just as easy as bounce on a mage set on Will would do. It doesn't really matter to me that I need to bounce your Guy before playing my rituals or after I played them. Now obviously I understand it's not the only thread fish should be laying down.

If the combo player has Bounce for Mage, Rit for mana, and Bomb all in hand, all playable and protected - What you name with Mage is irrelevant.  There is no "right" name in that situation, and hey, sometimes fish loses .

My point is more clear when the combo player has Rit + Bomb, BUT the bomb is needed to FIND the removal.  So a situation where you have a rit or two and Bargin, or Rit into Yawg ~ where you have extra tutors to search out your bounce spell.   Or even something like Twister - I'd rather have them tap out 3 lands to twister than have them rit->twister leaving them with a land up and a black floating.  Necro too (and to an extent Grim Tutor), I'd rather have you need to tap out 3 lands to cast Necro than just pop a rit and toss it down.  In all of these situations Mage naming Tendrils or the wrong Bomb can easily be beaten in one turn.  But mage on Ritual buys you plenty of time to find other disruption and/or start the ground assualt.

[Guli]

Now as I'm not a fish player myself, I think it's strange to hear you actually attack the enabler and not the bomb itself, one chain of vapor with FoW backup or duress on your mage set on Dark rit can easily start the TPS players critical turn, just as easy as bounce on a mage set on Will would do. It doesn't really matter to me that I need to bounce your Guy before playing my rituals or after I played them. Now obviously I understand it's not the only thread fish should be laying down.

If the combo player has Bounce for Mage, Rit for mana, and Bomb all in hand, all playable and protected - What you name with Mage is irrelevant.  There is no "right" name in that situation, and hey, sometimes fish loses .

My point is more clear when the combo player has Rit + Bomb, BUT the bomb is needed to FIND the removal.  So a situation where you have a rit or two and Bargin, or Rit into Yawg ~ where you have extra tutors to search out your bounce spell.   Or even something like Twister - I'd rather have them tap out 3 lands to twister than have them rit->twister leaving them with a land up and a black floating.  Necro too (and to an extent Grim Tutor), I'd rather have you need to tap out 3 lands to cast Necro than just pop a rit and toss it down.  In all of these situations Mage naming Tendrils or the wrong Bomb can easily be beaten in one turn.  But mage on Ritual buys you plenty of time to find other disruption and/or start the ground assualt.

Correct assessment.

I am curious.

what would you name against a deck with mana drain? (Mana drain, TFK, Force of Will, etc.)

I want to add something though. Meddling Mage isn't exactly the most effective card anymore when the goal is to slow down the opponent. I am not just talking about the match against ritual. The meta now days forces a fish player to take the most effective cards to the tournament. So the slots must be filled with extreme caution leaving very little room for error. Meddling Mage might not be the optimal choice right now for the average fish player out there. What I would suggest is to use a creature base that further enforces the mail goal of the deck, or in concrete terms Null Rod. I am thinking Gorilla Shaman, Aven Mindcensor, Glowrider, Thorns, Cursecatcher, ... depending on the colors the pilot prefers. I believe Null Rod fish should try to go for prison/fish to maximize the mana denial. If this is done, the mana denial becomes a big FORCE OF WILL on its own during the course of the game. (Gestalt)

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Well I hope this doesn't come off the wrong way but when I play and design my Fish decks I'm more or less in line with what Harlequin said. I would rather attack the small stuff directly, which also indirectly attacks the big stuff. This is also why I don't like Desire against Fish, because unless they're playing their deck wrong or you're already miles ahead it should never work. This is also why I opt to cut expensive tutors (AKA anything bigger than 2 mana). I mean if I don't have enough stuff to justify siding in then I'll leave in Desire just because if I do happen to get into a situation where it works I may as well have it. I mean its like leaving in Necropotence against Ichorid. Ya sure, I mean if you get lucky and turn 1 Necro without losing more power to you. However, I'd rather not have a dead card sitting in my hand the other 90% of the time I draw Necro against Ichorid. This is why I think a lot of TPS players have problems in the Stax matchup. They try too hard to just Tendrils out through like 4 Spheres and a Wire on turn 10 rather than spending their business on bouncing the lock pieces early and trying to get Inkwell (or Key/Vault) down backed by enough permanents for it to go the distance.

Focusing on making your strongest path to victory even stronger rather than just sticking to a mentality of "Must. Plan. A. Always." will lead to more victories with a deck like TPS. Of course some players are strong enough, lucky enough, or both too just go for plan A and have it work outside of Grim Long/ANT and Belcher. More power to you, but I still disagree at least in theory with that strategy even if I fall in to the category of "not strong enough". Against Fish if it isn't cheap or 100% win now like Bargain, then I don't want to see it. I mean if they're just an arbitrary aggro control deck that is like 80% random beaters like Goblins or something then yeah, I'd leave in Desire every time. However, that is a different story.

I don't really have much else to say on this subject so to each his own and good luck with whatever SB strategy you decide to use. (unless you're against me )

@guli: It really depends on my deck, what I have in my hand, and what my opponent has played so far. I always try to pair Meddling Mage with black for Duress effects so that I can make more powerful names to take a 4x with a copy in their hand. Assuming I have a balanced hand that can attack each angle by itself then I would name their draw engine. I would never use Meddling Mage to arbitrarily name something like TfK when there are so many viable draw engines unless I saw they were playing it at a different table or its game 2. Also I'd never name anything that hurts my deck also like FoW. Finally mana denial stopped being a viable avenue when Vault lost its errata. The only mana denial I would run is something that is also good for another reason. (AKA it needs a body or to shut down a win condition also) At this point mana denial is just a tool to stall for something better to come along.

[Diakonov]

As a TPS player and Fish player, I can say that I've never been very fond of Meddling Mage.  The reasons why have already been outlined, namely that it doesn't really do enough to disrupt TPS' plan to warrant the two mana.  Sometimes it's a bomb if you get lucky (they draw/are holding a bunch of Rituals), but oftentimes it does absolutely nothing as well.  Especially nowadays, I'd rather run something like Rootwater Thief.  Unless they're going to win the next turn, it's a horrifying thing to look at from TPS' perspective.  If you are "Fish"-ing properly, you should be able to slow them down enough most of the time to allow Thief to beat once or twice.  Not to mention it's great at removing Time Vaults, which really should be Fish's main concern right now anyway.