TPS players

[Hrishi]

As many people have already stated in this thread, I've really liked the Gitaxian Probes. It's hand information, a free storm enabler and a cantrip all in one. I have attempted to take this deck in a slightly different direction with the addition of the Gitaxian Probes. If any experienced storm pilots would be so kind as to take a look at what I've been playing the past few weeks, I'd be grateful. I'll try to explain my thought process and go a little in depth into the more unconventional choices that you might see.

Decklist

Mana Base:
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

Acceleration:
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual

Bombs:
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Windfall
1 Timetwister
1 Mind's Desire
1 Memory Jar

Tutors:
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker

Disruption:
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Finisher:
2 Tendrils of Agony

Creatures:
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Other:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
2 Steel Sabotage
2 Orim's Chant
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle

Game Plan
The game plan is quite similar to the TPS decks of old. Set up a bomb, resolve it with your really good disruption package and storm to win. You have the option of Tinker -> Blightsteel as an alternate win condition. The latter is especially useful against creature decks. I won't go too much into this as there is nothing really new to say here.

Disruption Package
4 Force of Will and 4 Duress is just an incredibly good package for protection and disruption. You will honestly find it hard to get a better package than this. I don't like the lists that do not use FoW as it feels quite fragile. I would rather trade explosiveness for the protection FoW provides. The maindeck Hurkyl's Recall is very useful against workshops, since you will sculpt a perfect hand, Hurkyl's EOT and then storm to victory (ideally anyway...).

Bombs
Fairly self-explanatory, most of these bombs when resolved are going to let you storm to victory.

Scrubland?!
And now we come to the unconventional choice. As I stated, I tried to take this deck is a slightly different direction and try this out. I am very pleased with how useful Enlightened Tutor has been. I suspect if it didn't cost W, it would see a lot more play. You can use it to tutor Necropotence, Black Lotus, Yawgmoth's Bargain, or even other artifact acceleration if you use it to generate storm. More often than not, Necropotence is the bomb of choice because you can almost guarantee you will win the following turn, and it's a bit easier to resolve with your disruption cards to back it up and a single Ritual. Enlightened Tutor is really useful to make this possible. Yes, it is card disadvantage, but more often than not you won't care about it after Necropotence resolves since you'll completely refill your hand anyway. Originally I started with 3 E-Tutors, but have since cut it down to 1 as it is honestly overkill.

Post-sideboard, the white splash becomes even more interesting. Orim's Chant is simply a fantastic card against decks loaded with permission. The card turns into "you better counter this card or I might storm to victory and there is nothing you can do about it". You can use it to bait permission, follow it up with Duress to strip your opponent's hands down, it's uses are endless. I'm sure better players than me can imagine many many scenarios where the card is incredibly useful.

Sideboard
While the singleton Pithing Needle has been useful on many occasions (not to mention tutor-able by E-tutor), I'm not convinced it's the best option there is. I chose to go Tormod's Crypt+Ravenous Trap for Dredge hate because it's very possible to outrace Dredge and Leylines are usually not required. Steel Sabotage is useful for workshops, as well as additional Hurkyl's Recall copies. The singleton Flusterstorm is also something I am not yet convinced about.

Would love to hear your thoughts about the direction I took my deck. Sorry if this is a little long and wordy, but I wanted to go into my thought process as much as possible so there was no confusion about my intentions. I've been looking forward to contribute to this thread for a while and I'm finally glad to be able to do so.

[WhiteLotus]

Decklist

Mana Base:
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Tolarian Academy

Acceleration:
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual

Bombs:
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Windfall
1 Timetwister
1 Mind's Desire
1 Memory Jar

Tutors:
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker

Disruption:
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Finisher:
2 Tendrils of Agony

Creatures:
1 Blightsteel Colossus

Other:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk

Sideboard:
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
2 Steel Sabotage
2 Orim's Chant
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle

Game Plan
The game plan is quite similar to the TPS decks of old. Set up a bomb, resolve it with your really good disruption package and storm to win. You have the option of Tinker -> Blightsteel as an alternate win condition. The latter is especially useful against creature decks. I won't go too much into this as there is nothing really new to say here.

Disruption Package
4 Force of Will and 4 Duress is just an incredibly good package for protection and disruption. You will honestly find it hard to get a better package than this. I don't like the lists that do not use FoW as it feels quite fragile. I would rather trade explosiveness for the protection FoW provides. The maindeck Hurkyl's Recall is very useful against workshops, since you will sculpt a perfect hand, Hurkyl's EOT and then storm to victory (ideally anyway...).

Bombs
Fairly self-explanatory, most of these bombs when resolved are going to let you storm to victory.

Scrubland?!
And now we come to the unconventional choice. As I stated, I tried to take this deck is a slightly different direction and try this out. I am very pleased with how useful Enlightened Tutor has been. I suspect if it didn't cost W, it would see a lot more play. You can use it to tutor Necropotence, Black Lotus, Yawgmoth's Bargain, or even other artifact acceleration if you use it to generate storm. More often than not, Necropotence is the bomb of choice because you can almost guarantee you will win the following turn, and it's a bit easier to resolve with your disruption cards to back it up and a single Ritual. Enlightened Tutor is really useful to make this possible. Yes, it is card disadvantage, but more often than not you won't care about it after Necropotence resolves since you'll completely refill your hand anyway. Originally I started with 3 E-Tutors, but have since cut it down to 1 as it is honestly overkill.

Post-sideboard, the white splash becomes even more interesting. Orim's Chant is simply a fantastic card against decks loaded with permission. The card turns into "you better counter this card or I might storm to victory and there is nothing you can do about it". You can use it to bait permission, follow it up with Duress to strip your opponent's hands down, it's uses are endless. I'm sure better players than me can imagine many many scenarios where the card is incredibly useful.

Sideboard
While the singleton Pithing Needle has been useful on many occasions (not to mention tutor-able by E-tutor), I'm not convinced it's the best option there is. I chose to go Tormod's Crypt+Ravenous Trap for Dredge hate because it's very possible to outrace Dredge and Leylines are usually not required. Steel Sabotage is useful for workshops, as well as additional Hurkyl's Recall copies. The singleton Flusterstorm is also something I am not yet convinced about.

Would love to hear your thoughts about the direction I took my deck. Sorry if this is a little long and wordy, but I wanted to go into my thought process as much as possible so there was no confusion about my intentions. I've been looking forward to contribute to this thread for a while and I'm finally glad to be able to do so.

From my limited experience here's my input:

It's probably not even a remotely good idea to cut Red. First of all you loose Wheel of fortune the least situational of draw sevens, then you loose a strong sideboard plan against Shops since Ingot Chewer is the best 1 for 1 Workshop hate (evades chalice and thorn) and you also loose Empty the warrens (another key card in that matchup).
Having access to Pyroblast is also nice to deal with Counterspells and problematic Blue permanents.

Also I don't think you should run less then 2 Hurkyl's in the main if you want to have a fightning chance against shops game 1. You also MUST have Basics in your sideboard to help deal with mana denial and building up a stable mana base against Wastelands, null rod, spheres, ... it's key in a number of tough match ups.

Enlightened tutor is cute but I'm not convinced its uses outweigh its drawbacks (not being able to fetch answers, Tendrils, Yawgmoth's will, ...) If you want an additional tutor you should probably go for +1 grim tutor or merchant scroll.

You are a bit light on Combo enablers, which must cause you to fizzle more often then you should be.

You seem to be running a lot of Dredge hate in your sideboard (at the expense of your real problematic matchups), but you don't really need too, your deck is faster than theirs so you probably only need a bit of hate to out-tempo them a turn or two.

[WhiteLotus]

Ok, so after a bit of testing along with Solys suggestions, I've adopted something very close to Reid Dukes Storm combo (or Gitaxian Long as some have taken to call it).

LANDS
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy

INSTANT & SORCERIES
4 Dark Ritual
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Flusterstorm
1 Thoughtseize
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Time Walk
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Tinker
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Timetwister
1 Windfall
1 Mind's Desire
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony

OTHER SPELLS
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Opal
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Memory Jar
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain

SIDEBOARD
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Mountain
4 Ingot Chewer
3 Flusterstorm
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Swamp
1 Rebuild
1 Toxic Deluge

SB plan against shops
-3 Duress
-2 probe
-1 Flusterstorm
-1 Necropotence
-1 Ponder
-2 Ritual
-1 Chain
+2 Basics
+4 chewer
+2 hurkyl's
+1 Rebuild
+1 BSC
+1 EtW

SB plan against Key/vault control:
+3 Flusterstorm
-1 Ponder
-1 Windfall
-1 Hurkyl's

SB plan against Bug Fish
+2 Basics
+1 BSC
+1 Toxic deluge
+3 Flusterstorm
-1 Ponder
-1 Windfall
-2 Hurkyl's
-1 LED
-1 opal
-1 Gifts

SB plan against Landstill:
+3 Flusterstorm
-2 hurkyl's recall
-1 Ponder

So far I found the Workshop matchup to be pretty manageable. I've conducted a series of tests where I was always on the Draw, facing either Kuldotha combo shops or Espresso Stax. I still managed to win about 30% of the time pre-sideboarding, and around 50% after sideboarding. The sideboarding plan is very strong.

Frankly, I found the control matchup to be a lot tougher.
I played against Bug fish (with Null rod, TNN and thoughtseize) and it was absolutely a nightmare. The combination of mana denial, cheap counterspells and Deathrite shaman + dark confidant was really hard on me. I would really need some help on how to approach this matchup it's a complete blowout.
Grixis control was about "okay". Against Landstill if you can't maintain enough pressure to slip a bomb through, and the game gets to turn 3 you've basically lost, but that's no surprise.

[Tammit67]

Ok, so after a bit of testing along with Solys suggestions, I've adopted something very close to Reid Dukes Storm combo (or Gitaxian Long as some have taken to call it).

So far I found the Workshop matchup to be pretty manageable. I've conducted a series of tests where I was always on the Draw, facing either Kuldotha combo shops or Espresso Stax. I still managed to win about 30% of the time pre-sideboarding, and around 50% after sideboarding. The sideboarding plan is very strong.

Frankly, I found the control matchup to be a lot tougher.
I played against Bug fish (with Null rod, TNN and thoughtseize) and it was absolutely a nightmare. The combination of mana denial, cheap counterspells and Deathrite shaman + dark confidant was really hard on me. I would really need some help on how to approach this matchup it's a complete blowout.
Grixis control was about "okay". Against Landstill if you can't maintain enough pressure to slip a bomb through, and the game gets to turn 3 you've basically lost, but that's no surprise.

This is similar to my findings and list as well.

I'm starting to dislike necro/windfall right now and am considering replacing them either with 2 doomsday or a doomsday and moving the blightsteel main. Thoughts?

[WhiteLotus]

This is similar to my findings and list as well.

I'm starting to dislike necro/windfall right now and am considering replacing them either with 2 doomsday or a doomsday and moving the blightsteel main. Thoughts?

I practiced reid's list a bit (with tweeks) and IMO you should keep both in maindeck, especially necro it's one of the best cards in the deck. With that list I tend to board out necro where it's bad (shops, other fast storm decks) and windfall comes out on the draw in most matchups.
I like the blightsteel in the sideboard so when I need it I can get it, but it's a last resort plan since the deck doesn't really have the cards to protect it. I'd definitely consider playing an empty maindeck though.

[oshkoshhaitsyosh]

Cutting Necropotence would be awful. Windfall is a fine cut, but not necro...Necro easily wins games when played properly so cutting this is a terrible terrible choice imo...

[Soly]

Cutting Necropotence would be awful. Windfall is a fine cut, but not necro...Necro easily wins games when played properly so cutting this is a terrible terrible choice imo...

You want to maximize your uses of Dark Ritual.   Cutting Necropotence illustrates a flaw in understanding the dynamic of a 4 ritual storm deck.

[WhiteLotus]

Yeah, I don't think you'd ever want to  cut necro even in a slower variant. If you had to rate the engines of a ritual deck by power/investment it would probably be something like Necro>Ywill> Desire>Bargain>Jar>...
Although necro requires more skill to be effective, In a long variant if you go for 10 cards it shouldn't be hard to craft a perfect hand that has multiple lines of play. Necro is also usually the easiest way to set up a lethal Ywill/Desire.

It's also one of the only things that let's you get ahead of your opponent so much, let's take the situation where you spent your opener's ressources to break their hand and have a tutor, you don't want to nullify all you did by going for a draw7 and giving them some new counters, Ywill doesn't have enough action yet and Mind's desire requires way to much to be even considered, the card you want 9 times out of 10 in that situation is Necropotence. Necro also squirts right past SOTL and Notion thief.

and all that for the cost of a dark ritual... I mean it can't get any better than that.

Although similar in a way, Yawgmoth's bargain is not even remotely close to being in the same league that Necro is in Imo.

[Soly]

Although similar in a way, Yawgmoth's bargain is not even remotely close to being in the same league that Necro is in Imo.

I think cutting Bargain is a more acceptable idea.   I rarely played it in my Confidant Lists.

[Tammit67]

You want to maximize your uses of Dark Ritual.   Cutting Necropotence illustrates a flaw in understanding the dynamic of a 4 ritual storm deck.

No need for the jab. I'm replacing a card I don't think is amazing in the matchups I'm seeing with something I think I can leverage better.

So Necro is not good against shops. Also not what you want to be doing against dredge.That established and pretty well known...

However I also contend it is also pretty bad in the creature matchups yes? Hurray, I resolved my bomb, now let's pay a bunch of life and pass the turn? How many decks in the format are you uncomfortable giving an extra turn to? What if they also have time walk?

If all you guys are seeing are the Grixis control lists that only pressure you with bob, snapcaster, and the occasional lightning bolt then, yeah, necro is going to be insane. But if you are facing merfolk/RUG/BUG that can prevent you from resolving necro turn 1 or 2, its much more of a risk, where DD takes any cantrip + mana and turns it into a deterministic kill while letting you use your life to stall instead of race. Additionally, Doomsday will guarantee beating hate permanents while necro can only hope to cross its fingers.

[Soly]

I think you're grossly overreacting to the whole "pass the turn" mentality.   But I am not going to bother discussing this, because you're pretty set in your ways, contrary to what 10+ years of experience of storm pilots tell you.

[Tammit67]

I think you're grossly overreacting to the whole "pass the turn" mentality.   But I am not going to bother discussing this, because you're pretty set in your ways, contrary to what 10+ years of experience of storm pilots tell you.

I'm not set in my ways at all. I've been slowly getting into this format since October. I'm not here to proclaim I am right and all I say is gospel. I'm merely suggesting a change and my reasons for the change. If I've somehow offended you for suggesting that card X isn't a sacred cow, I am sorry 

It is that experience that I seek! How good do you think resolving a permanent for BBB, paying 10 or so life, and then passing turn is in a meta similar to what we saw in the top 8 of Vintage Champs? Can't we actually have a discussion?

The only person who has rebutted my idea with a great point is WhiteLotus when he stated

It's also one of the only things that let's you get ahead of your opponent so much, let's take the situation where you spent your opener's ressources to break their hand and have a tutor, you don't want to nullify all you did by going for a draw7 and giving them some new counters, Ywill doesn't have enough action yet and Mind's desire requires way to much to be even considered, the card you want 9 times out of 10 in that situation is Necropotence. Necro also squirts right past SOTL and Notion thief.

[WhiteLotus]

You want to maximize your uses of Dark Ritual.   Cutting Necropotence illustrates a flaw in understanding the dynamic of a 4 ritual storm deck.

No need for the jab. I'm replacing a card I don't think is amazing in the matchups I'm seeing with something I think I can leverage better.

So Necro is not good against shops. Also not what you want to be doing against dredge.That established and pretty well known...

However I also contend it is also pretty bad in the creature matchups yes? Hurray, I resolved my bomb, now let's pay a bunch of life and pass the turn? How many decks in the format are you uncomfortable giving an extra turn to? What if they also have time walk?

If all you guys are seeing are the Grixis control lists that only pressure you with bob, snapcaster, and the occasional lightning bolt then, yeah, necro is going to be insane. But if you are facing merfolk/RUG/BUG that can prevent you from resolving necro turn 1 or 2, its much more of a risk, where DD takes any cantrip + mana and turns it into a deterministic kill while letting you use your life to stall instead of race. Additionally, Doomsday will guarantee beating hate permanents while necro can only hope to cross its fingers.

I don't know what lead you to belieave that doomsday would be better than necropotence in a Long deck. But imo, Necro is the best card in the deck, as said earlier it's the bomb that requires the least investment, you usually just need a ritual and it almost always guarantees a win.

Actually you're not giving them an extra turn at all, you're telling them:" go on then because this is your last turn, if you don't do something really good I win this."
And besides Bargain and memory jar usually require you to pass the turn before you go off as well and mind's desire + ywill want you to set them up as well, so with that reasoning all the bombs of the decks can be bad in certain situations, you just have to know how and when to play each one and be able to adapt your gameplan to each situation, the format is obviously not favorable to the deck, so you have to be flexible in your approach to play around their stuff.

But if you cut necro there are a lot of things you won't be able to play around, imagine a board with sotl and dryad harbor, good luck with your doomsday plan and most of the other engines of the deck to win. Necro helps you blast right past that kinda stuff even in the deck's worst matchup, so cutting it seems like a really bad idea to me. There is no card you can replace it with that will be better for the deck.

Windfall is cuttable, it's probably the only card you'll never tutor up and it's only really good on turn 1 or after another draw 7. Although windfalls at 5 can win the game as well as windfalls at 7 can fizzle. But if you cut it entirely ,you'd better cut it for something that keeps the threat density of the deck the same imo.

[Tammit67]

I don't know what lead you to believe that doomsday would be better than necropotence in a Long deck. But imo, Necro is the best card in the deck, as said earlier it's the bomb that requires the least investment, you usually just need a ritual and it almost always guarantees a win.

Actually you're not giving them an extra turn at all, you're telling them:" go on then because this is your last turn, if you don't do something really good I win this."
And besides Bargain and memory jar usually require you to pass the turn before you go off as well and mind's desire + ywill want you to set them up as well, so with that reasoning all the bombs of the decks can be bad in certain situations, you just have to know how and when to play each one and be able to adapt your gameplan to each situation, the format is obviously not favorable to the deck, so you have to be flexible in your approach to play around their stuff.

But if you cut necro there are a lot of things you won't be able to play around, imagine a board with sotl and dryad harbor, good luck with your doomsday plan and most of the other engines of the deck to win. Necro helps you blast right past that kinda stuff even in the deck's worst matchup, so cutting it seems like a really bad idea to me. There is no card you can replace it with that will be better for the deck.

Windfall is cuttable, it's probably the only card you'll never tutor up and it's only really good on turn 1 or after another draw 7. Although windfalls at 5 can win the game as well as windfalls at 7 can fizzle. But if you cut it entirely ,you'd better cut it for something that keeps the threat density of the deck the same imo.

There is so much free mana that often having an extra B or a land drop easily wins with bargain. I've had no issue winning the turn it comes into play. And while yes, sometimes I'll pass the turn with Bargain or Memory jar, Jar won't require life and Bargain will only require life one card at a time without me having to guess.

The SotL issue would be a Chain of vapor, recall, lotus, twister, tendrils pass the turn pile. The requirements would be a cantrip + 1 card in hand (preferably something like dark ritual or lotus petal). You'd require UU BB + cantrip mana. More cards in hand translate into storm. If you have any of those five in hand, lion's eye diamond makes the pile considerably easier. Certainly a harder thing to think up than "necro, exile 10, go" but not unreasonable.

I see your point though. Thanks for your thoughts! I'll stick with Necro.

I really dislike Windfall almost every time I stumble across it (as I have yet tutor for it) and was thinking of a reliable replacement. The necro discussion was more of a whim that walked me into a snakepit.

[A.-1.]

...Bargain will only require life one card at a time without me having to guess.

...Certainly a harder thing to think up than "necro, exile 10, go" but not unreasonable.

As opposed to the "guessing" you do with Necropotence? To play Necro properly, you don't blindly pay 10 life. That number was mentioned with Necro and it sounds like you're hung up on that number. After you play Necro, there are a lot of factors you need to assess before picking an optimal number.

[Tammit67]

As opposed to the "guessing" you do with Necropotence? To play Necro properly, you don't blindly pay 10 life. That number was mentioned with Necro and it sounds like you're hung up on that number. After you play Necro, there are a lot of factors you need to assess before picking an optimal number.

That's right. I got to calculate odds that the next X cards are good enough to devise a 7 card hand that wins. With bargain, at least I get to activate once, reevaluate my hand, then maybe pay if I need/want.

I'm not hung up on anything besides that I probably shouldn't have questioned necro based on the negative response I'm getting. Christ.

[diopter]

Necro gets boarded out vs. non-affinity Shops just as a consequence of boarding out rituals.

Actually it's just really an uphill battle these days to fight Shops with this game plan. Threat density is what powers you past UBx Key Vault or Landstill, and Necro is basically the best card in your deck. But all the scaffolding required to support that (beginning with Dark Ritual) becomes a house of cards against Shops, and Necro becomes terrible, but so is the rest of the deck.

Primary advice: don't play this deck to a field with 1/3 Shops, unless you have a major trump like Burning Oath's eponymous enchantment, or WhiteLotus's incredible sideboard.

Secondary advice: if you play it anyway, you must keep Necro for the omnipresent combo-control matchup. If your Shops sideboard trump is quad laser Hurks, consider keeping Windfall. The post-board teardown of your combo scaffolding against Shops often leaves your post-Hurk turn fizzling, Windfall is one of the few ways to get around that.

Tertiary advice: BSC main is an awesome and low-cost trump to Shops, definitely consider it. Doomsday won't solve anything since your primary concern with Shops is ever getting Dark Ritual to fire.

[WhiteLotus]

Necro gets boarded out vs. non-affinity Shops just as a consequence of boarding out rituals.

Actually it's just really an uphill battle these days to fight Shops with this game plan. Threat density is what powers you past UBx Key Vault or Landstill, and Necro is basically the best card in your deck. But all the scaffolding required to support that (beginning with Dark Ritual) becomes a house of cards against Shops, and Necro becomes terrible, but so is the rest of the deck.

Primary advice: don't play this deck to a field with 1/3 Shops, unless you have a major trump like Burning Oath's eponymous enchantment, or WhiteLotus's incredible sideboard.

Secondary advice: if you play it anyway, you must keep Necro for the omnipresent combo-control matchup. If your Shops sideboard trump is quad laser Hurks, consider keeping Windfall. The post-board teardown of your combo scaffolding against Shops often leaves your post-Hurk turn fizzling, Windfall is one of the few ways to get around that.

Tertiary advice: BSC main is an awesome and low-cost trump to Shops, definitely consider it. Doomsday won't solve anything since your primary concern with Shops is ever getting Dark Ritual to fire.

It seems awkward everybody is worried about shops with this deck, I mean sure you're an underdog in game 1 but in game 2 & 3 it's the other way around, unless they get a strong start on the play and completely lock you down (which would win against any non shop deck anyway). Hurkyl's recall costs the same as oath of druids, and it's a lot less likely that you'll be confronted with chalice on 2 than burning oath that has every thing at that cost (Oath, bwish, hurkyl). Your mana base is also bigger and more resilient to wasteland and Grafdigger's cage is 10x weaker.
Last point ingot chewers in the side really help, they can take care of chalice a lodestone golem when it would be unproductive to hurkyl them.

This is my sideboard with the deck right now:

SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Mountain
SB: 3 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Blightsteel Colossus
SB: 1 Rebuild
SB: 1 Island
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Swamp
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Flusterstorm

I haven't taken this deck to an event or anything, but I've tested and tweaked it against a wide array of different decks. So far It has been working pretty decently for me, the only matchup I really don't like is hatebears, that one is truely an uphill battle. Thank god those decks don't see a lot of play.


Regarding moving the blightsteel to the maindeck, it seems like a worse idea than empty I'd argue, the blightsteel is very vulnerable with the small protection package in the deck and I don't think crowding the maindeck with more potential dead cards is a good idea since you have cards that are dead (or almost) in every matchup already.
Empty on the other hand it a lot harder to disrupt short of something like echoing truth, Toxic deluge or engineered explosives (cards that will see play in decks against which you don't need empty anyway)

That's right. I got to calculate odds that the next X cards are good enough to devise a 7 card hand that wins. With bargain, at least I get to activate once, reevaluate my hand, then maybe pay if I need/want.

I'm not hung up on anything besides that I probably shouldn't have questioned necro based on the negative response I'm getting. Christ.

Yeah But taking out necro in that deck is like taking out Tinker in a mana drain deck, it's basically heresy lol. No wonder people are like "=O Are you mad?"

So to wrap it up keep necro in the deck most definetely and if you're not comfortable with windfall I'd replace it either with Gifts, fact, Grim tutor n°2, thoughtseize or Flusterstorm.
But Imo you should keep it because in some matchups like against combo decks, dredge and workshop draw 7s are really stong and in control matchup they serve as bait or broken turn 1s so it's never really that bad.
You've also got to remember that the different engines shine in different matchups in this deck so it's a matter of juggling with them.

My 2 cents.

[mmcgeach]

I see your point though. Thanks for your thoughts! I'll stick with Necro.

I really dislike Windfall almost every time I stumble across it (as I have yet tutor for it) and was thinking of a reliable replacement. The necro discussion was more of a whim that walked me into a snakepit.

The problem with Necro is it is by far the hardest of the bombs to master, or even to play well. It sounds like you're a good player coming from some other format.  Just keep necro in there for a while, until you like it.  It'll happen eventually.

I also think windfall sucks...  but usually because I play against blue decks, where giving them more counters just hurts more than it helps.  It sounds like you're having more problems with BUG and RUG and Junk fish-type decks, which I agree are actually very hard matchups for storm (and probably worse than shops, depending on the number of hatebears they're running).  I think it's worth thinking about the modifications that make this deck better against a field of

1) bug fish (or merfolk) with a dozen or so cheap counters + null rod, and
2) junk hatebears with stuff like spirit, thalia, thoughtseize, deathrite, stony silence, etc.

maybe it's oath; like burning oath lists.  maybe it's tinker->inkwell.  I dunno.  Maybe just ancient tombs in the sideboard to fight through the mana denial.  toxic deluge?

[WhiteLotus]

I see your point though. Thanks for your thoughts! I'll stick with Necro.

I really dislike Windfall almost every time I stumble across it (as I have yet tutor for it) and was thinking of a reliable replacement. The necro discussion was more of a whim that walked me into a snakepit.

The problem with Necro is it is by far the hardest of the bombs to master, or even to play well. It sounds like you're a good player coming from some other format.  Just keep necro in there for a while, until you like it.  It'll happen eventually.

I also think windfall sucks...  but usually because I play against blue decks, where giving them more counters just hurts more than it helps.  It sounds like you're having more problems with BUG and RUG and Junk fish-type decks, which I agree are actually very hard matchups for storm (and probably worse than shops, depending on the number of hatebears they're running).  I think it's worth thinking about the modifications that make this deck better against a field of

1) bug fish (or merfolk) with a dozen or so cheap counters + null rod, and
2) junk hatebears with stuff like spirit, thalia, thoughtseize, deathrite, stony silence, etc.

maybe it's oath; like burning oath lists.  maybe it's tinker->inkwell.  I dunno.  Maybe just ancient tombs in the sideboard to fight through the mana denial.  toxic deluge?

Totally agree with the statement about necro, at first it seems like a bad bargain, but as you get familiar with it, bargain becomes the bad necro.

I also agree that the deck needs to be stronger against hatebears and creature denial decks, but I'm not sure oath is the answer since those decks often board in cage against you and bug fish has abrupt decay.
Oath want's you to focus on it too much as well it needs to be protected from counters and hate. This deck can not do those things nor does it want to, it's attempting to squirt pass the hate and counters of the ennemy using probes and duress to get info and adjust it's gameplan accordingly, so it knowd how to sequence its spells or what card to tutor for.

Ancient tomb seems just bad in a deck with so many 1cc costing spells, basics are a lot better for that and they don't get hit by wasteland.

Toxic deluge will not solve anything against merfolk and Bug. This deck wants to focus on what's important and it's still the denial and counters that hurt you there. It has tremendous value in the hatebear matchup though where it's basically the creature equivalent of hurkyl's recall since it's mainly the creatures that are disrupting you.

I think playing a 3/4 bounce package maindeck is mandatory here, Personally I have 2 hurkyl, 1 chain of vapor and 1 repeal in the main deck. They help a lot to get rid of a null rod/ thalia as well as synergizing with Storm count.
Or else a strong sideboard geared against denial with basics and alternate win cons is probably where you want to be at. I think the sideboard I posted is pretty strong in those aspects, it has great flexibility across it's answers/matchups and the fact that it just ignores dredge hate mean you can really focus on the problematic stuff.

[MisterFoote]

Empty the Warrens is amazing against bug.

[Samoht]

Empty the Warrens is amazing against bug.

Toxic Deluge disagrees.

[diopter]

Empty the Warrens is amazing against bug.

Toxic Deluge disagrees.

Could you maybe clarify? Do you mean that BUG would play Toxic Deluge against an Empty-wielding combo deck, or that the combo deck is better off playing Toxic Deluge in place of Empty against BUG?

[Samoht]

Empty the Warrens is amazing against bug.

Toxic Deluge disagrees.

Could you maybe clarify? Do you mean that BUG would play Toxic Deluge against an Empty-wielding combo deck, or that the combo deck is better off playing Toxic Deluge in place of Empty against BUG?

The BUG control decks are all packing Deluge(s). I don't see how Empty is very good against them. Tendrils is significantly better to resolve against them as they are often losing much life to Bob, Fetches, and Forces.

If we're talking about BUG Fish, they can easily outrace mini Empty and will die to large ones being Tendrils anyway. Deathrite, Goyf, Ooze, etc. all are very strong

[diopter]

Empty the Warrens is amazing against bug.

Toxic Deluge disagrees.

Could you maybe clarify? Do you mean that BUG would play Toxic Deluge against an Empty-wielding combo deck, or that the combo deck is better off playing Toxic Deluge in place of Empty against BUG?

The BUG control decks are all packing Deluge(s). I don't see how Empty is very good against them. Tendrils is significantly better to resolve against them as they are often losing much life to Bob, Fetches, and Forces.

If we're talking about BUG Fish, they can easily outrace mini Empty and will die to large ones being Tendrils anyway. Deathrite, Goyf, Ooze, etc. all are very strong

The context of this conversation seems to have been about BUG fish. So your original comment about Toxic Deluge seems to not apply at all.

However, your follow-up comment is insightful and appreciated.

I agree that Empty probably isn't ideal against BUG fish either. It isn't a hatebear deck so Empty isn't exactly trumping them or sidestepping their interactions with you. It probably remains a hard matchup even if you try to nullify their control game plan with something like Defense Grid...

[WhiteLotus]

If a blue deck is bringing in toxic deluge or even keeping it in post board, then as a combo player you should be pretty happy...

Bug fish doesn't(shouldn't?) usually play goyf, the deck is pretty much swing for 2 dmg guys, so racing 10/12 tokens? hmm seems unlikely.
In any case against any deck that wins through combat, Empty may win you the game just by providing tempo in the form of a wall of blockers thwarting their aggro gameplan, and if you only get to land one swing you can always follow it up with a mini tendrils to end the job. Additionally, they (Bug, Delver and merfolk) basically have no way of dealing with it (a workshop deck might have wurmcoil engine, steel hellkite or ratchet bomb and a control deck might have engineered explosives or echoing truth). So I would definitely not say it's bad there.

But against a blue deck if you have an opening to go for empty you can probably kill them with tendrils most of the time.
Personally I keep my empty in the sideboard, I don't think it's what you want to be doing against an aggro control/control deck, I'd rather focus on a way to deal with the mana denial and/or counters in those matchups.

IMO Empty the warrens is meant for the hatebear/workshop matchup, where:
a) you might not be able to reach a high enough storm count for a lethal tendrils due to heavy constraints;
b) you may need to go all in on empty on turn 1 because you might not ever get another opening to go off
c) you could need permanents so smokestack/tangle doesn't hurt your mana base
d) you'd want to out-tempo them enough (by blocking their attacks as illustrated above) that you are able to create an opening through toxic deluge/hurkyl.

my 2 cents

[Samoht]

If you're bringing in EtW, why should the control deck be boarding out Deluge again?

Pretty sure you're devaluing the Deathrite Shaman's against EtW. I've definitely seen lists on Goyf and/or Ooze do well. I don't know where your definitive statement of doesn't/shouldn't is stemming from. Maybe the lists you've tested with don't play the card, but there are plenty that do. If you can land one Empty and then a Tendrils, why not just two Tendrils?

I agree with A. I agree with B. I'm skeptical of C but can listen to it. I'm very skeptical of D.

[Varal]

I don't think BUG Fish can race the tokens as much as kill them all especially 8-10 tokens, 12-14 might be harder. BUG Fish play Deathrite Shaman that as a 1/2 can put a sever dent to your attack. Scavenging Ooze, True-Name Nemsis and Trygon Predator are also often seen. Removal is often restricted to Abrupt Decay and Snapcaster Mage. Let's assume your opponent has a DRS in play when you cast X goblins. Cast a Scavenging Ooze the turn after that. An Abrupt Decay the turn after that and nothing the turn after. A blowout Snapcaster on Abrupt Decay can really reduce the efficiency of the 3rd attack. (If a creature is in a graveyard, DRS could probably gain 2 life.) You make:
1st attack: X-2
2nd attack: X-5
3rd attack: X-9
3X-16 damage
Potential 4th attack: X-11 but your opponent could possibly mitigate it.
Damage output for X=
8       9 damage (3rd attack is inefficent)
10     14 damage (4th attack is inefficent)
12     21 damage (4th attack for 1 damage included) 18 damage with the blowout Snapcaster Mage that prevents 4th attack and they can win 2 life next turn.
14     29 damage (4th attack for 3 damage included) 24 damage with the Snapcaster. 4th attack is inefficient because Snapcaster in graveyard gives 2 life.

We can see that even if they take a few damage themselves, they will probably survive the ordeal with 8-10 goblins but fail with 12-14. They could still survive 12 goblins with a good hand without too much self-damage.

We still see that Empty the Warrens is slightly more efficient at doing mini-Tendrils, casting the second one could also be easier because they need to expense all their ressources to survive the Goblins.

It's worth mentionning that Goblins are notoriously bad against Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull.

[WhiteLotus]

If you're bringing in EtW, why should the control deck be boarding out Deluge again?

Pretty sure you're devaluing the Deathrite Shaman's against EtW. I've definitely seen lists on Goyf and/or Ooze do well. I don't know where your definitive statement of doesn't/shouldn't is stemming from. Maybe the lists you've tested with don't play the card, but there are plenty that do. If you can land one Empty and then a Tendrils, why not just two Tendrils?

I agree with A. I agree with B. I'm skeptical of C but can listen to it. I'm very skeptical of D.

Well for one i'm def not bringing empty in against bug fish or any tinker deck, I was merely illustrating that empty could be of some use against aggro decks. In my opinion the main issue in those matchups is to create an opening to push a threat through rather than achieving lethal storm count while going off, I truely believe Empty is totally unnecessary there.

The bug creature package rarely includes goyf ok for clique, shaman, ooze, TNn and edric, but goyf is pretty rare, and goyf doesn't have trample, so you'd probably just leave a token untapped to block it each turn. I'm not underestimating the value of DRS against ETW at all it's pretty similar to the way it blocks pyromancer tokens all day.

Also I never claimed ETW was good against bug, In fact I think it's a mistake to bring it in post-board and missing the point. ie This deck doesn't want to answer the opponent's game plan it want's to ignore it and play around it, empty certainly does nothing in that direction against control/ aggro control decks so i'd argue it's a waste of space, I'd rather focus on what's important: mana denial (wasteland, null rod) and countermagic. But I was attempting to relativize because it's not like it's completely bad either, it still has some value.

C and D of course are not the reasons you want to play empty but they can still be relevant in some situations, like say your opponent is playing some hatebear deck and you have 8-12 tokens, at first you can swing for a few turns then as turns go by they kill a few of your tokens with blockers before you can kill them, so at some point you have like 4/5 left and you switch to defense mode leaving them as blockers so your opponent cannot attack or you'll just block the things disrupting you and go for the win, so the 4/5 tokens left will make sure your opponent doesn't attack as easily and in the meantime lets you get to your toxic deluge, tinker for blightsteel, mini tendrils that the first swings of empty tokens made lethal... So Empty the warrens not only acts as win condition that lowers the storm count for tendrils but it can also protect your life total.

[MisterFoote]

I play empty main deck.  You will only see a card like deluge in response.  If you show it, board it out. Otherwise its a great way to steal a game in what isn't really an easy match up.  I think it is beyond obvious that tendrils for the win is better.  Always.  Its also easier to win with a little hoard of goblins and a short money tendrils.  Especially against a deck that taxes themselves so hard.  I wish I was able to add more via pc....internets are down and Im on the phone.