Ubastax parties like its 2005 at chicago side event 3-8-09

[Tabasco]

The problem I see with Alan's argument is that:

 , they planned on only having 900-100 players max, anything above that seems like profit in terms of cost on the weekend since they based their estimates on having 200 or so less people than actually showed up.
 , This was a side event, so since as I stated in number 1 you were already at a profit, why do you need to cut an even deeper profit away from the event than is necessary.
 , Cost of the venue should not factor into this side event, as you were paying for the hall regardless of whether or not you held this event.  I suppose the judges you had for this event would have gone home instead of helping with the GP if you hadn't held this side event?

I think if you look at the attendance of the GP, the attendance of the Vintage side event how much you took in - costs for Judges venue, etc. You still came out way ahead that you could have skimped a little less on your prize support to make your customers happy instead of padding your wallet an extra inch or two.

But what would I know I am only a potential customer from the Milwaukee area who has attended several of your events in the past.  At least when Ben Carp runs events he is willing to upgrade his prizes.

[Gaagooch]

To clarify my previous post in this particular thread, I was not trying to say that tournament prizes where still low in our area of the country.  We as a community had a discussion about it and brought up the points, and the thoughts that we all had on the subject.  For the most part it created a pretty drastic change in the prize structures at our local tournaments.  I have no problem attending them because vintage is a very fun format, and the people make it all worth it.  I have not been to any tournaments other than waterbury and GP chicago recently due to the fact that I was out of work for the past few months.  I have since found work, and will be planning on attending many more vintage tournaments in the northeast and possibly the Midwest, as the way I see it, vintage can grow this year and become what it used to be.  I hope the format can return to the prominence that it used to have, I also hope that the to's can see that they can make money and still host tournaments that draw in a crowd.

As more clarification you will notice that I never mention what tournaments I have been to with less than stellar prize support.  The reason being that it is not for me to decide what they give out as prize, and I will not fault them for giving out less than I think they should.  The only option I myself have as being a member of this community is to not patron these tournaments until there is a change in prize structure that will benefit the community.  My intention was clearly not to call out any particular TO's, or anything like that, it was just to bring up the point that as a community when this issue happens we deal with it how we can, which is usually not attending tournaments.  If TO's want to host tournaments where they make money, they have to have a scaling prize structure in my opinion.  If you guarantee a mox at 24 people in attendance, what do you do when 44 people show up?  Nobody expects two moxes, but usually vintage players expect something a little better than a guru swamp for 5-8.  Granted they are worth $30-$40, we as a community have little to no use for them.

[Tha Gunslinga]

For the record, if I got 81 people at $25 each, I'd be putting up something like this:

1.  UL Lotus
2.  UL Time Walk
3.  UL Twister/Bazaar
4.  UL Twister/Bazaar
5-8: 4 duals or 4 Forces per person
Which STILL makes me money.

But hey, I don't have kids to feed.

[OwenTheEnchanter]

God, Ben Carp is THE MAN!

[Smmenen]

For the record, if I got 81 people at $25 each, I'd be putting up something like this:

1.  UL Lotus
2.  UL Time Walk
3.  UL Twister/Bazaar
4.  UL Twister/Bazaar
5-8: 4 duals or 4 Forces per person
Which STILL makes me money.

But hey, I don't have kids to feed.

So DO IT.    Hold a P9 event!

[LordHomerCat]

That is a main reason that Ben is in the top 2 TO's in the US (hard to argue against Ray as well).

[oneofchaos]

Ben, just be sure not to take more than 50% in profit ^^.  If you hold a tournament and you use your cards as prizes and you get the retail value you wanted for them, then it is a win for you.  No need for multiple ebay auctions, buyers, etc.  You will unload them during one day when you host the tournament.  Secondly, you are doing the community a huge favor by holding a tournament. 

[Marske]

@Everybody,
Now I have nothing really productive to add to this discussion because I was at the other side of the planet when GP Chicago went down... but I just wanted to respond to Tha_Gunslinga and every person or TO in America because this really is a issue that concerns us all because we take organizing our own events so seriously and people who own stores, Deal cards just see Vintage players as cash cows (Older crowd, most players actually have cash they can spend on stuff etc)

Ok, I'll probably be way out of line but here goes:

$25 US dollar (19,- Euro) for that kind of pricesupport is just plain stealing no matter how you twist and turn it.

Take a look at BOM (European event)... to enter it you pay 25 euro (34 Dollar) and look at the price support they are giving away and I know for a fact they are making a profit out of it. With stuff like the P9, Bazaars etc being way more expensive in Europe, Drains go for 100 Euro each (convert that yourself) and that's not even talking about power.. I'm not in the least bit surprised why you guys have seen a decline in attendance, people leaving the format etc with this kind of stuff going on.

You guys could learn a thing or 2 from us "crazy" Europeans about hosting big events...which get support from dealers and stores.

[Shock Wave]

@Everybody,
Now I have nothing really productive to add to this discussion because I was at the other side of the planet when GP Chicago went down... but I just wanted to respond to Tha_Gunslinga and every person or TO in America because this really is a issue that concerns us all because we take organizing our own events so seriously and people who own stores, Deal cards just see Vintage players as cash cows (Older crowd, most players actually have cash they can spend on stuff etc)

Ok, I'll probably be way out of line but here goes:

$25 US dollar (19,- Euro) for that kind of pricesupport is just plain stealing no matter how you twist and turn it.

Take a look at BOM (European event)... to enter it you pay 25 euro (34 Dollar) and look at the price support they are giving away and I know for a fact they are making a profit out of it. With stuff like the P9, Bazaars etc being way more expensive in Europe, Drains go for 100 Euro each (convert that yourself) and that's not even talking about power.. I'm not in the least bit surprised why you guys have seen a decline in attendance, people leaving the format etc with this kind of stuff going on.

You guys could learn a thing or 2 from us "crazy" Europeans about hosting big events...which get support from dealers and stores.

There is nothing that compares to those nutty "Bazaar of Moxen" tourneys. Has anyone seen the prize support for those things? For $34/player, you'd think it was a charity or something, but they are STILL turning a profit. It really makes one wonder how a TO can run a tournament like the Vintage side event at the Chicago GP, claim to have a shred of integrity, and keep a straight face.

[Gaagooch]

@Everybody,
Now I have nothing really productive to add to this discussion because I was at the other side of the planet when GP Chicago went down... but I just wanted to respond to Tha_Gunslinga and every person or TO in America because this really is a issue that concerns us all because we take organizing our own events so seriously and people who own stores, Deal cards just see Vintage players as cash cows (Older crowd, most players actually have cash they can spend on stuff etc)

Ok, I'll probably be way out of line but here goes:

$25 US dollar (19,- Euro) for that kind of pricesupport is just plain stealing no matter how you twist and turn it.

Take a look at BOM (European event)... to enter it you pay 25 euro (34 Dollar) and look at the price support they are giving away and I know for a fact they are making a profit out of it. With stuff like the P9, Bazaars etc being way more expensive in Europe, Drains go for 100 Euro each (convert that yourself) and that's not even talking about power.. I'm not in the least bit surprised why you guys have seen a decline in attendance, people leaving the format etc with this kind of stuff going on.

You guys could learn a thing or 2 from us "crazy" Europeans about hosting big events...which get support from dealers and stores.

But power costs more in Europe because there is a much higher demand for it.  That is why the prices of your events are as high as they are, but it isn't like you aren't getting anything out of the prize pools, the prize pools I've seen for any of these tournaments makes me wish I lived there and had the power 9 at my disposal.


P.S. I know this is mostly off topic, but have you seen the BAZAAR of yawgMOX will that Ron Spencer did that they are giving away.  That card alone by itself is worth my and anyone else I knows attendance.

[vassago]

For the record, if I got 81 people at $25 each, I'd be putting up something like this:

1.  UL Lotus
2.  UL Time Walk
3.  UL Twister/Bazaar
4.  UL Twister/Bazaar
5-8: 4 duals or 4 Forces per person
Which STILL makes me money.

But hey, I don't have kids to feed.

So DO IT.    Hold a P9 event!

I am going to second this motion.  Give advance notice and I might even fly out for this one.

[Suicideking]

For the record, if I got 81 people at $25 each, I'd be putting up something like this:

1.  UL Lotus
2.  UL Time Walk
3.  UL Twister/Bazaar
4.  UL Twister/Bazaar
5-8: 4 duals or 4 Forces per person
Which STILL makes me money.

But hey, I don't have kids to feed.

So DO IT.    Hold a P9 event!

I am going to second this motion.  Give advance notice and I might even fly out for this one.

You guys could just save yourself the price of airfare and mail $25 to the ICBM headquarters.  I mean weekends in the summer are nice to have to do something besides go 0-2. 

[vassago]

For the record, if I got 81 people at $25 each, I'd be putting up something like this:

1.  UL Lotus
2.  UL Time Walk
3.  UL Twister/Bazaar
4.  UL Twister/Bazaar
5-8: 4 duals or 4 Forces per person
Which STILL makes me money.

But hey, I don't have kids to feed.

So DO IT.    Hold a P9 event!

I am going to second this motion.  Give advance notice and I might even fly out for this one.

You guys could just save yourself the price of airfare and mail $25 to the ICBM headquarters.  I mean weekends in the summer are nice to have to do something besides go 0-2. 

Mmmmm I probably should just do that....  would save me the entire trip. Would the prize be fed-x'd or UPS'd to my address after that?   =oD

[Suicideking]

You will recieve you broodstar in 6-8 weeks.

[vassago]

IS IT FOIL? If so that is freakin' HAWT!   =oD

[mutedequilibrium]

Glad to see that Workshops still have a champion holding up their name.

A quick set of questions for Vroman:

1. The Ichorid matchup continues to be a problem, it seems. Mogg Fanatics are a nice touch. Are they enough? Have you considered Tabernacle or Powder Keg in the board?
2. The Oath matchup: Are 2 Duplicants enough, MD? Have you considered Greater Gargadon in the board?
3. Rack and Ruin: Is this better than Shattering Spree?

[BC]

Not sure how often Vroman is on TMD these days, but I can give you my thoughts on this:

1. Ichorid: I have started running 2 Ensnaring Bridge main, dropping Duplicants altogether, with 2 more Bridges in the board.  Together with Fanatic and Crypt, this makes the dreaded Ichorid matchup much much better.  Bridge is also one of the only viable answers to Inkwell Leviathan, and is still good against Fish, Gro, etc.
2. The Oath matchup: See #1.  Since Tidespout Tyrant is out of style, a good Ensnaring Bridge will shut down the attack of (possibly shrouded) Angels/Hydras.  Gargadon was fantastic when Tyrant Oath was the deck to beat, but now it seems too narrow.
3. Rack and Ruin: Is this better than Shattering Spree?  Not really sure.  It will always be a personal preference.  R&R kills 2 artifacts for 3 mana.  Spree only costs 1 and can potentially kill multiple artifacts/become uncounterable if you have multiple red sources.  Up to you.

[mutedequilibrium]

1. Ichorid: I have started running 2 Ensnaring Bridge main, dropping Duplicants altogether, with 2 more Bridges in the board.  Together with Fanatic and Crypt, this makes the dreaded Ichorid matchup much much better.  Bridge is also one of the only viable answers to Inkwell Leviathan, and is still good against Fish, Gro, etc.

I'm a huge fan of Bridge, personally. I'm currently running 4 in the board, but I can see running some in the main. Leviathan seems incredibly good vs Shops in general so this might be the way things need to go from here on out.

2. The Oath matchup: See #1.  Since Tidespout Tyrant is out of style, a good Ensnaring Bridge will shut down the attack of (possibly shrouded) Angels/Hydras.  Gargadon was fantastic when Tyrant Oath was the deck to beat, but now it seems too narrow.

Good call, re: Tyrant Oath. Seems that guy has been all but forgotten since Empyrial Archangel was printed.

What would you say are your worst matchups, and why?

[BC]

I made Top 8 at Pandemonium last weekend with Uba Stax.  List was almost the same as before.  I'll post, since it has been a few pages:

4 Bazaar
4 Workshop
4 Barbarian Ring
3 Mountain
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
9 Artifact Mana
4 Welder
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
4 Uba Mask
4 Chalice
4 Null Rod
3 Crucible
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere

SB:
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Ensnaring Bridge

A large percentage of the games I lost involved Inkwell Leviathan.  That guy is definitely our new worst enemy.  Ensnaring Bridge is absolutely necessary in the main as far as I'm concerned. 

This deck is as good as ever, especially in the current metagame.  I don't think there are any tier 1 or 2 decks that are really bad matchups.  I would say that the matchup I worry about the most is other Shop decks.  So much of the maindeck is bad against them, and it often comes down to Welder superiority, which I still mess up sometimes.  I think I'm going back to Viashino Heretic instead of R&R in the board.

[yespuhyren]

Ensnaring Bridge in the Main of EVERY ubastax deck should be a nobrainer period.  And Ubastax should not lose to Ichorid 99.9999% of the time if you are SB'ing Crypts/Fanatics and are playing bridges. 

[never]

I applaud Alan for taking the time to explain his position on this message board, as it seems like people sometimes forgot that stores stay open and stay successful because the owner treats it like a business.

If this guy only pays out 10% of the door, but it keeps his store open and keeps running events, we should be more than happy. He should take as much money off the top as he needs to keep his store running and to live a comfortable life and support his family. Who are we to criticize him for that?

[policehq]

Yeah, in South Carolina we don't have the luxury of being absolute dicks to tournament organizers that return our investment for Top 8 and multiply it for a Top 4, while everyone else still enjoys some Magic games.

[Tha Gunslinga]

So what you're saying is that we should just bend over and take it, and be thankful for it?

[oneofchaos]

I applaud Alan for taking the time to explain his position on this message board, as it seems like people sometimes forgot that stores stay open and stay successful because the owner treats it like a business.

If this guy only pays out 10% of the door, but it keeps his store open and keeps running events, we should be more than happy. He should take as much money off the top as he needs to keep his store running and to live a comfortable life and support his family. Who are we to criticize him for that?

So I guess we don't have comfortable lives to lead and none of us have families?

[never]

So I guess we don't have comfortable lives to lead and none of us have families?

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion, based on anything I said.

[policehq]

Note: do not try to win Magic: The Gathering tournaments to support your family.

[never]

So what you're saying is that we should just bend over and take it, and be thankful for it?

You should be thankful that people are running vintage events, yes. And you should be extra thankful that a mox and grim tutor were put up as prizes.

If you have a problem with the 5-8 prizes, Alan said he wouldn't mind listening to people's opinions on what could have been better options. That seems pretty fair to me.

[LordHomerCat]

I applaud Alan for taking the time to explain his position on this message board, as it seems like people sometimes forgot that stores stay open and stay successful because the owner treats it like a business.

If this guy only pays out 10% of the door, but it keeps his store open and keeps running events, we should be more than happy. He should take as much money off the top as he needs to keep his store running and to live a comfortable life and support his family. Who are we to criticize him for that?

Ya, I mean, far be it for me to actually expect a 'tournament' to actually give out prizes.  I mean, all the stores around here charge you $25 just to come play for the day anyway, so I should be happy if this one gives out some paltry amount of packs in return.  Oh wait, that's right, if I want to play for no money, I can do that anywhere and anytime I want.  We can criticize him all we want, and he can ignore it or respond to it all he wants.  Feedback is a good thing, and if he wants to ignore it, then fine, but other TO's in the area will see this and will realize what people actually want and will provide that (see places like Xtreme Games, Astro City, Ben's ICBM Opens to name a few) and will not try to make their players take it up the ass on prizes.  Why should TO's be above criticism?  If they do something I don't like, I will tell them about it, and they should be happy to hear it.  If everyone just stopped showing up instead of telling them how to get better, well, that doesn't seem like a good situation for them, so TO's should welcome player comments good or bad, because it will help them keep those players.

Good for him to keep his doors open, and if he can get people to show up to events with payout like this, well, not much I can do about that.  I live in Milwaukee so Pastimes is a local store for me Vintage-wise, and their events are now off my radar for the foreseeable future.

I am thankful for Vintage events, but not if they are just going to take my money and run with it.  As I said, if I don't want to play for prizes I can just play at my house or a local store.  I'm not driving an hour and spending $25 so the TO can take 50% of the money off the top.  He should be thankful that anyone plays in events like that.

There are TO's here who do it right and put up real prizes.  There are also TO's who do it wrong and treat players like crap and take a huge cut on prizes and price singles out of this world and garbage like that.  I am thankful for the first; in terms of the second, I won't go to their events, so why would I be thankful for them?  If Pastimes is gonna take 50% of the prizes, I am not showing up, so at that structure it doesn't make a difference to me if they run crap or not.

You guys should get over this notion that they are doing us a favor.  If you are unhappy with your TO, run your own events.  If there's a player base, get them to come play with you.  There's no reason to settle for being treated like garbage by your TO.

[never]

You guys should get over this notion that they are doing us a favor.  If you are unhappy with your TO, run your own events.  If there's a player base, get them to come play with you.  There's no reason to settle for being treated like garbage by your TO.

They are absolutely doing us a favor. A lot of time and effort goes into running a big tournament. All you have to do is show up and play and have fun. And if you do well, you'll be rewarded.

Although I totally agree with you, that if people have a problem with the way he runs events, they should run their own.

[policehq]

Constructive criticism is good! I think it's a good encouragement to make a policy of announcing what prizes will be. Player expectations are important, and unmet (even if unspoken) expectations result in feeling cheated. It's discouraging. If prizes were announced beforehand, there's little that could have been argued against this TO.

But... constructive criticism is not what took place here. A "fuck you," some racist comments, and an "I'll never come back" are not helpful.