Fish decks on the rise?

[ShiftyKapree]

Am I the only one who thinks this to be true. I have been noticing alot of change in the format. Seeing fish become more popular these days and Tezz ruling the Metagame. TPS still doing damage and utter brokenness. So anyone else think fish decks are on the rise or just more people are playing vintage on a budget?

[swawagon]

I think Fish has a pretty good TEZ matchup when you gun for it. Actually the same can be said for most decks, if Fish decides what it wants to beat it can focus and use the large Vintage card pool and attack a certain deck with success. It's just that with too tight a focus other matchups get weaker. And Fish doesn't have a busted 'oops I win!' play to just randomly beat bad matchups.

[Smmenen]

Fish decks have been consistently 9-11% of Vintage top 8s since the June, 2008 restrictions.   

[vassago]

Since fish deck tend to pack null rod, regardless of which specific build it is, that makes it really good right now.  I think the disruptive tempo style decks can really excel in a format if fine tuned to the meta at the local areas.  Smasher plays a RWB fish deck that gets talked about in the TMWA thread and it can be down right vicious. Unfortunately, these decks tend to be really draw dependent. 

Fish decks have been consistently 9-11% of Vintage top 8s since the June, 2008 restrictions.  

I didnt actually have this information available, but I barely think such a small percentage goes to implicate "on the rise." I dont know the older percentages, but I think it has been played about as much as it was before.

[policehq]

Fish decks have been consistently 9-11% of Vintage top 8s since the June, 2008 restrictions.   

This doesn't say anything about the Swiss. Popularity and success are different things, and whether Fish was rising in popularity seems to be the original question.

[Smmenen]

Since fish deck tend to pack null rod, regardless of which specific build it is, that makes it really good right now.  I think the disruptive tempo style decks can really excel in a format this format if fine tuned to the meta at the local areas.  Smasher plays a RWB fish deck that gets talked about in the TMWA thread and it can be down right vicious. Unfortunately, these decks tend to be really draw dependent. 

Fish decks have been consistently 9-11% of Vintage top 8s since the June, 2008 restrictions.  

I didnt actually have this information available, but I barely think such a small percentage goes to implicate "on the rise." I dont know the older percentages, but I think it has been played about as much as it was before.

That's not a small percentage.  That actually puts Fish in the top couple of decks.  Sometimes a deck that performs just over 10% is the best performing deck in Vintage. 

Fish decks have been consistently 9-11% of Vintage top 8s since the June, 2008 restrictions.   

This doesn't say anything about the Swiss. Popularity and success are different things, and whether Fish was rising in popularity seems to be the original question.

Of course, but the two feed each other. 

[Nehptis]

Of course Fish is on the rise.  It has been historically the "anti-metagame" deck (think Sullivan Solution and how/when it was designed).  When one strategy becomes very popular Fish rises as its naturally enemy.  Today, we are in a heavy Drain/Vault/Key meta.  So, Rod/Fish decks are popular since they fair well against the most common deck in the format.  Historically, in a diverse meta Fish decks become less popular because they don't fair well against a lot of different strategies all at the same time.

However, as more tools are available to Fish and as its own strategy evolves Fish is slowly breaking the mold of being an "anti-meta deck" and is starting to take on an identity of its own.  I think Tarm was a card that helped push Fish in the direction of "You must beat me <Fish> on my terms vs. I'm going to negate your strategy but do that on your terms."

The Landstill deck that won Blue Bell recently, is another example of a Fish deck that further defines Fish as a "Deck to Beat" in the most generic sense vs. Fish being simply a strategy to beat the most popular deck, e.g., Tezz.

[Stormanimagus]

Of course Fish is on the rise.  It has been historically the "anti-metagame" deck (think Sullivan Solution and how/when it was designed).  When one strategy becomes very popular Fish rises as its naturally enemy.  Today, we are in a heavy Drain/Vault/Key meta.  So, Rod/Fish decks are popular since they fair well against the most common deck in the format.  Historically, in a diverse meta Fish decks become less popular because they don't fair well against a lot of different strategies all at the same time.

However, as more tools are available to Fish and as its own strategy evolves Fish is slowly breaking the mold of being an "anti-meta deck" and is starting to take on an identity of its own.  I think Tarm was a card that helped push Fish in the direction of "You must beat me <Fish> on my terms vs. I'm going to negate your strategy but do that on your terms."

The Landstill deck that won Blue Bell recently, is another example of a Fish deck that further defines Fish as a "Deck to Beat" in the most generic sense vs. Fish being simply a strategy to beat the most popular deck, e.g., Tezz.

I agree with this assessment. I think Tarmogoyf alone has significantly decreased the possibility of draws for fish players and is a major reason I'm willing to give my Fish deck a try at a major tournament. I HAAATE drawing, and yet, when I try to play controllish decks like Landstill I tend to do just that. Tarmogoyf gives you a topdeck that can help you avoid a draw even when the game has gone to turns. That's a powerful thing that Fish never used to have available to it.

I also think Fish needs to have a focus on what its trying to accomplish and I think Mana-Denial is one of the most powerful things it can do. We have many tools for that that also hate on the best decks out there in other ways. Stife + Waste, Cursecatcher, Daze and Null Rod are all excellent tools for mana denial.

I also really think the Noble Hierarch + Cold-Eyed Selkie synergy cannot be overlooked. It's a bit unproven, but I have faith that it will be pretty amazing in practice. Noble Hierarch also kills in the mirror when you have a Tarmogoyf out against their Tarmogoyf and the exalted +1/+1 puts you over the top and allows you to attack with impunity.

I still think Meddling Mage is the best answer you have to Oath and Tinker, and I realize that those two strategies give Fish headaches, but I feel if you devote your SB enough to them you'll have a chance. Seal Of Primordium, Aven Mindcensor and Hurkyl's Recall are all viable answers to those strategies and should be employed in some numbers in the SB

Do I think Fish is on the rise? Yes. The onus is still on the deck-builder to account for as many matchups as possible in his/her design while not making the deck unfocused or unsyergistic.

[ShiftyKapree]

I believe U/W with the splash of green makes the best choice for any fish player. Anyone else feel the same or do you think BUG is better.

[Diakonov]

I would suggest starting a new thread with that title if you want to discuss that.  This thread was on its way out.

[zeus-online]

I think that a correctly meta-gamed fish deck has a really good chance, as always, but meta-gaming it requires you to seriously consider your colors.

Tarmogoyf is good, but against combo i'd rather have white for the cannonist...and i'd probably always have the confidants regardless of the other colors, which would mean that i'd play UBx anytime.

/Zeus

[Guli]

I didn't want to make a whole new topic about aggro control. I think the Alara set in general has some very nice new creatures that will be very useful for future aggro control. How big of an effect will the newly printed creatures have?

Noble Hierarch is not to be underestimated. Won't say too much on this guy. Go test it.

Sen Triplets IS a creature and is a good tinker target. The card is being discussed in a thread right now. Most of the comments are in the lines of utilizing it like slaver but let's not forget that some fish variants ran tinker/DC in the past. How would Sen Triplets fit in aggro control?

Qasali Pridemage is a walking disenchant. Finally! The sac requirement is only 1 mana and his ability has no tapping so no summoning sickness.


Vedalken Heretic  1/1 - Whenever Vedalken Heretic deals damage to an opponent, you may draw a card.
Interesting card if you ask me. It needs to connect of course and has a small body and no evade. But it is only 2 mana. I don't recall any creature next to Dark Confidant that has a CMC  and has the potential to get an extra card/turn. But let's bee honest, for 1 mana he would be overpowered. Or if it had flying that would be possibly too strong too. So you can't make it cheaper than that.

Knotvine Paladin  2/2
Creature - Human Knight   Rare
Whenever Knotvine Paladin attacks, it gets +1/+1 for each untapped creature you control.
This has some potential as a clock.

I didn't check out every card yet of the new sets but so far as a fish player I am happy with what we get.

[nineisnoone]

knotvine doesn't seem playable.

heretic seems excellent though. i could see it replacing Confidant in fish lists that want to run or and cut the black.  or in the alternative you could run them both. 

overall, i'd say it is *slightly* weaker than Confidant.  most creature decks are running green for 'goyf anyways and being blue is actually a big plus.  not to mention it doesn't hurt you.  however, it only is 1 power and it's need to connect bring it down a little bit. 

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

Well, Ninja is an uncounterable 2/2 creature for 1U with haste (and the drawback of returning a one drop to your hand). I think that's better.

[grandpoohbah19]

Qasali Pridemage seems like by far the best reborn card fish is going to get. GW 2/2 1, Sac: destroy artifact of enchantment

[LennoxLewis86]

Soms good posts here, I too think Fish decks are on the rise. Fish is good vs. Tez but bad vs. TPS. The restriction of Brainstorm has not only murdered Flashdecks. Tps lost a lot of librarycontrol too.
As for the colors, I agree with the UBx metagame depended idea. A real fishdeck should consist of 80 cards and when it's time to play you remove 20 cards of deadweight. If I were a Fisherman, I'd test and master different builds and bring every card to a tournament.
I also like Ninja but don't like the small creatures that come with the package but then again, I know too little about Fish.
Confidant would be an auto-include for me, it helps keeping up with stronger decks. The ability happens, little strings attached. So more time for developing a good board as well as some good hate.

[the_lord_shaper]

Qasali Pridemage seems like by far the best reborn card fish is going to get. GW 2/2 1, Sac: destroy artifact of enchantment

Nope. I think that honor goes to Vedalken Heretic.

[nineisnoone]

Qasali Pridemage seems like by far the best reborn card fish is going to get. GW 2/2 1, Sac: destroy artifact of enchantment.

Nope. I think that honor goes to Vedalken Heretic.

Definitely.  Though Pridemage is excellent. 

Though, it's not exactly hard to find an answer for it though.  If I am UB Control/Combo, then I'm always going to be running a singleton Darkblast in the main deck for Heretic/Confidant.  So I don't think this will push fish strategies too over the top.  But it's good to have some more options.

[Guli]

I don't agree, but it is a close call. I think the Pridemage is better. It is a walking seal of cleansing which will put oath and Vault/Key in an unpleasant position. I think even Tezz will not be happy when you cast (i will vial him in but that is just my specific situation) him. And against shop you have a nice tool to nail a key artifact.

However i want to note something. If indeed they are forced to find an answer to Heretic then imo Hereitc has done its job. But heretic is only good against control I think. He isn't going to see a lot of good times against aggro. Ichorid hardly cares. Combo doesn't read Heretic as a threat an can pursue the win. Shop doesn't really care either i think. Confidants strength is that you always see your card. Heretic is a 1/1 with some chance to draw a card but there is absolutely no guarantee. Oath also has no problems with Heretic.

STILL only for 2 mana 1/turn is nice but will it happen or is it fast enough? That is why I am not fond of ninja. He doesn't insure me the extra card.

I am wondering how you guys see him in action. Turn 1 Heretic with daze or force seems like a nice way to start but yea how often will that happen?

[Guli]

They are giving us another super interesting card. (If the rumor is true)

Mistwalker Behemoth 
Creature - Beast   Uncommon 5/6
When Mistwalker Behemoth comes into play, return a creature you control to its owner's hand.

Lot's of creatures can go back to hand without a setback. Jotun Grunt to restore counters, Meddling Mage to rename, and there are the 1 drops that are being used with Ninja.

[nineisnoone]

Personally, I would play Ninja over Behemoth.  And I would almost never play Ninja.

[grandpoohbah19]

Yeah behemoth seems like overpriced Goyf's 5-8 with a bad draw back IMO.

Pridemage vs. Heretic to me depends on a few things. Do you play Bob? If so then pridemage is better because heretic isn't needed. If you're not playing Bob then heretic is probably better than Pridemage because its ability you need more. I really think the lack of evasion hurts alot. I personally feel that Islandwalk for an extra mana makes cold eye selkie better, even if you disagree it's only marginally better than Selkie and it's not as though Selkie is tearing it up.

Really though I see very few situations where Heretic would be better. Sure if you wait a turn it might draw you a card, (two turns maybe 2, 3 maybe 3, etc) and find you answers but the only situation I see this helping more than pridemage is against combo. Otherwise they can either block heretic or pridemage is an answer. People able to pitch to force is about the only other advantage I see.

[Guli]

Personally, I would play Ninja over Behemoth.  And I would almost never play Ninja.

And why would you pick ninja over behemoth?

eah behemoth seems like overpriced Goyf's 5-8 with a bad draw back IMO.

I have had many games with a 1/2 goyf as well. Goyf doesn't always get huge it is a situational card. Why suddenly compare to goyf anyway? 3 for 5/6 AND able to reuse some 'comes into play' utility creatures doesn't seem that bad to me. To me it is an interesting alternative. They say one of the reasons that fish should run Goyf is not to die against opposing goyfs.

It is too early to dismiss cards guys, i think it is wrong. I am throwing these newly printed cards into this thread to think about them, not to judge over them. Like you guys are masters in this game seeing patterns and predicting the future. I really don't like the close minded harsh remarks sorry...

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

I think that Heretic is a card that will show how strong it is over time with testing, while Pridemage will always be thrown in to any GW deck as a playset between the maindeck and sideboard. It stops key/vault, it beats for 2, it is gold against Oath and Shops, and it wins goyf wars with Exalted. In my opinion Heretic just isn't good enough without some type of built-in evasion or 2 power.

Behemoth would be worth running if it had Flash in my opinion as a double protection+fatty but as it is nineisnoone put it perfectly. Drawing 2 cards before behemoth connects is why even a bad card like ninja is better. Maybe as a sideboard option against other fish decks if the matchup is problematic or something.

[TopSecret]

To clarify, Mistwalker Behemoth was just changed to Nulltread Gargantuan on the mtgSalvation Spoiler
and now puts your creature on top of the library.

[honestabe]

BANT (BUG) fish if feel is on its way to the top of the list.  Especially due to the fact that it can support the best fish creatures, and it can be tweaked to fare well against any deck

[Guli]

To clarify, Mistwalker Behemoth was just changed to Nulltread Gargantuan on the mtgSalvation Spoiler
and now puts your creature on top of the library.

Thought something was wrong anyway. Looked strong to me otherwise. Makes sense now.

The new name is Nulltread Gargantuan  btw

[nineisnoone]

Personally, I would play Ninja over Behemoth.  And I would almost never play Ninja.

And why would you pick ninja over behemoth?

Draws 1 per turn (maybe).  Costs 2.  Easier mana requirements.  Uncounterable. 
Behemnoth/Gargantuan is also counter productive strategically, i.e. you lose speed because you just bounced one of your own creatures.

This was when I thought it put it into your hand.  Now that it topdecks your creatures, it's pretty much unplayable.