B&R, 20. March 2K9

[Qube]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/30a

there are no changes...

What do you think about this?

I'm a bit disappointed, because I hoped for some unrestrictions, as I think there are too much cards on the list which shouldn't be there.

[Frenger]

I was disappointed with the fact that they left vintage out of their explanation article, despite all the good news included in it for Legacy. I would have liked to see some unrestrictions as well as there are definitely some cards that can safely come off (I'm looking at you Grim Monolith).

Also, is it with this announcement that they usually announce reerattas or is that some other time?

[Qube]

I was disappointed with the fact that they left vintage out of their explanation article, despite all the good news included in it for Legacy. I would have liked to see some unrestrictions as well as there are definitely some cards that can safely come off (I'm looking at you Grim Monolith).

That isn't funny of the DCI to not mention the Vintage... I do not like that they focus on the online and also the formats like legacy or extendet but not on vintage...

Now we have to wait another quarter-year and hope for the next B&R-list date...

[madlucas]

Thanks God they didn't change anything!!

[Nehptis]

WOW, just WOW.  And I'm not referring to the fact that there were no change in Restrictions or Unrestrictions.  That is a matter of choice for the DCI and a matter of opinion for us.  Obvioulsy, I would have liked to see some B&R changes.

But, I am extremely dissappointed in the fact that Vintage gets ZERO explaination in the accompanying B&R article.  That is just another slap in the face to our format.  And frankly another indication that we are little more than a casual format to them.

I hope this "non-action" really opens up the eyes to those TMDERs who have posted things like "Contrary to belief WOTC/DCI does care about Vintage."  The burden of proof is clearly on your shoulders.  I don't feel any love from them towards Vintage what-so-ever.

[Troy_Costisick]

Had it not been for the GP in Chicago, I'd be willing to bet Legacy would have gotten short shrift too.  Since WotC only hold 1 Vintage event a year, they don't give themselves a lot of data to go on.  I wonder, though, if any information about Vintage tournaments are making back to them through the Gateway program.  Surely, there's some small TOs out there using it for Vintage.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Is it just me or is the MTGO Classic format just a bastardized version of Vintage? 4xNecropotence, 4xDark Ritual, 4xDemonic Consultation, 4xLED, 1xVampiric Tutor, 1xImperial Seal, 1xDemonic Tutor, 4xMind's Desire can't possibly be a healthy format. I mean:

However, powerful cards like Necropotence, Demonic Consultation, and Skullclamp that are banned in Legacy continue to run free in Classic.

SKULLCLAMP? REALLY? Necropotence is being compared to Skullclamp I mean wow. How is this format getting more attention than Vintage seriously?

Not to mention once they reach the Urza block in online printing they'll get fun like Yawgmoth's Will/Bargain alongside these busted 4-ofs. At this point they'll probably start restricting everything that is restricted in Vintage for Online classic also and then maybe us Vintage players can get a word in. Then again:

Magic Online Classic is a unique and fun experience that none of our paper formats replicate, and I highly recommend it to anyone who hasn't played it before.

Clearly shows that this is all just about making money selling online cards. It can't possibly be that much different from either Vintage or Legacy. Either that or the guy who wrote the article knows absolutely nothing about the Eternal formats in which case I'm not sure how offended I should be.

WOW, just WOW.  And I'm not referring to the fact that there were no change in Restrictions or Unrestrictions.  That is a matter of choice for the DCI and a matter of opinion for us.  Obvioulsy, I would have liked to see some B&R changes.

But, I am extremely dissappointed in the fact that Vintage gets ZERO explaination in the accompanying B&R article.  That is just another slap in the face to our format.  And frankly another indication that we are little more than a casual format to them.

I hope this "non-action" really opens up the eyes to those TMDERs who have posted things like "Contrary to belief WOTC/DCI does care about Vintage."  The burden of proof is clearly on your shoulders.  I don't feel any love from them towards Vintage what-so-ever.

Agreed, WotC clearly doesn't care at all about Vintage.

[Ufactor]

Has anyone else noticed that they make three "non-updates" per year, only to gut the format like a lake trout on the fourth...?  I say this because I can't shake the feeling that, in June, they are going to restrict four cards while simultaneously unrestricting four other cards... AGAIN.  I just wish that they would spread these things out to make it interesting.

[Arsenal]

Why are you guys getting so upset?  GP: Chicago was just a couple weeks ago and it had the largest GP attendance ever.  Of course Wizards is going to give Legacy some attention in it's articles.  Stop this "woe is me" nonsense and use your heads.  Seriously.

[Purple Hat]

Has anyone else noticed that they make three "non-updates" per year, only to gut the format like a lake trout on the fourth...?  I say this because I can't shake the feeling that, in June, they are going to restrict four cards while simultaneously unrestricting four other cards... AGAIN.  I just wish that they would spread these things out to make it interesting.

Especially because the wholesale strategy they're adopting now makes it impossible to judge the effect of any change they make.

I was encouraged by the fact that they seem to be learning, even if only from classic, that "broken" doesn't mean unbalanced or unfun.

Also, for a format full of ridiculous cards, it's shockingly balanced and healthy.

I suspect though that if people aren't wrecking house with efficient necro decks then they're building their decks horribly horribly wrong.

[Nehptis]

Why are you guys getting so upset?  GP: Chicago was just a couple weeks ago and it had the largest GP attendance ever.  Of course Wizards is going to give Legacy some attention in it's articles.  Stop this "woe is me" nonsense and use your heads.  Seriously.

I hope I'm just not understanding you correctly.  Are you suggesting that we are unjustly complaining about getting no attention?  Of course, Legacy should get attention in the article.  But, so should Vintage.

It can't possibly be that much different from either Vintage or Legacy. Either that or the guy who wrote the article knows absolutely nothing about the Eternal formats in which case I'm not sure how offended I should be.

Yes, I am offended.  I refuse to accept the excuse that the author knows nothing about Vintage.  If your intention as an author is to be comprehensive (maybe his purposely was not!) and you do not know about something when writing an article, then I have one word for you RESEARCH.  There is plently of adequate tourney info out there between sites like TMD, Morphling, etc.  In my opinion no effort was made, because WOTC/DCI do NOT care about Vintage.  I'll take it a step further and suggest that not only do they not care, they wish that Vintage would simply fade away into casual-ness and the serious Vintage player pool members would fold into Legacy / MTGO Classic...period.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Has anyone else noticed that they make three "non-updates" per year, only to gut the format like a lake trout on the fourth...?  I say this because I can't shake the feeling that, in June, they are going to restrict four cards while simultaneously unrestricting four other cards... AGAIN.  I just wish that they would spread these things out to make it interesting.

Especially because the wholesale strategy they're adopting now makes it impossible to judge the effect of any change they make.

I was encouraged by the fact that they seem to be learning, even if only from classic, that "broken" doesn't mean unbalanced or unfun.

Also, for a format full of ridiculous cards, it's shockingly balanced and healthy.

I suspect though that if people aren't wrecking house with efficient necro decks then they're building their decks horribly horribly wrong.

http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=772

Look at the kind of decks they're making. Nuff said.

[yespuhyren]

I saw a topic called Manabarbs Clerics....I closed the window immediately....

[Qube]

I ask me a questions after the restriction in june: "why we had to play magic after rules of somebody (DCI) who doesn't care about vintage?" Now I have similiar thoughts...

After that I played a goldfish with my Empty Gush a Warrens.dec (remember: Fastbond, Gush, Brainstorm, Gush, Merchant Scroll, Gush, Ponder, ... Yawgmoth's Will -> all a second one -> GG).
Those deck where more funny than anything else  and shouldn't MTG be fun???...

[Dr. Horrible]

They devoted an entire image to us, and isn't that worth a thousand words or some such.



The image contains only Vintage relevant cards.

Clearly, they care.

[Lurker101]

I was disappointed that at least Grim Monolith didn't come off and Gush and Flash and maybe Ponder too.

[mike_bergeron]

I was disappointed that at least Grim Monolith didn't come off and Gush and Flash and maybe Ponder too.

Wizard's did not want to interfere with Waterbury. 

[Ufactor]

Wizard's did not want to interfere with Waterbury. 

Right.  That makes next to zero sense.

Of course they should do nothing with this round of updates, then some mass restrictions every June.  That way they can foul up Origins, Worlds, the summer Waterbury event, and a pair of SCG tournaments.  Everyone wins!!

[geckoskin]

Is it just me or is the MTGO Classic format just a bastardized version of Vintage? 4xNecropotence, 4xDark Ritual, 4xDemonic Consultation, 4xLED, 1xVampiric Tutor, 1xImperial Seal, 1xDemonic Tutor, 4xMind's Desire can't possibly be a healthy format. I mean:

it's a lot more like a bastardized version of legacy.

However, powerful cards like Necropotence, Demonic Consultation, and Skullclamp that are banned in Legacy continue to run free in Classic.

SKULLCLAMP? REALLY? Necropotence is being compared to Skullclamp I mean wow. How is this format getting more attention than Vintage seriously?

Not to mention once they reach the Urza block in online printing they'll get fun like Yawgmoth's Will/Bargain alongside these busted 4-ofs. At this point they'll probably start restricting everything that is restricted in Vintage for Online classic also and then maybe us Vintage players can get a word in.

you just touched on part of the reason why you are wrong. yes, urza's broken block is not in the format. you know what else is not in the format? fast mana. no moxes, no lotus, no sol ring, no mana vault. know what else is not in the format? bazaar of baghdad and mishra's workshop. vintage is so ridiculous because not only do you have a ton of ridiculous spells, but you can consistently cast them way earlier than you should be able to. no artifact mana means the game is slower, and you have to wait and cast those spells when they are less auto-win. lion's eye diamond is a lot less awesome with no yawg will, too.

Magic Online Classic is a unique and fun experience that none of our paper formats replicate, and I highly recommend it to anyone who hasn't played it before.

Clearly shows that this is all just about making money selling online cards. It can't possibly be that much different from either Vintage or Legacy. Either that or the guy who wrote the article knows absolutely nothing about the Eternal formats in which case I'm not sure how offended I should be.

as i stated above, online classic is SIGNIFICANTLY different from legacy or vintage. can you not see how artifact mana makes vintage so much different? you would have a better argument saying it is a legacy clone, but even there you have some noticable differences. so many cards are still missing. no bazaar for dredge. no mishra's workshop. no land tax. no timetwister or wheel of fortune. there's no freaking mana drain, man!! MANA DRAIN!!

i really don't see how you can argue that online classic is anything but its own unique format.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Is it just me or is the MTGO Classic format just a bastardized version of Vintage? 4xNecropotence, 4xDark Ritual, 4xDemonic Consultation, 4xLED, 1xVampiric Tutor, 1xImperial Seal, 1xDemonic Tutor, 4xMind's Desire can't possibly be a healthy format. I mean:

it's a lot more like a bastardized version of legacy.

However, powerful cards like Necropotence, Demonic Consultation, and Skullclamp that are banned in Legacy continue to run free in Classic.

SKULLCLAMP? REALLY? Necropotence is being compared to Skullclamp I mean wow. How is this format getting more attention than Vintage seriously?

Not to mention once they reach the Urza block in online printing they'll get fun like Yawgmoth's Will/Bargain alongside these busted 4-ofs. At this point they'll probably start restricting everything that is restricted in Vintage for Online classic also and then maybe us Vintage players can get a word in.

you just touched on part of the reason why you are wrong. yes, urza's broken block is not in the format. you know what else is not in the format? fast mana. no moxes, no lotus, no sol ring, no mana vault. know what else is not in the format? bazaar of baghdad and mishra's workshop. vintage is so ridiculous because not only do you have a ton of ridiculous spells, but you can consistently cast them way earlier than you should be able to. no artifact mana means the game is slower, and you have to wait and cast those spells when they are less auto-win. lion's eye diamond is a lot less awesome with no yawg will, too.

Are you serious? LED is insane with tutors and somehow this format is considered balanced allowing you to run 9xDemonic Tutors (4xInfernal+4xConsultation+1xDemonic). I mean yeah you're right though there is no fast mana like 4xDark Ritual+4xCabal Ritual+4xChrome Mox+4xSSG+4xLED+1xMana Crypt. That is all really slow mana right? I don't see how a combo deck in that format couldn't get a 95% turn 3 goldfish with Duress/Thoughtsieze backup. Any hand with tutor+LED would goldfish turn 2 off Necro or God forbid you get a bit more mana and just tutor for Mind's Desire and chain your whole deck on turn 1. I would trade Yawgmoth's Will for the combo elements in that format any day. Luckily it seems like the people who play there are a tad slow with jank like manabarb clerics.

Magic Online Classic is a unique and fun experience that none of our paper formats replicate, and I highly recommend it to anyone who hasn't played it before.

Clearly shows that this is all just about making money selling online cards. It can't possibly be that much different from either Vintage or Legacy. Either that or the guy who wrote the article knows absolutely nothing about the Eternal formats in which case I'm not sure how offended I should be.

as i stated above, online classic is SIGNIFICANTLY different from legacy or vintage. can you not see how artifact mana makes vintage so much different? you would have a better argument saying it is a legacy clone, but even there you have some noticable differences. so many cards are still missing. no bazaar for dredge. no mishra's workshop. no land tax. no timetwister or wheel of fortune. there's no freaking mana drain, man!! MANA DRAIN!!

i really don't see how you can argue that online classic is anything but its own unique format.

No, that format is Vintage with 4xNecropotence and 4xLED legal. You would be stupid to play Drains/Shops/Bazaars/Land Tax(lol you mean Oath) instead of combo so those cards may as well not even be legal. Why would you play jank like draw-7s to refill your opponent's hand when you can run 9xDemonic Tutors+1xVampiric+1xImperial and 4xNecropotence for a 1-sided draw-12 every single turn 2? The lack of moxen in the format just makes playing hate decks impossible since your opponent is running 4x the amount of acceleration you are you won't consistantly drop a threat anywhere near fast enough. By the time you can even cast Meddling Mage or Tarmogoyf the guy has already put 1/3 of his deck in his hand. Guess why Consultation and Necropotence are banned in Legacy.

[geckoskin]

Are you serious? LED is insane with tutors and somehow this format is considered balanced allowing you to run 9xDemonic Tutors (4xInfernal+4xConsultation+1xDemonic). I mean yeah you're right though there is no fast mana like 4xDark Ritual+4xCabal Ritual+4xChrome Mox+4xSSG+4xLED+1xMana Crypt. That is all really slow mana right? I don't see how a combo deck in that format couldn't get a 95% turn 3 goldfish with Duress/Thoughtsieze backup. Any hand with tutor+LED would goldfish turn 2 off Necro or God forbid you get a bit more mana and just tutor for Mind's Desire and chain your whole deck on turn 1. I would trade Yawgmoth's Will for the combo elements in that format any day. Luckily it seems like the people who play there are a tad slow with jank like manabarb clerics.

let's say that your above statement is correct, and online classic is a combo player's wet dream. do you realize that would just prove your previous post wrong? you were claiming that the format was just vintage, but here you show how it is WAY MORE busted than vintage, playing 4-ofs that should be restricted.

No, that format is Vintage with 4xNecropotence and 4xLED legal. You would be stupid to play Drains/Shops/Bazaars/Land Tax(lol you mean Oath) instead of combo so those cards may as well not even be legal. Why would you play jank like draw-7s to refill your opponent's hand when you can run 9xDemonic Tutors+1xVampiric+1xImperial and 4xNecropotence for a 1-sided draw-12 every single turn 2? The lack of moxen in the format just makes playing hate decks impossible since your opponent is running 4x the amount of acceleration you are you won't consistantly drop a threat anywhere near fast enough. By the time you can even cast Meddling Mage or Tarmogoyf the guy has already put 1/3 of his deck in his hand. Guess why Consultation and Necropotence are banned in Legacy.

right, because necro and LED are the cards that define vintage. mana drain? bazaar? workshop? no, those don't define vintage at all. how silly of me to think otherwise.

you are arguing that online classic is a busted degenerate format, which may be the case, but even if it is it looks nothing like today's vintage.

[Rock Lee]

Oh man. I feel like I need to drag T00L over here to make this observing of a Nerd-Rage-War that much more MST3K satisfying.

Encore!

(                                                                          )  <--- This section is devoted for DA to include his angry comment to me.

[Demonic Attorney]

Thank you, everyone, for once again demonstrating why B/R discussions are no longer allowed outside the Advanced Vintage Forum.  I continue to be amazed at the ability of nothing to engender bitter disagreement and contentless spam. Locked.