[Free Article] So Many Insane Plays -- Reviving Vintage

[Smmenen]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/17339_So_Many_Insane_Plays_Reviving_Vintage.html

This article is my three step set of recommendations for fixing the problems that currently plague Vintage.   I've spent 4 months carefully thinking about these issues, drafting and revising this article so that it is tightly reasoned, carefully argued, and comprehensive yet terse.    

I don't want this article to become a platform for the sort of free-wheeling, less-than-thoughtful responses we saw in response to Ben Bleiweiss's.  Please tailor your comments to the issues actually raised in this article, and not on other issues.  If there are pointed questions or thoughtful responses, I will be happy to comment on them or respond in turn.  

This is a very important issue, and I hope that the Vintage community considers my recommendations, even if there is disagreement.  

Thanks for your consideration,

Stephen Menendian

[Yare]

Edit: Putting it more politely and intelligently than I had it before:

With respect, how can "the Vintage community" discuss the minutia of your plan if we can't read it? I mean, if this is really about saving the format, I fail to see why it needs to be premium. Pay money to find out how to make a format that is too expensive more accessible?

I'd love to discuss this with you, but I won't be able to for three months, which was kind of the same deal where I was talking in the dark over on Bleiweiss's proxy article thread.

[aosquirrels]

Steve,

Just read your article.  You hit a tough to find nail right on the head.  I have been an advocate of what you have discussued in the article for at least three years now.  I truly regret running proxy events over the last year at Black Gold (thanks for mentioning my store by the way).  It is strictly no-proxy for me from now on.  The process of getting players to want this may be slow but will be well worth it sooner than the vintage community may think.   

Carl

[Smmenen]

Edit: Putting it more politely and intelligently than I had it before:

With respect, how can "the Vintage community" discuss the minutia of your plan if we can't read it? I mean, if this is really about saving the format, I fail to see why it needs to be premium. Pay money to find out how to make a format that is too expensive more accessible?

I'd love to discuss this with you, but I won't be able to for three months, which was kind of the same deal where I was talking in the dark over on Bleiweiss's proxy article thread.

Unfortunately, Premium is the price paid for getting a weekly column on Vintage.   The good news is that premium actually costs about $5 per month, which is roughly $1.25 per article per person.   It's actually less if you buy it on a quarterly or annual basis.  Not exactly a barrier to entry.   Of course I'm biased but I think that my tournament reports, set reviews, and primers are worth it.   

[Yare]

Of course I'm biased but I think that my tournament reports, set reviews, and primers are worth it.   

I don't deny that one should have to pay for things like those you list above. I'm saying this is outside that realm. You didn't even list this sort of article in your own list of things that people should pay for.

In any case, I guess I'll talk to you about this in three months.

[Smmenen]

Of course I'm biased but I think that my tournament reports, set reviews, and primers are worth it.   

I don't deny that you should have to pay for things like those you list above. I'm saying this is outside that realm. You didn't even list this sort of article in your own list of things that people should pay for.

My list was not intended to be exclusive or complete.   For example, bimonthly metagame reports are also premium.  "Issues" articles have been premium just as strategic articles are.  As I said, it's the price paid for a weekly Vintage column.   Anyone with $5 and a credit card can read it, my entire article backlog, and another months worth of articles. 

[Yare]

Of course I'm biased but I think that my tournament reports, set reviews, and primers are worth it.   

I don't deny that you should have to pay for things like those you list above. I'm saying this is outside that realm. You didn't even list this sort of article in your own list of things that people should pay for.

My list was not intended to be exclusive or complete.   For example, bimonthly metagame reports are also premium.  "Issues" articles have been premium just as strategic articles are.  As I said, it's the price paid for a weekly Vintage column.   Anyone with $5 and a credit card can read it, my entire article backlog, and another months worth of articles. 

My issue articles were all free and I didn't get paid for them.

In any case, I don't want to go round and round because I don't want to completely derail the thread since some people can read it and can discuss your article, so I'm going to "yield the floor" so to speak. I just wanted to express my disapproval in this particular instance, I've done that, so I'm going to let it go.

[Stormanimagus]

So Steve,

I think your article was insightful and, ultimately (though this is painful for me to say as an owner of 0 power nine), correct. I want you to understand a few big picture points though before you rush into these 3 steps as the only good implementations to affect change.

1. Many of the long time Vintage players holding the format together by the thinnest of the threads right now are the guys who like to show up to TMD Opens and the like (in America, at least) and many of them are in there mid-late twenties or older. Magic is an incredibly fun and skill-intensive game, but many, including myself, don't have the time to frequent tournaments. I've always liked that, because of the combination of proxies and a existing staples that keep the format somewhat grounded I can dip in and out of Vintage on a bi-annual basis and still feel competitive at each tournament I go to. This is due to the fact that I have a basic understanding of the format and even though newly printed cards may change that I know that my old guns will probably be competitive. I've seen many a control slaver play do well at tournaments with a slightly tweaked list of something they played 4 years ago. Heck, Travis played his same old Crucible + Stax shenanigans this year with a freaking War Mammoth and still did well! (WTF on that by the way ). My point is that this sort of casual attachment to the game is actually a selling point for more players than you might think and you'll alienate some of them if you require them to take more "stock" in Vintage. I'm not saying I'd do that, but I'm busy right now living in New York trying to make it as an actor and I'm not sure I'd be willing to make a big investment in the game right now monetarily over, say, rent and/or studio acting classes. I like that Vintage players have other lives. It makes them feel like real people that I can relate to and talk to and not just gaming junkies with no social skills.

2. This is a more "big picture" business point. Even with CE made legal would that increase the number of copies of power in circulation enough to make a difference in comparison to say. . . Standard? I mean, there's a critical difference, I understand, in that Standard rotates frequently so the number of prints doesn't NEED to be big to have a balanced format, but there's another reason it works for Standard to the have the print run they do: They don't have a set of staple cards that you see played OVER and OVER and OVER again the way power is. This is a problem. In Standard you do have to spend money more often, but you never really have to worry about owning "The Staples." If you own the stuff for Faeries you play Faeries, and if you own the pieces for Tokens you play that and if you own the stuff for some Doran deck you play that, but you know that, if you are a good deck-builder and have measured the metagame correctly you'll be able to compete. In order for Vintage to make a larger boom into the magic scene and begin to make up ground on Standard the teams at Wizards need to take into account the number of copies of power that are currently in circulation. One has to assume that some folks have buried them and do not play with them any more, or that some are in cases at a store for sale, but that number should be pretty small (I'd assume) so one could guesstimate that 75% of the power out there is probably being sleeved up at Vintage Tournaments. This number is not drawn from any data but you can be sure there are people hoarding power out there and not playing with it.

***ASIDE***I want you to understand that I'm basically in agreement with you and I'm just playing devil's advocate to raise the questions that will need addressing before we can go forward. BTW, I'm Noah, the one who placed 6th at the TMD Open with the Selkie Deck. Now there's a deck that could easily be played on 5-proxies and could most likely be solid on 0 proxies as well. I think the 5-proxy thing would be a decent first step as players like me could still design optimal "budget" decks that could eventually take there place alongside fully powered decks when the pilots of the decks/technology of the decks catch up to those of the fully powered archetypes. I hope I've done my part in jump-starting this by using a somewhat fresh strategy in Noble Hierarch + Cold-Eyed Selkie. I mean, who would have thunk that juiced up Birds Of Paradise and a better Ophidian could make a splash on the Vintage scene? I made it work through many drafts of the deck (the deck could still be better designed I think) and a little intuition and faith.

3. If you truly want Vintage to be like Chess and give players an opportunity to be on an equal playing field with the option of any deck you need to make sure that access is possible with a commitment from players. If I knew I could get a full set of power without necessarily denying someone else that set of power than I'd go for it more whole-heartedly. The issue I have is getting back to my point number 2. Wizards needs to make sure that there is a critical mass of copies of power out there to support a large community. This raises the question: How big do people WANT Vintage to get? What's the total player pool right now + -? If you want it to be a lot more popular then eventually you'll either have to:

a) reprint power to create more copies

or. . .

b) accept that the format will not be like chess where everyone can get the pieces.

If b is ok with you then there is nothing to worry about, but if it is not, there will be a time where reprinting power on a limited scale will be require to expand the format as you envision it. It's not so much that a deck MUST have power to be successful. That's not what I'm saying at all. I'm pointing out that there is a different mind-war going on during a magic game when you know that your opponent COULD easily be playing power or not, when you KNOW the he/she could be playing any card or any deck. This is what makes Standard such an attractive format.

It's funny. I actually think that universal access to power (though at a cost and investment I agree) should have the same effect as lowering the drinking age to 18. Less Drunks. When you give access to power to more people you get less unimaginative magic "drunks" hogging the T8's at tournaments because innovative players feel like they can build optimally with new ideas and that powered players must fear everything under the sun. I'm not sure I'm being entirely clear on this point, but I think the psychological aspect to metagames is a fascinating thing, and I'm always interested in decks that break the mold a bit, but still compete. I think I did that pretty effectively.

I understand that "breaking the mold" in Vintage is generally not designing a 60 card deck from scratch with no "requirements." That's what makes it all the more fascinating. If you are running blue you have to justify not running Force Of Will. If you are running black (to a lesser extent) you have to justify not running Duress, or some form of Discard. If you are running a lot of artifacts you have to justify not running 4 Mishra's Workshop. That is what makes Vintage interesting. There are a pool of "Staples" being mixed and matched with innovative strategies and win-conditions and I truly think that more open access will ultimately free up the creative minds of old vintage pros.

K, that was a long post and I hope it at least made some sense. I think my last two points were kinda still in support of proxies, but I want to see if there is a third alternative that offers more optimal deck-building freedom to the newb, while ensuring his/her investment in the format. I think extra prizes to unpowered decks is a good idea, but we still have to solve the over-arching problem of:

1. availability.

2. total player pool desired and the availability we'd need for that.

Peace,

Noah

[Smmenen]

To some extent, comparisons to Standard are misplaced.   No Magical constructed format will ever be as popular as Standard is, no matter what.  Standard is by definition constructed Magic's most accessible format in every dimension, from card availability onward and card knowledge onward.   In fact, that's the point of Standard.

My recommendations are carefully measured to create sustained growth in Vintage, with a particular eye toward those elements of Vintage magic that were not well understood some years ago, but are more clearly gleamed.   With respect to proxies, that's why, although I agree with Ben Bleiweiss, I do not call for the abolition of proxies, but merely a recalibration in their usage.  What is needed is a better balance of the costs and benefits, with an eye toward the long-term health of the format.   

[chrissss]

Rewarding prices to non powered or budget decks like BOM3 does is a really good idea imo. It actually gives people a reason to build decks designed to combat power, which is always nice to see. Although BOM3 has amazing prizes, which is hard to do for a lot of organisers, the idea is solid.

CE cards would be a great idea, its so hard to spot them through the sleeves ( I actually tried just now, and couldn't see it)

I think a huge problem vintage has, is that it doesn't really attract new players, because a lot of players still have the idea Vintage is only about 1st turn kills and heads/tails determines the outcome. If other people would know this isnt true, they might be more interested to play vintage, or at least try it. Legacy is highly popular, and most of these players have all the cards needed to play vintage ( except power, seal, grim, bazaar, workshop etc) , with the right encouragement they could also play vintage.

[Vegeta2711]

[02:10] <Veggies> i think the problem is vintage sux for a variety of reasons
[02:10] <Veggies> rather than just 'OH SHIT CARD AVAILABILITY SHENANIGANS OR LACK THEREOF'

Basically the power cards don't equal Vintage the actual tournament format and your basic argument is: You won't care about Vintage if you don't own the cards. I think that's the problem with this whole argument that proxies are somehow hurting Vintage. Like, oh boy, somebody wants to sell a piece of power! Man why would we want them playing tournaments for essentially a cash prize instead of a card, like every single other format. We might as well not give tournament winners with full P9 sets the card in the first place, I mean they already own a whole set so they're just going to sell it anyway! If you want to attract more people to the format, there are multiple things that could be done that have nothing to do with Proxies, whichever side of the fence you might be on.

[thejinhong]

I have been saying for years that CE was the way to go. 

Ideas for CE in tournaments are great, but to turn any idea into reality, there has to be a financial incentive for Wizards of the Coast (or a very influential company like Starcitygames) to help facilitate this. 

I had this discussion with other vintage players and we realized that Wizards of the Coast or Starcitygames could have a potential moneymaker in the form of CE tournament legalization. 

Basically, a player with an uncut CE card would mail it to Wizards of the Coast or Starcitygames along with a check for $X dollars.  The company would then officially clip the corners (via a standardized machine).  The player would then get back in the mail the clipped CE card (emblazoned with a small official holographic company seal), and at that point the CE card would be officially "blessed" for tournament play. 

The player gets to use his CE Time Walk.
Wizards of the Coast/Starcitygames just got paid money. 
Everyone is happy.   

[Mantis]

Wow Steve, I firmly believe that you are totally off on this one. The only reason the tournament in Breda (Netherlands) recently attracted 60 players from Belgium and the Netherlands was that we allowed 10 proxies IMO. This allows everyone to compete on an equal level. Disallowing proxies would also severely distort the metagame, as Null Rod will basically be the only weapon non powered decks have to fight powered decks, and there are several powered archetypes that can easily beat Rod decks. There might very well be other reasons that are not proxies why the player base is falling in the United States. Probably because you guys fail to attract new players and older players are quitting the game because they are out of college. The focus of the debate is totally off, it should be on how to attract new players to the format instead of how to destroy the format we currently have. I remember times where proxies were not allowed, the same 3 guys who owned the full set of power would always win. It was horrible. I'll most definately will quit Vintage if proxies wouldn't be allowed anymore.

[oneofchaos]

Wow Steve, you are totally off on this one. The only reason the tournament in Breda (Netherlands) recently attracted 60 players from Belgium and the Netherlands was that we allowed 10 proxies IMO. This allows everyone to compete on an equal level. Disallowing proxies would also severely distort the metagame, as Null Rod will basically be the only weapon non powered decks have to fight powered decks, and there are several powered archetypes that can easily beat Rod decks. There might very well be other reasons that are not proxies why the player base is falling in the United States. Probably because you guys fail to attract new players and older players are quitting the game because they are out of college. The focus of the debate is totally off, it should be on how to attract new players to the format instead of how to destroy the format we currently have. I remember times where proxies were not allowed, the same 3 guys who owned the full set of power would always win. It was horrible. I'll most definately will quit Vintage if proxies wouldn't be allowed anymore.

After what has seemed like a solid two to three years of advocating and fighting to hold proxy tournaments, the focus shifts to remove those proxies we fought so hard to earn?  Seriously am I the only person that sees this move as a complete slap to the people who worked hard to bring proxy tournaments to the vintage player base?  If there are a bunch of non-proxy tournaments and proxy tournaments, shouldn't we turn to the tournament that draws in the largest playerbase? (usually the proxy tournament).  Correct me if I am wrong, but Gencon last year had about 100 People?  The last TMD had over 110, and is located in the Eastern United States.  It was proxy tournament.  Gencon was centralized and had a smaller crowd turn up.  It's not a question on whether or not to reprint power, we cannot control that directly.  If it does happen, talk to me then.  Otherwise, drop it.  What we should worry about is drawing in fresh new players.  Regardless of whether we hold proxy or non-proxy tournaments, if the playerbase to attend those tournaments doesn't exist vintage dies. 

[Tha Gunslinga]

I love how when vintage attendance starts falling, despite the half-dozen other potential explanations, people decide that proxies, which brought us such an increase in attendance back in 2002 (or whenever) are somehow the cause.

[Implacable]

I love how when vintage attendance starts falling, despite the half-dozen other potential explanations, people decide that proxies, which brought us such an increase in attendance back in 2002 (or whenever) are somehow the cause.

Yep.  Cut back proxies, and the fledgling scene over here on the West Coast, where Seattle is just starting to really get into Vintage, will go kaput!  But, you know, whatever.

[aosquirrels]

Steve's article, in my opinion, was well thought out and well written.  However, his suggestions are not the complete answer to the problem that the vintage communtiy is facing.  I would like to add to his discussion, if I may.

First...Running non-proxy events must be embraced by the TO's and have the full support of WOTC.  First, there is this notion that vintage tournaments need to be "big". That is to say there must be some big prize with a big tournout in attendance in order to have a successful tournament.  If this is what vintage is all about then it will not prosper in the long run.  One of the best ways to get new players and to KEEP them is to run small (weekly, semi-monthly) events.  The players who really really really get the bug to persue vintage further will be the ones that invest in the better (not necessarily power) cards.  These people will have that investment factor that Steve points out in his article and will be more likely (also as Steve points out) to keep playing vintage.  These players who do stay with vintage will be more likely support the store that got them into vintage in the first place.  As a TO and store owner, I can say first hand that this is a slow and sometimes frustrating process.  Now, after 4 years of operating this way I can say that it was well worth it.

Second...Wizards of the Coast NEEDS to be involved much much more than they are at present.  For their part, this to me seems to be the easiest.  They can support vintage in a tremendous way by simply allowing for some sort of regional event(s) or state championship event.  They wouldn't have to put up much (if any) prize support.  The financial opportunity the TO's would have by holding these sorts of events would be worth it.  All WOTC would have to do would be to designate (recognize) the TO for these tournaments.  This part is just to easy and simple.

I don't usually add much (if anything) to the threads on TMD but this topic hits a nerve with me.  There is much more I'd like to say but I don't want to get banned from TMD.

Carl

[Smmenen]

Wow Steve, I firmly believe that you are totally off on this one. The only reason the tournament in Breda (Netherlands) recently attracted 60 players from Belgium and the Netherlands was that we allowed 10 proxies IMO. This allows everyone to compete on an equal level. Disallowing proxies would also severely distort the metagame, as Null Rod will basically be the only weapon non powered decks have to fight powered decks, and there are several powered archetypes that can easily beat Rod decks. There might very well be other reasons that are not proxies why the player base is falling in the United States. Probably because you guys fail to attract new players and older players are quitting the game because they are out of college. The focus of the debate is totally off, it should be on how to attract new players to the format instead of how to destroy the format we currently have. I remember times where proxies were not allowed, the same 3 guys who owned the full set of power would always win. It was horrible. I'll most definately will quit Vintage if proxies wouldn't be allowed anymore.

You seem to imply that I am in favor of abolishing proxies.   Untrue.  As I said: 

I do not call for the abolition of proxies, but merely a recalibration in their usage.  What is needed is a better balance of the costs and benefits, with an eye toward the long-term health of the format.

I love how when vintage attendance starts falling, despite the half-dozen other potential explanations, people decide that proxies, which brought us such an increase in attendance back in 2002 (or whenever) are somehow the cause.

My article does not make the assumption that you seem to be ascribing to it. 

[Suicideking]

Edit: Putting it more politely and intelligently than I had it before:

With respect, how can "the Vintage community" discuss the minutia of your plan if we can't read it? I mean, if this is really about saving the format, I fail to see why it needs to be premium. Pay money to find out how to make a format that is too expensive more accessible?

I'd love to discuss this with you, but I won't be able to for three months, which was kind of the same deal where I was talking in the dark over on Bleiweiss's proxy article thread.

Unfortunately, Premium is the price paid for getting a weekly column on Vintage.   The good news is that premium actually costs about $5 per month, which is roughly $1.25 per article per person.   It's actually less if you buy it on a quarterly or annual basis.  Not exactly a barrier to entry.   Of course I'm biased but I think that my tournament reports, set reviews, and primers are worth it.   

Premium is cheaper then a dual land for 6 months.  I recently bought an account and it is well worth the money you spend.  

That being said, I respectfully disagree with your assertion that proxies have changed the psychological perception of power.  People still want to own it which is why it is so easy to sell your prize after a tournament.  

I think if you want to make the community grow you need to change the perception of vintage in non-vintage players mind.  We simply are not attracting enough new players.  Your average players view vintage as next to impossible to get into to, and taking away proxies isnt going to change the accessibility issue, it is only going to make it worse.  

I purposed a big brother system for vintage.  If every player grabbed a kid at the card store, gave them the common vintage staples, and taught them about the format, vintage would grow substantially.  I think this is whats happening in europe.  The format is slowly picking up popularity and they are pulling more and more players to each event.  

Maybe if T.O.s gave prizes to first timers at their tourneys this could help too.  

[benthetenor]

I would hope that everyone reading is intelligent enough to realize that it is impossible to take a phenomenon that is multiply determined (like virtually anything that a group of human beings do) and try to distill it down to one cause. Take tournament attendance.

A store owner decides to run an event. Even better, (s)he decides that he will run two, with one small difference. One will allow proxies, one will not. That owner will record the number of entrants and post the results, and decides that that simple experiment, with only one thing varying, will decide once and for all whether the existence of proxies determines tournament turnout in a significant way. Seems logical, right?

Too bad there are hundreds of confounding variables, most of which are impossible to see. The biggest one is time. Say one is run on Saturday and the other on Sunday. Might the day of the week affect the turnout? Ok, (s)he sees around that, and puts it one week apart, both days on Saturday. Couldn't it also be possible that the week that it is run has an effect? What about less obvious things, like temperature, word of mouth, economic concerns (global and local), group dynamics, work schedules? Any and all of these affect what people do.

There are about three or four variables that have nothing to do with proxies that better explain how tournament entry has declined in the past few years. The one which I believe best explains the data is the lack of consistent, large, well publicized events held by a central authority. We used to have that, we no longer do. What every single other format has on Vintage is the full support of Wizards. Now, eventually eliminating proxies will better streamline Wizard support, but regardless, there was a time when you could plan on going to a large event every few months, and plan those a year in advance. Then, for some reason, those tournaments just stopped happening. Turnout wasn't slipping, but I guess it just doesn't matter.

I do find it interesting that an article published and funded by Starcitygames.com would place the blame for low turnout on an external force, namely, the existence of proxies, rather than the simpler explanation of a lack of consistent tournaments. It's the same argument that Bleweiss put out, only he was directly responsible for stopping the large tournaments. How odd that he wouldn't place the blame on the one decision that he had made directly, and would instead go looking elsewhere for explanations!

This isn't rocket science. If you want players to take stock in Vintage, to feel a connection and pride for their format, then you have to expect the tournament organizers to do the same. When the biggest advocate for the format (Starcitygames) decided to all but abandon it, what did you think would happen?

To be clear, Steven, I'm not saying that your theory doesn't make sense. It does. I'm just saying that there are much simpler theories for the same phenomenon. Not that simpler is always correct, but it is at least equally plausible. It is true that moving Vintage towards Wizard's approval and support will increase tournament turnout in the long run. But it is also true that Starcitygames (or TMD, or any other entity capable of doing so) holding regular tournaments around the country will also increase tournament turnout in the long run. We can place the blame wherever we wish to, but I do wish that SCG, which took such great initiative and practically created Vintage magic in the early days, wouldn't try to pass the buck on to Wizards and to the Vintage community.

[vassago]

      Hi Steve! I just got through reading your article and I like the ideas behind it.  The application of it will obviously take some time. The one problem I am having with it is as follows, how can I be able to reduce the proxy limit right now? Between "Smasher" and I, we have been starting the craze for type 1 in the state of Arizona and been supporting it for months.  The point I am trying to make is that despite my longing for sanctioned type1 it is very hard at this moment to try and get those who I have spiked that interest in, into buying the cards and/or obtaining them.  Take a look at my tournament reports, the 2 i have done so far, 17 and 20 in total attendance. Now this may seem rather small or lack luster at best, but that's awesome for what Smasher and I have been doing! The weekly tournaments we hold at the shop have even smaller numbers, which is consistently 8-10 after 6 months of 6 or so.     As sad as it sounds, I actually have to use the idea of proxies to get people to not immediately dismiss the format as being "unreachable".  Do you think that this is an inappropriate way of initializing this?

       Speaking of where to start, we have found out that one really good way of starting the interest in the format is to play it every time you can around other people who may or may not be involved.  It seems risky to take my fully powered deck, most of the power is alpha/beta, to larger events, but I think if people see you play they will watch and hopefully enjoy what they are seeing.  Maybe they will ask questions about whats going on, possibly want to know if we have tournaments, so on and so forth.  I didnt play at the PTQ at Gamer's Inn but I did show up to trade and play some type 1! I know what I am saying might sound stupid or awkward to anyone who actually has a good scene for type 1 where they live, but that is what I am trying to achieve. 

       People who own power, who physically keep it in their possession, are far more likely to think about Vintage. People who own power have more of a stake in the format just as someone who owns stock has more of a stake in that company, and consequently will follow it more closely and take a greater interest in it. Owning power is like owning a share in Vintage. It not only has value and makes you concerned about its health, it also makes you more interested in it and connected to it.

    Sorry to copy and paste but I think that this statement is very true! When i first read this quote from your article I thought it self evident until I thought about how much I was working for vintage here.   Even though our vintage community here in Arizona is small in comparison to other areas, I do think there is some longevity to it.   I know of at least 4 people in this area who either have or are on "the quest" for black bordered power.  3 of us play test, whether or not it does any good is debatable, almost everyday. 

[dark burn]

I live about 15 minutes from the blue bell tournament and I can go there every time it is held with no trouble.  I guess I am lucky that there is such a big, consistent tournament right in my back yard.  I got into vintage because the tournament was so close and easily accessable.  I have been playing for about a year and a half, mostly with a sui. black deck.  In that time I decided to trade for, and pick up as many vintage playables as possibe.  I now have the ability to build 4 different, good, vintage decks.  I have my sui deck (which is a pet deck), ANT, Workshop aggro/stacks/Mud, and goblins.  I need about 7 more cards to build Tez as well.  I could also build gwsx or tps if I took apart ANT.  This means that at any vintage event I could go to, I have the ability to walk up to 3 other strangers and give them vintage decks and get them into the format.  Hell, I could hold a weekly 4 man event with all my own cards.  This is only possible because of 15 proxies.  I do not own any of the power, but because of proxies, I have made the effort to invest at least 4 different vintage decks.  I am also incouraging a friend, who has the cards for Oath to build it and play with me. I have also talked to and played with 2 other people from my standard/draft group, who may be willing to borrow my decks and play in the next blue bell event.  This is the way to increase players for vintage.

It sounds like I have a ton of cards and spend a ton of money every week on magic but I dont.  I draft every friday night at $15 a week and play saturday night standard at $5 a week.  I win a lot at draft so I do open an average of 7 packs of cards every week for about $20.  From those cards I trade for all the vintage cards I want.  It is not that difficult to build many different decks if you set your mind to it.  I know that a lot of the good vintage players in my area have a card pool sufficiently large to support more than one deck if there are proxies allowed.  If every person carried 2 vintage decks around with them, and just played pick up games, the format would grow much faster.  This is exactly what happened with EDH, which is hugely popular now.

I challenge the vintage community to follow my example and increase the player base of the best format in Magic.

[Smmenen]

      Hi Steve! I just got through reading your article and I like the ideas behind it.  The application of it will obviously take some time. The one problem I am having with it is as follows, how can I be able to reduce the proxy limit right now? Between "Smasher" and I, we have been starting the craze for type 1 in the state of Arizona and been supporting it for months.  The point I am trying to make is that despite my longing for sanctioned type1 it is very hard at this moment to try and get those who I have spiked that interest in, into buying the cards and/or obtaining them.  Take a look at my tournament reports, the 2 i have done so far, 17 and 20 in total attendance. Now this may seem rather small or lack luster at best, but that's awesome for what Smasher and I have been doing! The weekly tournaments we hold at the shop have even smaller numbers, which is consistently 8-10 after 6 months of 6 or so.     As sad as it sounds, I actually have to use the idea of proxies to get people to not immediately dismiss the format as being "unreachable".  Do you think that this is an inappropriate way of initializing this?

Not at all!  

Proxies are a positive good.  I am simply saying that we should be moving to a 5 proxy model, for all of the reasons contained in the article, rather than the 10, 15, or even 25 proxy model.  

[jamestosetti]

This isn't meant to "flame" anyone but if people are playing decks with no power nine with every attempt and effort to win power nine cards you are better off to all join together, buy a power 9 card and have your own tournament similar to poker and it would be much easier to win the power. This is just my feeling but if people owned power they more than likely would not bring red and green beats to a major tournament or black and green or whatever so it would be better to form small play groups or something. This is the trouble with magic though. It should be a friendly game but alot of players can't interact with other people so these groups never get formed. I think there should be alot more teamwork going on and enjoyment of our "sport."

[Troy_Costisick]

This is really great advice for TO's running tournaments where the Power 9 are prizes.  But for tourneys where the prizes are cash or something else, TO's will still have to make a decision on number of proxies according to what they believe will give them the greatest attendance.  I'd love for SCG to bring a P9 event back to the Illinois, Indiana, Ohio region of the US, but right now, I am seeing more and more large cash or small purse local tournaments.

[BruiZar]

I remember the last thread about proxies and stopped reading it after it got cluttered with irrelevant comments.


I read the article and mostly agree about CE. I've discussed the use of CE for our local vintage tournaments and the reaction I got was that they are too easily cheated with. A lame and outdated argument, because I see people with pimped out printed proxies, foil cards and alpha power all of the time. I would rather have a ban on foreign cards than on CE cards because foreign cards prohibit new players from vintage.

FOREIGN CARDS
I provide 3 people with vintage staples so we effectively attend tourneys with 4 people. In my group, I am the one most informed on the meta, new cards and tech and what to play. My brother, who top 8'd 2 times in a row (his first 2 vintage tourneys), played against a french version of mana'd ichorid. He didn't understand breakthrough, narcomoeba, ichorid or golgari gravetroll because he has not actively followed magic and couldn't understand the french cards. This happened to me while  attending an extended tourney and played against a french Condescend.

We get extremely upset about foreign cards because asking a judge what a card does is not the same thing as interpreting the actual text. A judge isn't going to say "tap-sign, colon, exact text" and even if he does you just want to be able to read it. Seeing my brother lose to ichorid (his only loss in the first 6 rounds) just because he didn't know what the cards did and how to respond to them was so upsetting that I am contemplating abusing proxying to confuse my opponents. It gets even worst when people get on that whole japanese foil bandwagon.

These people are NEW to the format and do not know all the intricate mechanics that vintage, the format that holds the most daunting rules to comphrehend. If you want an accessible format, why allow cards that new players may not understand?


COLLECTORS EDITION
Back on the topic of CE, just make the TO sell his own sleeves and make them mandatory, sell them at registration and the problem is solved. You can even require double sleeving and inform players of the concept of double sleeving (ie: never having to get your cards out of their sleeves and only replacing the outer ones to preserve your cards better, and have legal CE)

PRIZE SUPPORT
Concerning prize support this could be a good idea: We have a trader ( Rudy ) who attends all the vintage events in our country and sponsors the mox prize. I would say change the prize support so that players can choose between the power or a 'free shopping coupon worth * euros with Rudy, meaning they can trade their mox for staples if they are already full powered. With less proxies allowed, unpowered players would still go for power, while fully powered vintage players could go for stuff like Rolling Earthquakes or foil Goblin Welders. We all know full powered vintage players are more concerned with pimping than any other group of magic players so i think they would be happy to pick up pimp foils instead.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

FOREIGN CARDS
I provide 3 people with vintage staples so we effectively attend tourneys with 4 people. In my group, I am the one most informed on the meta, new cards and tech and what to play. My brother, who top 8'd 2 times in a row (his first 2 vintage tourneys), played against a french version of mana'd ichorid. He didn't understand breakthrough, narcomoeba, ichorid or golgari gravetroll because he has not actively followed magic and couldn't understand the french cards. This happened to me while  attending an extended tourney and played against a french Condescend.

We get extremely upset about foreign cards because asking a judge what a card does is not the same thing as interpreting the actual text. A judge isn't going to say "tap-sign, colon, exact text" and even if he does you just want to be able to read it. Seeing my brother lose to ichorid (his only loss in the first 6 rounds) just because he didn't know what the cards did and how to respond to them was so upsetting that I am contemplating abusing proxying to confuse my opponents. It gets even worst when people get on that whole japanese foil bandwagon.

These people are NEW to the format and do not know all the intricate mechanics that vintage, the format that holds the most daunting rules to comphrehend. If you want an accessible format, why allow cards that new players may not understand?

So how hard is it to ask the judge to sit down at your table and translate everything? If you're really so anal to get the exact text the judge should have some way to get the Oracle text. It would take the store not having a computer+not having the card in stock+nobody else in the entire tournament room having a copy of the card with them. Then I guess we should ban everything that is confusing when it comes to rules like Chains of Meph? What happens in Euro tournaments where people speak different languages and only have access to cards in their language? What about if those players come to USA to play in a major tournament? That is such a bad excuse to losing the match I hope nobody listens to this. Not to mention how did you lose not understanding Condescend? It is so simple. Counter target spell unless the controller pays X, scry 2. You can't go around blaming other people for everything especially if the solution to the problem is easy.

[Diakonov]

Why does the number of proxies always have to be multiples of 5?  I mean, there is a pretty dramatic difference between 5 and 10 proxies.  Assuming you want to run something very competitive, you're going to want as many power pieces as necessary.  Let's say you start by proxying Lotus, Ancestral, Walk, and two moxes.  This is enough to run Ichorid, Fish, or budget Aggro--or maybe something else weird, I'm just generalizing here--but realistically it would not be optimal to attempt to play most other archetypes.  That is, unless, you want to shell out another $700-1200.  This is a problem, because I like playing decks like TPS and Vault/Key builds, and I simply do not have the cash to even get halfway there.

I'm really happy to have seen Stormanimagus perform so well at TMD Open (congrats BTW), but let's be realistic for a moment: full power is better under most circumstances.  Budget/Fish decks have to struggle to get Null Rod on the table, and even then, it's somewhat of a battle.  Frankly, if I didn't have a lot of time to spend testing a metagamed Fish build and I was incapable of bringing a deck that is more immediately competitive, I'd be less encouraged to attend tournaments (which are hard enough to attend frequently as it is due to busy schedules).  Rewarding the top low-powered deck is a wonderful idea, but what about all the other people who were forced to run low-powered decks that day?  Not to mention that Ichorid would probably win that prize at every tournament.

Having said this, I do agree that having 10 proxies allows players to feel like they can just avoid owning power altogether, which isn't necessarily a good thing.  I think what needs to be found is a happy medium, so that players are encouraged to at least try to own a little bit of power.  I'm suggesting that we try changing the number of proxies to 7 or 8.  That way, players will still be able to run the otherwise inaccessible 3/4's of decks in the format, with the only detriment being that you might be missing one or two moxes.  It would be enough of a crutch to encourage the possession of some power without alienating people from their favorite archetypes.

[BruiZar]

I react kind of emotional to foreign cards. The single condescend didn't make me lose the game, but having an entire foreign deck is just lame. My point was that I see more problems iwth Foreign cards than with CE.

I went to deckcheck and clicked on a random extended deck (http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=24260)
If I would be playing against this deck in an extended tournament I would have to call a judge for:
Pestermite (Didn't know this card)
Primal Command (wtf?)
Garruk, Wild SPeaker (The only planeswalker i can remember is tezzeret)
Boseiju (Once a vintage card, but slipped out of my memory, not hard to cheat sorcery/instant only for another cardtype)
Bottled Cloister (At the beginning of each opponent's or each player's turn? Draw an extra card in upkeep or draw step?
Contested Cliffs (another card i've probably seen a thousand times but because its not relevant to vintage i keep forgetting exactly what it does.)

I always spoil every card on mtgsalvation and have been playing M:TG since legends. Ask me about Uthen Troll, Spinal Villain or Necropolis no problem, but I just can't remember all the cards that are released at the current pace WotC is releasing sets.

If I'm having these problems with foreign extended cards, why would an extended player not share the same problems with all pimpedout japanese foil vintage decks?

[Nehptis]

Proxies are a positive good.  I am simply saying that we should be moving to a 5 proxy model, for all of the reasons contained in the article, rather than the 10, 15, or even 25 proxy model.  

If we truly want to understand what the Proxy limit should be then I think the best method of analysis is to take a "Free Market" approach.  I know that this isn't a popular topic right now with the US economy in a Recession.  But, here's the method:

1) TOs, should host Unlimited Proxy events for 3 months.  (In most cases this will be only 3 data points per TO.)
2) Ensure that every player registers a decklist with the total Number of Proxies identified.
3) Start a Topic on TMD for TOs to post results.

This is a very simple way to let the "free market" speak as to how many proxies it needs/wants.  Then based on this data a more informed decision can be rendered regarding "what to do next" from a Proxy tournament perspective.