Lorescale Coatl Gro In Vintage

[Cavius The Great]

I'm amazed at how powerful Lorescale Coatl can be. For reference, he's a new Alara Reborn card that cost 1UG, is a 2/2 and gets  permanent +1/+1 counter whenever you draw a card. I've seen threads on breaking the card in Legacy, but I feel it's true home would be in Vintage. I also have a lot of insight becuase I was one of the first people to abuse Forgotten Ancient a.k.a. Babycakes in Vintage. I think Vintage might be the best place for this serpent becuase of the fact that Draw-7's are legal in the format. Here's a rough list of what I would play in Vintage.

4 Lorescale Coatl
4 Vedalken Heretic
3 Gorrilla Shaman
3 Shadowmage Infiltrator
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Gush
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Force of Will
4 Cunning Wish
5 Moxen
1 Lotus
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Mox Diamond
1 Fastbond
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:
1 Berserk
1 Krosan Grip
1 Coffin Purge
1 Sudden Shock
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Misdirection
1 Commandeer
1 Path to Exile
1 Lightning Helix
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Pernicious Deed

This is just a rough draft and untested. I think Lorescale has alot of potential in Vintage. I also think that Timetwister might actually go up in value becuase of the printing of this little guy. This thread is just food for thought. I just wanted to get the idea out there so that the community can brainstorm a bit on how to best abuse this card. Thanks ahead of time for your response.

[silvernail]

At a CC of 3 I'd say Coatl is best compared to Psychatog.  Tog and Coatl play almost identically in terms of killing an opponent - you draw a bunch fo cards and pump the creature with them and swing. With Coatl you don't lose the cards and can actually play them, which is a big potential plus in my book.

Being that you may not win in one turn, draw 7s may be a disadvantage- I'd consider an intuition/AK package with perhaps some cycling lands and a life from the loam tossed in perhaps.

Other cards to consider are Bersek, or Fatal Frenzy if you don't have that or that Red card that gives double strike to a gold creature. Also you want a Zuran Orb or two in with the fastbond/crucible engine to allow you to go infinite and likely win if you get the pieces in play.

I see this as a new version of Tog, with not much new to really add on unless you can stop your opponents from abusing the draw 7s to compensate.

[Cavius The Great]

I think that Lorescale Coatl is a 100 times better than Psychatog. First of all, the +1/+1 counters are permanent, He isn't graveyard dependant (Ground Seal does nothing, etc.), He gets bigger regardless even at every draw step, and he grows alot more faster than a Tog would.

@Berserk -  Did you not check my SB and the 4 Cunning Wishes main?

@The Draw-7's - It should be heavily in your favor if you cast one with a Coatl in play then declare your attack phase. I was thinking of adding more counters to alleviate this problem since FoW might not be enough, though I think that it should be.

[Webster]

I think that Lorescale Coatl is a 100 times better than Psychatog. First of all, the +1/+1 counters are permanent, He isn't graveyard dependant (Ground Seal does nothing, etc.),

Psychatog isn't affected by Ground Seal because Psychatog's second ability doesn't target cards in the graveyard; it removes them as a cost.

Psychatog
1UB
Creature - Atog
1/2
Discard a card: Psychatog gets +1/+1 until end of turn.
Remove two cards in your graveyard from the game: Psychatog gets +1/+1 until end of turn.

Ground Seal
1G
Enchantment
When Ground Seal comes into play, draw a card. Cards in graveyards can't be the targets of spells or abilities.

[silvernail]

I totally didn't see the berserk in the sb, did see the cunning wishes though - 3 is probably a good idea, I'd add a zuran orb in place of one.

The deck plays pretty similar to old gro'a'tog decks, the permanent growing effect is basically as good as dryad was in gush lists. Coatl has some strengths compared to dryads/togs when using things like draw 7s or draw engines (LftL and/or HC with fastbond/zorb/CoW).

You should consider looking at old gush list as well as post gush lists and compare what they have in the slots you put draw 7s in and see what pros and cons there are to running the deck with draw 7s. Besides those the deck plays pretty much exactly like gro a tog, so the real innovation is not the creature but in how well you can use your draw engine without your opponents doing the same.

Another possible draw engine is the Remora / Meditate suite which gets you plenty of cards.

[Guli]

Still Tog is vulnerable to well timed grave removal

They both are answered by BOUNCE.

I think the Lorescale is actually stronger. And that does say something, Tog dominated the meta in the past and was considered the best creature printed in the days.

Breakthrough/Madness might be an idea. Lizards and snakes

[Webster]

Still Tog is vulnerable to well timed grave removal

Not really. That is to say, graveyard removal isn't going to affect a deck that resolves multiple Thirst for Knowledge before slaughtering you because you brought in a bunch of dead Tormod's Crypts.

They both are answered by BOUNCE.

I don't think that's particularly relevant. Both can be Red Blasted, but that doesn't actually mean anything.

I think the Lorescale is actually stronger. And that does say something, Tog dominated the meta in the past and was considered the best creature printed in the days.

You're wrong for multiple reasons. You can't compare what Psychatog is today against Lorescale Coatl and say that because you've come to the accurate (hardly) conclusion that Coatl is better now that it is better than what Psychatog was when it was good, and thus interpret that Coatl is the best thing since sliced bread. Lorescale Coatl won't dominate. Psychatog dominated because it was the most compact kill mechanism that the drain shells of the time could come up with. It was competing with Morphling and Exalted Angel for crying out loud; both of which were terribly slow. To say that Coatl is 'stronger', and therefore going to 'dominate' implies that it's going to be on par with Tinker, Vault/Key, and Tendrils of Agony which is just ridiculous.

[Guli]

Still Tog is vulnerable to well timed grave removal

Not really. That is to say, graveyard removal isn't going to affect a deck that resolves multiple Thirst for Knowledge before slaughtering you because you brought in a bunch of dead Tormod's Crypts.

They both are answered by BOUNCE.

I don't think that's particularly relevant. Both can be Red Blasted, but that doesn't actually mean anything.

I think the Lorescale is actually stronger. And that does say something, Tog dominated the meta in the past and was considered the best creature printed in the days.

You're wrong for multiple reasons. You can't compare what Psychatog is today against Lorescale Coatl and say that because you've come to the accurate (hardly) conclusion that Coatl is better now that it is better than what Psychatog was when it was good, and thus interpret that Coatl is the best thing since sliced bread. Lorescale Coatl won't dominate. Psychatog dominated because it was the most compact kill mechanism that the drain shells of the time could come up with. It was competing with Morphling and Exalted Angel for crying out loud; both of which were terribly slow. To say that Coatl is 'stronger', and therefore going to 'dominate' implies that it's going to be on par with Tinker, Vault/Key, and Tendrils of Agony which is just ridiculous.

Removing the grave vs Tog does do somethng while it doesnt do anything against the snake.

You are drawing wrong conclusions, i never said the snake will dominate. I did say TOG did in the past. Don't quote me for things i didn't say.

You are being ridiculous by taking my words and inventing correlations in your fantasy world of 'bash guli'.

[mike_bergeron]

Removing the grave vs Tog does do somethng while it doesnt do anything against the snake.

You are drawing wrong conclusions, i never said the snake will dominate. I did say TOG did in the past. Don't quote me for things i didn't say.

You are being ridiculous by taking my words and inventing correlations in your fantasy world of 'bash guli'.

Guli, I don't think David is 'bashing' anyone, I think he is just pointing out that psychatog was incredibly strong as a win condition compared to the win conditions it was fighting with at the time.  There are answers to both cards, and they both share some similarities.  I am usually one to 'crown' the new king before it even arrives, but without some strong results I agree with David's points- we cannot determine this card is 'stronger' than 'Tog when they have very different features to abuse in vintage- one with drawing, and one with drawing and graveyard removal.

[Webster]

Removing the grave vs Tog does do somethng while it doesnt do anything against the snake.

Perish kills Lorescale Coatl but not Psychatog, but that doesn't really matter because no one plays with Perish in Vintage just like no one boarded in graveyard removal to win the Tog matchup.

You are drawing wrong conclusions, i never said the snake will dominate. I did say TOG did in the past. Don't quote me for things i didn't say.

By making the comparison of the two, you're implying that Lorescale will dominate. You're just letting the reader connect the two together with your statement that, "I think the Lorescale is actually stronger. And that does say something, Tog dominated the meta in the past and was considered the best creature printed in the days".

You are being ridiculous by taking my words and inventing correlations in your fantasy world of 'bash guli'.

I'm not trying to bash you. I'm just saying you're wrong, being constructive about it, and telling you why. There's a big difference.

[Guli]

I also don't think David was bashing me. But he was wrong quoting me, it was his mind that made that connection. I guess i should phrase my sentences more careful.

Do you guys think the auto +1/+1 from the draw phase and serpent being a 3/3 for 3 is a relevant argument IF we compare him to TOG? And let me add the fact that he stays big.

Can I assume that you David thinks TOG is better? Or what is the case?

[Liiva]

Biggest drawback of this card is the   in the mana cost, else I would probably give it a go in Remora.dec (replacing psychatog). But after playing against fish and workshop aggro alot, I've grown quite fond of the solid UB mana-base and last time I played, 'tog was pretty impressive.

[Cavius The Great]

I totally didn't see the berserk in the sb, did see the cunning wishes though - 3 is probably a good idea, I'd add a zuran orb in place of one.

I think adding a Zuran Orb might be a good idea. I also ran 3 Cunning Wish in Babycakes, so I actually have no idea why I chose to run 4. 

I'm not a mathmatician, but I think mathematically, you actually net more "grow" with a Coatl than a Psychatog. Tog is restricted to having 7 cards in your hand while Coatl is not. So whenever cards go into the graveyard with Tog, it's 1/2 as efficient when compared to Coatl. Plus the +1/+1 counters on the snake being permanent gives it a major edge over Tog.

[silvernail]

if you draw 2 cards with coatl in play it gets +2/+2. If you draw 2 cards and pitch them to tog, you can also remove them from the game for a total of +3/+3. Tog is thus superior in terms of how much you can pump him, barring graveyard removal.

[Webster]

if you draw 2 cards with coatl in play it gets +2/+2. If you draw 2 cards and pitch them to tog, you can also remove them from the game for a total of +3/+3. Tog is thus superior in terms of how much you can pump him, barring graveyard removal.

Superior in a vacuum perhaps.  When you take into consideration the opponent and their unfortunate desire of wanting to kill you, having the cards that you would need to discard to tog to pump it stay in your hand with Coatl makes the comparison not as clear.

[Oath of Happy]

As a 4 of, the snake is probably better than Tog becasue the eariler you get it out, the faster it grows.  As a 2 of, the Tog is probably better, because it can be a finisher that will kill in 1 shot by the mid-late game.  In Vintage I think these 2 cards are really great as 0 of's.

[policehq]

if you draw 2 cards with coatl in play it gets +2/+2. If you draw 2 cards and pitch them to tog, you can also remove them from the game for a total of +3/+3. Tog is thus superior in terms of how much you can pump him, barring graveyard removal.

Cards are often much better than potential Tog-pitches!

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

The only way to make Lorescale playable is alongside draw-7s (and all of the good tutors to fetch them as that list is sorely lacking) and a ton of pitch counters so you can drop it early. Goyf and Dryad (as has been mentioned 100 times) are each better in metagames not featuring 4xBrainstorm or 4xGush though, so I would suggest waiting for one of the two to be unrestricted before even trying to play this card. Just the fact that it forces you to run Vedalken Heretic instead of the vastly superior Dark Confidant (especially considering you're running black anyways) should be setting off warning bells.

[mike_bergeron]

Why not the classic Sylvan Library?  You can run it instead of confidant, it gives you card quality and you can grab the extra force of will for 4 life instead of 5 off confidant.  With Fetches and Library Manipulation it could be pretty fun.  Good? No idea, but fun.

Sylvan Library + Draw Phase = 4 counters per turn, barring other effects.  You would need 2 turns and a berserk to "FINISH" your opponent Mortal Kombat style.

Plus, if someone made an awesome deck I could use my 4 sylvan libraries for something.

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

Why not the classic Sylvan Library?  You can run it instead of confidant, it gives you card quality and you can grab the extra force of will for 4 life instead of 5 off confidant.  With Fetches and Library Manipulation it could be pretty fun.  Good? No idea, but fun.

Sylvan Library + Draw Phase = 4 counters per turn, barring other effects.  You would need 2 turns and a berserk to "FINISH" your opponent Mortal Kombat style.

Plus, if someone made an awesome deck I could use my 4 sylvan libraries for something.

I agree it would be nice to see somebody bring back Sylvan Library and I'd love to see a deck work running it+Coatl. Beats for 5/8/11 not a bad 3 turn clock (or 2 with Berserk as you said XD)it kind of puts goyf to shame in the right deck. You would probably have to tutor for Library most of the time which may be too much of a crutch to make it work though.

[vassago]

       I dont know how I feel about this card. At first glance it appears to be slow and down right horrible for the mana cost.  Do not get me wrong, I am not "nay saying," yet, but I havent had the time to consider the tempo nessecary to the card's nature.  It does have that neat upside of being useful with force of will, but that isnt the driving point.  I guess some of the questions one would have to ask themselves is :  What other cards would one want to play in the same deck? Would that deck be fast/strong enough to compete in today's metagame?  If you looked at the decks shell objectively, would there be another deck with same shell that would be better, in other words would this be a "pet deck" version of a better build?
 
        When I look at this guy, I immediately think about the best draw engines in the format.  Thirst for knowledge for example is a pretty good engine, obviously right?  Would this "duder" go well in a drain list?  Sorry if you are not making the connection, but when I propose playing TFK I atutomatically assume drains will be in the deck. I have trouble justifying this guy in a drain deck because of the following reasons; you want this guy out ASAP, and you want drain online ASAP.  I mean there will be hands where you can drop this guy safely early enough with force back up, but those hands dont seem to be consistant enough for me.  Not that I have shuffled it up, I just am imagining the plethora of opening hands and making a judgement.  The next draw engine is Intuition and accumulated knowledge.  Is it just me or would one want to play drains in this list too?  Then there is Bazaar of Baghdad.   Would this really be good enough? I think this in combination of the creature in question falls directly into the danger of cool things.  What about Remora/ Meditate?  Seems like on the opposite end of deck styles to me...

       Anyway, this is just my initial thoughts when I look at the card.  I could very well be wrong in my assumptions and views of how it would play out, but I personally think this guy is not good in our current metagame. However I am not saying write him off entirely, because he does have potential that could be useful in the future.

[Guli]

However I am not saying write him off entirely, because he does have potential that could be useful in the future.

More like in the past (brainstorm)

[zeus-online]

The biggest problem wit the coatl is that he has to come down fast to be relevant...if he comes down any later then turn 2 he will likely not be relevant. While a Turn 4 psychatog is alot worse for the opponent since it's quite possible for it to kill him right away.

I really don't think either is clearly ahead of the other, but i do see some timing problems with the coatl.

Sensei's top could potentially pump the coatl by 1 more each turn for  ....Just saying (Oh and two top's are rather "cute")

[vassago]

Sensei's top could potentially pump the coatl by 1 more each turn for  ....Just saying (Oh and two top's are rather "cute")

Or you could just Sensei Sensei combo for inf. beats!  I like where this is going...

[Guli]

I don't know about the Coatl. I can tell you I didn't like facing him when I played my non combo decks. If he stays on the board and you don't do anything about him you lose the game. But then again the same can be said about the Tog and Dryad's. Still the coatl can grows unfairly fast when there is a simple TFK resolving. I wouldn't build a deck around top/coatl though but I would add top as support.

I would love to see Breakthrough and Coatl. A very cheap way to draw 4 cards. You can always pay 1 extra and keep another Breakthrough in hand or something else that draws you a lot of cards.

+1+1 from your normal draw
+4+4 from breakthrough
+2+2 from Careful Study or +3+3 from brain/recall that you have kept after break
Add in some damage before that they took from fetch/force/crypt/whatever say -3
with tops flying around you can always respond to break and recast top so thats +2+2
activate bazaar +2+2

13/13

Swing

That leaves them at 3-4 life points. I ll play that Nimble Mongoose and Basking Rootwalla as 1 drops to swing a couple times to deal some damage before Coatl comes in.

This scenario is of course silly to use as an argument. But it does show that their is potential to make it grow very fast with cheap spells and abilities. I would also use wonders to give it flying. I think he would fit in a more aggro control oriented theme. A lot of people stated, and I agree, that he should be used differently than TOG. Well maybe Bazaar/Madness is a suitable home for him if he can deliver a serious amount of damage whenever he is able to attack. Preferably killing the opponent right there and if not lowering the life count to a very small amount so he has 1 turn left. The scenario was just for illustration don't bash me for it.

[Guli]

Another idea is Welder/Jar to finish off very quickly. Red would also give Wheel of fortune and while at it add in Twister/Windfall.

He IS the first creature for 3 mana that has that specific ability so the draw 7s might be justified with him as a killer.

Browbeat is also interesting with him.

[policehq]

Browbeat is no more interesting than before. No player would let you draw three cards then, and certainly no player will let you draw three cards now.

Draw-7's and any bad draw spell (Breakthrough) is not going to be a good route to take the deck. The only card this is comparable to, despite continued references to Tarmogoyf and Tog, is Quirion Dryad. You have to play this before going off just like Dryad, and the questions are whether you will be able to pump, on average, more than +1/+1 per spell played, then is the amount greater that you've pumped him worth the extra mana requirement from the start. You probably won't be playing Drain in this deck since you want Lorescale Coatl in play as soon as possible, so Sorcery-based draw is okay like Sensei's Divining Top and Thoughtcast (since Gush-Bond, together being sorcery-speed, isn't an option). I think it'd be too cute and unnecessary, though, to try an infinite Top trick.

[zeus-online]

I only mentioned the top since it seems like a natural fit...Not for pumping! Hell, for pumping giant growth is probably better.

/Zeus

[Neonico]

I played Shaymora with /g for coatl at BoM3.
Went 6-1-2, 33rd in a feild of 371
Lost to a Remora Confident buil d(Ze Dark Remora) and 2 draws.

I must say that this creature is INSANE, where psychatog is jut a wall against aggro in the deck.

In remora mirrors, it's just stupid to putt your opponent on a clock ike this, even without let him draw a card from remora. I won so many mirror games just because i played turn 2 coatl and ride it to the victory 2 or 3 turns later. The game plan is so easy once you resolved it : just sit on your hand, bash, and avoid your opponent to win. Every draw spell is a must counter, so it's really easy to control the game.

I tried another build in a Ubg Tog like version (Intuition+Accu+remora, with pitches and Cunning Wish) and it seems to be also really excellent in this shell. The only thing i missed from Tog was to be able to remove my force of will, mana drain, or ancestral recall or 4th Accu to wish for it.

[Guli]

Maybe we are overestimating the fact that he needs to get in there quickly. Maybe he is still good even if he comes down turn 3 or turn 4. I also think that with Coatl you want to have as much permanents that draw you cards because they don't work with momentum like instants. Remora does just that.

I have been experimenting with Coatl myself on theoretical bases. I used Welder builds with Tinker/Jar, a lot of pitch counters, all the draw 7's. Even Browbeat but he is indeed a bit bad. Remora could replace that slot though.

Remora/Force/Misd/Commandeer/All the draw 7's this means timetwister/tinker-Jar/wheel/windfall (i don't like time spiral but maybe he can get in here too)
+Goblin Welder as 1 drop and the natural interaction with Jar. Plus it scares the hell out of people AND he does have a lot other functions but for this deck he will make sure +14/+14 with jar.
Fastbond/Gush/A-recall/Brainstorm/time walk

I wouldn't use ponder or top. They don't boost enough :p