Lorescale Coatl Gro In Vintage

[Neonico]

Here are the 2 lists i tested the night before the tournament, as i was very impressed by coatl the saturday for the legacy event (i was feeling that coatl would be better in vintage than in legacy, and it seems it is) :

1   Inkwhell Leviathan
3   Lorescale Coatl
4   Force of  Will
4   Mana Drain
4   Mystic Remora
3   Meditate
3   Commandeer
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Brainstorm
1   Mystical Tutor
1   Echoing Thruth
1   Merchant Scroll
1   Time walk
1   Tinker
1   Thirst forKnowledge
1   Fact or Fiction
1   Gush
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Yawgmoth's Will
1   Time Vault
1   Voltaic Key
1   Sol Ring
1   Mana Crypt
5   Moxen
1   Black Lotus
1   Tolarian Academy
1   Library of Alexandria
2   Polluted Delta
3   Flooded Strand
2   Underground Sea
3   Tropical Island
2   Island
2   Snow-covered Island

If i would play this tomorrow, i think i would do : -Fact -Thisrt +Gifts + Regrowth

And a more hulk Smash oriented build (that i dissmissed becauseit seemsto be weaker against remoradecks, and the stores on the event soldout remoras on saturday)  :
1   Inkwhell Leviathan
3   Lorescale Coatl
4   Force of  Will
4   Mana Drain
4   Accumulated Knowledge
2   Intuition
2   Cunning Wish
1   Misdirection
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Brainstorm
1 Chain of Vapor
1   Mystical Tutor
1   Echoing Thruth
1   Merchant Scroll
1   Time walk
1   Tinker
1   Rebuild/Hurkyl's Recall
1   Gifst Ungiven
1   Gush
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1   Regrowth
1 Mana Vault
1   Sol Ring
1   Mana Crypt
5   Moxen
1   Black Lotus
1   Tolarian Academy
1   Library of Alexandria
2   Polluted Delta
3   Flooded Strand
2   Underground Sea
3   Tropical Island
2   Island
1   Snow-covered Island

[LennoxLewis86]

To start of with.. I can't see playing a draw7, swing hard and pass the turn is the right strategy in vintage. Almost every deck I think of will abuse the free Draw7 so much it will repay you by winning through the Coatl next turn, or otherwise just get rid of the creature and most importantly, the counters. That's big card-disadvantage..

The creature is better with consistant one-sided draws. A Remora engine with some good drawers like Brainstorm, Recall and Gush seems good. You think Frantic Search could work here? Instead of the single Thirst? It's basically a free and permanent Giant Growth. Tinker/Jar is good also, not your regular Draw7.
I wouldn't play Tendrils here but if you do, try Fastbond. I remember reading an article about the return of Gro with singleton Gush. It could be pretty good here.
Speaking of green, where's Regrowth? If you decide to play Gifts I'd consider adding Regrowth, you'll always get the cards you want! Regrowth is ridiculous on it's own, but with Gifts even more broken.

I like the list, and agree on the fact that in Remora mirrors you're good with this guy in play.

[Neonico]

You're right about fasbond, should be played instead of mana vault in list #2. You draw so much that you allways have tons of cards in hands and many lands to putt in play.... I gonna try it...

Regrowth is in 2nd list.
Also, i switched to Ubg instead of straight Ub with 3 psychatog the night just before the tournament (in fact, even just the morning) and didn't find my regrowth before listing.
But definatly, i would cutt fact and thirst for Gifts and regrowth.

[Lurker101]

This is the list I've been testing on MWS. So far Sylvan Library has been a house! It should not be overlooked. Automatic +3/+3 every turn plus it draws you into more draw spells. The life loss from it has been pretty minor and irrelevant so far.

Lands: 18
4 Tropical Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Library of alexandria

Creatures: 8
4 Lorescale Coatl
4 Tarmogoyf

Other spells: 34
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Gush
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Fastbond
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
4 Mana Drain
2 Null Rod
1 Ponder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Sylvan Library
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Berserk
1 Frantic Search

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

That seems like a really solid shell and Sylvan Library should be a house with Coatl. What about cutting the 3xGemstones for 2xFlooded Strand and 1xVolcanic Island to increase consistancy via fetchlands and still have access to red. I would even cut another land for another fetch to bump up to 5xfetchlands. Also why only 2xNull Rod? Was it consistant enough enough to be worth the slots? It seems like it would be worth making 1 more slot for an extra Null Rod. I assume the lack of Tinker because of the draw-7s and the high chance of actually drawing a fatty? Black Lotus seems to be missing.

Do you think that the fish-style approach with Rods is better than a fully-powered deck going for more explosive draw-7s?

[Lurker101]

Yeah, I completely spaced on not including lotus! Also the deck is consistent enough to usually get a rod out with counter backup when you need the rod out but I may drop a top and add another rod. Tinker-Memory Jar would be the only reason to include tinker. There's been no need for inkwells so far. Also I think the best approach is a mix between the two. Too many draw 7s can get you into trouble and you only need to resolve one to get a lethal coatl so I stuck with the cheapest and best two draw 7s IMO. I know memory jar seems more one sided but you really need to tinker it out and then there is still the danger of them drawing an answer.

[vassago]

Lands: 18
4 Tropical Island
2 Polluted Delta
4 Island
4 Underground Sea
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Library of alexandria

Creatures: 8
4 Lorescale Coatl
4 Tarmogoyf

Other spells: 34
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Gush
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Fastbond
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
4 Mana Drain
2 Null Rod
1 Ponder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Sylvan Library
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Berserk
1 Frantic Search

I think there is a significant lack of Yawgmoth's Will in this list.   Also I think the fourth sylvan library might be excessive.  Another thing i think should be in the deck since you are playing blue is the singleton echoing truth. I really like the card and think it pretty much deserves a spot.  Since you are playing a million tops in your list imagine echoing truthing two tops with the tap effect on the stack.  Seems kind of cool, but I also do not think you need four tops.  I think cutting one or two could leave room for other cards i.e. misdirection, echoing truth blah blah blah. 

Anyway, to clarify my thoughts and suggestions here are the things I immediately notice:
    1. No Yawgmoth's Will. This is what I consider the most important change you could make for obvious reasons.
    2. No bounce spells of any kind in the deck. I do think it is very neccesary to play at least one if not two in the current meta game. The best ones in my opinion for current meta would be Echoing Truth, Hurkyl's Recall and Rebuild. There is also Chain of Vapor and Rushing River, but these may not be as good. 
    3. Personally, I think the Sylvan Library and Sensei's Diving Top counts are a little high.
    4.  Null Rod and Tops might contradict a little bit.  Have you had any problems with this?  Do you think switching them out for more on color moxes might do you any better?  I guess I am asking is if they are really neccesary?
    5. I do think if you are playing heavy blue based decks with Mana Drain, I think the singleton Misdirection could be in the deck.
    6. Last, I do not care for draw sevens unless you are playing strictly combo. I am pretty sure you know the common opinions and arguments for this so i will not waste your time by repeating them.

With all this said, I do like the deck! What do you think about some of the things I have mentioned?

[the boogie man]

If I was to play your deck, these would be my changes at a glance:

-1 sylvan library
-1 sensei's top
-1 drain
-1 wheel of fortune
-2 null rod
-3 gemstone mine
-1 tropical
-1 underground
-1 island
-1 berserk

+1 mox jet
+1 Lotus
+3 fetch
+2 volcanic
+1 misdirection
+2 repeal/echoing truth
+2 cunning wish

and there is another spot. I don't like draw 7's in drain lists, but at least timetwister is game-wining with a coatl out, and it is good when you are losing, acting as a reset button. It may also slow ichorid down, which is a plus.

I also agree with dropping the mines and adding fetches, As well as dropping the rods. If you run drain, I think that the point would be to keep mana up. null rod makes you spend your mana main phase. cunning wish also gives you more instant sped options, like the 4th drain in the side (I don't think that there are enough ways to spend the mana to justify 4), along with another misdirection, which come in when necessary. a couple wishes also allow berserk to be delegated to the side.

repeals could be key as well, because their draw pumps coatl. wishes also allow you to play pretty busted draw spells in the side as 1-ofs, like skeletal scrying.

I might disagree on the yawgwill comment though. With so many permanents, it hardly seems that there would be enough in the yard to be worth it, let alone win the game.

With so many top of the library selection, I'm surprised that counterbalance has not been brought up.

[Lurker101]

Well I took in some of the previous suggestions and came up with this:
Lands: 17
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Island
3 Underground Sea
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Volcanic Island
1 Wooded Foothills

Creatures: 8
4 Lorescale Coatl
4 Tarmogoyf

Other spells: 35
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Gush
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Fastbond
4 Force of Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
3 Mana Drain
1 Ponder
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Sylvan Library
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Frantic Search
1 Misdirection
1 Repeal
1 Echoing Truth
2 Cunning Wish

Sideboard/wishboard:
1 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection
1 Stifle
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Summoner's Pact
3 Pithing Needle
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Echoing Truth
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Repeal
1 Berserk

I decided to keep in Wheel of Fortune because you only need to resolve 1 draw 7 to win and I feel the deck is more consistent with 2 of them. As far as Yawg Will goes I agree with boogieman that the permanent count is too high for it to really make a difference aside from maybe being a win-more card. I would rather run regrowth (which I might do if I decide to cut Wheel of Fortune).

[FlyFlySideOfFry]

What about cutting Frantic Search for Regrowth? Doesn't seem like Frantic would make a huge difference especially considering the amount of topdeck control you already run. Also is Sensei's really that much better than another Sylvan Library since at least Sylvans stack when it comes to drawing cards? I would try:

-1xSensei's Divining Top
-1xFrantic Search

+1xRegrowth
+1xSylvan Library

[Lurker101]

You're right about cutting a top for a library but I'm keeping frantic search in. I already cut wheel of fortune for regrowth. After more testing I think having twister as the only Draw 7 is enough and wheel fuels other decks too well (especially Ichorid).

[Darkenslight]

What about Meditate?  Permanent +4/+4 AND cards is always a bonus.  Most likely as a one-of because of the major drawback on it.

[dangerlinto]

How often are you playing with a full mitt in this deck?  If it's most of the time and you want to play a draw 7, Tolarian Winds is an instant, costs at least one 1 less than all the rest (expect winds of change) and has the added benefit of never being card advantage for your opponent.

Might be worth testing, especially if you are running Will as well.

[LennoxLewis86]

Sylvan Library is great, looking at all the lists this definitely seems like the best draw engine that works well with Coatl. Run 4 if you think you have room to do it. Regrowth should be in there, more so than Wheel of Fortune so it's a good choise to do so.

I'm glad you're trying Frantic Search and decided to stick with it, you're one of few people using this card in a competitive deck.

I agree, I miss Yawgmoth's Will, with Fastbond and fetchlands it's a great card. You have many cards to play with it, even if it's only to Regrowth an Ancestral.
Cards like Ancestral Recall, Gush, Fastbond, Frantic Search, Black Lotus, Tutors all allow you to play it. Was it really such a letdown in testing?

How often are you playing with a full mitt in this deck?  If it's most of the time and you want to play a draw 7, Tolarian Winds is an instant, costs at least one 1 less than all the rest (expect winds of change) and has the added benefit of never being card advantage for your opponent.

Might be worth testing, especially if you are running Will as well.

Even with Will, I think this card gives you all sorts of trouble. It is carddisadvantage for you because you lose the Winds and your opponent keeps the same amount of cards only now he has better cards. Against Ichorid it is awful so I really don't think that could work

[dangerlinto]

Even with Will, I think this card gives you all sorts of trouble. It is carddisadvantage for you because you lose the Winds and your opponent keeps the same amount of cards only now he has better cards. Against Ichorid it is awful so I really don't think that could work

RTC

Tolarian Winds  - 1U
Instant
Discard all the cards in your hand, then draw that many cards.

It doesn't affect your opponent at all. They have the same cards in hand.  Ichorid just watches.  Admittedly, this play is much better with Gush and Brainstorm, but then maybe one day we'll see those back as full playsets.

[Guli]

// Lands
    4  Island
    4  Tropical Island
    4  Flooded Strand
    4  Polluted Delta
    1  Tolarian Academy

// Creatures
    4 [AR] Lorescale Coatl

// Spells
    3  Thirst for Knowledge
    2  Hurkyl's Recall
    3  Upheaval
    4  Deep Analysis
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Merchant Scroll
    2  Cunning Wish
    1  Time Walk
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Regrowth
    4  Force of Will
    1  Mana Crypt
    1 [JGC] Sol Ring
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Emerald
    4  Mana Drain
    4  Tolarian Winds

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Berserk
SB: 4  Seedtime
SB: 1  Stifle
SB: 1  Trickbind
SB: 2  Echoing Truth
SB: 4  Tarmogoyf
SB: 2  Tormod's Crypt

This is what I have been testing.

[mike_bergeron]

// Lands
    4  Island
    4  Tropical Island
    4  Flooded Strand
    4  Polluted Delta
    1  Tolarian Academy

// Creatures
    4 [AR] Lorescale Coatl

// Spells
    3  Thirst for Knowledge
    2  Hurkyl's Recall
    3  Upheaval
    4  Deep Analysis
    1  Mystical Tutor
    1  Merchant Scroll
    2  Cunning Wish
    1  Time Walk
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Regrowth
    4  Force of Will
    1  Mana Crypt
    1 [JGC] Sol Ring
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Emerald
    4  Mana Drain
    4  Tolarian Winds

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Berserk
SB: 4  Seedtime
SB: 1  Stifle
SB: 1  Trickbind
SB: 2  Echoing Truth
SB: 4  Tarmogoyf
SB: 2  Tormod's Crypt

This is what I have been testing.

Is upheavel worth the slot?  It seems counter to what you want to do- which is run out a coatl, protect it and win.  Instead of that, would

-3 Upheavel
+1 Tinker
+1 memory jar
+1 Robot (inkwell?)

Also, is Library better in this slot than Tolarian? I would think library would be house in this build.  My opinion would also be to try to gain advantage through an easy engine like sylvan library as well. 

-1 Tolarian
+1 Library of Alexandria

Tolarian winds sound like a nice combo, but I would run at least one timetwister.

Also, a singleton gush could be great as well, not as powerful as it is with tog, but still good.  I would possibly run a Misdirection as well- I have always liked running one in testing.

[dangerlinto]

Upheaval Seems very Tog-based.  Like if you can't tap sideways on the turn you made a 20/20 tog you'll miss your opportunity.

Coatl is permanent.  No need for upheaval.

I might be tempted to try Comandeer, depeding on your Meta.

Also,  Brainstorm is a must-include.

[Guli]

I posted the wrong list lol

// Lands
    2  Island
    3  Tropical Island
    3  Flooded Strand
    3  Polluted Delta
    1  Tolarian Academy
    3  Underground Sea

// Creatures
    4 [AR] Lorescale Coatl
    4  Tarmogoyf

// Spells
    1  Time Walk
    2  Cunning Wish
    1  Merchant Scroll
    1  Mystical Tutor
    4  Deep Analysis
    1  Ancestral Recall
    2  Hurkyl's Recall
    1  Fastbond
    1  Gush
    1  Yawgmoth's Will
    4  Force of Will
    1  Mox Pearl
    3  Tolarian Winds
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Regrowth
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    1 [JGC] Sol Ring
    1  Mana Crypt
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Vampiric Tutor
    1  Brainstorm
    1  Rebuild
    1  Chain of Vapor
    1  Tendrils of Agony

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Y Jailer
SB: 1  Berserk
SB: 4  Seedtime
SB: 2  Echoing Truth
SB: 2  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1  Stifle
SB: 1  Trickbind
SB; 1 extirpate

Here is the more recent version.

[LennoxLewis86]

Tolarian Winds  - 1U
Instant
Discard all the cards in your hand, then draw that many cards.

You're right about that, I should've checked the card.

Still I think a card like Sylvan Library is better at making the Coatl grow.

[Guli]

Tolarian Winds  - 1U
Instant
Discard all the cards in your hand, then draw that many cards.

You're right about that, I should've checked the card.

Still I think a card like Sylvan Library is better at making the Coatl grow.

If you plan on not killing them on the spot. I killed a lot the very next turn with a Huge Coatl (thanks to tarm)

[policehq]

Tolarian Winds  - 1U
Instant
Discard all the cards in your hand, then draw that many cards.

You're right about that, I should've checked the card.

Still I think a card like Sylvan Library is better at making the Coatl grow.

If you plan on not killing them on the spot. I killed a lot the very next turn with a Huge Coatl (thanks to tarm)

After resolving Tarmogoyf and Lorescale Coatl, I really don't think it matters much whether you resolve Tolarian Winds or Sylvan Library, because it's the third bomb you've successfully played on your opponent (and other decks could take care of this situation much better). Nevermind the fact that after acceleration, counter magic, and the threats themselves, Tolarian Winds is not good at all.

This is of course discounting Upheaval situations, because if Upheaval were ever potentially playable, it would've been played with Tog a long time ago. What decks are allowing you to ramp up to between six, seven, or nine mana so well (depending on what power is in play and whether you have Fastbond)? If you have found a defensive shell that allows you to build up so much mana, is Upheaval + Tarmogoyf + Lorescale Coatl + Tolarian Winds the best way to take advantage of that scenario? I don't think so.

[LennoxLewis86]

Yes, good point. I also believe that the -1 cardadvantage and the fact that Winds only works well with Deep Analysis and Coatl makes it a subpar choise.
At least Sylvan Library is a decent card without it's combo counterpart, because it's a permanent. The ability happens automatically meaning you can use your lands in addition to gaining 3 counters per turn. This makes the Library arguably more potent in terms of dealing a lot of damage in 1 turn. The main difference, ofcourse, is that Tolarian Winds is an instant and that can surprise the opponent and mess up his calculations.

I can't see a Tolarian Winds come off for more than 3, perhaps 4. The Library on it's own will add 3 counters per turn. not to mention the extra option of paying 4 life per card. An ability like this is actually pretty good in vintage because you play cards that should be more expensive than 4 life to be maintained in your hand, Ancestral Recall, Tinker or Yawgmoth's Will win games on their own.

I do have to disagree on the whole bomb comment. Bombs win games by themselves, and although Goyf puts up a clock it takes a few turns and filled graveyards to win you the game. The same goes for Coatl, you don't really have to counter it. I'd rather counter the subtle Brainstorm that he tries to pump the creature with AFTER resolving the Coatl.
People will probably let a Sylvan Library resolve, even if they could counter it. They will wait until they see you're trying to resolve a Coatl before they would understand why Sylvan Library is a threat in this deck. That is why I would most definitely recommend discard spells. Like I said, it would be an ideal plan to try and resolve a Sylvan Library. Then wait until you find a big guy to kill your opponent with, clear the way with Duress, then drop the creature. In the ideal scenario you didn't even have to use a FoW to get your current board out which means you're backed up.

By replacing the Deep Analysis with Sylvan Library and the Tolarian Winds with Duress/Thoughtseize I think the list is better.

Sylvan Library has great synergy with fetchlands not to forget, you're playing 6 fetchlands. I really can't see why Tolarian Winds would fit this build better?

[policehq]

Just be careful not to bicker about Sylvan Library versus Tolarian Winds enough to forget that neither are very good.

[LennoxLewis86]

Then would you care to explain why you think Sylvan Library isn't good in this deck? 

Or maybe throw some other options out there? Your last comment doesn't really help this way.

[Troy_Costisick]

Then would you care to explain why you think Sylvan Library isn't good in this deck? 

The primary problem is that it doesn't affect the game state the turn it comes into play.  Sylvan Library does nothing to help you advance your plan nor anything to prevent your opponent from advancing his right away.  You have to wait until your next turn for it to have any affect.

[LennoxLewis86]

Then would you care to explain why you think Sylvan Library isn't good in this deck? 

The primary problem is that it doesn't affect the game state the turn it comes into play.  Sylvan Library does nothing to help you advance your plan nor anything to prevent your opponent from advancing his right away.  You have to wait until your next turn for it to have any affect.

I get your point, at least most of it. Since Dark Confidant is comparable, his effect also comes a turn later and he costs 2 mana. Confidant is one of the better spells spells in vintage, despite the fact it doesn't affect the gamestate when it hits play. Sylvan Library is a weaker card sure, but it is more difficult to remove and seems to work really well with the Coatl.

[policehq]

Mostly I think people in this thread are focusing a lot on making Lorescale Coatl a massive beatstick by trying to find some new synergy with any old card that says "Draw." Just put Lorescale Coatl in a defensive shell with an engine that's already proven to be decent: Thirst for Knowledge, Intuition/AK, and particularly I think theoretically Meditate/Remora should work well. Reason being, Mystic Remora kind of sucks against creature-based decks, and Lorescale Coatl can be a decent little Moat after a turn.

[dangerlinto]

Mostly I think people in this thread are focusing a lot on making Lorescale Coatl a massive beatstick by trying to find some new synergy with any old card that says "Draw." Just put Lorescale Coatl in a defensive shell with an engine that's already proven to be decent: Thirst for Knowledge, Intuition/AK, and particularly I think theoretically Meditate/Remora should work well. Reason being, Mystic Remora kind of sucks against creature-based decks, and Lorescale Coatl can be a decent little Moat after a turn.

Well for one thing, I only made Tolarian Winds as a suggestion.  It would be a no brainer with unrestricted Gush, for sure - you'd practically always Tolarian into another (and/or another gush) and have yourself a one-swing wonder - but that's neither here nor there since Gush is still restricted.

And I can't disagree with your analysis, since that is definitely (in theory) a good way to play Coatl.

However, I hear massive beatsticks that require you to do nothing but draw cards are good.  And the more massive the beatstick, the less chance of the opponent winning.  Attcaking with a 3/3, then a 6/6 and then a 10/10 is not nearly as good as attacking with a 9/9 then an 10/10.   If you can accomplish that with just one card, that card is effectively a Time Walk.  I don't consider "focusing" (as you put it) on that tactic a bad idea.  What I do consider a bad idea is dismissing it out of hand.  Let some testing show what it can or can't do.

[wiley]

I tried tolarian winds to pump the snake.  My findings were that it became too mana intensive.  You had to spend mana on draw spells to keep your hand up and then cast the winds.  If you don't run out one or more raw card advantage spells like ancestral or and already strong remora (which makes it hard to play the snake) then winds kind of blows, often only getting 2-3 cards which often won't be as good as what you discard.

Even if someone finds a way to break it, it would probably end up being better to just skip the winds and use the awesome draw engine you found with more back up.

The bazaar loam engine I (Meadbert) found didn't support winds, so I didn't even have to question whether or not to include it.