[FREE Article] So Many Insane Articles: The 250th

[TheShop]

I wonder if the new sac lands will cause you guys to Crop Rotate for Strip more often than Bazaar.

[CorwinB]

Barbarian Ring comes back from Crucible whenever you want it. Valakut needs 7 other mountains to work, and it's really difficult to trigger it multiple times (something like strip mine your mountain, replay it with crucible?) so thats 1/3 as fast as B-Ring, and loses utility.

Zuran Orb ?

[MirariKnight]

So then we would have a 3 card combo that's totally useless on it's own and isn't synergistic with Null Rod, which we should be running. I don't think there is any way that Valakut can possibly be superior to Barbarian Ring, especially since there is nothing wrong with Barbarian Ring. The only was Valakut is playable is if you somehow get a million mountains and it into play at the same time, which obviously isn't Stax related.

[Bruised]

I think that Null Rod is critical to decks like that Mono Red one, especially considering it's not relying on moxen for color fixing like 5C does. Definitely better than some number of sphere effects, and it's also nice that it actively prevents the situation where they somehow assemble vault/key out of a seemingly impossible lock.

I agree completely, I play B/R Stax and null rod is an absolute house against Tez, which represents the biggest slice of my meta (would say about 50%).  As a lock card, its the nuts, especially with many other decks throwing in vault/key as an additional win con.

[TheShop]

First, I don't like knocking out my own moxen.   There is no deck in Vintage that likes to draw every single mox as much as this.

That's one reason I can't fathom Null Rod in here.   Second, I have Shaman to kill moxen (and Karn). 

Finally, as for sweeprs, my god I have the best of all: Balance!

3.  Furthermore, if you are attempting to hold down your opponents mana, why aren't you running cards like Chalice of the Void?  Chalices nuke Moxen if you're on the play and aren't dead draws in the mid to late game, as a Chalice on two is exceptionally devastating against many decks.

Chalice of the Void is too symmetrical in 5c Stax.  It always has been despite our attempts otherwise.   With Brainstorm restricted, it's worse than ever, imo.

I do not think that this is accurate:  we have tinker, 4 welders, 3-4 smokestacks, and both null rod and chalice get countered:  you are assuming that these components stay in play during your turn when this is not always necessary.  You can just wait until you rip chalice #2 off the top and then let yours dies and be welded so that you can drop all your moxes and then replay the lock components. This is actually more ways to get rid of chalice and rod than most of the stax decks that run it already.

[Neonico]

@Stormaningus : i really love your list, save the lack of a big finisher. I would play 2/3 karn and the 4th stack in instead of the thorn of amethyst slots.

[CowWithHat]

Mono-Red Shops

Land (23):
4 Mishra’s Workshop
5 Mountain
4 Barbarian Ring
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad

Artifacts (33):
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Sphere Of Resistance
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
3 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire
3 Smokestack
1 Trinisphere

Creatures (4):
4 Goblin Welder

SB
4 Ravnous Trap
3 Tabernacle at The Pendrell Vale
4 Shattering Spree
4 Ensnaring Bridge

With only Welders and Crucibles as sources of graveyard recursion I don't think this deck wants Bazaar.  Those two cards are going to be powerful in this deck regardless of whether or not you have a bazaar out, and bazaar is going to be bad without them.  Smokestack also doesn't seem that strong to me.  The fact that I would cut both of them kind of undercuts this point, but they also don't have a terribly high amount of synergy (fewer cards means fewer permanents, and fewer permanents means worse stacks).

I think this list would benefit heavily from the removal of a crucible, 3 stax, and the bazaars.  In doing this the deck frees up space for 4 magus of the moon, 2 gorilla shaman and 2 triskellion.  Creatures are a much more logical call then smokestack in this deck because everything that the stack does a critter will often do better, for cheaper, while also providing additional abilities. 

The biggest thing about Smokestack is the inevitability it provides when it hits the table.  Magus provides the same thing in a different way, it reduces the number of permanents your opponent can play effectively.  Though the magus takes 10 turns to actually kill someone, whereas a stack can effectively kill the opponent in closer to 2 or 3, it has its impact the moment you play it.  In addition to the obvious impact of its ability the magus also blocks things which can be vital.

The strength of the magus was always the reason to play mono red in my mind.  It is a card that takes games by itself.  Trike loves to kill confidant almost as much as he likes being a fatty that can sometimes only take two land taps to cast.  He also plays "big man" better then karn in fish matchups because he fights like a 4/4 (unlike karn who does not have any capacity to a kill a fish player with a creature and a null rod).  Gorilla shaman, like smokestack, clears permanents off the board.  However, like the magus, its effect on the board is immediate.  The shaman also has obvious synergy with chalice.  He can kill your own chalice if you want to free up the power in your hand and he can stall the opponent into not playing their power until after you find a chalice

For reference my list for Mono Red Shop Control would look like this:

Land (19):
4 Mishra’s Workshop
5 Mountain
2 Barbarian Ring
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Scalding Tarn/Wooded Foothills/Arid Mesa/Bloodstained Mire

Artifacts (29):
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Sphere Of Resistance
4 Thorn Of Amethyst
2 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere

Creatures (12):
4 Goblin Welder
4 Magus of the Moon
2 Triskellion
2 Gorilla shaman

The side board is contentious based on your environment.

[BruiZar]

@ CowWithaHat

That list is much much stronger than both the proposed list of Stormagicus and Stephen Menendian. I favor moon effects so much that I was contemplating whether or not I should add City of Traitors and Simian Spirit Guides for first turn Moons.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

With only Welders and Crucibles as sources of graveyard recursion I don't think this deck wants Bazaar.  Those two cards are going to be powerful in this deck regardless of whether or not you have a bazaar out, and bazaar is going to be bad without them.  Smokestack also doesn't seem that strong to me.  The fact that I would cut both of them kind of undercuts this point, but they also don't have a terribly high amount of synergy (fewer cards means fewer permanents, and fewer permanents means worse stacks).

The biggest thing about Smokestack is the inevitability it provides when it hits the table.  Magus provides the same thing in a different way, it reduces the number of permanents your opponent can play effectively.  Though the magus takes 10 turns to actually kill someone, whereas a stack can effectively kill the opponent in closer to 2 or 3, it has its impact the moment you play it.  In addition to the obvious impact of its ability the magus also blocks things which can be vital.

Bazaar is actually very good in the deck, as it helps you filter cards and dig for whatever you need, be it answers, mana, or specific types of disruption.  It can be quite good even without Welder or Cow, and is insane with them.  You can compare Bazaar to Wasteland/Strip Mine--it is a solid card without Cow, but with Cow becomes truly broken.  And of course Bazaar+Welder often simply wins games flat out.

You really want Stack in this deck, unless you add even more beaters and turn it into a Shop Aggro deck.  You are right in saying that Stack is not strong on its own, because it does not have an immediate effect, but it has incredible synergy with the rest of the deck.  It lets you deal with anything on the board, which is important when facing down Tinkered/Oathed creatures and the like.  Stack is what makes the deck Mono Red Control, because it is what allows you to achieve a hard lock.  Magus is a bear that causes colour screw; it is not really comparable to Smokestack in how it functions in the deck.  

I cannot count the number of games I have won against Stacks because I built up a board while they could not find Smokestack to cement the lock--this illustrates just how critical Stack is, and also how good Bazaar is, since it helps you find it instead of just playing draw go for 10 turns, giving your opponent a chance to find outs.

To put it simply, this is basically how the deck plays out in a game:
1-plays Spheres/Chalice
2-play Wire
3-play Stack
Then you win--Welder and Bazaar are ideal for supporting your game plan.  With your proposed build you would play the same stuff first, but then try to beat them down before they can recover.  It is better to simply play Stack and go for the throat.

[CowWithHat]

Bazaar is actually very good in the deck, as it helps you filter cards and dig for whatever you need, be it answers, mana, or specific types of disruption.  It can be quite good even without Welder or Cow, and is insane with them.  You can compare Bazaar to Wasteland/Strip Mine--it is a solid card without Cow, but with Cow becomes truly broken.  And of course Bazaar+Welder often simply wins games flat out.

I have to agree with smmemen here.  Bazaar ain't that great, here.  You don't play a game winning combo like dragon, a silly engine like dredge, nor do you play a mitigator like squee.  This card taps for card disadvantage.

Of course Bazaar does something, that is why it is in any build of this deck.  I think it doesn't do enough to warrant a slot.  It is anti-synergetic with magus, which is obnoxious, it is a card that threatens no opposing strategy when it is on the board and does not actually move towards a victory without aide from a welder or a crucible.  I think its weak.

You really want Stack in this deck, unless you add even more beaters and turn it into a Shop Aggro deck.  You are right in saying that Stack is not strong on its own, because it does not have an immediate effect, but it has incredible synergy with the rest of the deck.  It lets you deal with anything on the board, which is important when facing down Tinkered/Oathed creatures and the like.  Stack is what makes the deck Mono Red Control, because it is what allows you to achieve a hard lock.  Magus is a bear that causes colour screw; it is not really comparable to Smokestack in how it functions in the deck. 

I would say that a build with Trike has a better shot of dealing with a tinker robot then Smokestack does.  Unless they played the tinker as a last ditch effort against you when you already had a stack out, most of the time they will sacrifice everything else and the robot will kill you first.  Magus is a card that actually takes your opponent to a place where he can't win (having 0 life).  Smokestack also does something of that effect (having no board against a field of spheres and such).  That is the comparison I wanted to be evident, perhaps it was not.

I believe the aspects of the deck that make it control are, Magus, Welder, Crucible lock, Spheres, Chalice, barbarian Ring, wasteland, and strip mine.  I would argue that Smokestack is an aggressive play in this deck, but someone would yell at me for using that word.  I think Smokestack is one of cards in the deck that is played as a finisher.  If it is your first disruptive play, that probably isn't that strong against a good majority of the field (yeah if your turn one is mox, then shop, then chalice, then Stack and the other guy has no force or wasteland you are probably doing something strong).

I cannot count the number of games I have won against Stacks because I built up a board while they could not find Smokestack to cement the lock--this illustrates just how critical Stack is, and also how good Bazaar is, since it helps you find it instead of just playing draw go for 10 turns, giving your opponent a chance to find outs.
 they can recover.  It is better to simply play Stack and go for the throat.

I cannot count the number of times I have beaten stacks when they had a smokestack out that didn't destroy my mana base.  I see your argument, I think it is fallacious.  When you move up to 12 beaters you seriously limit the amount of time the other guy has to get out of the situation.  If you go any higher you lose lock elements.  It is my opinion that Stack isn't really a lock element.  It is the the finisher; and it is a weak one.

To put it simply, this is basically how the deck plays out in a game:
1-plays Spheres/Chalice
2-play Wire
3-play Stack
Then you win--Welder and Bazaar are ideal for supporting your game plan.  With your proposed build you would play the same stuff first, but then try to beat them down before they can recover.  It is better to simply play Stack and go for the throat.

When you play a shop on turn one, use it to play a sphere, then cast a chalice, and nothing gets countered that is a great opening.  When you follow it up with wire because they didn't waste your shop you are well on your way to winning.  If you play magus, welder, smokestack, triskellion, karn, or even mountain goat most of the time, this game is probably going your way.  That Smokestack is the game ender in your scenario but it could just as well be a slew of other game enders.  Admittedly, in this specific scenario, if you have no other gas, the stack will probably end the game best.  However, in pretty much any other scenario I'd rather have a card that does something before three turns from now (one turn blank, one turn where they sac one thing, the third time actually makes them lose some board position relative to you).

You haven't actually made a point regarding how welder and bazaar support this game plan that I can see.  That is not to say they don't.  My point is if you are running up against a wall of denial in the form of duress, Force of will, daze, spell pierce, quasali Pridemage, and/or mana drain that bazaar is maybe giving you gas, but it is doing so at the cost of inevitability should your gas get stymied.  Welder is fantastic and I don't think there is disagreement from anyone on that score, so yeah. Don't know why you even mentioned it.

[Neonico]

In the actual metagame, in a list without a tutor, and in a control build, and with the new fetchlands allowing more basics, i woudl allways favor smokestacks over thorn of amethyst... Thorn is actually really bad in any non aggro shop build, and overall bad considering the rise of fish and alot more creature are played since the last wave of restricts. That's also why i think that moon effects tend to become bad actually too.

From Storm's list, i would definatly cutt the 4 thorn for beaters and 4th stack. Even chalice of the void isn't that great.

Smokestack is an absolute must have, and yes, combined with tangle wires, it's a very good way to deal with anything, save sometimes Vault/key.

The number of cards that can recurr something from the yard is 7, exactly like in dragon, i don't see why it would be bad to play bazaar in that deck. The only thing that is missing in storm's list is a finisher, could be karn mainly, possibly magus but i don't really like it that much.

[TheShop]

@cow:
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Sphere Of Resistance
4 Thorn Of Amethyst

You have the potential with this to lock out the early game for sure.  But, if you have that great opening hand mentioned earlier where you go Sphere + Chalice off a shop and no other permanent, you are VERY open for attack.  If that shop gets stripped, it is very possible for your opponent to build up and cast their bounce spell before you win (because you now MUST have workshop to play through, or else a great many turns).  This scenario would be less scary with more crucibles.

We are a little off 5-color aren't we?

[CowWithHat]

I apologize for making a tangential comment.  The discussion between me and Shop about Mono Red Stax most likely belongs elsewhere.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I have to agree with smmemen here.  Bazaar ain't that great, here.  You don't play a game winning combo like dragon, a silly engine like dredge, nor do you play a mitigator like squee.  This card taps for card disadvantage.

Of course Bazaar does something, that is why it is in any build of this deck.  I think it doesn't do enough to warrant a slot.  It is anti-synergetic with magus, which is obnoxious, it is a card that threatens no opposing strategy when it is on the board and does not actually move towards a victory without aide from a welder or a crucible.  I think its weak.

Vampiric Tutor, Mystical Tutor, and Imperial seal are all card disadvantage, too.   They are good because they gain you card quality by finding a specific card that you need.  In a deck as redundant as Mono Red Stax, Bazaar often functions as a mini-vampiric tutor by finding you a card.  Furthermore, even if you do not have Welder/Cow on the table every time you use Bazaar, your deck still possesses the means to abuse the cards in your graveyard later on, and every card you draw increases your chances of getting Cow/Welder.  Saying that Bazaar is anti-synergistic with Magus is not a good argument; so is Mishra's Workshop.  Also, I don't support the inclusion of Magus in a build like yours either, so it is a moot point.

I would say that a build with Trike has a better shot of dealing with a tinker robot then Smokestack does.  Unless they played the tinker as a last ditch effort against you when you already had a stack out, most of the time they will sacrifice everything else and the robot will kill you first.  Magus is a card that actually takes your opponent to a place where he can't win (having 0 life).  Smokestack also does something of that effect (having no board against a field of spheres and such).  That is the comparison I wanted to be evident, perhaps it was not.

How does Trike deal with Tinker/Robot?  Am I missing something here?  Also, comparing Magus to Smokestack by saying that both contribute to you winning the game is ridiculous; ultimately, every card in your deck should do this, and that does not necessarily make them similar cards.  Stack usually deals with Tinker/Robot in combination with Tangle Wire.

I think Smokestack is one of cards in the deck that is played as a finisher.  If it is your first disruptive play, that probably isn't that strong against a good majority of the field (yeah if your turn one is mox, then shop, then chalice, then Stack and the other guy has no force or wasteland you are probably doing something strong).

That is in fact exactly what I said; look at the order I said the deck plays out in.  Smokestack is your finisher because it gives you a hard lock.

When you move up to 12 beaters you seriously limit the amount of time the other guy has to get out of the situation.  If you go any higher you lose lock elements.  It is my opinion that Stack isn't really a lock element.  It is the the finisher; and it is a weak one.

Of your "12 beaters," 6 are 1/1s and 4 are 2/2s.  Trike is the only creature that actually puts your opponent on a significant clock.  Stack is both a finisher and a lock element; it is the final piece of the puzzle that wins you the game.  By playing creatures instead, you are hoping to beat down your opponent before they have time to recover and draw out of your lock; this is in fact a valid strategy--it's what Shop Aggro does.  The problem with your list is that your clock is not fast enough.  It is better to simply play Stack and lock them out of the game in 2 turns than try to beat down for 5 or more turns.

That Smokestack is the game ender in your scenario but it could just as well be a slew of other game enders.

The fact that other cards can win you the game in the same situation is irrelevant; the question is what card is BEST.  

Admittedly, in this specific scenario, if you have no other gas, the stack will probably end the game best.  However, in pretty much any other scenario I'd rather have a card that does something before three turns from now (one turn blank, one turn where they sac one thing, the third time actually makes them lose some board position relative to you).

What do you mean by "any other scenario"?  Can you give a specific example to illustrate your point?  Welder also does nothing for a turn; that does not necessarily make it a bad card.  You say Stack will usually lock them out in 2 turns.  That is the equivalent clock of a 10 power unblockable artifact creature for 4 mana--how is that not the best finisher?

You haven't actually made a point regarding how welder and bazaar support this game plan that I can see.  That is not to say they don't.  My point is if you are running up against a wall of denial in the form of duress, Force of will, daze, spell pierce, quasali Pridemage, and/or mana drain that bazaar is maybe giving you gas, but it is doing so at the cost of inevitability should your gas get stymied.  Welder is fantastic and I don't think there is disagreement from anyone on that score, so yeah. Don't know why you even mentioned it.

I said that Bazaar gets you the cards you need to win.  I mentioned Bazaar and Welder right after the section where I outlined the main order of plays of artifact disruption, to explain how they worked in terms of that simplified game plan.  I did not explain how Welder contributed to this because, as you noted, it is obvious.

To explain more on Bazaar: even if you don't have Welder/Cow, you are often discarding redundant lock pieces, mana sources, or other useless cards (such cards that you cannot cast because of Chalice, for example), so you are basically trading cards that do nothing to see more cards.  If you have nothing you want to discard or don't need anything, great--you are winning anyway; simply don't activate it.

The Mono Red Stax list that Storm posted is quite good, because of its redundancy, consistency, and synergy.  All the lock pieces work together to constrain and then finally overwhelm the opponent.

[Stormanimagus]

In the actual metagame, in a list without a tutor, and in a control build, and with the new fetchlands allowing more basics, i woudl allways favor smokestacks over thorn of amethyst... Thorn is actually really bad in any non aggro shop build, and overall bad considering the rise of fish and alot more creature are played since the last wave of restricts. That's also why i think that moon effects tend to become bad actually too.

From Storm's list, i would definatly cutt the 4 thorn for beaters and 4th stack. Even chalice of the void isn't that great.

Smokestack is an absolute must have, and yes, combined with tangle wires, it's a very good way to deal with anything, save sometimes Vault/key.

The number of cards that can recurr something from the yard is 7, exactly like in dragon, i don't see why it would be bad to play bazaar in that deck. The only thing that is missing in storm's list is a finisher, could be karn mainly, possibly magus but i don't really like it that much.

Yeah, after talking to my friend Ici about it I'd certainly be cutting the 4 Thorns for Null Rods. Here's what I think a good "lock-down" mono-red list would look like right now:

Mono-Red Shops

Land (23):
4 Mishra’s Workshop
5 Mountain
4 Barbarian Ring
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Bazaar Of Baghdad

Artifacts (33):
1 Black Lotus
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Sphere Of Resistance
4 Null Rod
3 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire
3 Smokestack
1 Trinisphere

Creatures (4):
4 Goblin Welder

SB
4 Ravnous Trap
3 Tabernacle at The Pendrell Vale
4 Shattering Spree
4 Ensnaring Bridge

Let me explain my thoughts on the list to attempt to address concerns that folks have brought up.

Some might be asking:

4 B-Ring?
4 Bazaar?
3 SB Tabernacle?
4 SB Ensnaring Bridge?
No MD Fatty Finisher?

As others have pointed out, Smokestack IS the finisher in this deck and so 4 MD B-Ring means that you should be able to achieve that lock in a timely fashion so as not to go to time in the match. If you are a trained pilot with the deck there is no reason you should need the crutch of running Karn/Titan or really any Robot for that matter. It just seems like the weak players out to a misplay.

4 Bazaar is there to increase the draw power of the deck and it is perhaps one of the most underrated cards around. It is misunderstood in the Stax shell, but I can tell you right now that I've been on the receiving end of an active Bazaar as a fish player and it is not pretty. Once Welder hits Bazaar = "I control all aspects of the game and can funk around with any lock-piece I've dug for."

SB Tabernacles are for Fish and Ichorid and are (apparently) extremely effective in those match-ups

Ensnaring Bridge is mainly for Oath, but also Ichorid and Fish as your hand should be to 0 relatively quick.

-Storm

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

one more thing about smokestack:
IF it is active, your opponents will have a hard time going infinite turns... Where they would laugh in the face of a magus of the moon, because vault-key is an artifact win condition. On top of that, many Tezz decks run red themselves (for ingot chewers, fire/ice, gorilla shaman etc.) and there is always the possibility that they already have an island in play, in which case the magus becomes weak.
Magus really is only good when played turn one, lotus--> magus.
 

[TheShop]

If they get Tezz in play, they will assemble Vault + Key...and then take infinite turns while your stack stays at one while searching for a mox every turn until they find a tutor that brings out tinker + Robot and you lose, OR- they just sacrifice lands and up the tez count to 5 and kill you.  Most of the time they have enough permanents to win with several turns in a row in my experience even without tezz because they only need 3 turns of robot swinging.

If you ramp up to try and stop this you may (rarely) find them skipping a turn.