[Free Article] 5c Stax in Action

[Smmenen]

My position is that it is a mistake to load up on cards because or in part because of the presence of multiple Crop Rotations.  My view, at the highest level of abstraction is that this is a johnny design move, not a Spike one.   The same is true of Tinker.  Just because you run Tinker doesn't mean you should include suboptimal Tinker targets.  One of the reasons that I think that blue decks can get away with having a dead draw is that they have (had) multiple Thirst for Knowledge and Brainstorms to shuffle away the giant robot.   

Crop Rotation's presence does not justify including a toolbox of suboptimal lands that you wouldn't play if you didn't have Crop Rotation.    I think that's an easy error to make, but one that is wrong.   Each card has to carry its own weight in your opening hand in Stax on account of just how important the not losing is in the first instance and within the first few turns. 

[Sean Ryan]

Damn, some of you seriously need to switch to decaff and stop acting like children.  People are so intent on conflict they can't pick up on an obviously tongue in cheek remark.

Those of you actually responding to deck design - thank you.  Let's try to salvage this thread as we are at a major metagame shift where Workshop in particular has potential.

I will say that Bazaar and Titan are either in or out as a package.  If you don't run Bazaar, Titan is just a hugely overcosed dude.  If you run bazaar giving yourself 1 or 2 game breakers like Titan or Jar make sense.  I see the logic behind either choice... its really consistancy v brokenness (conditional on having welder). 

     

If you run Titan is dependant on Bazaar, Bazaar is not dependant upon Titan as the last ICBM open proved. 

In Steve's last article/thread, I argued for Titan and "fools gold".  My reasoning is that while you have an equal chance of drawing either Tinker or Titan in your opening hand, the benefits of turning Tinker into a bomb that wins you the game outweighs the costs of having Titan in your hand, especially with Bazaar.  I thought Prospero's post on Tinker, Titan, Bazaar was actually quite articulate and agree with him in substance.  His point about the role of time and how tutors waste time that should be applied to threats was also excellent and I'm surprised more people haven't replied to it.  Perhaps it's because everyone is so caught up in the pissing contest.

 

but I am pretty certain that in this current metagame, if you aren't playing null rod in stax, you're pretty much doing it as wrong as you possibly can.

QFT

Why has no one bothered to address this?  I argued the same point earlier, 2 out of the 3 Stax decks to make top8 at the ICBM open ran Rod, Rod Fish dominated, yet this isn't being discussed?

Does having access to colored spells like Tinker and Balance really out weigh Null Rod and a higher number of lock pieces in a metagame where the deck to beat gets absolutely hosed by it?  I think not.  5c Stax usually runs 16-17 lock pieces - I want to include Null Rod and have 19-20 lock components that increases the probability that I can drop multiple threats turns 1-3.

My position is that it is a mistake to load up on cards because or in part because of the presence of multiple Crop Rotations.  My view, at the highest level of abstraction is that this is a johnny design move, not a Spike one.   The same is true of Tinker.  Just because you run Tinker doesn't mean you should include suboptimal Tinker targets.  One of the reasons that I think that blue decks can get away with having a dead draw is that they have (had) multiple Thirst for Knowledge and Brainstorms to shuffle away the giant robot.   

Crop Rotation's presence does not justify including a toolbox of suboptimal lands that you wouldn't play if you didn't have Crop Rotation.    I think that's an easy error to make, but one that is wrong.   Each card has to carry its own weight in your opening hand in Stax on account of just how important the not losing is in the first instance and within the first few turns. 

Good point.

The thing is even if Crop was unrestricted I would still run Titan and Bazaar if I was playing 5c Stax.  However, IF is the key word. 

Your point about each card carrying weight in the opening hand is quite accurate and another reason I don't think 5c Stax is the optimal  Workshop build.  If you apply this principle broadly to deck design it takes you away from 5c builds and toward B/R, R/G, and Mud - all of which have more synergy, redundancy, and raw power respectively.     

Sean

[BruiZar]

@Sean

The list I posted includes Null Rod. The reasoning for this is that (regardless of Time Vault / Key being a degenerate combo), Stax wants to limit the ability for its opponent to cast spells. That's why crucibles, strips and mox monkeys are played. Thats what tangle wire and smokestack do. A first turn Null Rod can set up second turn strip recursion with crucible, severely restricting your opponents manueaverability (Will never get drain mana up, only tutors for answers are vamp and seal). Also worth noting is that Tetravus is unaffected by Null Rod, unlike Pentavus and Triskelavus.

[Smmenen]

I will say that Bazaar and Titan are either in or out as a package.  If you don't run Bazaar, Titan is just a hugely overcosed dude.  If you run bazaar giving yourself 1 or 2 game breakers like Titan or Jar make sense.  I see the logic behind either choice... its really consistancy v brokenness (conditional on having welder). 

     

If you run Titan is dependant on Bazaar, Bazaar is not dependant upon Titan as the last ICBM open proved. 

In Steve's last article/thread, I argued for Titan and "fools gold".  My reasoning is that while you have an equal chance of drawing either Tinker or Titan in your opening hand, the benefits of turning Tinker into a bomb that wins you the game outweighs the costs of having Titan in your hand, especially with Bazaar. 

I think that's essentially the issue.

On the one hand, you have the benefits of Titan (being a Tinker target) and on the other, you have the costs (drawing it in your opening hand).

In my view, the latter is much more important.   In my view, the absolutely most essential first step for Stax is survival: that is, utilizing its opening hand to not lose the game in the first four turns.   After that, the win condition is less important.

It is 100% true that there will be games where Tinkering for Sundering Titan will solidify your win and move the game from a soft-lock to an unbeatable or near-unbeatable position.  But it's also true that there will be games where you will lose due to having a dead card in your opening hand.

Without unbelievable amounts of data there is no way to know which is greater.   And even then, there are constantly shifting variables such as deck composition and metagame composition that make such an assessment virtually impossible even if you have enough testing data.

That means that the issue is one that can only be answered through reasoning or approximated through reasoning. 

My argument, at it's most basic, is the opposite of yours:  The cost of drawing Titan in the opening hand outweigh the benefits of having it as a later game Tinker target or play.

Here are my two core reasons:

1) Surviving the Early Game is the priority.   Sundering Titan does not help towards that end. 

2) Once Stax has survived the early game, the precise nature of the win condition is much less relevant.   Karn or Trike are perfectly fine as win conditions.   Tinker is already strong enough: you can get Trinisphere, Stack, sideboard cards, or Karn or Trike, depending on the situation.   

I believe -- although I could be wrong -- that Stax players have made a simple observation: they have seen how Sundering Titan has hit the table -- often through Tinker -- won the game, reinforcing the early decision to include it.

Over time, 5c Stax pilots have settled on Titan.  In fact, most 5c Stax pilost have been running it at least since Roland Chang's victory in 2005:

4 City of Brass
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Strip Mine
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Triskelion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Trinisphere
3 Sphere of Resistance
3 Crucible Of Worlds
3 Thirst For Knowledge
4 Tangle Wire
1 Barbarian Ring
4 Wasteland
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Balance
4 Goblin Welder
1 Tinker
1 Crop Rotation
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Karn, Silver Golem
4 Smokestack
1 Vampiric Tutor
3 Gemstone Mine

That doesn't mean the decision is correct.  It's strong evidence that it's correct.   But I suspect that there is a misassociation at play here.   

Over time, success at using Sundering Titan to finish games has become confused with *winning* the games.  It's a simple psychological error.   The Sundering Titan is salient.   It's like when an opponent has drawn a billion cards, plays Yawgmoth's Will and casts Tendrils.   The Tendrils technically won the game, but it could have been almost anything.   The Sundering Titan is merely the thing that is most obvious.   

But what is missed in this analysis is the opportunity cost of Titan.   While Titan is a great finisher, that doesn't mean it's optimal.  The strong association in Stax player's minds with Titan and winning continues to reinforce the belief that Titan is optimal.   It's a simple trick of the mind.

That's why I called Titan, in retort to Nick, an "advanced player's error."   Because it is advanced Stax players -- those who have the most experience with Stax -- who are most likely to suffer this false association. 


I believe that PoliceHQ hit the nail on the head:

Prospero, I wonder if you might be contradicting yourself with your points about early pressure, the most important turns being 2-4, and the insistence of including Sundering Titan. If you do draw Sundering Titan during this important early period, you've limited your ability to achieve the deck's crucial goal, right?

Secondly, I'm not sure that a Stax quasi-mirror match would necessarily prove Steve is "wrong" that his list is worse against The Metagame. That sounds illogical and unreasonable.

 I thought Prospero's post on Tinker, Titan, Bazaar was actually quite articulate and agree with him in substance.  His point about the role of time and how tutors waste time that should be applied to threats was also excellent and I'm surprised more people haven't replied to it.  Perhaps it's because everyone is so caught up in the pissing contest.

While I am certainly disappointed in how Nick turned this conversation from a debate over certain card choices into something else, and became very angry at me and took my points as personal criticisms rather than good natured debate, I did not overlook those points.  I did find them problematic though.

For example:

By trying to play around cards, instead of through cards, you have sacrificed one of your advantages.  Mishra's Workshop has afforded you speed.  If you sacrifice speed for timing you've sacrificed the primary benefit of Workshop.  A Drain deck is built around timing.  A Workshop deck like 5CStax isn't, or at least, shouldn't be.

I disagree that Workshop decks aren't built around timing.   Timing is essential to every archetype in Vintage.  Knowing when to play spells and when not to is, in my view, an essential skill of the Workshop player.  Playing around Drains, etc.

Perhaps the greatest example of this was Kevin Cron's SCG P9 Victory with 5c Stax in Feb 2005.    He held Balance and Will for something like 30+ turns, waiting and waiting, drawing out counter after counter, for the right moment to strike.   

But we need not go into ancient history for proof of the importance of timing.   Nick's example about Vamping for Welder at just the right moment proves my point.   Workshop decks are all about timing.  Knowing when to ramp a Stack and when not to .  Knowing when to play Tangle Wire.  When to Weld.   These are all timing questions.

One of the reasons I ran 2 Crop Rotations is that it is utterly incredible against non-blue decks.  You can find Shop immediately.   And if Crop Rotation is good enough to run as a singleton, then I reasoned it's good enough to run more of, provided there is room.   I explained this choice in more detail in the article.

 

but I am pretty certain that in this current metagame, if you aren't playing null rod in stax, you're pretty much doing it as wrong as you possibly can.

QFT

Why has no one bothered to address this?  I argued the same point earlier, 2 out of the 3 Stax decks to make top8 at the ICBM open ran Rod, Rod Fish dominated, yet this isn't being discussed?

It's because it's beyond the scope of this thread.   This is a thread about 5c Stax.   Everyone assumes, including myself, that 5c Stax is not optimal with Null Rod.   

I agree with JuggernautGo, however.   That's why I don't think that 5c Stax is optimal for this particular metagame.

[Harlequin]

I would definitely agree that 5cStax is a tough sell in the current metagame.  As Travis elegantly put it, When it comes to Timevault, you have to beat-em or join-em... It seems like 5cStax has a hard time doing either.

What camp you join really takes you down a different direction.  If you decide to run Null Rod, as Sean Ryan points out - you have to cut bomby stuff for more lock pieces (rods).  At this point you might as well look at more streamline options such as Mono-R Uba or something like that.

The other camp I think is a bit more Radical, but It is the road I took to Myriad.  I made it to top-4 split with a Ray Robillard inspired (ok really a ray-ripoff) "Staxless" Stax deck.  

Looking at his old lists, they did infact run Bazaar and Titan.  I felt the deck could easily use/abuse the power of crop rotation.  Staxless Stax is really more accurately described as Turbo-Strip/Turbo-Welder.  It really plans on getting that striplock down as quickly as possible.  It still runs the bombs that 5cstax runs: Balance, Trinisphere, Tinker, even Timewalk can be fundamentally game changing.  But it forgos the glacially slow yet powerful Stax lock peices.  It fills the space with quicker more agile cards like additional tutors, Top, Gorrilla Shaman, Ancient Grudge - and arguably most powerfully - Timevault + Voltaic Key.  It also runs the game breakers I was talking about before: Titan and Memory Jar.  It even affords you some space for curveballs like Master Transmutet and Duplicant.  

EDIT: Adding a Link to my list from myriad http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38041.0 (reply #15)

I wouldn't normally bring up totally different decks in a discussion about one deck - but you sorta opened it up when you said "This deck isn't optimal for the meta" so any thoughts on what a shop player should do when faced with that realization?


One final point to consider on the Include Titan or not debate is that sometimes tournament play demands a solid win condition over a soft one.  In the confines of a 50 min round where your opponent doesn't have to scoop to hard lock - killing someone with Barbarian ring consumes time and turns.  It can totally work, but it something you have to be aware of in your deck.  Back when Master Transmuter was first out, I built an Uba deck where the main plan for winning was either decking my opponent or killing with barb ring.  Now decking was an option because I was running jesters scepter and cephalid coliseum (target player effects + uba = hilarious).  My point isn't that deck was viable, it was that when you run a slow win condition you have to be aware of it.  And If you are someone who likes to take alot of time to plan out exactly what you are going to do next - you may lose more matches to the clock than to your opponent.

[Juggernaut GO]

Null rod can easily be fit into a 5c build.  Most players underestimate how good null rod is against a mirror match as well.  Null rod absolutely crushes any mono-red shop aggro version that runs sword of fire & ice.

If I were to play at gencon which wouldn't really happen, but hypothetical situation I would run this:

4 mishra's workshop
4 city of brass
3 gemstone mine
3 wasteland
1 tolarian academy
1 strip mine
1 bazaar of baghdad
1 barbarian ring

1 sol ring
1 mana vault
1 mana crypt
1 black lotus
5 mox

4 goblin welder
2 gorilla shaman
1 triskelion
1 sundering titan
1 karn silver golem
1 duplicant

1 balance
1 tinker
1 time walk
1 demonic tutor
1 ancestral recall
1 crop rotation
2 seal of cleansing (these 2 spots are meta choices)

3 smokestack
3 sphere of resistance
3 tangle wire
3 null rod
2 crucible of worlds
1 trinisphere

but yeah, it's more aggro centered then some other decks with the inclusion of karn, but as was pointed out earlier he can block inkwell and kill moxes.

The whole point of the deck is to prevent your opponent from doing anything relevant, this combo of lock pieces does exactly that while at the same time not screwing your own deck.

Example:
chalice for 1 will kill this deck as badly as your opponent if you chose to drop it.  However, null rod kills their mana and has the added benefit of shutting off the most popular 2 card combo in the history of magic right now.  There are also plenty of outs in this deck if someone drops chalice for 1 on the play against you as well.  While welder greatly compliments the deck, it isn't a required piece of the puzzle to win.

I've personally never been a fan of the topdeck tutors in stax, I almost never run vamp and definitely never run imperial seal.  The deck offers you the opportunity to solve any problem you might find yourself in, and has a large toolbox to play with, there just aren't the "silver bullet" cards that demand that you draw them or lose.

Another plus about the deck is that it's not dependent on tinker to win games.  I've never seen tinker as a card that I had to have in my hand in order to win, every time I drew it, it was always more of "oh, thats a nice surprise."  Games are won or lost based on how well you do to assemble the following listed by priority:
1 null rod
2 smokestack
3 tangle wire
4 sphere of resistance
4 trinisphere

I will tell the truth, I have recently come back to vintage again and actually look forward to start playing tournaments again.  The fact that everyone and their cousin plays tezz is also an added bonus.

[Sean Ryan]

I believe -- although I could be wrong -- that Stax players have made a simple observation: they have seen how Sundering Titan has hit the table -- often through Tinker -- won the game, reinforcing the early decision to include it.

Confirmation bias is quite strong and may be at work here.  Is it Johny to want a Tinker target that wins you the game?  Perhaps, but it gives you a bomb that can turn around an otherwise loesing position.  That's one of the issues with Stax, if your attempt at locking things up early is thwarted it's very hard to reassert yourself once your opponent establishes a board.  TinkerTitan gives you an out in these situaitons.

However, I see where you are coming from simply on the basis that without Tinker I would not run Titan for the reasons you listed, even in a deck like Uba Stax with multiple Bazaars.     

It's because it's beyond the scope of this thread.   This is a thread about 5c Stax.   Everyone assumes, including myself, that 5c Stax is not optimal with Null Rod.   

I agree with JuggernautGo, however.   That's why I don't think that 5c Stax is optimal for this particular metagame.

Fair enough.  You want to limit the discussion to your article that's fine, but it seems silly to me to discuss something that isn't relavant.  In fact, I would argue that Stax without Null Rod hasn't been an optimal choice this entire year.  Which then leads one to ask why you decied to play it, then write an article that did not seriously examine why it's not optimal and go over the alternatives.  Perhaps a topic for a future article. 

Feel free to use the quote at the bottom of my sig for your title

Null rod can easily be fit into a 5c build.  Most players underestimate how good null rod is against a mirror match as well.  Null rod absolutely crushes any mono-red shop aggro version that runs sword of fire & ice.

Apparently not everyone assumes you can't run Null Rod in 5c Stax.

I would love to have my cake and eat it too, but you run into problems casting your colored spells which are very dependant upon moxen with Rod on the board.  I would be hesitant to run Karn/trike in a list with Rod as well.

The other problem I have with the list you posted is the lack of redunacy in lock parts.  2 Crucible - really?  Without a draw engine I really don't want less than 18 lock components.  That would be easy enough to answer if not for the larger problem stated above.

I know your an experienced and successful Workshop player but have you had experience running Rod in 5c builds with success? 

BtW, what are you metagaming the Seals for? 

Sean

[Rome]

ive been messing around with a 5c stax build and i have 1 question based on these current builds that are listed with the unrestriction of enlightend tutor and crop rotation why are they not more than 1 ofs if not seen at all on most lists?

i do like the use of the 7/10 but also has me questioning why not more use of inkwell? with the use of City and gemstone there is enough blue sources. granted the 7/10 comming in and out off welder tends to be more demolishing but if its the kill factor isnt it a player looking at something that is hard to be rid of esp if you have a welder on board only leaving a few choices to be rid of inkwell.

[MirariKnight]

Because they shouldn't even have islands for Inkwell to walk through if you have Titan out, at which point shroud is irrelevant too.

[Rome]

Because they shouldn't even have islands for Inkwell to walk through if you have Titan out, at which point shroud is irrelevant too.

well not really shroud is still relevant based on the low cost spells that pop him to hand (granted both are a semi easy cost for stax at that point)

[XdeckX]

Apparently not everyone assumes you can't run Null Rod in 5c Stax.

I would love to have my cake and eat it too, but you run into problems casting your colored spells which are very dependant upon moxen with Rod on the board.  I would be hesitant to run Karn/trike in a list with Rod as well.

The other problem I have with the list you posted is the lack of redunacy in lock parts.  2 Crucible - really?  Without a draw engine I really don't want less than 18 lock components.  That would be easy enough to answer if not for the larger problem stated above.

I know your an experienced and successful Workshop player but have you had experience running Rod in 5c builds with success?  

QFT
Losing lockpieces to make room for Rod just seems bad.
I still believe Rod is better played in a monocolored or a 2-colored Stax list. Mostly due to the absense of expensive colored spells.

[Juggernaut GO]

I know your an experienced and successful Workshop player but have you had experience running Rod in 5c builds with success? 

I invented null rod in stax going back as far as 2005 and the monster attendance waterbury I won at the height of gift's dominance over the metagame.
But that doesn't really matter, I think you guys are looking at the card the wrong way.  You are not taking out lock pieces to add it to the deck, null rod IS a lock piece, and probably the best one in the deck.

I also have run more then 2 crucibles on fewer occasions then I can remember.  This card is largely dead against blue based control (to the extent that I board it out), and only truly effective against fish or the shop mirror.  I truly can't remember ever losing more then a single match against a workshop mirror, this isn't really exaggeration.  I may have given up 1 match against Ray with his staxless stax deck at a myriad tournament, I seem to remember losing to gorilla shaman + welder.

Besides, the added bonus of null rod is that if you're on the draw, you actually have  a chance to stay in the game against a deck like tezz that just splooges all over your face on its opening turn with 3 artifact mana and a draw spell or something.

As an example, what would a normal 5c stax deck do?  play a sphere of resistance? no thats worthless, but dropping a turn 1 null rod pretty much punishes them as hard as is possible in vintage on the draw.  You can go on from there at any point and just laugh at tezz while they do nothing.

[nono77]

Hi, I think the actual deck proposed by Stephen M it's right including all control, tutors, 5 colours not discussion:

- Tinker/Ancestral
- Balance
- Crop rotation
- Welder
- Tutors

Into my opinion I think the actual problem of the deck is the metagame and the side focus. I wrote an article into

http://sirmagicdesantsa.blogspot.com/

regards

[Twaun007]

My purpose with that statement was to provoke debate.  My last article on 5c Stax didn't really foster any discussion of the issues that I identified as central to Stax:

Lets dance.

1) How Many Colors Should be Run?

It depends if you're going for consistency or brokenness. Traditional 5c stax lists sacrifice consistency for the power of Tinker. While 2 colored and mono colored lists sacrifice brokenness for a redundancy of Lock components.

2) How many Spheres should be included, and which ones?

Mono colored Workshop list should abuse as many Spheres as possible. The 5 color Stax lists cannot take this route due to its dependency on multi-colored bombs that need to resolve. The real question is which Spheres does one run? Out here in Cleveland we cannot run Thorn of Amethyst due to the absurd amount of aggro, but on the East coast there never appears to be creature based decks. Must be nice...!

3) What is the role/value of Bazaar of Baghdad and how many should be included?

This question should revolve completely around whether or not you're running Dark Confidant or not. The role/value of Bazaar of Baghdad is to dig as much as possible to find lock components. Lets not forget that it has an amazing synergy with Cabal Pit, Barbarian Ring, and Crucible of Worlds.

4) What should the win conditions be? Sundering Titan? Barbarian Ring?

Your number one priority in Workshop Prison is stifling your opponents ability to interact in the game. After that is established it shouldn't matter what your win conditions are.

5) Does Time Vault have a place?

Yangtime and I have been testing the crap out of this one and we don't have enough sample games to come to a conclusion. I believe that Jerry didn't use the vault/key combo a single time during the ICBM open. If he didn't use it once then why is it in there? It is one hell of a threat if you have a Vault/Key component and cast a tutor with an active welder.

6) How Many Crop Rotations should be included, and how many Crucibles to support them?

If you are running the turbo find Strip Mine strategy I believe that you're going to have to increase the amount of Crucible of Worlds up to 4. The problem with quad lazer Crucible of World's is that they are complete garbage in multiples. Bazaar of Baghdad does help this situation since you can just toss them into your bin. I know you don't like Bazaar, but it is synergistic.

I am in the middle of writing a comprehensive primer on Workshop Prison strategies and BRstax that should be up in a week. I hope that it will lead to further discussion on the archetype.

-Twaun P. Pownertown

[pierce]

5) Does Time Vault have a place?

Yangtime and I have been testing the crap out of this one and we don't have enough sample games to come to a conclusion. I believe that Jerry didn't use the vault/key combo a single time during the ICBM open. If he didn't use it once then why is it in there? It is one hell of a threat if you have a Vault/Key component and cast a tutor with an active welder.

-Twaun P. Pownertown

thats not to say that he should cut it. despite never using it to win, I've seen him utilize time vault very well in stax mirrors, by randomly giving them more turns for their tangle wire counters to fade, as well as their own smokestax to gnaw away at their board.

in addition, yangtime should have won g2 in the finals vs me. He had opened on voltaic key, a few moxen, and a mox monkey. His turn two, he cast demonic tutor. I had commented "i guess he runs time vault" to the people standing behind me, while showing them my hand. This was basically me conceeding on the spot, after sideing my null rods out and not having a seal of cleansing handy. He overthought my action, gave me too much credit, and found something else with the tutor. Had he simply gone for it, we would have shuffled up for a third game.

[Sean Ryan]

I know your an experienced and successful Workshop player but have you had experience running Rod in 5c builds with success? 

I invented null rod in stax going back as far as 2005 and the monster attendance waterbury I won at the height of gift's dominance over the metagame.
But that doesn't really matter, I think you guys are looking at the card the wrong way.  You are not taking out lock pieces to add it to the deck, null rod IS a lock piece, and probably the best one in the deck.

I always thought Vroman "invented" Rod in Stax in 2005 at the SCG Chicago.  Is this incorrect?

I fully agree with you that Null Rod is THE lock component one should not be without, especially in this metagame.  However, I also think you need to maintain a threshhold of at least 18 components total guarantee you have consistent openings.   

I also have run more then 2 crucibles on fewer occasions then I can remember.  This card is largely dead against blue based control (to the extent that I board it out), and only truly effective against fish or the shop mirror.  I truly can't remember ever losing more then a single match against a workshop mirror, this isn't really exaggeration.  I may have given up 1 match against Ray with his staxless stax deck at a myriad tournament, I seem to remember losing to gorilla shaman + welder.

I strongly disagree with running less then 3 Crucibles in any deck with Smokestack.  Without a true draw engine it simply will not come up often enough.  Especially in 5c Stax, finding Strip to go with Crucible is a line of play that you want increase your chances, not minimize by running 2 Crucibles.  Even if you accept the premise that Crucible is horrible vs Drains (I do not) the recent shift toward Shops and Fish makes finding a Crucible essential to survival.   

Besides, the added bonus of null rod is that if you're on the draw, you actually have  a chance to stay in the game against a deck like tezz that just splooges all over your face on its opening turn with 3 artifact mana and a draw spell or something.

Absolutely.  Although I wouldn't say Spheres are useless - Twaun007 has it right:

2) How many Spheres should be included, and which ones?

Mono colored Workshop list should abuse as many Spheres as possible. The 5 color Stax lists cannot take this route due to its dependency on multi-colored bombs that need to resolve. The real question is which Spheres does one run? Out here in Cleveland we cannot run Thorn of Amethyst due to the absurd amount of aggro, but on the East coast there never appears to be creature based decks. Must be nice...!


I am in the middle of writing a comprehensive primer on Workshop Prison strategies and BRstax that should be up in a week. I hope that it will lead to further discussion on the archetype.

-Twaun P. Pownertown

Looking forward to it!


I think this recent innovation of BR Stax with a synergistic draw engine is the best Workshop development since Uba Stax.  I imagine it has a bad match vs Shop Aggro and Oath though - both excellent choices for Vintage Worlds IMHO.

Sean 

[Twaun007]

5) Does Time Vault have a place?

Yangtime and I have been testing the crap out of this one and we don't have enough sample games to come to a conclusion. I believe that Jerry didn't use the vault/key combo a single time during the ICBM open. If he didn't use it once then why is it in there? It is one hell of a threat if you have a Vault/Key component and cast a tutor with an active welder.

-Twaun P. Pownertown

thats not to say that he should cut it. despite never using it to win, I've seen him utilize time vault very well in stax mirrors, by randomly giving them more turns for their tangle wire counters to fade, as well as their own smokestax to gnaw away at their board.

in addition, yangtime should have won g2 in the finals vs me. He had opened on voltaic key, a few moxen, and a mox monkey. His turn two, he cast demonic tutor. I had commented "i guess he runs time vault" to the people standing behind me, while showing them my hand. This was basically me conceeding on the spot, after sideing my null rods out and not having a seal of cleansing handy. He overthought my action, gave me too much credit, and found something else with the tutor. Had he simply gone for it, we would have shuffled up for a third game.

We discussed his game two play the whole ride home. I believe that it is still eating him alive on the inside. I stated that we don't have enough sample games to come to a conclusion of whether Vault, Key, and Tutors are better than CotV and Null Rod. Both strategies are amazing in their own way. We just need to figure out which one is better of the two. I never had the intentions for Yangtime to remove Vault/Key from the deck. I Just wanted to hear others opinions about The Combo in Stax. I also believe that if the combo truly fits into Stax decks Wizards will have to do something about it. The Vault/Key strategy being squeezed into every deck would mirror the Gush/Bond Engine being put into everything.  

I think this recent innovation of BR Stax with a synergistic draw engine is the best Workshop development since Uba Stax.  I imagine it has a bad match vs Shop Aggro and Oath though - both excellent choices for Vintage Worlds IMHO.

On the Contrary. The BRstax list actually has a very good match against Oath. You have CotV in the main which can be set at 2 very easily. You also have the ability to Tangle Wire Lock them out and drop a Smokestack. If they happen to be running Tidespout Oath you're probably boned(just stay away from Dan Carp), but I haven seen that deck in awhile. Against Workshop Aggro you have Null Rod which stops their Sword of Fire and Ice along with Trike. You can also try to sneak in a CotV @ 1 before they drop a mox monkey or Welder. You have to realize that your draw engine out classes the Draw engines of Oath, Workshop Aggro, and Fish. so you'll have a bit more power in those matches.


EDIT: The problem I have with 5c Stax it the threat density. You sacrifice Lock components for tutors and other random stuff. I would rather just drop 3 lock components by turn 2 and say "Have at it Chief."
  

[voltron00x]

I'm pretty sure that saying Stax has a "very good match against Oath" is a stretch.  Sure, you have Chalice of the Void on 2 as a potential game-breaking play, but Oath has TS/Duress/Negate/FoW to interact with that plan, and after SB my list adds Oxidize and Annul.  Tangle Wire is only moderately effective against anyone playing Oath w/2 Hellkites - once the Oath is set up and active, it doesn't really do much.  Even the Hellkite / Akroma plan may be sufficient due to CoB / Mana Crypt damage.

While playing against Stax with Oath doesn't excite me, I wouldn't say I sweat the match-up, either.  I've had plenty of games where I just open on something broken and win before Stax can do anything.

[Twaun007]

I am just trying to state the fact that Oath vs Stax is in no way as lopsided as Landstill vs Dredge.

[Suicideking]

I played jerry yang in a best of 5 match, oath vs. BR stax and did fine.  The one game I lost was Jerry beating me with just insane play skill, and it wasnt easy for him.

That said as an oath pilot I feel happy facing stax because its a match up I win most of the time, but its certainly no gimme.  If the shop player can go turn one sphere, turn two smoke stack it becomes really difficult. 

When I tested against TK playing shops he was pretty even with me preboard.  Postboard it gets a lot more in oaths favor unless they can run 3 jester caps and ensnaring bridges or something crazy.

[Prospero]

@Steve,

I appreciate your efforts towards ameliorating the situation.  My responses to your points:

Over time, success at using Sundering Titan to finish games has become confused with *winning* the games.  It's a simple psychological error.   The Sundering Titan is salient.   It's like when an opponent has drawn a billion cards, plays Yawgmoth's Will and casts Tendrils.   The Tendrils technically won the game, but it could have been almost anything.   The Sundering Titan is merely the thing that is most obvious.   

But what is missed in this analysis is the opportunity cost of Titan.   While Titan is a great finisher, that doesn't mean it's optimal.  The strong association in Stax player's minds with Titan and winning continues to reinforce the belief that Titan is optimal.   It's a simple trick of the mind.

That's why I called Titan, in retort to Nick, an "advanced player's error."   Because it is advanced Stax players -- those who have the most experience with Stax -- who are most likely to suffer this false association. 

In theory Titan could be anything once the hard lock has been established.  It could be Karn, Trike, or any other creature.  I've won games off Shaman and Welder beating for 20.  Once the hard lock has been established nothing else matters.

But Titan isn't just a guy - it's his role as some combination of Wastelands and Strip Mine on a beater that often seals the deal.  A blue player, who has suffered through all your hate for his curve, land and spells, who has exhausted himself on counter-magic is often put away by Titan because he destroys the last few lands he has.

I was in a positive game state when I drew Vampiric Tutor in the finals of the Dan Herd event against Paul, but it was Tinkering for Titan which completely removed any chance he had in the game.  Paul's board state of Island, Island, Sea, Confidant was being chewed away by a Smokestack on 1, but his card advantage could in theory have gotten him out of it.  Titan blew up Sea and an Island, making the Stack that much more devastating, and putting the game away.  It could have been something else.  Triskelion would have been acceptable there, as it would have killed his Bob.  But the Titan closed the door - and not just because he's a big dumb man.

I think that if you were to consider it further you'd see that this is part of the reason why most Stax decks don't run cards like Inkwell Leviathan, or never considered anything other than Titan.  The Titan doesn't just serve as a big man to win the game (if that was the case I'm sure I could find a big man with some form of evasion that would beat better than Titan.)  It's Titan's effect on the board state - blowing up lands that you've been hating all game, that matters.

I could provide a million examples of Titan being awesome.  Eric Markowicz has come to hate my Titan.  But individual examples don't matter, what you're really looking for is a broad statistical analysis of the card and its interaction in the games.  I can't provide that, I can just say that there have been myriad times when I've dropped Titan and knocked an opponent out because it was Titan, and not something else.

I disagree that Workshop decks aren't built around timing.   Timing is essential to every archetype in Vintage.  Knowing when to play spells and when not to is, in my view, an essential skill of the Workshop player.  Playing around Drains, etc.

I should have differentiated between timing and order.

Order, to me, is not just the order in which you play your spells, but the order in which you seek to attain various game states.  It's priority.  It's knowing which spells in hand are more important against given decks and how your most likely path to victory is achieved by casting cards in the proper order.

Timing , to me, is defined more like waiting.  If I'm playing Drains and I draw a lethal Yawgmoth's Will, I don't wantonly cast it without knowing that I have adequate counter backup.  I need to protect it, ensure that I can resolve it.  Then I'll cast it.  In this instance, playing Drains, I'd have counter-magic of my own to defend myself against the opponents Vault/Key combo, or otherwise devastating spells.  I also have a toolbox in my deck.  So, for example, if my opponent resolve Tinker, I can always find Hurkyl's Recall to make his Tinker irrelevant.

Stax does not have these things, and given the brokenness of Vault/Key, must be exceptionally pro-active.  I can't afford to wait with spells when my opponent can just topdeck into infinite turns or an otherwise lethal Yawgmoth's Will.

but I am pretty certain that in this current metagame, if you aren't playing null rod in stax, you're pretty much doing it as wrong as you possibly can.

@Travis,

I've played Null Rod in the board before and I have at least one teammate who swears by it.  I don't think it's necessary because I think that you can adequately stop so much that they're unable to execute their game plan.  Not to mention that it's not exactly a panacea - they can always flick it off a Hurkyl's, which they will tutor for against us. 

I want to deny them as much of a board as humanly possible.  If they don't have a board they won't be able to combo against me.

I am just trying to state the fact that Oath vs Stax is in no way as lopsided as Landstill vs Dredge.

It isn't as awful as people make it seem, but let people think what they will.  If you give up a slot or two in your sideboard you can usually beat them pretty effectively. 

[miss_bun]

Has anyone considered that md pithing needle might be better than null rod in a meta with so much tezz and ichorid?

Just a random musing, I haven't really tried it.  But the more I think about it, the more I like it.

That having been said, not maindecking null rod in stax makes me nervous.  That having been said, the vast majority of my stax experience is uba, even since I fell in love with it.

Smenny I see your points and I think that you might even be right that it is correct not to run bazaar and titan, but if they are suboptimal, they are only very, very slightly so.  Its a big mistake to evaluate them independently, especially with how many tutor effects 5c has.

I think that a new stax (neither uba nor 5c) might be more optimal in this meta tho, such as one of the spiff lists with confidants.

I've also always been curious why stax tends not to run key./vault, even though people suggest it all the time and you occasionally see a list with em.  It seems like a deck that can run 78 tutors would be the best kind to run it.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Has anyone considered that md pithing needle might be better than null rod in a meta with so much tezz and ichorid?

Just a random musing, I haven't really tried it.  But the more I think about it, the more I like it.

I've tried it (however, in Fish rather than Stax).  I like it because it allows you to use your own activated abilities.  It runs into the same problem as Null Rod, though -- they bounce it or play Tinker and win anyway.  Null Rod has the additional drawback in 5c Stax of shutting down several on-color mana sources, the five Moxes.

[miss_bun]

Well yeah it kills your mana, obv, but you can pay around it.  But I can see your point, I spose.

The "they can just bounce it" argument strikes me as silly, tho.  I mean, even considering the fact that they can bounce it (it isn't like they won't figure out the one possible response, after all,) it still slows them down a card and a few mana, maybe enough to slow them down a turn.  It can also shut off fetches, tezz, lalala, you know the drill.

And it def does way more against ichorid than rod does.  And don't say ichorid is easily hated as long as you're prepared for it, please, because recent field reports show that most people haven't been prepared for it at all, and stax has bad game against ich as it is. 

[Stormanimagus]

I wonder why no one is considering going back to a more aggro-stax approach with Magus Of the Moon. I realize spheres kinda suck without Gush being around any more, but there are other lock-pieces that are far more relevant that that deck could run (Tangle Wire for one). Tangle Wire + Null Rod seem to cover a lot of the bases for attack right now. The deck would have to have a strong win condition and IF it ran Null Rod and Chalice that win condition could probably not be Trike nor could it support Dark Confidant. To me, right now, there is a lot of incentive to play a Shops deck that abuses both Null Rod AND Chalice of The Void and Mono-Red Magus shop aggro could do that. I suppose the deck could turn in to a turbo lock deck with Crop Rotation as well and splash green for that. Hmmmmmmmm. . . *brainstorming*.

[Smmenen]

Kinda oldish, but still interesting, tournament report from the ICBM open, playing 5c Stax.    Now free    Enjoy

- Steve

[Tha Gunslinga]

Steve, how would you build 5C Stax today?

[Smmenen]

Good lord I'm not sure.   There are a bunch of questions I have that I don't know the answer to.   

[Tha Gunslinga]

Good lord I'm not sure.   There are a bunch of questions I have that I don't know the answer to.   

Such as?

Here's what I'm currently playing:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
4 Goblin Welder
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
3 Crucible of Worlds
1 Triskelion
1 Sundering Titan
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Tinker
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Balance
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Vault
3 City of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Choke
2 Powder Keg
1 Karn, Silver Golem

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ray of Revelation
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Razormane Masticore
3 Relic of Progenitus

It's alright, but I'm sure it could stand a tuneup.

[Smmenen]

Why aren't you playing Oath right now    Oath is getting red hot.

Questions i have include:

* Should the lists include cards like Barbarian Ring and/or Cabal Pit?
* What about Vamp/Imperial Seal?
* Sundering Titan?  Is it's deadweight value in opening hand outweighed by its late game and tinker target value?
* How many Crucibles?  3 or 4?
And so on...