[Premium Article] Pat Chapin Discusses Vintage, The Deck, and Proxies

[Killane]

What proxies do is they give a player a taste of the good life, which while not directly increasing format-ownership does make a player more likely to care about the format and his or her success in it; by increasing incentives to buy into the format, meanwhile, he can have greater incentive to re-invest his winnings into the format by acquiring more power, since that increases his long-run earnings, and in turn increases his incentive to stay in.

I've read this sentence 4 times and still don't quite understand what you're trying to say.

After re-reading your post a few times, I think you're trying to advocate no proxies, but increase the payout for highest non-powered deck.  If I'm wrong, you can ignore the rest of this.

I believe he is advocating proxy tournaments with two payout structures: one for the entire tournament and one for the people without any proxies.  So, you can go with a proxied deck and win,  and then have an incentive to spend those winnings on the real cards so eventually when you place high without any proxies you have a shot at winning even more.  Winning the tournament for a prize with proxies is 'a taste of the good life.'  The incentive for 'increase[d] long-run earnings ' is that second level of prize pay-out.  

Personally, I think this is a fantastic plan. I love Vintage and I don't see myself ever quitting magic as long as I can play good decks in Vintage - but I currently own no power, and unless I win it or win the money to spend on it at the self-same tournament, I'll never be able to justify the expense to certain other people in my life. Creating a two-teir prize structure would enable me to do exactly that - and once I get my hands on Power you can bet that no one will get them out of those hands until they acquire them though various provisions in my last will and testament.

[scifiantihero]

It got me thinking a bit, at least.  Mostly about the potential problems, though.

But I'll ramble for a bit:

What if there were the two prize pay outs, for the top eight of the tournament, and let's say the top four of the non-proxy decks in the tournament?  Um, 50 people paying 25 dollars each would be 1,250.  So the top 8 could get 250, 200, 100, 100, 50, 50, 50, 50, then the top 4 non-proxy could get 150, 100, 75, 75.  I made those numbers up, but they fit for now.  Call it a few pieces of power, a few drains and some dual lands.

So, what if you could only win one prize, and what if the prizes got shifted down in the case of say, the third place player over all being the highest ranked non-proxy deck?  The prizes could be adjusted however works best, but there would be cases where maybe ninth palce would get a prize, or the sixth ranked non-proxy deck would get a prize.  Maybe all the prizes would get shifted into the non-proxy payout scheme, so that once you have players with non-proxy decks placing regularly, the other people playing non-proxy decks are still being rewarded. 

Actually, I am kind of liking this idea.  It has it's limitations, as it works best as slightly bigger tournaments.  it spreads the wealth around a little which is nice, but if the super high cards are at stake--lotus--  there might not be much more than dual lands after 4th (but doesn't this become an issue for organizers in one way or another anyway?)  It might make prize splitting and the associated gray areas that many have discussed an even murkier source of black mana.

it really is just an extension of the 'prize to top non-proxy deck' line that many tournaments seem to have, but it would seem to--if enacted-- demonstrate a desire for American card stores and players to get and keep more cards in the community.

: )

[AmbivalentDuck]

I know I'm going to get into trouble over this one, but here goes:  I run weekly vintage/legacy tournaments (alternating weeks) at my local shop.  We've used infi proxy as a recruiting tool, and frankly 40+ proxy decks are the norm. 

What actually gets butts into seats?
- Letting people sit down with a deck that does something crazy/fun/cool. 

What has actually attracted the most people who never thought they'd ever played vintage?
-Handing them my pre-built Iona Oath, Ichorid, or Goblins decks with a 30 second explanation and just having them play.

What prizes entice new players to the format?
-T2 staples and packs.  People will happily bet a pack of zendikar that their (often terrible) deck is the most-brokenest. 

What do new recruits actually sound like?
-"I have every zombie lord! ZMG!!!," "Pfft, I've got 4 of every planeswalker!!!"  After you kick their ass (quickly), hand them one of your pre-built (competitive) decks and say, "This thing is a lot of fun, why don't you try it?"

Cube drafting also introduces t2 players to power in a saner context where moxen aren't actually much better than signets.  This also lets people think hard about the relative power (in a vacuum) of Time Walk and Baneslayer Angel.

[scifiantihero]

That's interesting, Duck, and makes a lot of sense when you have that big standard crowd!

My experience is backwards in pretty much every way.  I started playing at a very small store that ran only non-proxy vintage tournaments (12-24 people back then, we hardly get 8 now).   Players there matured as vintage players some, then had to be convinced to start playing standard.  I imagine your model might get some of those standard players back into the vintage.

Who knows.

I'd probably rather have your store to play at, right now, though!

; )

[arctic79]

I think somethings should be looked at with these arguements about proxy vs. non-proxy. 
Who supports  proxies?  The Have Nots.  (generally)
Who doesn't support proxies?  The Haves.  (generally)
Who benefits from proxies?  TO's, new players, the have nots, and some of the Haves.
Who doesn't benefit from proxies?  Wizards and some of the Haves.

So if there was a survey conducted on how many players had power and how many don't, it should indicate where the majority lies and how much of an impact a non-proxy environment could have in the competitive field of vintage.  (assuming that P9 are the majority of proxied cards)

I do think that proxies are okay, but should be limited to certain cards such as the P9, bazaars, workshops.  Cards like Platty, Yawg, Drain, etc... should be the real deal as they really aren't hard to come by and easier to save for. 
For those of you who do not have major financial commitments should understand that those of us that do have budgets to maintain and simple household economics would dictate that if I saved $400 for 1 mox sapphire I could get 4 drains instead thus more bang for my buck and a more justifable expenditure.  (just some made up prices) And adding more commitment to Vintage.  Also you try explaining to your wife that you dropped hundreds of dollars on one little piece of cardboard.

These are just my opinions and nothing more.

[acidfreak]

The difference between powered and non-powered decks is just too large. Basically your only option besides spending an in my opinion unjustifiable amount of money on power cards is to play 4 null rods/leylines.deck, well knowing that you are just not as competetitive as the powered decks.

Now i have done some investments and trades specifically for type 1. I own gifts, welders, metalworkers, fow's, drains, smokestacks, ichorids, the whole tutor chain etc and can build almost all top tier decks by proxying up only the power9+bazaar+shop. Those cards did cost me quite alot of money and are useless outside of type1/legacy. Not to mention the costs of a full set fetch and dual lands.

The point is that if i want to play competitively i have to go to proxy tournaments, doesn't need to be alot of proxies but enough to be able to proxy a few critical pieces without which the deck wouldn't work. If i want to go to a noproxy tournament i have no choice but to play null rod+weenies or some other wannebe deck which lets face it is just not as good or fun to play as a real deck, even though there is some kind of allure to beating a powered player with it, i will stand no real chance at going top 8 and actually winning a power piece.

Also it seems that many people who are anti-proxy had the opportunity to buy it when it was still relatively cheap.

In the end second-hand prices are none of wizards concern. The health of the game is. Reprinting and giving power as prices in sanctioned type 1 with a restricted allowed amount of proxies is imo a logical solution. That way the reprints will stay rare, prices will stay high but new players will have a way to aqcuire it.

The only other solution is to create a format with the P9 banned but the rest of the restricted cards legal as one-of. This might also be a good solution to the stagnation of the metagame.

[CorwinB]

Also it seems that many people who are anti-proxy had the opportunity to buy it when it was still relatively cheap.

I can't speak for others, but I jumped back into the game after a 10 years break, and I went for full Power over the course of several months, one or two pieces at a time. I lack a lot of the less prestigious cards (no Workshops, no Bazaars, even no Null Rods yet). I also think that proxies, while a sound idea initially, feed a negative loop that ends with people losing interest in the format.

In the end second-hand prices are none of wizards concern. The health of the game is. Reprinting and giving power as prices in sanctioned type 1 with a restricted allowed amount of proxies is imo a logical solution. That way the reprints will stay rare, prices will stay high but new players will have a way to aqcuire it.

But the health of the game is partially due to second-hand prices, as second-hand dealers have a lot of financial power. For WotC, respecting their word with regard to the "no reprint" list is absolutely crucial, because breaking it would mean an absolutely huge loss of confidence for second hand dealers, and mean a lot as far as current and future sets are concerned.

The only other solution is to create a format with the P9 banned but the rest of the restricted cards legal as one-of. This might also be a good solution to the stagnation of the metagame.

That sounds a lot like Legacy.

What I think would be a good step would be to support non-proxied Vintage tournaments, and have Power pieces or other high-end Vintage stuff as rewards for Legacy (and perhaps Extended) tournaments. People winning Power in Legacy tournaments could very well make the transition to Vintage, and this would bring more attention to the format as a whole.

[Bruised]

How about the deck Chapin posted? It looks... 'weird'.
Does anynbody have some experience with it?

Chapin and a bunch of Pros swear by The Deck. I'm not kidding!

I have seen it maybe once in a top 8 somewhere some time ago. Where are all those top players who play this deck and why are they not top 8-ing? Not meant to be irritating, just genuinely curious...

Robrecht.

Graves took it to back to back top 8's albeit in 30 man pools and won one of them, 11/21/09-11/22/09 by morphling's count.  It would be interesting to see Stephen's thoughts on the deck as they met in the finals... or did you guys split? 

[i_set_fire]

I personally own the P9, but do not play with the actual cards.  They are too valuable to leave in my car while I am at work all day or to bring to someone's house with a notoriously misbehaved pooch.  Therefore, I have proxies of the cards that I use. 
I recently returned to Magic, but when I stopped playing in 1995 all the tourneys were ran that proxies were allowed, but you had to actually own the card that you are proxying (when the proxy entered play you had to pull out the real card and lay that down or at least show it).  This was before the time of sleeves so people wanted to protect the condition of valuable cards when shuffling.  When I returned to playing magic, I was disappointed that anyone can write on a few land cards and have a set of P9.  I agree with the article that a proxy just isn't as exciting as seeing the real card, whether as a spectator or a player.  Unfortunately, real P9 are too expensive for everyone to afford if they have to buy them now.  I think a 10 card proxy limit is a good idea.  If a person can proxy the P9 but have to buy their drains, then they will be more invested in the format and more likely to return to tourneys, if for no other reason than to use the cards they just spent a bunch of money on.

[Killane]

I personally own the P9, but do not play with the actual cards.  They are too valuable to leave in my car while I am at work all day or to bring to someone's house with a notoriously misbehaved pooch.  Therefore, I have proxies of the cards that I use. 
I recently returned to Magic, but when I stopped playing in 1995 all the tourneys were ran that proxies were allowed, but you had to actually own the card that you are proxying (when the proxy entered play you had to pull out the real card and lay that down or at least show it).  This was before the time of sleeves so people wanted to protect the condition of valuable cards when shuffling.  When I returned to playing magic, I was disappointed that anyone can write on a few land cards and have a set of P9.  I agree with the article that a proxy just isn't as exciting as seeing the real card, whether as a spectator or a player.  Unfortunately, real P9 are too expensive for everyone to afford if they have to buy them now.  I think a 10 card proxy limit is a good idea.  If a person can proxy the P9 but have to buy their drains, then they will be more invested in the format and more likely to return to tourneys, if for no other reason than to use the cards they just spent a bunch of money on.

This seems the most fair to me- I play in a 10 proxy meta and I am actively persuing Power anyways and won't sell it if I get my hands on some- the reason being that Power fits in almost any list, whereas Drains for example do not- so while the intial investment is higher, the EV is better in the long run as I can proxy Drains, Shops, Bazzars or whatever once I own the P9 and be able to come in under the 10 proxy limit- whereas if I just buy a set of Drains and then decide I want to run Stax, I have to go spend money again.

While this alone is not a great arguement for doing it this way (as a playset of Drains is cheeper than a single mox for example) I also see the P9 hold value significantly better off straight collectability should the game ever start to die off.

Speaking of Value, isn't there some way that tournament entry fees could be structure such that proxies are allowed by the competitive Vintage player woudl see a positive dollar return from buying power?

This is what I'm thinking:

in my area, a dedicated Vintage player can find 1-2 events per month to go to without excessive amounts fo travel. Let's assume that anyone willing to spend $5K+ on the format is willing to travel a bit to find the tournaments, and maybe ends up attending 15-20 per year.

Current Prices for P9 (unlimited) on SCG as of today- mint condition:

Lotus $1,250
Ancestral $550
Walk $500
Sapphire $550
Jet $500
Emerald $450
Ruby $450
Pearl $450
Twister $250

Total $4,950

most big Vintage tournaments cost $30-$40 for entry. I ahve yet to attend one that has less than 60% of attendees running something approaching the proxy limit (assuming a limit of 10-15 proxies, as i aslo have never attended a 25 or unlimited proxy event). Let's say average attendance is about 30 people (on the low side) and 60% of them (18) are running the 10 proxy limit.

Total entry fees for $30 at 30 people is $900.

Structure the entry fees like this:

$15.00 base entry fee
$10.00 proxy fee for running ANY proxies
$0.50 per proxy (including the 1st).

Thus, the entry for players running no proxies is $15.00 and the entry for players running 10 proxies is $40. the entry for players running 1 proxy is $25.50. The TO should still make the same amount of money by statistics.

At 15 tournaments per year, the cost to run 1 proxy would then be $157.50, meaning investing in that Lotus (presumably the last thing you'd buy as it saves you the least money by percentage) earns you 12.6% interest per year, plus capital gains on the value of the lotus. This significantly beats the expected returns of investing in Stocks, and is not taxable.

At 15 tournaments per year, the cost to run 10 proxies is $225.00 if you buy the full power 9 for $4,950, you still get a 4.54% return on investment, non taxable, plus capital gains. this is better than you can earn on Bonds and GIC's, plus you get potential value out of playing them.

Setting things up this way gives an actualy monetary incentive to buy/win, keep, and use Power 9, increasing attachement to the format, while also allowing newer players to enter without having to spend $4950 on 9 cards.

If things were run this way, I'd be saving up for power instead of just looking to win it/get it as an x-mas present.

[Smmenen]

Current Prices for P9 (unlimited) on SCG as of today- mint condition:

Lotus $1,250
Ancestral $550
Walk $500
Sapphire $550
Jet $500
Emerald $450
Ruby $450
Pearl $450
Twister $250

All DUE respect to SCG, that is not the price of power that anyone should expect.   First of all, very, very few power pieces should be mint.   Secondly, ebay prices are probably 60-70% of those prices.   

[Killane]

Current Prices for P9 (unlimited) on SCG as of today- mint condition:

Lotus $1,250
Ancestral $550
Walk $500
Sapphire $550
Jet $500
Emerald $450
Ruby $450
Pearl $450
Twister $250

All DUE respect to SCG, that is not the price of power that anyone should expect.   First of all, very, very few power pieces should be mint.   Secondly, ebay prices are probably 60-70% of those prices.   

Agreed- I was simply using the highest market value to illustrate that the concept has merit even if people are paying full price for power from a dealer instead of buying privately/ebay.

If you use 70% of the values I posted, the Return on Investment for a full set of power hits an impressive 6.49% (again, without considering capital gains), and is comparable to a moderately conservative investment strategy on the stock market

[AmbivalentDuck]

Since you hinge on the notion of power as investment, I suggest that you include travel costs.  To reach 2 major events per month, you either live in one of few areas supporting them or spend a terrific amount on transit.

[Killane]

true, but the travel costs are the same under the current system and under my proposed system, so they're not really relevant to my analysis.

[AmbivalentDuck]

My point is that power is never an investment.  Even if you're Vroman and win a mox every time you go to a tourney, vintage drains your money relative to flipping burgers.  Making it even more expensive is unlikely to aid in retention.

[BruiZar]

My point is that power is never an investment.  Even if you're Vroman and win a mox every time you go to a tourney, vintage drains your money relative to flipping burgers.  Making it even more expensive is unlikely to aid in retention.

People are quick to call things an investment. If you add the time and money spent on vintage and assume minimum wage, I'm sure your collection is not worth the amount of time and money you've spent on it. This however, doesn't matter, because vintage magic is the most awesome game there is.

[Scyther]

My point is that power is never an investment.  Even if you're Vroman and win a mox every time you go to a tourney, vintage drains your money relative to flipping burgers.  Making it even more expensive is unlikely to aid in retention.

People are quick to call things an investment. If you add the time and money spent on vintage and assume minimum wage, I'm sure your collection is not worth the amount of time and money you've spent on it. This however, doesn't matter, because vintage magic is the most awesome game there is.

nice! =D

true words...

[scifiantihero]

I paid 150 for my ruby when I was 15, my dad got my lotus for 300 for my 18th birthday.  I could certainly sell them for more than that now.  I don't think anyone is arguing that we can send our kids to college if we buy lots of power now, but I think vintage cards hold their as well as, and perhaps more than the majority of the play sets of cards required to build multiple decks in, say, type-2.   

It's probably something people DO need attention drawn to, but maybe not people on these boards so much.  I know my local store went from having to convince type one players to try type 2, to having no one come to type 1, and two dozen plus show up for FNM.   It makes me a sad panda.

[Killane]

please explain how, in the context of people who are already playing, my proposal does not make power a better investment than it currently is?

[scifiantihero]

In case I was being vague, and you were directing that at me, Killane:

I liked your proposal!

[Zombie Shakespeare]

Killane's proposal is interesting. I like the spirit of the proposal but I think it could cause issues for at least some of the player base using proxies and the TOs under this type of system.

While I'm sure many high level players that rely on proxies wouldn't mind the additional costs involved, the average player may shy away from having to spend an extra $15.00 just to play their ideal deck of choice with 10 proxies. Additionally the system puts a little additional work on the shoulders of the TO as they have to visually confirm that each player is paying the proper amount based on the number of proxies they are running.

[urweak]

Structure the entry fees like this:

$15.00 base entry fee
$10.00 proxy fee for running ANY proxies
$0.50 per proxy (including the 1st).

Thus, the entry for players running no proxies is $15.00 and the entry for players running 10 proxies is $40. the entry for players running 1 proxy is $25.50. The TO should still make the same amount of money by statistics.

At 15 tournaments per year, the cost to run 1 proxy would then be $157.50, meaning investing in that Lotus (presumably the last thing you'd buy as it saves you the least money by percentage) earns you 12.6% interest per year, plus capital gains on the value of the lotus. This significantly beats the expected returns of investing in Stocks, and is not taxable.

At 15 tournaments per year, the cost to run 10 proxies is $225.00 if you buy the full power 9 for $4,950, you still get a 4.54% return on investment, non taxable, plus capital gains. this is better than you can earn on Bonds and GIC's, plus you get potential value out of playing them.

Setting things up this way gives an actualy monetary incentive to buy/win, keep, and use Power 9, increasing attachement to the format, while also allowing newer players to enter without having to spend $4950 on 9 cards.

If things were run this way, I'd be saving up for power instead of just looking to win it/get it as an x-mas present.

I sure as shit wouldn't be coming to your events. There is no way in hell I am spending $40 for an entry fee unless the prize support is flat out nuts, or it gave me a 2.5x greater chance of winning. The deck I am playing right now has about 8 cards I have no interest in ever buying (5x moxen, Lotus, A call, and Walk) and then a few others that I have just been waiting for the price to come down/for me to snag them for a deal (2x Goyfs, 1-3 random Fetch lands that rotated out of Extended).

By structuring your entry fee like that, you would push players like me away. The fees shouldn't be set up to punish people who are just getting into the format. The way the fees are set up (everyone pays X) benefits all the players. The people that have power, and arguably can build better decks, win because they get to play against people that also have competitive decks. The people without power, and arguably cant build as good of decks with the limited card pool, win out to because they get to compete with other players on an equal field giving themselves a shot at winning the event.

Your events would probably look something like this. The field would consist of few powered players (non-proxy) a very low number of proxied players, and the rest being random decks that try to imitate the various top tier decks, but doing so on a limited card pool (example: Underground River over Underground Sea). So the people with the money cards would make the top 8. After awhile the people trying to get into the format will just go back to playing FNM for 5-10 bucks a pop.


Basically it comes down to this. As a consumer, I am going to want the most for my money. If one place charges me $20 to play magic and another charges me $40 for similar prizes I think you can figure out where I am taking my money.

[Killane]

Structure the entry fees like this:

$15.00 base entry fee
$10.00 proxy fee for running ANY proxies
$0.50 per proxy (including the 1st).

Thus, the entry for players running no proxies is $15.00 and the entry for players running 10 proxies is $40. the entry for players running 1 proxy is $25.50. The TO should still make the same amount of money by statistics.

At 15 tournaments per year, the cost to run 1 proxy would then be $157.50, meaning investing in that Lotus (presumably the last thing you'd buy as it saves you the least money by percentage) earns you 12.6% interest per year, plus capital gains on the value of the lotus. This significantly beats the expected returns of investing in Stocks, and is not taxable.

At 15 tournaments per year, the cost to run 10 proxies is $225.00 if you buy the full power 9 for $4,950, you still get a 4.54% return on investment, non taxable, plus capital gains. this is better than you can earn on Bonds and GIC's, plus you get potential value out of playing them.

Setting things up this way gives an actualy monetary incentive to buy/win, keep, and use Power 9, increasing attachement to the format, while also allowing newer players to enter without having to spend $4950 on 9 cards.

If things were run this way, I'd be saving up for power instead of just looking to win it/get it as an x-mas present.

I sure as shit wouldn't be coming to your events. There is no way in hell I am spending $40 for an entry fee unless the prize support is flat out nuts, or it gave me a 2.5x greater chance of winning. The deck I am playing right now has about 8 cards I have no interest in ever buying (5x moxen, Lotus, A call, and Walk) and then a few others that I have just been waiting for the price to come down/for me to snag them for a deal (2x Goyfs, 1-3 random Fetch lands that rotated out of Extended).

By structuring your entry fee like that, you would push players like me away. The fees shouldn't be set up to punish people who are just getting into the format. The way the fees are set up (everyone pays X) benefits all the players. The people that have power, and arguably can build better decks, win because they get to play against people that also have competitive decks. The people without power, and arguably cant build as good of decks with the limited card pool, win out to because they get to compete with other players on an equal field giving themselves a shot at winning the event.

Your events would probably look something like this. The field would consist of few powered players (non-proxy) a very low number of proxied players, and the rest being random decks that try to imitate the various top tier decks, but doing so on a limited card pool (example: Underground River over Underground Sea). So the people with the money cards would make the top 8. After awhile the people trying to get into the format will just go back to playing FNM for 5-10 bucks a pop.


Basically it comes down to this. As a consumer, I am going to want the most for my money. If one place charges me $20 to play magic and another charges me $40 for similar prizes I think you can figure out where I am taking my money.

Agreed. My proposal would only work if fees like this were adapted on a broad scale. Most of the tournaments in my area that are worth going to have $35-$40 entry fees already.

FYI - I am writing this from the perspective of a non-powered player. The most expensive cards I own are 4 dual lands (2 Seas and 2 Trops) and 4 Force of Will. I think that something like this woudl be good for the health of the format long-term - an incentive to de-proxy but the ability to proxy if desired.

If I'm goping to a tournament offerign Power for a prize, you can bet that I will pay the $15 for proxies in additon to the entry fee if that allows me to play a Teir 1 deck and have a good chance to winning.

@ all those offering criticism of the idea of Power as and Investment, you have to take it in context. If I am a regular Joe playign standard, or not playing magic at all, is Power a good investment? No. But, if I am going to be playing Vintage anyway, then within the context of myself as a Vintage player, I can view power as an investent, and given the proposed fee struture above, it woudl be a fairly good one.

[AmbivalentDuck]

But, if I am going to be playing Vintage anyway, then within the context of myself as a Vintage player, I can view power as an investent, and given the proposed fee struture above, it woudl be a fairly good one.

I've played vintage since Apocalypse.  That's 8 years now.  I bought my dual lands at $8 a piece (including some minty trops and volcanics).  I remember $20 Drains and I curse not having bought Bazaars at $20 a piece since I knew they were going to kick ass with dragon, but I just didn't have the money at the time.

I have NEVER felt the urge to own power and probably never will.  I keep coming back to the format because it's fun, not because shiny Asian foils and beta power compel me to.  If I can't play a fun, competitive deck on a budget I'll leave the format.  And that's probably the only thing capable of compelling me to do so.

[Killane]

But, if I am going to be playing Vintage anyway, then within the context of myself as a Vintage player, I can view power as an investent, and given the proposed fee struture above, it woudl be a fairly good one.

I've played vintage since Apocalypse.  That's 8 years now.  I bought my dual lands at $8 a piece (including some minty trops and volcanics).  I remember $20 Drains and I curse not having bought Bazaars at $20 a piece since I knew they were going to kick ass with dragon, but I just didn't have the money at the time.

I have NEVER felt the urge to own power and probably never will.  I keep coming back to the format because it's fun, not because shiny Asian foils and beta power compel me to.  If I can't play a fun, competitive deck on a budget I'll leave the format.  And that's probably the only thing capable of compelling me to do so.

What is the average entry fee of a tournament you attend?

[AmbivalentDuck]

In St. Louis, Vroman usually set $5 entry fees.  The largest I've ever paid is $25.  Here, we run weekly tournaments for one pack of Zendikar.

[Killane]

In St. Louis, Vroman usually set $5 entry fees.  The largest I've ever paid is $25.  Here, we run weekly tournaments for one pack of Zendikar.

I see. Perhaps I shoudl ahve been more clear- in fact yes i definitely should have been more clear - I am only referring to larger tournaments, the kind that tend to happen once a month per store around here, with $1K cash pools/Power prizes for the top 8. They tend to cost $35-$40

I agree that $40/wk is absurd and unsustainable. I was referring to the kind of tournament one might attemtp to attend 1-2 time sper month, thus 15 times per year or so

[LordHomerCat]

In St. Louis, Vroman usually set $5 entry fees.  The largest I've ever paid is $25.  Here, we run weekly tournaments for one pack of Zendikar.

I see. Perhaps I shoudl ahve been more clear- in fact yes i definitely should have been more clear - I am only referring to larger tournaments, the kind that tend to happen once a month per store around here, with $1K cash pools/Power prizes for the top 8. They tend to cost $35-$40

I agree that $40/wk is absurd and unsustainable. I was referring to the kind of tournament one might attemtp to attend 1-2 time sper month, thus 15 times per year or so

Once or twice a month?  I'm not sure where you live, but out in the midwest stuff like that basically doesn't happen at all.  There are mox events around a couple times a month, but they all run the $25 / 25 proxy setup Ben Carp came up with.  For $35 I expect an event to basically be a P9, or else it is not worth that cost to attend.

[bluemage55]

Charging fees for proxies doesn't necessarily have to dramatically increase the overall price of attending a Vintage tournament.  If a store used to charge, say, $20, then it could instead charge $15, plus $1 per proxy up to 10.

Power becomes a valuable investment if you're looking to play frequently, but the overall price/prize support doesn't have to change much.

[Killane]

Charging fees for proxies doesn't necessarily have to dramatically increase the overall price of attending a Vintage tournament.  If a store used to charge, say, $20, then it could instead charge $15, plus $1 per proxy up to 10.

Power becomes a valuable investment if you're looking to play frequently, but the overall price/prize support doesn't have to change much.

For $1/per proxy up to 10, Power becomes a terrible investment. At $3500, you would have to attend about 20 tournaments per year for this to be worth it from an investment standpoint. $1/proxy does not create a financial incentive to buy Power. The incentive has to be to run no proxies at all. I supposed if it was $15 plus $8 for running proxies + $0.50 per proxy that woudl come closer, but on your plan thee is no reson at all to buy a Lotus or to Keep one after winning it, as it would only save you a few dollars per year. It's the front end loading of the proxy cost that amkes it worth it to keep hold of power in order to run proxy-less, no merely reduce the number of proxies.

In St. Louis, Vroman usually set $5 entry fees.  The largest I've ever paid is $25.  Here, we run weekly tournaments for one pack of Zendikar.

I see. Perhaps I shoudl ahve been more clear- in fact yes i definitely should have been more clear - I am only referring to larger tournaments, the kind that tend to happen once a month per store around here, with $1K cash pools/Power prizes for the top 8. They tend to cost $35-$40

I agree that $40/wk is absurd and unsustainable. I was referring to the kind of tournament one might attemtp to attend 1-2 time sper month, thus 15 times per year or so

Once or twice a month?  I'm not sure where you live, but out in the midwest stuff like that basically doesn't happen at all.  There are mox events around a couple times a month, but they all run the $25 / 25 proxy setup Ben Carp came up with.  For $35 I expect an event to basically be a P9, or else it is not worth that cost to attend.

I see. I'm near the US/Canada border in Ontario. If I had a passport and a car, as far as I know I would have no trouble making 2 or so events per month at the $1K for top 8 type level (sometime featuring a piece of power for the winner and cash for 2-8). These are the types of tournaments I'm advocating this kind of pricing for. I'm certainly not suggesting that the local shop that runs 2 Vintage events per month for packs of Zendikar charge any more than the $5 they charge right now.