[Zendikar Card Discussion] Mindbreak Trap

[Vegeta2711]

Card itself: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=94714&d=1252038014


Mindbreak Trap - 2UU
Instant - Trap (MYTHIC RARE)
If an opponent cast 3 or more spells this turn, you may pay 0 instead of Mindbreak Trap's mana cost.
Exile any number of target spells.
"I'LL ACTIVATE MY TRAP CARD"

So... bones storm? Check. Gets around uncounterability by exiling instead? Check. Costs 0 to cast in relevant situations? Check.

Seems pretty sweet.

[timp]

pretty silly man
now they need to make a trap card that says if an opponent has drawn 3 or more cards this turn you may pay 0 and win the game

[NodFreak]

But still, what storm player goes blind against a deck running blue? (or puts 3 spells in the stack in a row)

And what decks will use it?, its useless against most of the field... storm is not precisely in its better days right now.

[Vegeta2711]

But still, what storm player goes blind against a deck running blue? (or puts 3 spells in the stack in a row)

Well since you don't need to run blue, that argument goes out the window. Also, unless your just the biggest champ on the planet, sometimes you'll have to risk it and just go off. Unless you like getting killed a turn by Time Vault before you could go off.

Like even if storm was completely unplayable (it isn't), at some point it's possible they'd be good again. Then something like this becomes a bit relevant. Also it's believed there's a cycle of 0cc trap cards, so it'll be interesting to see what the other ones are.

[Stormanimagus]

But still, what storm player goes blind against a deck running blue? (or puts 3 spells in the stack in a row)

Well since you don't need to run blue, that argument goes out the window. Also, unless your just the biggest champ on the planet, sometimes you'll have to risk it and just go off. Unless you like getting killed a turn by Time Vault before you could go off.

Like even if storm was completely unplayable (it isn't), at some point it's possible they'd be good again. Then something like this becomes a bit relevant. Also it's believed there's a cycle of 0cc trap cards, so it'll be interesting to see what the other ones are.

Does Exiling a spell counter it?

Cause if not this card sucks big time.

[NodFreak]

But still, what storm player goes blind against a deck running blue? (or puts 3 spells in the stack in a row)

Well since you don't need to run blue, that argument goes out the window. Also, unless your just the biggest champ on the planet, sometimes you'll have to risk it and just go off. Unless you like getting killed a turn by Time Vault before you could go off.

Like even if storm was completely unplayable (it isn't), at some point it's possible they'd be good again. Then something like this becomes a bit relevant. Also it's believed there's a cycle of 0cc trap cards, so it'll be interesting to see what the other ones are.

Does Exiling a spell counter it?

Cause if not this card sucks big time.

Yes, it removes it from the game so it never resolves.

But still, what storm player goes blind against a deck running blue? (or puts 3 spells in the stack in a row)

Well since you don't need to run blue, that argument goes out the window. Also, unless your just the biggest champ on the planet, sometimes you'll have to risk it and just go off. Unless you like getting killed a turn by Time Vault before you could go off.

Like even if storm was completely unplayable (it isn't), at some point it's possible they'd be good again. Then something like this becomes a bit relevant. Also it's believed there's a cycle of 0cc trap cards, so it'll be interesting to see what the other ones are.

Yeah, but im asking... what will you remove from a deck to fit this? or what will you take out of the SB?...   maybe if Storm decks becomes more played, but as it is now... i dont see it.

NOW, i could see this played in ICHORID... but... same thing.... you need your SB to fend off against hate... so where do you fit this?... thats the thing.

--- oh yeah, and i want to see if this is a cycle... the orb for "0" is 5... so it could be...   (maybe the black one will be some uber massacre effect if 3 or more creatures are in the battlefield... i hate that name.... )

[clayparson]

I think it should be said that this card has implications beyond just hosing storm combo.


This is unreal though.  Really excited about this.  Just the presence of this card in the format changes the way you must approach a plethora of archetypes.

[Andreas]

Something to think about: Is this card really significantly better against Storm Combo than Stifle/Trickbind?

[The Atog Lord]

I've been waiting for them to print something like this for years. Suddenly, I'm looking forward to Zendikar. I just thought this would be a White card. And yes, being free is very significant.

[Troy_Costisick]

But still, what storm player goes blind against a deck running blue?

Let's see... if only there were a card, artifact maybe, that could manipulate the top of your library and then let you draw a card at instant speed, thus dodging Duress effects... it'd be even better if this card was already widely played so people wouldn't have to adjust their decks too much to accomodate this new Storm hoser... man, what could fit that bill?  There's got to be something out there....

[NodFreak]

But still, what storm player goes blind against a deck running blue?

Let's see... if only there were a card, artifact maybe, that could manipulate the top of your library and then let you draw a card at instant speed, thus dodging Duress effects... it'd be even better if this card was already widely played so people wouldn't have to adjust their decks too much to accomodate this new Storm hoser... man, what could fit that bill?  There's got to be something out there....

Ooooohhhh sarcasm... well done... that singleton is the real deal, now tell me wise one, what will you take out from your SB/main to fit this and in what decks? and how this will help you against most of the field?

Sorry, but this card just seems too narrow in the current meta.

[ELD]

Looks very very good.  I can't make myself breakfast without casting 3 spells, so the situation is going to come up constantly.  A hard castable, and pitchable to Force counter is very intersesting.  The fact that it can exile cards makes it much stronger vs Yawgmoth's Will. plans as well. 

[T00L]

I feel like this is the type of card that is going to be really good at first and then when people start to remember that its around they will play around it better. Also the thing I always hated about being reactive against storm is that its harder to be reactive against an opponent that isn't a donk. Granted the number of people that play storm decks and aren't donks is a limited number I still think i'd rather just have some duress effects and/or spheres instead.

[Troy_Costisick]

Ooooohhhh sarcasm... well done... that singleton is the real deal, now tell me wise one, what will you take out from your SB/main to fit this and in what decks? and how this will help you against most of the field?

Okay, I accept your challenge.  The answer right now is: nothing.  This is because Storm Combo and Steel City Vault just aren't large enough proportions of the meta to warrent using this card.  I don't think that's why people are going gaga over this card.  But let's imagine a meta where ANT and TPS were equal to Tez.  Take the GenCon Camp's list as good example of what deck might play this card:

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Tinker
1 Time Vault
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Brainstorm
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Inkwell Leviathan
4 Dark Confidant
1 Fire // Ice
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1 Magus of the Unseen
1 Misdirection
1 Voltaic Key
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Rack and Ruin
2 Island
2 Volcanic Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Swamp
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
1 Darkblast

Sideboard
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Trinisphere
2 Pyroclasm
1 Rack and Ruin
2 Arcane Laboratory
1 Hurkyl’s Recall
1 Darkblast

Out of the sideboard, lets replace 2 Arcane Labs and 1 Trinisphere with Mindbreak Trap.  Also, for argument's sake, lets assmume ANT and TPS are really beating Tez at the moment in this imaginary meta.  So let's replace a Red Blast with another Mindbreak Trap.  So, first off, it's easy to see how current sideboards could accomodate 4 Trap cards without too much trouble.  I don't think people would actually play 4, but this was just illustrative.

Now, about siding those traps in... are there any cards in the maindeck that Itou might not want against storm combo... Fire//Ice, Magus of the Unseen, Hurkyl's Recall, and Rack and Ruin spring out at me.  CoV could probably be traded out too instead of the Magus if one was facing SCV.  So, second, it seems to me that current decks that might use Mindbreak Trap have plenty of cards in the main they could side out for it.  Since this deck relies heavily on Top already, getting MBT and protecting it shouldn't be a big problem (i.e. it fits perfectly).

Now, against the rest of the field, how unusual is it for someone to lay Land-Mox-SoloMoxenCrypt into Bomb on turn one?  It happens.  What about other fringe decks like Elf-combo and Belcher that might use Storm cards or Banefire as a win condition?  You notice that Mindbreak Trap can "counter" something like Banefire or a spell protected by Vexing Shusher.  Right now, the card is probably not good against the field.  But the meta will change.  Storm combo will always be a viable strategy (or, at least it will until we know jfor sure ust how good this card is against it).  This card will be useful.

Does this answer your questions?

[NodFreak]

Yes, and Thanks for proving my point, with the current meta... this is no-good.

I see the ups of this card in a storm/combo controlled meta, being blue and all to support FoW... but thats not happening (right now i mean)

Come on, some people are even saying this is better than FoW.... >_>

Since the printing of the first card that hoses Storm strategies people go all "ohhh storm is dead" and stuff... canonist, stifle, trickbind, leyline, CotV, nullrod, mindcensor, teeg, thorn of amethyst... even mindlock orb... and thats not the case to this days...  this is in the same category, sure, its good at what it does... but also other cards that have a boarder applications against other matchups as well.    And all in all, Storm still exists to this days (with less prescence, but still, can deal with all that hate)

The only card i see as a real storm killer is Trinisphere, but its because it doesnt even let you play your answers... thing that other hate cards let you do.

Anyways, its just another card that storm players will have to learn to play around (like T00L said)

Well, to close this... sorry about my reaction in the last post, but even you said that "Storm combo will always be a viable strategy (or, at least it will until we know jfor sure ust how good this card is against it)" ... we have to wait for the meta to change in favor of storm/combo to see if this will be played over other alternatives or not. (at least to fight combo/storm)

[mmcgeach]

This is probably more relevant in type 2, where Cascade decks put multiple spells on the stack simultaneously, and Double Negative already sees some play as an answer.

[Harlequin]

I think people are getting way too hung up on the any number part.  It counters a spell - FOR NOTHING.  Very similar to FOW, and -someimtes- as extra bonus-gravy it can counter multiple spells or storm copies.  

It like:
If an opponent cast 3 or more spells this turn, you may pay 0 instead of Mindbreak Trap's mana cost.
Choose one - Exile target spell




or sometimes Exile more than 1 target spell...

Its crazy!!  Most decks in vintage run full moxen, and at some point in the first 3 turns, a player will likely be casting more than two spells in a single turn.  

[Smmenen]

Another card that counters Mind's Desire (and Tendrils!)

[mmcgeach]

...at some point in the first 3 turns, a player will likely be casting more than two spells in a single turn.  

that is a good point: that this gives you an additional defense against people doing really absurd things first-turn-on-the-play.

[Stormanimagus]

HOLY FREE-COUNTERSPELL BATMAN!

Wow. I think this changes EVERYTHING. I don't want to overhype this card or anything, but. . . ok, just wow!

Think about the implications of this card. This is like a new Leyline Of The Void vs. Storm Combo decks and Turn 1 win decks like Belcher. But what I'm actually excited about is the implications this has FOR Storm combo decks. One might say "Why"?

Here's what I think R & D and Wizards is doing. They are trying out cards like this that specifically have implications in shutting down Vintage Strategies to see how effective they are at doing so. This clearly hurts a Storm Player's Consistency and gives Fish a solid Anti-Storm card for the SB or even the MD if they also expect a lot of Tezz too (3 spells a turn for Tezz is pretty common, especially on the Yawg. Will turn or the Tinker turn if they go that route to get around Null Rod). I think that IF this card hurts the strategies enough that it is intended to R & D and Wizards will feel more comfortable in unrestricting other certain cards *cough cough Brainstorm & Demonic Consultation*. I really honest-to-goodness think that that is what they are up to. Why else would they create such a card at all?

Zendikar looks to be the most Vintage impacting set to come around since Mirrodin block if there are even a couple more gems like this guy. All I have to say is IT'S ABOUT TIME! This set could really shape a different picture of the metagame and this card alone.  Discussion of changes to the B/R list aren't allowed in this forum.  -DA  A deck running Remora + Mindbreak Trap would give any Storm deck serious headaches.

I really think this card (and hopefully more like it) may do a lot to sound a significant change in the Vintage metagame that will be more far-reaching than people realize. Once and for all Drains may be dethroned and simply have to fight their way into the fold like the rest of the field has been doing for the past year and a half.

-Storm

[Harlequin]

Or the opposite is true: and they are giving this to us in order to justify restricting Force of Will (to end the reign of blue).

[Stormanimagus]

Or the opposite is true: and they are giving this to us in order to justify restricting Force of Will (to end the reign of blue).

That would make Stormanimagus a very sad panda . Why would you ruin my day with an idea like that? Geez!

*walks into tiny hole to cry*

[ilpeggiore]

limited fow --> c'mon thst cannot be

i think its good.

it's pitchable , it can make 2x1, it exiles, il can be done for 0, paying 4 for a counterspell is not that much, mox mox somethingstrong is stopped with only 1 card (no mana , no pv, no other) ide tutor, bomb, my fow, his fow.

[MirariKnight]

This card is definitely good but is most likely a 1 of (in the board or maybe in the Misdirection slot).
I do agree with Stormanimagus that this looks like a really good set for Vintage, and that it is intentional, but unrestricting Yawgmoth's Bargain just seems crazy. That would force everyone to play these as a 4 of somewhere in the 75 which doesn't seem helpful at all to the health of the format.

[ELD]

Another card that counters Mind's Desire (and Tendrils!)

No played card has been able to counter Mind's Desire.  I've seen Mind's Desire's stifled/trickbinded, only to have Yawgmoth's Will flipped.  Mind's Desire is so beyond good, it's like an unglued card.  It's amazing that we now have a way to counter it for free. 

[Stormanimagus]

Another card that counters Mind's Desire (and Tendrils!)

No played card has been able to counter Mind's Desire.  I've seen Mind's Desire's stifled/trickbinded, only to have Yawgmoth's Will flipped.  Mind's Desire is so beyond good, it's like an unglued card.  It's amazing that we now have a way to counter it for free. 

Wait, does this stop Storm from actually Triggering because you exile the card? So, no copies?

-Storm

[Stamford]

limited fow --> c'mon thst cannot be

The same was said at some point of time in Vintage about Brainstorm and Thirst for Knowledge.

The fact that every deck running heavy blue runs 4 FOW already justifies restricting of some sort, just like how every blue deck in the past ran 4 Brainstorm. Its just that Wizards dont know whether or not restricting FOW will throw the format entirely in shambles and make combo decks run rampant.

Anyway, this card is not just ran in blue decks. This card is a straight up counter for ANY deck against storm decks. Yes, kiddies, imagine a Storm deck player thinking he is safe after playing Hurkyl's Recall against Workshop Lock decks and comboing off with just enough mana for a 10 spell Tendrils only to have this card fuck it all up.

But still, what storm player goes blind against a deck running blue?

Let's see... if only there were a card, artifact maybe, that could manipulate the top of your library and then let you draw a card at instant speed, thus dodging Duress effects... it'd be even better if this card was already widely played so people wouldn't have to adjust their decks too much to accomodate this new Storm hoser... man, what could fit that bill?  There's got to be something out there....

Sensei's Divining Top and Brainstorm???

[NodFreak]

Another card that counters Mind's Desire (and Tendrils!)

No played card has been able to counter Mind's Desire.  I've seen Mind's Desire's stifled/trickbinded, only to have Yawgmoth's Will flipped.  Mind's Desire is so beyond good, it's like an unglued card.  It's amazing that we now have a way to counter it for free.  

Wait, does this stop Storm from actually Triggering because you exile the card? So, no copies?

-Storm

No, you let the trigger for storm resolve putting the copies into the stack and then you cast it removing the original+copies... seems like nix got good?

[Stormanimagus]

Another card that counters Mind's Desire (and Tendrils!)

No played card has been able to counter Mind's Desire.  I've seen Mind's Desire's stifled/trickbinded, only to have Yawgmoth's Will flipped.  Mind's Desire is so beyond good, it's like an unglued card.  It's amazing that we now have a way to counter it for free.  

Wait, does this stop Storm from actually Triggering because you exile the card? So, no copies?

-Storm

No, you let the trigger for storm resolve putting the copies into the stack and then you cast it removing the original+copies... seems like nix got good?

But this only exiles one spell so wouldn't the copies still be on the stack? Your explanation didn't make sense the way you phrased it.

-Storm

[NodFreak]

Another card that counters Mind's Desire (and Tendrils!)

No played card has been able to counter Mind's Desire.  I've seen Mind's Desire's stifled/trickbinded, only to have Yawgmoth's Will flipped.  Mind's Desire is so beyond good, it's like an unglued card.  It's amazing that we now have a way to counter it for free.  

Wait, does this stop Storm from actually Triggering because you exile the card? So, no copies?

-Storm

No, you let the trigger for storm resolve putting the copies into the stack and then you cast it removing the original+copies... seems like nix got good?

But this only exiles one spell so wouldn't the copies still be on the stack? Your explanation didn't make sense the way you phrased it.

-Storm

No, read the card, exiles ANY NUMBER of target spells.... so, the original spell + all the copies if you want.

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