Zendikar Card Discussipn - Archive Trap

[2nd_lawl]

[Necrologia]

Predict draws you 2 cards when it counters Vamp/Mystical, and doesn't see any play whatsoever.

Who cares about milling 13 cards off the top every time your opponent breaks a fetchland? More likely than not you're just making the opponent's Will bigger. Milling an opponent for less than his entire library in a shot is a waste of time 99% of the time.

[A.-1.]

Decks with few win conditions, like TPS, fear Extract more than this card, and no one plays Extract. I'd rather play a card that I know will hit a win condition (unless it's in their hand and in that case Archive Trap doesn't do anything either) than a card that not only has a good of chance of whiffing but also makes Yawg Will better. I don't see this card being playable at all even as a sideboard card.

[Stormanimagus]

@thread- I think people should be careful in writing this card off too quickly. It might not be good on its own, but it might be able to be worked into a shell to make a successful Mill Deck. I'm not saying it's playable, but one should mess around with new cards, especially if they have the alternate casting cost of being FREE! Geez guys, innovate a little! Think about the possibilities of:

4 Archive Trap
4 Leyline Of The Void
1-2 Helm Of Obedience
4 Extract
4 Force Of Will
4 Extirpate

etc.

There's a possibility that you could play a control shell and be able to win on the mill strategy without going to time. That could create a really cool archetype for Vintage. At least consider the possibility before writing it off. I'm certainly gonna rack my brain looking for cards to build a deck around this with.

-Storm

[2nd_lawl]

Predict draws you 2 cards when it counters Vamp/Mystical, and doesn't see any play whatsoever.

This card is very different from predict though, especially since its free, and unlike predict you don't need to actually know what your opponent vamped/sealed for to get your mana's worth. It also has some other interactions, like when an opponent uses brainstorm to protect a card from duress (assuming they popped a fetch to play brainstorm, which is fairly common on turn 1.  Also 13 cards is alot.  Usually it will be 25% or more of their deck,  which is worth considering as dangerous enough seeing as several decks in the format play as few as 2 or 3 win conditions. 

Obviously nearly every deck in the format triggers triggers this condition multiple times per game, the question is weather free is a cheap enough cost for this effect.

[Necrologia]

Predict draws you 2 cards when it counters Vamp/Mystical, and doesn't see any play whatsoever.

This card is very different from predict though, especially since its free, and unlike predict you don't need to actually know what your opponent vamped/sealed for to get your mana's worth. It also has some other interactions, like when an opponent uses brainstorm to protect a card from duress (assuming they popped a fetch to play brainstorm, which is fairly common on turn 1.  Also 13 cards is alot.  Usually it will be 25% or more of their deck,  which is worth considering as dangerous enough seeing as several decks in the format play as few as 2 or 3 win conditions.  

Obviously nearly every deck in the format triggers triggers this condition multiple times per game, the question is weather free is a cheap enough cost for this effect.

With Vamp/Seal you've got a solid chance just saying Black Lotus. Brainstorm is now restricted, casting it on turn 1 is no longer likely.

This card is just bad. 13 cards is nothing. I've had Demonic Consultation mill me to 4 cards left in my library and still won handily. Even in a dedicated deck, Mill is a terrible way to go about winning. You're trying to deplete a stat that starts at 60 instead of 20, and in doing so can further your opponent's plan. If you're simply praying to hit all of a deck's win conditions, Extract, as already mentioned, does the same thing, but significantly better. And Extract sees as much play as Predict.

This card would be significantly more powerful if you could target yourself with it. Think about that.

[clayparson]

This card would be significantly more powerful if you could target yourself with it. Think about that.

my thoughts precisely.

[2nd_lawl]

Predict draws you 2 cards when it counters Vamp/Mystical, and doesn't see any play whatsoever.

This card is very different from predict though, especially since its free, and unlike predict you don't need to actually know what your opponent vamped/sealed for to get your mana's worth. It also has some other interactions, like when an opponent uses brainstorm to protect a card from duress (assuming they popped a fetch to play brainstorm, which is fairly common on turn 1.  Also 13 cards is alot.  Usually it will be 25% or more of their deck,  which is worth considering as dangerous enough seeing as several decks in the format play as few as 2 or 3 win conditions.  

Obviously nearly every deck in the format triggers triggers this condition multiple times per game, the question is weather free is a cheap enough cost for this effect.

With Vamp/Seal you've got a solid chance just saying Black Lotus.

Maybe, but Yawgmoths Will, Tinker or Ancestral are often just as likely. This card certainly compares favorably to predict and extract if its used simply as a counterspell on Vamp/Mystical/Seal.  Free is good, Free automatically means that a card deserves a second look, free counterspells that counter 3 of the 5 best tutors in the format for value (since unlike simply countering the tutor, you can actually get rid of whatever card they needed most + 12 others) and can do a host of other minor tricks seems interesting.
With modern Drain and combo lists running so few kill conditions the potential to "oops I win" should not be ignored, especially for zero mana.

Brainstorm is now restricted, casting it on turn 1 is no longer likely.

Thanks for the update! Tinker is also restricted, should we not play cards that deal with it either?

This card is just bad. 13 cards is nothing. I've had Demonic Consultation mill me to 4 cards left in my library and still won handily.

Thats probably because you got the exact card you were looking for (this is the functionality of tutors, or at least it has been since the restriction of brainstorm, before that tutors parked your car and gave foot massages!), Now imagine if your opponent cast Arvhive Trap and milled away the card the card you were looking for(which depending on how many cards were left in your library, + the 6 from consultation would probably have been anywhere between a 25-40% chance), instead of winning on the spot you would have lost!

Even in a dedicated deck, Mill is a terrible way to go about winning. You're trying to deplete a stat that starts at 60 instead of 20, and in doing so can further your opponent's plan.

Good thing I never advocated Milling as a victory condition!

If you're simply praying to hit all of a deck's win conditions Extract, as already mentioned, does the same thing, but significantly better. And Extract sees as much play as Predict.

Actually if you are trying to hit ALL of a decks win conditions, extract is terrible. 3 extracts might be good, but drawing 3 copies of 1 card in a single game is unlikely(don't ask me why- lots of terribly complex math reasons, im sure).  That might have something to do with nobody playing it.

This card would be significantly more powerful if you could target yourself with it. Think about that.

I would imagine that the vast majority of cards become more powerful if you remove their targeting restrictions.  Let me tell you about the time I Terrored my opponent.

[Necrologia]

Brainstorm is now restricted, casting it on turn 1 is no longer likely.

Thanks for the update! Tinker is also restricted, should we not play cards that deal with it either?

I only mentioned it was restricted because you said Fetch into Brainstorm is a common turn 1 play. Not since last June.

Good thing I never advocated Milling as a victory condition!

If the card doesn't help you win, why run it? I'd consider Extracting all of an opponent's win conditions the second most potent form of milling, after hitting their entire library in 1 go.

Actually if you are trying to hit ALL of a decks win conditions, extract is terrible. 3 extracts might be good, but drawing 3 copies of 1 card in a single game is unlikely(don't ask me why- lots of terribly complex math reasons, im sure).  That might have something to do with nobody playing it.

You're misunderstanding. I'm not trying to say Extract is a good card, I'm trying to say this new card is terrible because it's on par with Extract. Three Extracts might win you the game against certain decks if you're lucky. Three of this Trap might win you the game against certain decks if you're lucky.

I would imagine that the vast majority of cards become more powerful if you remove their targeting restrictions.  Let me tell you about the time I Terrored my opponent.

This is getting silly. You're trying to argue the milling of 13 cards is something the opponent should be worried about. I'm merely stating that it's so trivial the opponent's reaction is going to be somewhere between indifference and looking forward to it. Dredge would love it, it buffs STV's Welder/Regrowth/Will, Stax hopes you hit Strip, and Fish is utterly nonplussed.

Please, don't take this as a personal attack. I simply remain unconvinced that the card will see any play in Vintage whatsoever. If a brand new Leyline/Helm/Archivist's Trap deck becomes all the rage I'll be thrilled to face a completely new archtype.

[nineisnoone]

Even in a dedicated deck, Mill is a terrible way to go about winning. You're trying to deplete a stat that starts at 60 instead of 20, and in doing so can further your opponent's plan.

Good thing I never advocated Milling as a victory condition!

Yeah.  But you didn't advocate ANYTHING. You just posted a picture of the card.
When the thread doesn't actually have an idea behind it, why are you bothering to defend it?

[BruiZar]

If you can hardcast this, this could often help you steal games against ichorid but 5 mana is too much to keep open in the first couple of turns.

Against MUD, its useless because they don't have anything to search their library except solemn simulacrum.

Against Stax the same is true, plus they have Goblin Welders to abuse it.

Against combo, you're feeding a lethal graveyard unless you get lucky removing yawgmoth's will. I think its okay in combo though because of the restricted cards you're essentially stripping away.

Against control, I think its actually pretty good

Against GW beats, Gaddock Teeg ruins your chances to cast it

Against other beats, it could be okay, but they do run alot of cards in multiples.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

in a control deck with MD Leylines this could really be strong. Then, those 13 cards are exiled on the spot. (you could also try it with planar void+extirpate).

[BruiZar]

How about a fish build using Path to Exile/Meddling Mage? Mage can cut off remaining kill conditions while Path sets up the trap.

[Troy_Costisick]

I like the fact that they are continueing to explore Mill strategies.  However, I have a hard time seeing how this fits into any archetype- even Helm of the Void combo.  It would be a real nuisance to play against, especially for aggro decks since they have no GY recursion.  But...meh

[jewfro]

I doubt this will be able to fit into any deck right now, maybe later mill might be a viable archetype but not now, unless you build a deck around this card, i don't see it having much of an impact.

[zimagic]

There is the statistical anomoly that is 13 x 4 + 7 opening hand + 1st turn draw = 60 cards. It's a very thin thread to build a deck around in any format. The problem with this is that it doesn't do enough to win the game on its own and only contributes to winning the game with more cards that do exactly the same thing. I proxied it into a Standard deck in the place of Traumatize at lunch and was generally milling more off Mind Funerals.

And what do you do in Vintage when your opponent opens turn 1 playing Dredge? Shuffle for Game 2?

 

[Stormanimagus]

There is the statistical anomoly that is 13 x 4 + 7 opening hand + 1st turn draw = 60 cards. It's a very thin thread to build a deck around in any format. The problem with this is that it doesn't do enough to win the game on its own and only contributes to winning the game with more cards that do exactly the same thing. I proxied it into a Standard deck in the place of Traumatize at lunch and was generally milling more off Mind Funerals.

And what do you do in Vintage when your opponent opens turn 1 playing Dredge? Shuffle for Game 2?

 

Well, this is why you'd run 4 MD Leyline AND 4 MD Extirpate. Somehow I doubt Ichorid deals well with that Game 1.

[Smmenen]

Would this card be playable if it cost "0" and were blue?  

[thorme]

Even in a dedicated deck, Mill is a terrible way to go about winning. You're trying to deplete a stat that starts at 60 instead of 20, and in doing so can further your opponent's plan.

I disagree.

60v20:  Really you need to take out like 53 cards (barring mulligans) and with 1 card taking out 13, that's almost 25% of their remaining deck.  Pretty sure red decks would run a zero-cc Lava Axe.

Opponents plan:  Another way to think about it is that the opponent, by trying for card advantage, is almost always furthering your plan as well.


Just sayin...I don't think mill is competitive in Vintage right now, but not necessarily because it is a bad win condition in the abstract.

[Necrologia]

Even in a dedicated deck, Mill is a terrible way to go about winning. You're trying to deplete a stat that starts at 60 instead of 20, and in doing so can further your opponent's plan.

I disagree.

60v20:  Really you need to take out like 53 cards (barring mulligans) and with 1 card taking out 13, that's almost 25% of their remaining deck.  Pretty sure red decks would run a zero-cc Lava Axe.

Opponents plan:  Another way to think about it is that the opponent, by trying for card advantage, is almost always furthering your plan as well.


Just sayin...I don't think mill is competitive in Vintage right now, but not necessarily because it is a bad win condition in the abstract.

Fair enough.

In the completely abstract milling is as viable as damage, provided the milling cards are ~2-3x as powerful, given that they're trying to deplete a resource ~2-3x as large. Historically this has not been the case. This card is probably of the power level necessary to make mill a viable strategy, but it can't do it alone. If Tarmogoyf were the only creature in existence outside of Homelands, I wouldn't consider aggro to be a particularly great way to win.

Mill cards need a dedicated deck to be worth anything. I don't believe there's enough support cards to make the archtype viable, and until there are, mill cards are worthless. Not to mention that Gaea's Blessing is probably the best bullet ever printed. It works in any deck, for no mana, and doesn't even have to be drawn. All it asks is that you keep LotV/Planar Void off the table and you can't lose.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Consider that you can probably nail one of your opponent's duals or engine cards with Extirpate if you run 4x this + 4x Extirpate.  Good chance of screwing them out of mana for the rest of the game.

If not for the brutality that is Tarmogoyf, I'd suggest that this could be very cute in a revived SS.  Also, Haunting Echoes is anything but impossible to play off Rituals.

[Guli]

53 - 13 = 40

with a lot of card draw and fuel you should be able to cast at least 2 of these

40 - 13 = 27

Now add in brain freeze

27/3 = 9

Getting storm count 9 should not be a big problem.

Archive Trap has the potential to create a whole new archetype. Storm/Mill

Lots of draw, free counters, cheap spells and brain freeze. They WILL eventually search their library, then you deliver the surprise with Archive Trap.

It is raw math, I am sure the opponent will draw cards on its own. Or if they Oath/Dredge things can go super fast.

Looks interesting

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

53 - 13 = 40

with a lot of card draw and fuel you should be able to cast at least 2 of these

40 - 13 = 27

Now add in brain freeze

27/3 = 9

Getting storm count 9 should not be a big problem.

Archive Trap has the potential to create a whole new archetype. Storm/Mill

Lots of draw, free counters, cheap spells and brain freeze. They WILL eventually search their library, then you deliver the surprise with Archive Trap.

It is raw math, I am sure the opponent will draw cards on its own. Or if they Oath/Dredge things can go super fast.

Looks interesting

dredge maybe, although I think you'll probably find a return target for them,but in oath I'd be worried about blessing. Against the large portion of the format running yawg's will how do you feel about milling

[silvernail]

Hmm what about something like :

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Planar Void
4 Force of Will
3 Negate
2 Misdirection or 2 Mindbreak Trap
4 Dark Confidant
4 Archive Trap
3 Glimpse the Unthinkable
3 Brainfreeze
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Mystical tutor
1 Dark Blast
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral recall
1 Vamp tutor
1 Demonic tutor
1 Mox sapphire
1 Mox jet
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol ring
+lands

This uses glimpse and brainfreeze in addition to the trap to help deck the opponent, alongside 6 exile enchantments.
Best case scenario I see for an opening play would be to pull off a opening leyline followed by trap + brainfreeze in response to their eot fetch + 1cc spell to mill of 13 (trap) + 12 (storm at 4) + 7 (opening hand) + 1(fetched land) for 32 cards gone.

then you need to handle 28/27 cards with some combination of 3 glimpse 3 trap and 2 brainfreeze.

So sure, the deck could look good in theory at least.

[AmbivalentDuck]

You have to work hard to justify not running Extirpate in that list.

Think turn 1 vs Oath, they fetch, Archive Trap, Extirpate an Oath...game.  Or replace Oath with Tendrils/Stax parts/mana for tez.

[nataz]

Would this card be playable if it cost "0" and were blue?  

nope

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Would this card be playable if it cost "0" and were blue?  

nope

Intuition+Will would be instant win.  Still probably not good enough though.

[The Atog Lord]

This is the sort of card which I think is very interesting, but likely not good enough to play. The idea of a powerful game-changing effect for no mana is very appealing. On the other hand, quite often the opponent will be more helped than harmed by putting thirteen cards into his graveyard. And even resolving two copies of this card isn't going to guarantee a win. Rather, with Dark Confidant so popular, even with Leyline of the Void in play, there's a good chance that the opponent will still have win conditions left after losing twenty-three cards. So, I feel about this card like I do about Disrupt -- an awesome, interesting card which is probably best left in the deckbuilding binder.

[Smmenen]

Would this card be playable if it cost "0" and were blue?  

nope

That's my point.

[BruiZar]

Would this card be playable if it cost "0" and were blue?  

nope

That's my point.

What if it had replicate?