Oath of Druids Post-Zendikar

[scifiantihero]

you guys see another way to get enough extra turns for winning with iona? not that i dont like it but i dont own time vault and i doubt that we will see vault as it is now for forever... ^^'

so u have any ideas for a short time walk recursion or something like that? would be really nice for me. =)

I don't think we will see errata on Time Vault.  They seem to really want things to be like original wordings, now.  It's probably against forum rules to offer to trade you my extra one, huh.

A couple Krosan Reclamations might get you quite a few extra turns, but probably you're better off just playing a dragon version, if you aren't allowed proxies.

[SiegeX]

I confirmed w Lee sharpe, who is wizards employee/level 27 judge that indeed it is a draw if you can demonstrate that you can neither win nor lose in this way.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news but this didn't sound right to me either, what Lotus Head described is how I believed it to be as well.  I asked Toby Ellliott (Lvl5 judge) and he confirmed that you do not force the game into a draw because there are *optional* actions involved; this is in contrast to the WGD combo. You can, however, try to convince your opponent to accept a draw or concede but he would be foolish to do so.

Here is the chat verbatim.  We substituted the vault/key with twister recursion with a simpler (but same outcome) scenario of Beacon of Destruction being cast with no cards left in library:

<+telliott> you cannot make a player take an action
<+telliott> but you can ask them how many times they are doing something, then tel them they have to do something else after that
<SiegeX> so lets go with the Beacon loop since it's a simpler version of this scenario. are you saying that if i cast beacon with no library that I am forced to not play it if my opp does not agree to the draw?
<SiegeX> telliott: so opp: "i play beacon infi times" me: "you must choose an arbitrary number and we assume it happens"  opp:"ok i choose a billion" me:"ok now you must pass the turn with beacon in hand and no library". I pass the turn, opp decks himself.
<SiegeX> is that how it plays out?
<+telliott> yes
<SiegeX> hate to beat a dead horse but if we go back to the beacon loop above. What if beacon was an instant? Could my opp choose an arbitrary large number of times to play beacon then pass the turn to me with beacon in hand. I then pass turn back to him and before his draw step he casts beacon and now we are back where we started.  Is this extra action just making the loop more complex and thus he must choose an arbitrary # of times to do this as well?
<+telliott> still a loop

You might want to re-describe the situation with Lee because I don't think he fully understood the scenario.  

[TheShop]

I may not fully understand this, but here is how I see the draw situation working out:
You set up the vault+key for infinite turns.  You have an allotted amount of time to take each action before you get smacked by a judge for stalling (i thought that this time period was 1 minute).  So for the rest of the game, you pass priority whenever you should, but keep taking extra turns.  You simply play though all of your turns without using more than the stalling amount of time.  The round hits time.  You play out the rest of your turns after time is called.  Draw.  The opponent can't win, but you can't either...so just play lands, vault+key, and twist over and over until time.

Other than that, I don't see a single game ending in a draw.  Plus, I thought you lose the game if you cause an infinite loop you cannot stop...like Dragon when something happens to your only way to stop the dragon cycle.  I wasn't aware that there was a draw in dragon in those situations, but would be interested if there is.

[SiegeX]

You have an allotted amount of time to take each action before you get smacked by a judge for stalling (i thought that this time period was 1 minute).

This is true, but the comp rules say that you must advance the gamestate and passing the turn does not qualify as advancing the gamestate.  Since in both scenarios (beacon & twister recursion) you are creating a loop by performing optional actions, you must choose an arbitrarily large # of times you do that loop and then do something else that advances the gamestate.

[vroman]

ok assuming that you cant draw, then another win would be critical. fire/ice or tezeret are acceptable, but heres something a little bit more synergistic
instead of 4 duress play
2 duress
1 piracy charm
1 extirpate

when you take inf turns you duress them, then extirpate whatever you duressed. repeat until there are just lands and creatures left, then when you piracy charm they have to discard a creature/land, then can extirpate that. eventually you get their library+hand+yard down to less than 7 cards and twister kills them.
piracy charm is not horrible. it kills welder/dconf if you dont have oath yet. it can be situationally good instant speed discard. it pitches to force. it can make Iona attack past marit lage which has already come up once.
fire/ice might be better all around. I like having an excuse to run extirpate main tho.

[TheShop]

You have an allotted amount of time to take each action before you get smacked by a judge for stalling (i thought that this time period was 1 minute).

This is true, but the comp rules say that you must advance the gamestate and passing the turn does not qualify as advancing the gamestate.  Since in both scenarios (beacon & twister recursion) you are creating a loop by performing optional actions, you must choose an arbitrarily large # of times you do that loop and then do something else that advances the gamestate.

Does playing an additional turn in which you draw a card, lay a land, and play some spells qualify as advancing the gamestate?...because if it does, then you can still take the game to a draw by killing the time in the round.  I did not suggest naming a number of times in the loop, because I was suggesting that you play out each turn as if you still had a win condition, though you do not.  I suggest choosing 1 turn at a time and playing them out until the round ends.

[SiegeX]

It's an interesting point you bring up so I asked this very same question to #mtgjudge and basically got the cold shoulder.  Seems like judges despise theoretical loop questions which don't have easy answers and so they refused to answer it; granted neither Lee nor Toby were in at the time.  I started a new thread on this in the Rules Forum HERE because I think we deserve a conclusive answer on this, assuming there is one.  It's quite possible that this is a gray area of the rules and whether or not you will get a game loss due to stalling and or unsporting conduct may be dependent on who is the judge that day.

[TheShop]

Again, this is just an opinion.  But I have read tournament reports before (one I think from Steve playing Tendrils) where the kill conditions were Jester's Capped out of the deck and the situation was either scoop or play it out to time.  I vaguely remember Steve talking about how many bounce spells he had left.

I do not know how a judge would be able to rule against you for playing out turns as normal until time.  The reason is that the judge would have to know exactly what cards were left in your deck and which cards had been removed.  Without what I would consider excessive effort...How would a judge know that you still do not have a win condition, with infinite turns, Ancestral is a win condition if you can cycle through your deck 20 times.  If there is a rule against this, it does not seem enforceable by a judge at a normal tournament.  (this is all assuming that you do not break the slow-play rule and make your desperate state obvious)

[SiegeX]

How would a judge know that you still do not have a win condition, with infinite turns, Ancestral is a win condition if you can cycle through your deck 20 times.  If there is a rule against this, it does not seem enforceable by a judge at a normal tournament.  (this is all assuming that you do not break the slow-play rule and make your desperate state obvious)

He would pull you aside and ask you what your intent is.  If you have no good convincing answer other than "burning down the clock" then I wouldn't be surprised if you get some sort of reprimand.  Unfortunately, Ancestral is not a wincon because twister will throw his yard back into his library too. 

If you however throw something in like Fire//Ice and tell your opp you intend to tap him down and burn him to infinity you might be able to get him to concede on the spot if it's game 1.  If it's game 2 and you lost game 1, doing this will probably result in him telling you to carry it out and hope that time is called before he dies.  I don't see any way for you to be hit with a judge call in this scenario since you are working towards a goal that you can prove will actually lead to a win given sufficient time.

[TheShop]

Sorry bout the Ancestral/Twister thing.  I forgot.

Why would the judge have a suspicious to call you aside, other than reading this forum?  It seems like several times when a player takes infinite turns in Tezz, they still need to go find a win condition. (assuming tezz is not in play)  What would cause the judge to assume anything different than you are just waiting to hit your win condition?  IF there is no suspicious mindframe, there will be no calling you aside to ask your intent.

[vroman]

I just won the vintage tourney at Icon in springfield IL w this:

4 misty rainforest
4 forbidden orchard
2 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 library alexandria
1 forest
1 island
1 tolarian academy
5 mox ruby pearl saphire jet emerald
4 black lotus petal sol ring mana crypt
4 force will
4 oath druid
3 spell pierce
2 duress
1 extirpate
1 piracy charm
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 iona shield emeria
1 krosan reclamation
1 yawgmoth will
1 regrowth
1 reclaim
1 thirst knowledge
1 time vault
1 voltaic key
1 sensei diving top
1 rebuild
1 mystical tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 demonic tutor
1 brainstorm
1 ponder
1 merchant scroll
1 timetwister
1 lat nam legacy
side
3 hellkite overlord
3 mindbreak trap
2 pernicious deed
2 extirpate
1 chain vapor
1 echoing truth
1 repeal
1 oxidize
1 pithing needle

strangely in 4rds, I never once drew either piracy charm or duress, nor needed to run the alt win plan, so cant report how these slots compared to drains. I had a great day, going 8-0-1 overall, including winning the morning legacy tourney.
I beat ichorid, TPS, URB dark drain, and workshop aggro, w an intentional draw vs another drain deck. the only game I lost in this tourney was one I totally punted vs TPS, bc Im still getting used to the corner cases w this archetype.
spell pierce performed very well, and I was reluctant to cut one for the library slot, bc I expected more drain.

[AmbivalentDuck]

1 lat nam legacy
side
3 hellkite overlord

1. How did Legacy perform?  Drawing Iona sucks for sure...but is this necessary after testing or a change itself in testing?

2. Why 3x Hellkite instead of voltronx's 2x Hellkite + 1x Karrthus plan?

[Bibendum]

With rebel oath how has duress been working compared to Thoughtsieze? i feel like the life loss isnt a huge issue for oath and it might be easier to hit other targets with it

[MirariKnight]

There are only 2-3 creatures you'd ever worry about that Thoughtseize gets, otherwise you want them to play creatures. Those creatures are: Meddling Mage, Pridemage and sometimes Trygon Predator. VERY rarely with this deck Welder would be a problem if it can weld out your Vault/Key combo, and Trygon isn't too bad unless he has haste or you don't have Oath out yet.

I'm also curious about Lat Nam's legacy Vroman, because I've seen you win many times with Iona in hand, which isn't really the worst thing in the world (at least it means you draw your entire deck with Yawgwill)

With all that said everything at this point is picking hairs. This deck is a beast and most of the slots are predetermined by it's very nature.

[RecklessEmbermage]

Congratulations Vroman! You very early with stepping out of the box with this one.

I'm also very pleased about contributing, even deminutively, in developing this deck. It looks like a real beast by now.

[vroman]

latnam is necesary for the corner case of being able to not deck if I go all in on yawgwill plan and I fear extirpate. ie I mill library, get priority, announce krosan reclamation targeting both yawgwill and twister. if they extirpate yawgwill, I twister and am fine. if they extirpate twister, then I yawgwill, reclaim X, regrowth lat nam, attack 7. next turn draw X, attack 7. next upkeep latnam X, draw X, attack 7 ftw.
latnam also does its primary purpose of shuffling back Iona or redundant oath. not outstanding, but functional.


I do not understand why karthus is good.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I do not understand why karthus is good.

Tangle Wire resolves, tap Hellkite(s), Oath Resolves, Karrthus -> untap Hellkites.  The idea being that losing a point of power and pumpability is worth the chance of untapping.

[RecklessEmbermage]

I do not understand why karthus is good.

Tangle Wire resolves, tap Hellkite(s), Oath Resolves, Karrthus -> untap Hellkites.  The idea being that losing a point of power and pumpability is worth the chance of untapping.

Karrthus on second activation is a two-turn kill with tangle wire in play, while 3 overlord will tend to take all three activations as long as the stax player is taking very limited pain. Throwing karrthus into the mix doesn't alter that, does it?

If tangle wire is not on the table and you hit karrthus first, the stax player should still be dead from second activation.

[AmbivalentDuck]

In other words, Karrthus isn't a liability, is relatively low-cost insurance against Extirpate, and helps when you're under a Tangle Wire.

[Suicideking]

I do not understand why karthus is good.

Tangle Wire resolves, tap Hellkite(s), Oath Resolves, Karrthus -> untap Hellkites.  The idea being that losing a point of power and pumpability is worth the chance of untapping.

Karrthus on second activation is a two-turn kill with tangle wire in play, while 3 overlord will tend to take all three activations as long as the stax player is taking very limited pain. Throwing karrthus into the mix doesn't alter that, does it?

If tangle wire is not on the table and you hit karrthus first, the stax player should still be dead from second activation.

This kind of shit almost never happens.  I cant remember a time where a stax player locked me out with tangle wires.

[RecklessEmbermage]

I do not understand why karthus is good.

Tangle Wire resolves, tap Hellkite(s), Oath Resolves, Karrthus -> untap Hellkites.  The idea being that losing a point of power and pumpability is worth the chance of untapping.

Karrthus on second activation is a two-turn kill with tangle wire in play, while 3 overlord will tend to take all three activations as long as the stax player is taking very limited pain. Throwing karrthus into the mix doesn't alter that, does it?

If tangle wire is not on the table and you hit karrthus first, the stax player should still be dead from second activation.

This kind of shit almost never happens.  I cant remember a time where a stax player locked me out with tangle wires.

"..almost never happens.."

[AmbivalentDuck]

This kind of shit almost never happens.  I cant remember a time where a stax player locked me out with tangle wires.

The question isn't how much of a corner case it is...it's rare and we all know that.  The question is whether there's any real cost to Karrthus since he does something positive. 

[RecklessEmbermage]

What other match-up(s) are the dragons used for?

[voltron00x]

I won one game against Oath by hard-casting Karrthus, and almost won a second in a different event.  Also snatched back a Hellkite that was stolen with a Sower of Temptation.  I also don't think you ever want 3x of the same creature, even if you're not down w/ Karrthus... just play 1 Akroma and 2 dragons.  Otherwise you're needlessly exposing yourself to random losses from Echoing Truth or Extirpate.

Extirpate in particular worries me with this particular version of single-Iona Oath.  Its very popular in my area.

[Killane]

I'm really glad someone came up with a way to make Iona alone work. I was so focused on beating Vault that I forgot the old "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" maxim. I don't have any drains though. Do you think the list is playable without them, and if so, what would you put in that slot?

[vroman]

Im already running the deck wo drain, via duress. its doing really well. drain may be better, but if so, only very slightly.

re: karthus
so if Im boarding in extra creatures its bc I fear jester, right? so now I have 1 Iona, 2 hellkite and 1 karthus. so to play around tangle and kill in 2 turns, I need to hit in order: hellkite, karthus.
which will happen 16% of the time (50% chance get hellkite, out of [hell, hell, iona, karth], then 33% chance get karthus out of [hell, iona, karth] .50*.33=.165)
so In the rare instance of being kept down by tangle, this solves that about 1/6 of the time.

the extirpate argument makes some sense. I also dont like having opportunity to draw 4 dead cards, so my board is now
2 pernicious deed
2 mindbreak trap
1 hellkite
1 empyrial archangel
1 tezeret
1 echoing truth
1 chain vapor
1 repeal
1 oxidize
1 pithing needle
1 stripmine
1 tormod crypt
1 ravenous trap

[voltron00x]

Im already running the deck wo drain, via duress. its doing really well. drain may be better, but if so, only very slightly.

re: karthus
so if Im boarding in extra creatures its bc I fear jester, right? so now I have 1 Iona, 2 hellkite and 1 karthus. so to play around tangle and kill in 2 turns, I need to hit in order: hellkite, karthus.
which will happen 16% of the time (50% chance get hellkite, out of [hell, hell, iona, karth], then 33% chance get karthus out of [hell, iona, karth] .50*.33=.165)
so In the rare instance of being kept down by tangle, this solves that about 1/6 of the time.

the extirpate argument makes some sense. I also dont like having opportunity to draw 4 dead cards, so my board is now
2 pernicious deed
2 mindbreak trap
1 hellkite
1 empyrial archangel
1 tezeret
1 echoing truth
1 chain vapor
1 repeal
1 oxidize
1 pithing needle
1 stripmine
1 tormod crypt
1 ravenous trap

I was under the impression that the extra creatures were to solve the GY hate problem...

[SiegeX]

Here's a card that I thought up for the hermit blaster deck flying around not long ago and I think it might be worth trying here. The card is Wheel of Sun and Moon.  This card is extremely flexible in this deck, let me show why:

1) If you play it targeting yourself and then Oath with no creature left in the deck, you get to stack your deck in any order you want when Wheel's replacement effect puts all your Oath'd cards back in your library.  I'll let you guys think up best ways to stack the deck but I'll just throw this one out there: if you throw in a Demonic consultation and a tendrils, you can get up to 13 storm on the same turn that you oathed with a wheel out.

2) You're completely impervious to GY hate when this on you

3) If you play this targeting an opp running Ichorid early enough you'll get the GG

I think this might be an interesting change-up on games 2 or 3 in lieu of the yawg strategy (esp if he already saw it or expects it) and he boards in some yard hate.

By the way, in the rules forum we got clarification from Clariax that Timetwister recursion does *not* constitute a loop since each iteration is completely different from the rest.  However, you can't just keep doing this if you knowingly have no other wincon just to burn down the clock; you WILL get called for stalling if you choose to do so.  However, if you actually do have a wincon like Fire//Ice, you can't be called for stalling since you have a means to an end but you also can't shortcut and say "I Ice all your perms and then Fire you a billion times" precisely because we already established that twister recursion is not a loop.  This means that you will have to play it out as fast as you can and hope for the win before time is up.

[vroman]

the interaction wheel sun moon provides is good, and its cheap, true. problem is you have to resolve it from hand before your 2nd oath. the kros-rec plan just needs 5 mana on board and nothing particular in hand.

[mr.grim]

@jpfunk....
Not at all to be honest.In a lot of games I really value any duress effect in hand, even over force. I really dont see a lot of meddleing mage. My only creature fear would be welder,and needle takes care of that. Most of the time I love to see my opp drop a dude on the table,It makes a 2 card combo a one card win.
As for the life loss ill say like 10% of the games i play ....Games that start with orchard as my only land or games where they drop a bob or goyf and im not holdin oath. Also with the robots that are everywhere like inky or s.o.t.s.w the life race can get a bit tight.