Resurrect the decks of old! staisis/chronatog

[waffles]

I reciently tried to resurrect a few decks so i could start playing in vintage at my local card shop but found it wasnt up to snuff. i would like some help on this deck to make it compeditive, decklist is as follows.

Sands of Time/Equipose
Mana Sources  
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Black Lotus
Lands
        1 Adarkar Wastes
        1 Tolarian Academy
        1 Academy Ruins
        3 Polluted Delta
        4 Flooded Strand
        8 Island
        4 Tundra
        
Spells
        4 Sands of Time
        3 Taniwha
        4 Accumulated Knowledge
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Thirst for Knowledge
        1 Mystical Tutor
        4 Equipoise
        4 Enlightened Tutor
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain


I havent figured out a sideboard yet, my problem is i die by the time im able to go off which seems to be around turn 4 or 5.

[vassago]

It's hard for these savage beasts to compete in today's type1 metagame.  Mainly, is the speed of ALL of the decks leave these guys in the dust.  Any real critique to help these decks would completely change them. 

[waffles]

It's hard for these savage beasts to compete in today's type1 metagame.  Mainly, is the speed of ALL of the decks leave these guys in the dust.  Any real critique to help these decks would completely change them. 

I dont mind that much, as long as it works on the same principle, i think the sands deck has the best chance of the two, if i can slow them down enough i think i could pull it off or if i could speed it up just one turn i think it might work as well. Anyone know the best way to go about tighting up this deck? The changes ive made are in bold. Also i thought of adding balance, extract, paradox haze or duress to the mix not sure though. the sands deck works with equipose to phase out their stuff, and sands prevents them from getting it back by skipping the untap step.

Sands of Time/Equipose
Mana Sources 
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Black Lotus
Lands
        1 Tolarian Academy
        2 Hallowed Fountain
        3 Polluted Delta
        4 Flooded Strand
        8 Island
        4 Tundra
       
Spells
        4 Sands of Time
        2 Taniwha
        4 Accumulated Knowledge
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Thirst for Knowledge
        1 Mystical Tutor
        4 Equipoise
        4 Enlightened Tutor
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
        3 Stasis



Sideboard
        4 Chalice of the Void
        4 Swords to Plowshares
        4 Disenchant
        3 Arcane Laboratory

[Bill Copes]

I dont mind that much, as long as it works on the same principle

That's just the problem, unfortunately.  The principles and win conditions here are completely ineffective and outdated in today's (and this century's) vintage format.  I understand that it is hard to abandon the decks that you love to play for something modern and competitive.  I myself have given up an entire archetype based on the realization that it wasn't working for me any more.  You own all these cards, and have invested countless hours and dollars playing in tournaments only to finish mid-way through the rankings.  It's disheartening to start over, but sometimes it's necessary . . . if your goal is to win.  If you want to continue with what you have (and you have my utmost respect for doing so), then by all means, read no further.

Based on what you have now, you're aiming to play with a non-artifact based prison strategy.  I think you can achieve similar results to this with a different angle.  If you've read the tournament results forum, there is a mono-blue deck that placed well in a small tournament.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38897.0

6th: Tommy Kolowith
 
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Vendilian Clique
4 Repeal
4 Sower of Temptation
2 Jace Beltran
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Cryptic Command
4 Mana Drain
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force of Will
4 Ancestral Visions
3 Back to Basics
4 Remand
11 Island
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring

I'm not sure what cards you own, or what you can afford to acquire, but I think that this deck or one similar to it will ultimately fit your playing strategy (Control the opponent and their resources, then win at your leisure).

Another deck that you might enjoy, that could be reasonably competitive in Today's metagame:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37728.msg525007#msg525007

8. Marius Morger // Shay-Remora

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
3 Commandeer
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
1 Inkwell Leviathan
4 Mana Drain
4 Meditate
1 Merchant Scroll
4 Mystic Remora
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
2 Psychatog

Lands (16):
2 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea

Granted, this is a deck from a few months ago, but the overall principles and card choices are similar to what's rolling around currently.  You could easily make a mono-blue version of this list and still achieve positive results.

I hope this helps.  Good luck, and welcome back to vintage!

[John Jones]

Also, the reason that equipose/sands of time will not work that well anymore is because decks like ichorid and tps just don't really care about what ever you're doing becuase ichorid can still win under the combo and storm combo can just sit back and scuplt the perfect before they drop all their moxes and land. Decks like workshop would care if you got both pieces into play before they got a smokestack/tangle wire/spheres into play.

My advice if you wanted to try an enchantment stragety would be to think about what decks are currently being played

You have Ichorid, Tezz, Steel City, stax, oath, fish, storm combo decks,

To take a non artifact approach to prison

4x Back to basics
4x Bitterblossom
4x leyline of the void
4x Energy flux
4x Force of will
4x Archive Trap
4x Dark Ritual
4x Duress
1x Ancestral
1x Brainstorm
1x Ponder
1x Mystical
1x Tinker
1x Sphinx of pro red
1x Darkblast
1x Vamp
1x Demonic
1x Yawgmoths Will
1x Black lotus
1x jet
1x Sapphire
1x petal
Bunch of fetches and basics

Idk, this was a quick brainstorm but it could be good

EDIT: Just saw this http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=38733.0

[waffles]

Also, the reason that equipose/sands of time will not work that well anymore is because decks like ichorid and tps just don't really care about what ever you're doing becuase ichorid can still win under the combo and storm combo can just sit back and scuplt the perfect before they drop all their moxes and land. Decks like workshop would care if you got both pieces into play before they got a smokestack/tangle wire/spheres into play.

My advice if you wanted to try an enchantment stragety would be to think about what decks are currently being played

You have Ichorid, Tezz, Steel City, stax, oath, fish, storm combo decks

Well i should start with the reason i wanted to resurrect this deck. The reason being most people won't be running the hate for it, like they did back then, thus leading me to catch them off guard. One of the players there helped me to change it from what was then an extended deck, to the current decklist. but  to address those, i have answers for most of those decks arcane lab/mana maze for storm, and with ichorid find a way to have them come into play tapped like kismet/frozen aether, or deluge. Or use something like propaganda or at worse Web of Inertia, for oath chalice for 2 or pith/meddling for oath. I think it can be done, its just a matter of thinking outside of the conventional box. Another direction  i could take is just to migrate it to a vairiant  of chronostasis.

[John Jones]

Also, the reason that equipose/sands of time will not work that well anymore is because decks like ichorid and tps just don't really care about what ever you're doing becuase ichorid can still win under the combo and storm combo can just sit back and scuplt the perfect before they drop all their moxes and land. Decks like workshop would care if you got both pieces into play before they got a smokestack/tangle wire/spheres into play.

My advice if you wanted to try an enchantment stragety would be to think about what decks are currently being played

You have Ichorid, Tezz, Steel City, stax, oath, fish, storm combo decks

Well i should start with the reason i wanted to resurrect this deck. The reason being most people won't be running the hate for it, like they did back then, thus leading me to catch them off guard. One of the players there helped me to change it from what was then an extended deck, to the current decklist. but  to address those, i have answers for most of those decks arcane lab/mana maze for storm, and with ichorid find a way to have them come into play tapped like kismet/frozen aether, or deluge. Or use something like propaganda or at worse Web of Inertia, for oath chalice for 2 or pith/meddling for oath. I think it can be done, its just a matter of thinking outside of the conventional box. Another direction  i could take is just to migrate it to a vairiant  of chronostasis.

I don't know, it seems weak and slow for a vintage deck today

[waffles]

Also, the reason that equipose/sands of time will not work that well anymore is because decks like ichorid and tps just don't really care about what ever you're doing becuase ichorid can still win under the combo and storm combo can just sit back and scuplt the perfect before they drop all their moxes and land. Decks like workshop would care if you got both pieces into play before they got a smokestack/tangle wire/spheres into play.

My advice if you wanted to try an enchantment stragety would be to think about what decks are currently being played

You have Ichorid, Tezz, Steel City, stax, oath, fish, storm combo decks

Well i should start with the reason i wanted to resurrect this deck. The reason being most people won't be running the hate for it, like they did back then, thus leading me to catch them off guard. One of the players there helped me to change it from what was then an extended deck, to the current decklist. but  to address those, i have answers for most of those decks arcane lab/mana maze for storm, and with ichorid find a way to have them come into play tapped like kismet/frozen aether, or deluge. Or use something like propaganda or at worse Web of Inertia, for oath chalice for 2 or pith/meddling for oath. I think it can be done, its just a matter of thinking outside of the conventional box. Another direction  i could take is just to migrate it to a vairiant  of chronostasis.

I don't know, it seems weak and slow for a vintage deck today

I ways loved playing rogue, the challenge of making a deck that competes with the proven decks is fun. As for the report i did some match ups i changed it from the sands/equipose to stasis/chronatog it didnt too bad vs a MUD variant, still lost though i was missing the things that would have made a big difference for the matches. Feedback about the deck was i only slowed him down and if i could find the right cards the deck would work. Also i need to run more prison like things. He Suggested that i could add crucible of worlds/city to speed up mana generation. The decklist i ran was:

Mana Sources 
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Black Lotus
Lands
        1 Tolarian Academy
        1 Plains
        2 Polluted Delta
        4 Flooded Strand
        8 Island
        4 Tundra
       
Spells
        4 Chronatog
        1 Taniwha
        4 Accumulated Knowledge
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Thirst for Knowledge
        3 Howling Mine
        1 Equipoise
        4 Enlightened Tutor
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
        3 Stasis
        3 Anvil of Bogardan
        1 Meditation
        1 library of Leng

I'm going to add in another stasis and add kismet as well. Then drop taniwha, and equipose, or i could keep it in for the annoying things i dont have a disenchant for. I have a pool of cards that im looking at as prospects to this deck, aura of slience, by your suggestion energy flux, arcane lab, portcullis, chalice, null rod, land tax, daze, reset, mana tithe.  Any other suggestions would be welcomed. The tourney at the card shop i play at is small 10-25 people, with the same decks every week.

[John Jones]

I really think you shuold also run a tinker + big guy in your list as a just incase.

Also, if you have stasis lock does drawing cards with anvil/mine actually do anything?

[waffles]

I really think you shuold also run a tinker + big guy in your list as a just incase.

Also, if you have stasis lock does drawing cards with anvil/mine actually do anything?

Sphinx of the Steel Wind+ Tinker will cover that. Yes, it does, its my win condition. they will deck themselves from drawing that many cards and if i mainboard arcane lab that will prevent the bad things from happening. Yes i know its a free pass to say play out your deck but thats why i say ive got to have all the angles covered. I think Mystic Remora would be great in this as well, because it would still grant me cards while under my combo. But where to put it?

[potato]

My favorite thing to put in decks with Stasis is Root Maze. It's a lot cheaper than Kismet and the blue Kismet, and can contribute to virtually a hard lock with chronatog, not to mention also being an excellent hate card against a lot of the current field. Have you considered that?

[waffles]

My favorite thing to put in decks with Stasis is Root Maze. It's a lot cheaper than Kismet and the blue Kismet, and can contribute to virtually a hard lock with chronatog, not to mention also being an excellent hate card against a lot of the current field. Have you considered that?

yes, but root maze doesnt deal with creatures, but it does stop the artifact creatures. I get eaten by aggro decks, because im only running the '
togs and maybe the remora

[MirariKnight]

You can use Orb of Dreams with Stasis if you don't like Root Maze, and then stuff like Garuuk Wildspeaker and Quirion Ranger to untap your lands. Stuff that returns cards to your hand, like Daze and Gush might be good.
I think the best win condition for this deck is Jace. He is useful on his own in drawing cards, doesn't care if he's tapped, and mills them pretty quickly while drawing you cards.
Forsaken City is the perfect land to use with Stasis, just pitch your dead stuff to untap it.

[waffles]

You can use Orb of Dreams with Stasis if you don't like Root Maze, and then stuff like Garuuk Wildspeaker and Quirion Ranger to untap your lands. Stuff that returns cards to your hand, like Daze and Gush might be good.
I think the best win condition for this deck is Jace. He is useful on his own in drawing cards, doesn't care if he's tapped, and mills them pretty quickly while drawing you cards.
Forsaken City is the perfect land to use with Stasis, just pitch your dead stuff to untap it.

So do you think i should just drop the mines, because they are useless when tapped. I can use Reset(http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=201163) if it really comes down to it. Im having a problem also with reloading my hand, since im using the chronatog to skip my turns, thus skipping the upkeep on stasis. The orb is a great idea 

[John Jones]

To deal with creatures just run a few old men or some sowers or you can run tabernacle and maze of iths

[Bill Copes]

You can also run Propaganda -- it'll keep them off mana.

[John Jones]

You can also run evacuation. I also hear that card handles sphinxes and levithans pretty well.

[swawagon]

One of the best cards for Stasis is Gush.

Also the Planeswalkers - Garruk or Jace, with Stasis is solid.

Forsaken City too.

Thwart isn't even bad under Stasis.

[John Jones]

Thwart isn't even bad.

First: we will cut this statement off, thwart is terrible unless you're playing mental magic and all your lands all facedown cards are basics of all types.

I recommend running a u/g list utilizing Scryp Ranger and Quirion Ranger. That way, not only do you have a soft lock you also have a win condition and mana fixers

[potato]

Forsaken City is a popular way to pay for Stasis too, by the way.

[swawagon]

Thwart is great under Stasis... ? It's a counterspell for no mana that brings 3 tapped Islands back to your hand so you can replay them untapped to further pay the upkeep for Stasis.

I know this is different than the Chronoatog way of 'paying' the Stasis upkeep.

Below is a Stasis list that is pretty fun and surprisingly effective (at times), but can be kind of clunky.

4 Stasis
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Misdirection
1 Thwart
1 Gush
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Daze
4 Jace
1 Chain of Vapor

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Garruk

4 Forsaken City
8 Islands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald

[waffles]

the suggesttions have been great. here is the next evolution of this deck.

Mana Sources  
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Black Lotus
Lands
        1 Tolarian Academy
        1 Plains
        2 Polluted Delta
        4 Flooded Strand
        8 Island
        4 Tundra
        4 Forsaken City
        4 Glacial Chasm

Spells
        4 Chronatog
        4 Mystic Remora
        4 Accumulated Knowledge
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Thirst for Knowledge
        3 Howling Mine
        4 Enlightened Tutor
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
        4 Stasis
        3 Anvil of Bogardan
        1 Meditation
        1 Gush
        4 Orb of Dreams


I know its 74 cards, my win condition is to draw them out. So i dont want to take a turn, but having a back up plan is also not a bad idea.Because attacking is not really an option with stasis out and tinker+ sphinx is a bit awkward with so many counters on the board. Also with the remora and stasis, and the caism taking a turn is a really bad idea. So what should i cut? I thought about using words of wind to bounce stasis back to my hand, with a draw card ability. Two other things that bug me are not having Arcane Lab, and dealing with bounce. but it occured to me that i could use Energy Field for negating damage, instead of Glacial Chasm

[potato]

Maybe you should add some decent-size creatures with vigilance to give the option of just dropping a dude + a stasis and swinging a couple times?

Are there any robots with vigilance to tinker out?

[RecklessEmbermage]

I'd shave the deck down to orb of dreams + stasis (+ chronatog) and effective ways to draw into and protect the combo.

Anvil of bogardan, howling mine and glacial chasm seem superfluous. Energy field is good, but has dissynergy with too many of your cards. Most notably forsaken city, which probably is more important to the deck than you realize, if you haven't played with it before.

I'd try making the maindeck as simple as possible:

4 orb of dreams
4 stasis
2 chronatog

4 ancestral vision
3 mystic remora
1 brainstorm
1 recall
1 gush

4 force of will
4 manadrain
4 daze
1 echoing truth
1 chain of vapor (though echoing truth is the easy choice, I'd give chain of vapor a shot. Timing it right could make it really hard for the opponent to choose a target and the option to eot stasis and your opponent's trouble permanent for a big turn in the late-game seems promising).

1 mox sapphire
1 lotus
1 sol ring
1 lotus petal

4 wasteland
1 strip mine
12 island
4 forsaken city
1 library (not terribly strong in this list, but probably worth a slot. You could always pitch it to forsaken city.)

List updated, taking John Jones's comments into consideration. I cut white (enlightened), added wastelands, added a bit more draw (-1 remora, +4 visions, +1 brainstorm) and upped the
land count from 21 to 22.

EDIT: Fetchlands are not worth it with orb of dreams and no splash. They became islands.

[John Jones]

CUT REMORA

There shouldn't be any white in this deck especially if you're only running it for 3x enlightened. You really don't need them for a stasis deck and if you wanted to go the tutor route, just play black.

If you really want to play white, then where is balance, wheres swords/path?

Also I would suggest running 1 chain and 1 echoing that way you don't randomly get boned by chalice.

If you run drain you also run petal.

But that list seems slow and clunky.

[RecklessEmbermage]

CUT REMORA

There shouldn't be any white in this deck especially if you're only running it for 3x enlightened. You really don't need them for a stasis deck and if you wanted to go the tutor route, just play black.

If you really want to play white, then where is balance, wheres swords/path?

Also I would suggest running 1 chain and 1 echoing that way you don't randomly get boned by chalice.

If you run drain you also run petal.

But that list seems slow and clunky.

Why would you want to cut remora? It seems like a near perfect fit for the deck. It either slows the opponent down a bit or gives you a bit of CA. When it's drawn in the late game, pitch it to fow or city.

You're probably right about the enlightened tutors. The plains could become a wasteland package. I think ancestral vision is a good fit in those slots.

Good call on the bounce spells.

I'll cut propaganda (it has no business being in the main and probably not in the deck at all) for the petal, add a brainstorm and cut white.

How on earth is this deck supposed to not be slow and clunky?

[John Jones]

You know ancestral vision seems pretty good but the only problem with it is you could randomly run into misdirection. I really think Tinker +Sphinx should be here.

Idk, remora in my opinion has always been bad for me but if you like it keep it.

[potato]

As long as you're skipping turns, might it be worthwhile to put Time Vault and a Magosi, The Waterveil?

[waffles]

Most notably forsaken city, which probably is more important to the deck than you realize, if you haven't played with it before.

Not important if you skip turns with the tog

[RecklessEmbermage]

Most notably forsaken city, which probably is more important to the deck than you realize, if you haven't played with it before.

Not important if you skip turns with the tog

Don't be fooled. You start skipping turns once you have orb of dreams and stasis in play, which demands effort on your part.

No card in the deck matters once you've won.