[Discussion] Goblins

[conboy31]

Any new developments with goblins?
I went ahead and built a list because the deck does not use many cards that are used in other decks.  Might as well have a spare vintage deck to play against.

I have been trying a Rb list with a mild instigator theme.  The main problem has been trying to balance the mana sources, particularily being able to consistently hit double R.  As of now I only can squeeze in 3 wastelands because of how crucial the colored sources have been.  The other observation has been the absolute glut at the 3 mana spot, yet the bombiness of the goblins when things fall in line.  

I normally play oath and was pondering on how goblins could have 4 weirdings and 4 stingscourgers post board.  That could be quite the pain.
The plus side for goblins is that over 15 years enough of them have been printed that severe metagame adaptions can be implemented to the tribe.
Blue adds quite a bit of power to the deck, but it seems tough to accept the 3 color manabase.  

[AmbivalentDuck]

Any new developments with goblins?

The first post in this thread always has my most up-to-date list.

I have been trying a Rb list with a mild instigator theme.  The main problem has been trying to balance the mana sources, particularily being able to consistently hit double R.  As of now I only can squeeze in 3 wastelands because of how crucial the colored sources have been.  The other observation has been the absolute glut at the 3 mana spot, yet the bombiness of the goblins when things fall in line.

Once you've decided to run Instigator, it has to be a focus of your deck.  People who've had success with Instigator builds have posted here.  Plan A in almost every build is to Earwig Squad away all of your opponent's wincons.  If you can't, the goal is to find and drop Kiki Jiki burying your opponent in card advantage and simply overrunning them.  As far as I'm aware, competitive builds only run Matron and Earwig Squad in the 3cc slot.

I normally play oath and was pondering on how goblins could have 4 weirdings and 4 stingscourgers post board.  That could be quite the pain.

Not really, I'd have a hand full of dead cards and you'd just kill with Vault-Key.  Half of the reason I can run Weirding main is that it can give me 2 1/1 hasty gobs to pump Piledriver or sneak in that last point of damage.  Out of the sideboard,  Gilded Drake is far more disruptive since neither of us is particularly strong against Iona on black.

Blue adds quite a bit of power to the deck, but it seems tough to accept the 3 color manabase.

We run 7 fetches and only two blue cards, it's not a big deal.  In Instigator gobs (where you have to cut mana for Spirit Guides and Instigators), it might be more of an issue.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Current build updated.  Green is in over blue, elephant oath is just too commonplace to take a 30%-ish matchup.

[policehq]

Current build updated.  Green is in over blue, elephant oath is just too commonplace to take a 30%-ish matchup.

2 Seal of Primordium can't possibly make that much of a difference. Why are you still insistent on capping opponents when MUD, Oath, Noble Fish, and Dredge can ignore it?

You've made a couple of posts about how this treatment of Goblins is under-represented based on its showings, but I think we can all safely say your list hasn't performed at all lately. Rob Connolly consistently places low in his tournaments (as if his placing high in >15 person tournaments was significant enough for this list), and the last list to place well in a larger tournament was R/G.

[Delha]

Current build updated.  Green is in over blue, elephant oath is just too commonplace to take a 30%-ish matchup.

2 Seal of Primordium can't possibly make that much of a difference. Why are you still insistent on capping opponents when MUD, Oath, Noble Fish, and Dredge can ignore it?

I agree that capping feels like more trouble than it's worth. I think that choosing an entirely different path is probably easier than making updating this particular one.

That said, if we're dead set on Earwigs, Seals should make a world of difference against Oath. Landing Seal early forces them to hold back Oath until they can dig up an extra copy or an answer. That buys you time to can cap them for Vault, Iona, and DSC. Trying to win through Jace/Tezz is a bad idea against aggro, and the Elephant suddenly needs to nuke it's own board, since the last thing you want to give aggro is nine more power.

[Prospero]

Here's a list that fought through Oath, Tezz, Shops and Dredge:

3rd – Corey Mann
Goblins

1 Stingscourger
2 Warren Weirding
3 Null Rod
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
1 Mogg Marshall
2 Artifact Mutation
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
5 Mountain
2 Badlands
2 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire

SB:
4 Thoughtseize
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Extirpate
3 Ravenous Trap
3 Krosan Grip


http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40540.0

Still think this is the optimal build, for the NY/NJ/PA metagame at least.

[policehq]

Here's a list that fought through Oath, Tezz, Shops and Dredge:

3rd – Corey Mann
Goblins

1 Stingscourger
2 Warren Weirding
3 Null Rod
3 Gempalm Incinerator
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Lackey
2 Siege-Gang Commander
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
1 Goblin Tinkerer
1 Tin-Street Hooligan
1 Mogg Marshall
2 Artifact Mutation
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
5 Mountain
2 Badlands
2 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire

SB:
4 Thoughtseize
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Extirpate
3 Ravenous Trap
3 Krosan Grip


http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=40540.0

Still think this is the optimal build, for the NY/NJ/PA metagame at least.

This is the list to which I referred earlier; it does have black but no Earwig Squads.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Why are you still insistent on capping opponents when MUD, Oath, Noble Fish, and Dredge can ignore it?

Dredge most definitely does NOT ignore capping.  You can read instances in my tourney reports where I capped Bridges or Narcomoebas and the game ended without seeing any dedicated hate.  Remember Extirpate?  Turns out that a similar effect on a 5/3 body isn't terrible.

Noble Fish similarly cannot ignore the butt and the loss of 3 Goyfs.  Sorry, it just can't.   And we just don't lose to Noble Fish.  Ever.  Once upon a time I lost to Knight of the Reliquary in a tournament.  You can ask Mike Hajduk, the Noble Fish player I drew into my Xtreme Games top8 with me: we played a bunch of games just to see if Max and I had been testing the matchup wrong...nope.  Noble Fish can easily go 10+ games against us without getting close to a win.

MUD leans heavy on finding its critters against me.  If I can cap away 3 critters, I'm swinging with Vandal and/or Lackey + Earwig putting them on a clock and either clearing their lock pieces are dropping free permanents.   Again, please look at my tournament reports: I usually cap their Lodestones.  In more recent builds, I'd hit Karn instead.

Oath is the closest to "ignoring" Cap.  You take 2 critters and Time Vault, leaving Iona (if they have Sphinx) or DSC (if they don't) since you can race them.  Yes, that leaves a lot of their strategy intact.  It's a bad matchup and Ancestral/Time Walk don't really shore it up.  Gilded Drake was cute, but you have to resolve it AFTER they Oath meaning that they can easily have Drain mana up.  By contrast, just dropping a Seal of Primordium means that they can't drop Oath or Time Vault productively in most situations.

but I think we can all safely say your list hasn't performed at all lately. Rob Connolly consistently places low in his tournaments (as if his placing high in >15 person tournaments was significant enough for this list), and the last list to place well in a larger tournament was R/G.

Neither Max nor I has played in a few months.  He has a gorgeous new girlfriend and I've been bogged down with family and work.  Ie. I'll be missing the tourney at Xtreme Games this weekend because my fiancee's parents are in town.  Frankly, I expect I'd do better than break even if I attended because I've never done worse than that at any vintage tournament ever.

Edit: It's next weekend, I'll try to attend that tourney.

[AmbivalentDuck]

The more I look at Mann's list, the more I think he simply lucked out.  He has six turn 1 plays if you count the Mox and Lotus.  The result is that he has to do something deeply relevant on turn 2 and it can't be countered.  Ie. If he fluffs turn 1, and he often will, he will have played two non-land cards on turn 3.   It gets worse, his "ideal" turn 3 play is a Warchief which should allow him to dump his hand on turn 4 and turn goblins sideways to kill.  This puts his critical turn at an abysmal 4 or 5 without a Lackey in his opener.  He completely omits tutoring, even though Demonic Consultation at the very least appears to be an oversight.

Compare this to my build with a load of fast mana, 8 1cc goblins, potentially game-ending turn 2 plays, and heavy tutoring.  I sacrifice most of the Piledriver beats plan in order to get Earwig Squad online early and often.  It makes no sense commit your whole deck to a plan of attack that begs you to over-commit and drop one threat each turn in the critical early turns especially with Drains making a comeback.

He bet the farm on Lackey and won, but that doesn't mean that it's sane or wise.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

The more I look at Mann's list, the more I think he simply lucked out.  He has six turn 1 plays if you count the Mox and Lotus.  The result is that he has to do something deeply relevant on turn 2 and it can't be countered.  Ie. If he fluffs turn 1, and he often will, he will have played two non-land cards on turn 3.   It gets worse, his "ideal" turn 3 play is a Warchief which should allow him to dump his hand on turn 4 and turn goblins sideways to kill.  This puts his critical turn at an abysmal 4 or 5 without a Lackey in his opener.  He completely omits tutoring, even though Demonic Consultation at the very least appears to be an oversight.

Compare this to my build with a load of fast mana, 8 1cc goblins, potentially game-ending turn 2 plays, and heavy tutoring.  I sacrifice most of the Piledriver beats plan in order to get Earwig Squad online early and often.  It makes no sense commit your whole deck to a plan of attack that begs you to over-commit and drop one threat each turn in the critical early turns especially with Drains making a comeback.

He bet the farm on Lackey and won, but that doesn't mean that it's sane or wise.

I don't see how someone who consistently t8s with goblins (when he is playing t1) can get so lucky so often. In testing against goblins, I always felt like earwig squad just led to the drain opponent blowing them out with a drain into broken spells.

[Prospero]

The more I look at Mann's list, the more I think he simply lucked out.  He has six turn 1 plays if you count the Mox and Lotus.  The result is that he has to do something deeply relevant on turn 2 and it can't be countered.  Ie. If he fluffs turn 1, and he often will, he will have played two non-land cards on turn 3.   It gets worse, his "ideal" turn 3 play is a Warchief which should allow him to dump his hand on turn 4 and turn goblins sideways to kill.  This puts his critical turn at an abysmal 4 or 5 without a Lackey in his opener.  He completely omits tutoring, even though Demonic Consultation at the very least appears to be an oversight.

Compare this to my build with a load of fast mana, 8 1cc goblins, potentially game-ending turn 2 plays, and heavy tutoring.  I sacrifice most of the Piledriver beats plan in order to get Earwig Squad online early and often.  It makes no sense commit your whole deck to a plan of attack that begs you to over-commit and drop one threat each turn in the critical early turns especially with Drains making a comeback.

He bet the farm on Lackey and won, but that doesn't mean that it's sane or wise.

I really don't understand how consistent results with his deck warrant this response.  He's one of the best players I know, he has Q'd for PT's in the past, has made 15 PTQ top 8's running aggressive style decks, won power at my original tournaments on the Island in '04 and has won power since then at Vintage tournaments.  Saying that he 'lucked out' implies that the list is inferior or that his conception of the metagame is inferior. 

But results don't lie, and he has put them up.  So where's the debate here?

[AmbivalentDuck]

The debate is essentially Siege-Gang Commander vs a spell he can actually play on turn 1.  Ie. Vampiric Tutor for Black Lotus/Null Rod/Lackey.  Or play Lackey and then upkeep tutor for the goblin he'd most like to drop off it.

But results don't lie, and he has put them up.  So where's the debate here?

Results don't lie.  He has stupid win%'s against Fish, Dredge, and Stax just like we do.  I'm saying that he's completely suboptimal vs anything with a fast clock.

Also, I'm very tired of this bizarre TMD focus on "results."  Once you're in the top8 (and with that many blowout matches you will be above 50% of the time), the odds of winning with 40% against the field are .4^3 -> ~6.5%.  With 60% .6^3 -> ~22%.  Even as a complete blowout against the field, you're only 22%; whereas even as a complete loser one in the 20 times you top8, you'll win.

As another way of looking at it, Corey has taken a very legacy approach: so what if he loses game 1 against Drains and combo every time he doesn't resolve a turn 1 Lackey?  He boards in his turn 1 plays and is apparently skillful enough with Trapping and Thoughtseizing to get to turn 4.  That or it hasn't mattered.  Instead of the longstanding vintage tactic of bringing in tutoring to deal with the corner cases, he uses the legacy tactic of switching out 10+ cards for a single matchup.

Saying that he 'lucked out' implies that the list is inferior or that his conception of the metagame is inferior.

I'm 99% certain that omitting Demonic Consultation from goblins (when the manabase already supports it) is like leaving Demonic Tutor out of Drains.  It's an instant speed Demonic Tutor for .  That's every kind of broken if only because it's an extra copy of each of your sideboard cards, Wasteland, and (relevant in his build) Piledriver/Warchief.

[chalywong]

Looking to do a little thread revival since this thread really died down as of late.  Here's my current list which is based mostly off Corey's list although not without changes of my own.

main deck 60 cards
4x bloodstained mire
2x red fetch of choice
4x badlands
2x taiga
4x mountain
4x wasteland
1x strip mine

1x black lotus
1x mox ruby

4x thoughtseize
3x null rod
2x warren weirding

4x goblin lackey
4x goblin piledriver
4x goblin matron
4x goblin warchief
4x goblin ringleader
2x earwig squad
2x gempalm incinerator
1x mogg war marshal
1x goblin tinkerer
1x tin street hooligan
1x stingscourger

sideboard:
4x leyline of the void
2x extirpate
3x shattering spree
3x mindbreak trap
3x krosan grip/nature's claim

I decided to main deck the thoughtsiezes to give added disruption in g1 and allows me to see what deck they are playing.  With this build its very easy to multitask your disruption and your win condition.  I am not claiming to be a vintage expert since I've just recently entered the format but I like my match ups with the main meta contenders.  Oath seems the hardest to beat but the combo of null rods, weirdings, stingscourgers, thoughtsiezes, earwigs and artifact hate makes the game more interactive.  Playing goblins makes you feel outmatched sometimes but once you realize that with the proper amount of disruption in the right places gives the top decks absolute nightmares.  Unlike most of the combo decks in the format, this goblin deck has a lot of disruption from many angles instead 1 or 2 "hoser" cards which adds a definite advantage.  I am open to any criticism and looking forward to make this thread a little more friendly and beneficial to the readers, instead of arguments over which is the "better" build.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I don't have much to say about the maindeck, but I'll quickly repeat that I'm almost 100% sure that leaving out Demonic Consultation and Vampiric Tutor is a mistake.  They're both restricted for a reason.  Demonic Tutor probably also belongs if only because  in the worst case scenario it's a Cabal Ritual for RRR.   I think Wort deserves a slot (and most legacy builds agree), but that's your call.

[chalywong]

I guess you can cut ringleader 2,3,4 for vamp tutor, demonic consultation and demonic tutor. The goblin count is already insanely high and can definitely help out finding hate cards early game.  I'm most likely going to be trying out this strategy tonight, so I'll post some results later.

[RecklessEmbermage]

I guess you can cut ringleader 2,3,4 for vamp tutor, demonic consultation and demonic tutor. The goblin count is already insanely high and can definitely help out finding hate cards early game.  I'm most likely going to be trying out this strategy tonight, so I'll post some results later.

Cutting ringleaders seems sketchy. Atleast more than one. You will need that CA in longer games and they are one of the main ways of finding earwigs. From that list, I'd rather cut war marshal and tinkerer, as they look a bit out of sync with an otherwise aggressive build. In my limited experience, demonic consultation is the only one of the tutors that is a must-include anyway. Spending mana with no immediate effect is not great with this deck, but consultation only costs B and is on an entirely different power level compared to vampiric.

To keep your goblin count high also after boarding, I'd make room for more hooligans over shattering sprees. They have dissynergy with the warchiefs, except against spheres, but are powerful enough generally that I can't see why you choose spree over them. Goblin vandal is also a fine alternative, if you want more relevant one-drops (important for turn 2 prowl).

[chalywong]

Taking the advice and doing further thinking i figure to play something like this

4x lackey
4x piledriver
4x matron
4x warchief
4x ringleader
2x earwig squad
2x stingscourger
1x tin street hooligan
1x gempalm incinerator
2x warren weirding

1x demonic tutor
1x demonic consultation
4x thoughtseize
3x null rod
1x mox ruby
1x black lotus

4x badlands
2x taiga
6x red fetch
4x mountain
4x wasteland
1x strip mine

board:
1x goblin tinkerer
2x shattering spree
2x nature's claim
1x krosan grip
2x extirpate
4x leyline of the void
3x mindbreak trap


Sideboard is rough at the moment. numbers need to be changed but the general idea is there.  Cut a few gempalm because they are signifigantly worse without siege gang or war marshal. Stingscourger now has added value against oath players turning to show and tell (just bounce the dude they flash in).  Any advice/criticisms always welcome, thanks for the input.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Just a quick post as a framework for thinking about goblins.  We run 3 accelerants and those accelerants define their builds: Moxen, Warchief, and Instigator.  They don't overlap, they have different overall strategies, and they have different critical turns.

Moxen:
With 4-5 Moxen, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Lotus Petal, and Black Lotus, I can expect to drop an Earwig Squad on turn 2.  I can also safely lock down a Mountain on Vandal without costing myself real tempo.  Since I have the mana to drop an Earwig Squad every turn + do something else as early as turn 4-5, I also run Wort.  That said, I don't get hasty dudes and I really need to first stop the opponent from winning.  Critical turn is really 2 since I can usually have an answer to whatever I'm facing then.

Instigator:
4 Lackey, 4 Instigator, and fast mana.  Goal is to drop an Earwig vs combo OR simply itself combo out against aggro and control.  Folds to blockers, turn 1 FoW, and faster decks.  Critical turn is usually 3 since you have to find and put together a three-part combo and Instigator can only drop two pieces each turn. 

Warchief:
"Real" acceleration is Lackeys and Warchiefs.   Smokes fish, dies horribly to anything with a clock unless they get Lackey in the opening grip.  This variant is essentially mana-limited until it drops and prays to resolve Warchief on turn 3.  After that, it explodes turn 4 and generally kills.  Critical turn 4.

[policehq]

Just a quick post as a framework for thinking about goblins.  We run 3 accelerants and those accelerants define their builds: Moxen, Warchief, and Instigator.  They don't overlap, they have different overall strategies, and they have different critical turns.

Moxen:
With 4-5 Moxen, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Lotus Petal, and Black Lotus, I can expect to drop an Earwig Squad on turn 2.  I can also safely lock down a Mountain on Vandal without costing myself real tempo.  Since I have the mana to drop an Earwig Squad every turn + do something else as early as turn 4-5, I also run Wort.  That said, I don't get hasty dudes and I really need to first stop the opponent from winning.  Critical turn is really 2 since I can usually have an answer to whatever I'm facing then.

Instigator:
4 Lackey, 4 Instigator, and fast mana.  Goal is to drop an Earwig vs combo OR simply itself combo out against aggro and control.  Folds to blockers, turn 1 FoW, and faster decks.  Critical turn is usually 3 since you have to find and put together a three-part combo and Instigator can only drop two pieces each turn.  

Warchief:
"Real" acceleration is Lackeys and Warchiefs.   Smokes fish, dies horribly to anything with a clock unless they get Lackey in the opening grip.  This variant is essentially mana-limited until it drops and prays to resolve Warchief on turn 3.  After that, it explodes turn 4 and generally kills.  Critical turn 4.

Okay, and your tournament results lately? Has the list with the super early critical turn and the amazingly consistent Earwig Squads that are relevant against the metagame performed well this summer?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Okay, and your tournament results lately?

I won the EDH tournament at my local store yesterday!

Has the list with the super early critical turn and the amazingly consistent Earwig Squads that are relevant against the metagame performed well this summer?

You're being generically critical without actually addressing my post.  Instead, you're attacking how I choose to spend my weekends.  Not cool.

If you think I'm wrong, I'm happy to demonstrate the deck to you over MWS or cockatrice on the condition that I get to post the logs here.  If we use cockatrice, all of your friends can watch.    If I was in your position, I'd back down.  As little as you think of goblins, most of the people here think less of it.  If you lose to me...which even if you think it's 60/40 you've got a decent shot of having the losing record after 8-10 matches...the people who think like you do will respect you considerably less.

[M.Solymossy]

If you think I'm wrong, I'm happy to demonstrate the deck to you over MWS or cockatrice on the condition that I get to post the logs here.  If we use cockatrice, all of your friends can watch.    If I was in your position, I'd back down.  As little as you think of goblins, most of the people here think less of it.  If you lose to me...which even if you think it's 60/40 you've got a decent shot of having the losing record after 8-10 matches...the people who think like you do will respect you considerably less.

I tend to agree with PoliceHQ.  Although he's not too high on my list of Favorite TMDers ever (no offense), I do feel that Goblins is awful in the metagame.  You're just so hardstruck on it an unwilling to change to something different.    I seem to recall you not doing so well with goblins at the last xtreme event you were at.  Actually, I don't seem to recall you ever doing well / winning with it.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Yeah, top8-ing is pretty terrible. 

Soly, I'll make you the same offer I made PoliceHQ.

If you think I'm wrong, I'm happy to demonstrate the deck to you over MWS or cockatrice on the condition that I get to post the logs here.  If we use cockatrice, all of your friends can watch.    If I was in your position, I'd back down.  As little as you think of goblins, most of the people here think less of it.  If you lose to me...which even if you think it's 60/40 you've got a decent shot of having the losing record after 8-10 matches...the people who think like you do will respect you considerably less.

[M.Solymossy]

Yeah, top8-ing is pretty terrible. 

Soly, I'll make you the same offer I made PoliceHQ.

If you think I'm wrong, I'm happy to demonstrate the deck to you over MWS or cockatrice on the condition that I get to post the logs here.  If we use cockatrice, all of your friends can watch.    If I was in your position, I'd back down.  As little as you think of goblins, most of the people here think less of it.  If you lose to me...which even if you think it's 60/40 you've got a decent shot of having the losing record after 8-10 matches...the people who think like you do will respect you considerably less.

lol I don't need to get into a "bigger dick" contest.   My magic skills have been proven in many events, including Vintage champs 2008, the ICBM Open both days the Steel City tournament, and Traviscon 2008 as well.   Besides, I'd rather do the Pierce Challenge of $20 a game against you @ Gencon.

  I was just pointing out that your logic is flawed because you have an unhealthy obsession with Goblins.  I don't see how you can ever realistically beat combo, because even though you have a huge hardon for Earwig Squad you just fold when they force of will it.

Also, more people have been playing Ad Naseum.  Good luck against that deck.   

[policehq]

Okay, and your tournament results lately?

I won the EDH tournament at my local store yesterday!

Has the list with the super early critical turn and the amazingly consistent Earwig Squads that are relevant against the metagame performed well this summer?

You're being generically critical without actually addressing my post.  Instead, you're attacking how I choose to spend my weekends.  Not cool.

If you think I'm wrong, I'm happy to demonstrate the deck to you over MWS or cockatrice on the condition that I get to post the logs here.  If we use cockatrice, all of your friends can watch.    If I was in your position, I'd back down.  As little as you think of goblins, most of the people here think less of it.  If you lose to me...which even if you think it's 60/40 you've got a decent shot of having the losing record after 8-10 matches...the people who think like you do will respect you considerably less.

Oh good grief. Keep your belt on. My argument is that your pet deck would not consistently perform well in tournaments, and your challenge is irrelevant.

I tend to agree with PoliceHQ.  Although he's not too high on my list of Favorite TMDers ever (no offense), I do feel that Goblins is awful in the metagame. 

Sorry I didn't support your hostility to a new poster however many years ago. Shake it off; it's time to move on. That's a good step in the right direction.

OP - you taint many threads with your discussion of Goblins with things like "we've been playing [card x] in Goblins" (Bitter Ordeal thread), "[spoiled card z] isn't worth the space in Goblins because we'd rather be winning with Earwig Squad instead of playing this," or "we've been posting a 60/40 matchup against [better deck y]" as if you were on some team that has developed this tournament-level deck. You aren't. It hasn't. I never trust any poster or thread talking about how great their deck is yet occasionally going through wild swings of up to two additional colors and up to 16 cards different at a time. Finely tuned, tested lists go through minute changes of a few cards, sometimes only between maindeck and sideboard. You're just talking theory and MWS results, so at the very least, limit it to just this thread.

[chalywong]

Why are we talking about this stupid stuff when we can actually talk about something relevant like goblins.  I don't care if you if think its terrible in the meta.  Personally I dont mind winning games and matches with a deck that people call "bad".  Can we please keep this discussion to goblins instead of an e-peen contest about what deck beats what.

[TheBrassMan]

I know this is a controversial topic, but this thread is reaching some dangerous territory.  There's no problem with expressing dislike for a deck, but a lot of the thread is moving away from "addressing concerns and arguments" and towards personal attacks, from both sides.  Try to get back to goblin-specific discussion.

[chalywong]

I'm interested in going down the route of ultra-disruption, similar to the dark times deck.  A rough idea I have drawn up

4x badlands
4x bloodstained mire
3x red fetches
4x wasteland
1x strip mine
4x mountain
1x swamp
4x lackey
4x piledriver
4x warchief
4x matron
4x earwig squad
2x vexxing shusher
2x stingscourger
4x chalice of the void
3x null rod
4x thought seize
3x warren weirding
1x demonic consultation

[AmbivalentDuck]

Since you used the phrase "ultra-disruption," I'm going to suggest an approach with more blue and better answers to the format's dominant decks.  First and foremost, GOBLIN VANDAL.  Eating a Smokestack/Crucible/Sphere every turn is good last I checked.  The ability to eat random Moxen isn't terrible.  The reality is that without enough guaranteed turn 1 drop dorks, you can't guarantee a turn 2 Earwig even if you have the moxen and he's in your hand.  On the subject of Moxen, Chalice@0 is only good on the play.  That's why you see so few Chalices outside of Stax: a deck that can easily play Chalice@1 or 2 with no cost to itself.

Next item, your deck wants a Black Lotus, Mox Jet, and Mox Ruby. Think of it as the ability to both Thoughtseize and Lackey turn 1.  Or alternatively, turn 1 Null Rod.  Yes, you want these cards even with Null Rod.  I think Goblins wants to be almost fully powered so that you can build board position despite countermagic.  This also possible enables your own countermagic.  See below.

You have to be able to beat Ichorid and nowadays, they're resilient to a single Waste/Strip.  Because you're running so much artifact control and still running Warchief and Piledriver, you won't be able to stall or race them.  And 6-8 cards out of your sideboard IS unacceptable.  Goblins is in a unique position now that they've cut Leyline of the Void from their maindecks: if they don't find their usually singleton Darkblast, Sharpshooter can actually keep the board clean and then ping one of your dorks in response to Bridge triggers.  We also toss in Mogg Fanatics for this purpose: if you sac during their upkeep, they lose a critter and lose their Bridges *first*

Last item: Bitter Ordeal gets you "cheap" kills against the Tez decks that many of the format's strongest players favor.  Gravestorm 3 means that they have to get a wincon in hand and/or counter Ordeal twice.  You only need to crack a Wasteland, or a fetch + Lotus Petal.  Or even Mogg Fanatic one of the Dark Confidants that they're starting to run again.

Anyway, here's what I would run if "ultra-disruption" was my goal.

Lands
    4 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine
    4 Badlands
    3 Volcanic Island
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    4 Wooded Foothills

Creatures
    4 Goblin Lackey
    2 Mogg Fanatic   
    2 Gempalm Incinerator
    2 Goblin Vandal
    1 Goblin Piledriver
    1 Goblin Tinkerer
    1 Goblin Sharpshooter
    4 Goblin Matron
    1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
    4 Earwig Squad

Spells
    1 Bitter Ordeal (Amazing tutor target.  Tez is coming back and only runs two "real" wincons main.)
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Time Walk
    4 Spell Pierce/Spell Snare/Mindbreak Trap (Dead slots or the control piece we need?  Spell Pierce certainly helps massively against combo.  Mindbreak Trap answers the late game top-decked "Oops, I win." )
    2 Warren Weirding
    1 Demonic Consultation
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor

    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Ruby
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Mana Crypt
    1 Sol Ring

Sideboard
SB: 1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
SB: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 3 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 3 Yixlid Jailer
SB: 1 Bitter Ordeal
SB: 2 Energy Flux
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Gilded Drake

[BC]

Why in the world would you ever run Energy Flux and Hurkyll's Recall in a Goblin deck?  That's just terrible.  It's called Shattering Spree.  Look it up.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Why in the world would you ever run Energy Flux and Hurkyll's Recall in a Goblin deck?  That's just terrible.  It's called Shattering Spree.  Look it up.

In a nutshell, I don't want to add even more vulnerability to Chalice @ 1.  Also, mainphase mana isn't easy to come by, particularly AFTER they've established their board enough to have a reason to replicate.  Energy Flux comes down before they establish a lock and prevents it from ever happening.

Hurkyl's Recall is a touch contentious and I'd certainly entertain more Vandals/Sprees/Viashino Heretics/etc instead.